Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

SinNombre

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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54573356

A man wielding a large knife is reported to have attacked the teacher in a street, cutting off his head. The attacker then ran off, but local police alerted by the public were quickly at the scene in the nearby area of Éragny.

According to Le Monde newspaper, the victim, a teacher of history and geography, had been talking in class about freedom of expression in connection with the Muhammad cartoons.
The cartoons were published by the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, which was subjected to a deadly attack in 2015.
A trial is under way in Paris of alleged accomplices in that attack in which 12 people were killed.

Three weeks ago, a Pakistani man attacked and wounded two people outside the former offices of the magazine.


As the world gets increasingly polarized, this is a cultural war steadily bubbling up. Not sure if there are any solutions.
 

horsechoker

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The blame goes to the people who radicalised this man who believed that cutting off another man's head was just.

Whether it be preachers in real life or online propaganda, a portion of the population susceptible to it. This is the same for Christianity, Far-Right and Far-Left radicalisation.
 

Gehrman

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I think this may as well be continued in this thread.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cha...l-caricatures-of-the-prophet-mohammed.457246/

I think at this point we are all fatigued about the recurrence of this cycle of violence surrounding the cartoons. The whole thing erupted originally while i was in college in Denmark when Jyllands Posten printed them and we were shown all the cartoons and had a large debate about it. I couldn't fathom how absurd it was and still is. Im not sure in 2020 we'd have as an open discussion after all that has happened since.
 

RedDevil@84

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Da feck is this.

Working against radicalization needs lot of effort. It needs to create a consensus and work with religious heads, families and many others to identify radicalization very early stages, before it becomes full blown violence.
 

e.cantona

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No ones at fault for themselves being born in circumstance that leave them ignorant, stupid and believing in absolute insane ideas. Ready to kill someone for their opposing ideas. Bad luck, really. But I wouldn't willingly befriend such a person, be their neighbour or colleague, etc. I would want such a person to be as far away from me as possible.
 

Gehrman

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I still think despite whatever circumstances radicalized the agressor, you gotta credit individuals with some agency. We live in a time where the whole world is shouting at you not to do this.
 

TwoSheds

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I still think despite whatever circumstances radicalized the agressor, you gotta credit individuals with some agency. We live in a time where the whole world is shouting at you not to do this.
Agreed. The thing we as a society should focus on is tackling the radical preachers and fomenters, but the bloke is still a straight up cocksucker. End of the day you know what you're doing when you chop someone's head off unless you've had a complete psychotic break.
 

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The blame goes to the people who radicalised this man who believed that cutting off another man's head was just.

Whether it be preachers in real life or online propaganda, a portion of the population susceptible to it. This is the same for Christianity, Far-Right and Far-Left radicalisation.
Before we give terrorism the both sides treatment, a gentle reminder that "far-left radicalization" essentially doesn't kill people in the west, and hasn't for decades. You're not wrong in your main point, of course, but some nuance is in order.
 

e.cantona

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I still think despite whatever circumstances radicalized the agressor, you gotta credit individuals with some agency. We live in a time where the whole world is shouting at you not to do this.
Sure. He should go to prison, if he wasn't killed. Even better would be for him not to be allowed in to a place where he could be so easily offended in the first place.

Agreed. The thing we as a society should focus on is tackling the radical preachers and fomenters, but the bloke is still a straight up cocksucker. End of the day you know what you're doing when you chop someone's head off unless you've had a complete psychotic break.
If I believed eternal bliss awaited me, may be no limit to what I'd be willing to do to escape this place of suffering and what not..
 

TwoSheds

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Sure. He should go to prison, if he wasn't killed. Even better would be for him not to be allowed in to a place where he could be so easily offended in the first place.



If I believed eternal bliss awaited me, may be no limit to what I'd be willing to do to escape this place of suffering and what not..
It's nice to tell yourself you're not the baddie while you're hacking flesh I'm sure. Not saying the fault is all his of course, I'm sure he's been manipulated and abused in all kinds of ways. Still knows what he's doing though IMO, unless like I say he's genuinely on another planet. You'll notice that most crazy people are pretty harmless in general. Because they're not arseholes.

I don't agree with the bolded bit though, how would you propose keeping him out?
 

Paxi

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Absolutely diabolical.
We're not safe in our streets.
Been to Normandy, meandering, pontificating.
I was at St Mere Eglise. I can't quite describe what's going on.
 

e.cantona

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It's nice to tell yourself you're not the baddie while you're hacking flesh I'm sure. Not saying the fault is all his of course, I'm sure he's been manipulated and abused in all kinds of ways. Still knows what he's doing though IMO, unless like I say he's genuinely on another planet. You'll notice that most crazy people are pretty harmless in general. Because they're not arseholes.

