Spoony
The People's President
Serves those Muslim women right or something.
That's the whole point. A small sector of Muslims will blame the fact that the other side did