I don't agree with the bolded bit though, how would you propose keeping him out?
I don't know how crazy the guy was. In his own mind, I'm sure he wasn't crazy at all.
I don't know how it be done. Suppose we don't know much of anything about him. I was perhaps quick to assume he was of a certain faith and ethnicity.
 

Brwned

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Not sure you can say this is something bubbling up, really. There have been fewer incidents in the last couple of years and it's plausible we could be moving away from a generational peak. While we shouldn't ignore the problems we have now, we definitely shouldn't overlook just how bad things were in the recent past either. That applies globally, within our own region, and in this era's hotspots. Things feel very different now than they did in the time before and after the Paris attacks.
2019 was the fifth consecutive year of declining global terrorism since terrorist violence peaked in 2014 at nearly 17,000 attacks and more than 44,000 total deaths. The total number of terrorist attacks worldwide decreased 50% between 2014 and 2019, and the total number of deaths decreased 54%
 

Deery

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Just heard the attacker was only 18 years old, he’s obviously been radicalised by someone..
 

Devil_forever

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Just heard this on the BBC 10 O'clock News.

What is the matter with these people? I'm 100% sure, nowhere in the Quran endorses this.
Oh and there we go, we have one ladies and gents. I’m sure the Quran definitely doesn’t have anything utterly barbaric in it at all. The truth is, religious books need to be reformed to fit in with the age we’re living on and certain religions will never be open to this reform. I’m going to refrain from speaking my mind on this as I wouldn’t want to offend a particularly sensitive group of people on here.
 

Devil_forever

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No surprise. Islam is unfortunately quite a bit behind the modern world. So sad.
And it will stay that way until people start questioning it without the god damn PC police coming out to defend the indefensible. I can make a joke about every religion and every major figure in that religion, with the exception of one. As someone who grew up extremely liberal in their view point, it beggars belief that liberals are never criticising the one religion which goes against their views far more than any other.
Bill Maher has been the only liberal who’s been consistent on this.
 

fergieisold

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And it will stay that way until people start questioning it without the god damn PC police coming out to defend the indefensible. I can make a joke about every religion and every major figure in that religion, with the exception of one. As someone who grew up extremely liberal in their view point, it beggars belief that liberals are never criticising the one religion which goes against their views far more than any other.
Yeh, it’s really weird. I think I get why people want to protect other people...but in the case of Islam it doesn’t make any sense in a western liberal society. Not that won’t change obviously, it isn’t like other religions have showered themselves in glory in the past!
 

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Oh and there we go, we have one ladies and gents. I’m sure the Quran definitely doesn’t have anything utterly barbaric in it at all. The truth is, religious books need to be taken for what they are. Some fantasy books.
There you go.

Some absolute fecking idiots living in this world
 

Paxi

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Just heard the attacker was only 18 years old, he’s obviously been radicalised by someone..
Absolutely shocked to the core.

Essentially a young kid did an unspeakable thing
 

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I'm 100% sure, nowhere in the Quran endorses this.
This intrigued me as well. Found this in Wikipedia:

Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger – Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time: They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).

— Qur'an, [Quran 33:57–61]
 

dumbo

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Shocking to hear about. One mad act and many lives ruined.

The criticisms of Islam in this thread are ignorant and witless. Regurgitated banalities.
 

e.cantona

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Not sure you can say this is something bubbling up, really. There have been fewer incidents in the last couple of years and it's plausible we could be moving away from a generational peak. While we shouldn't ignore the problems we have now, we definitely shouldn't overlook just how bad things were in the recent past either. That applies globally, within our own region, and in this era's hotspots. Things feel very different now than they did in the time before and after the Paris attacks.
One every 1-2 months in France since 2017 according to this (20:03)
https://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-f...aris-le-parquet-antiterroriste-saisi-20201016
 

Sad Chris

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The criticisms of Islam in this thread are ignorant and witless. Regurgitated banalities.
The reason for the regurgitating is the how-dare-you-question-my-faith-approach by many people of faith. If you can‘t discuss matters openly and freely, you will never be able to move past the basic banalities within the general public scope.

We even have a thread on the Caf that specifically excludes non-religious people.

Criticism of any religion should be welcomed by any human being that cares enough to evolve.
 

marktan

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And it will stay that way until people start questioning it without the god damn PC police coming out to defend the indefensible. I can make a joke about every religion and every major figure in that religion, with the exception of one. As someone who grew up extremely liberal in their view point, it beggars belief that liberals are never criticising the one religion which goes against their views far more than any other.
Bill Maher has been the only liberal who’s been consistent on this.
Well Christianity went through centuries of bloodshed and reformation to become the watered down version that it is now. I mean look at the 30 years war between the Catholics and Protestants in the 1600s, around 8m died..
There are still countries that are very Catholic and take their religion very seriously..

Islam never had a similar process that's removed all the bs fluff. Anyone who'd propose doing that would be public enemy number for Islam, so no one really bothers. As sad as it is people do need to realise that there are people in the world who take the religion very seriously and thus the risk that comes with stuff like the prophet cartoons. I think as time passes by more and more people will become westernised and thus more angostic/atheist, but the reality is currently a lot of people are raised in the faith of Islam by their parents as their sole identity, thus they take it very seriously and pass that mindset down to their kids
 

SinNombre

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Islam was't this radical before the Wahabis took over the oil in Saudi Arabia.
That is certainly a large part of it but how do you solve the Saudi Wahhabi problem now that the genie is out of the bottle?

The other part, as marktan alluded to, is other Abrahamic religions had a reformation in the 17th century which helped them get less radical.
 

2cents

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We even have a thread on the Caf that specifically excludes non-religious people.
The thread I think you have in mind doesn’t exclude non-religious people, despite what the OP says - I’m the top poster in it and I don’t follow any religion. It only exists because the other big threads about religion on the Cafe were being used pretty much solely to critique (to put it politely) religion, and it became impossible to have a general discussion about religion that didn’t descend into the usual back and forth, attacks and apologetics.
 

dumbo

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Someone just got beheaded for freedom of speech. You find that banal?!
No. You seem to have failed to understand a pretty basic comment.

I do think half arsed comments that throw generalisations about are often unhelpful. Particularly by posters who have proven themselves time and again over the last few months to be hugely ignorant of that which they slag off, and careless in their responses.
 

Bebestation

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I really cant say what I feel about this because it could lead to me being targeted to much lesser degrees aswell.

I feel so sorry for this man.

I cant believe that drawing someone actually causes another human to think murder is okay, possibly even a positive thing in their mind.
 

Foxbatt

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That is certainly a large part of it but how do you solve the Saudi Wahhabi problem now that the genie is out of the bottle?

The other part, as marktan alluded to, is other Abrahamic religions had a reformation in the 17th century which helped them get less radical.
It doesn't need anything. Islam is going the wrong way and it's entirely due to the influence of these bearded weirdos.
Islam originally didn't have a priesthood and everyone is equal. And a Fatwa is only an opinion and doesn't have any legal backing. Anyone can give a Fatwa and most of it is contradictory too.
Now these Saudi educated so called Imams are trying to take control of the narrative of Islam. Most of the statements are taken out of context and used for their own gain. They are trying to get a Fatwa as a legal enforcement.
There is no compulsion in religion as in Islam but everyone is trying to force it.
 

Eyepopper

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Not sure if there are any solutions.
A first step might be to avoid needless provocation... I mean, what's happened here is horrific, but was what was the victim was trying to protest here worth the cost they paid?

If I walked into an LGBTQ+ bar spouting bible verse about how they're all gonna burn in hell, and didnt expect to have my head caved in, am I not guilty of being a bit naive?
 

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It seems that radical Islam is very much alive in Chechnya.
If I'm not mistaken, many Isis fighters - even commanders - were Chechens, and surely there have been more incidents where they were involved.
 

shamans

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Before we give terrorism the both sides treatment, a gentle reminder that "far-left radicalization" essentially doesn't kill people in the west, and hasn't for decades. You're not wrong in your main point, of course, but some nuance is in order.
Arguable

Attitudes and cultures that act to ignore or accept the torture of innocents for instance can perpetuate violence and killing.

I get your point though. I mean this man should obviously he punished. I just think this is all from years of wars in the middle east as a big factor
 

shamans

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It seems that radical Islam is very much alive in Chechnya.
If I'm not mistaken, many Isis fighters - even commanders - were Chechens, and surely there have been more incidents where they were involved.
Yes and why do you think so? War and destitute living conditions. There's a reason extremism is high I war ridden or poor countries
 

Eyepopper

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I cant believe that drawing someone actually causes another human to think murder is okay, possibly even a positive thing in their mind.
Its mental, at the same time, if you knew that drawing someone causes another human to think murder is okay, would you still go ahead and it anyway?

Or would you think of other possible ways to express your position?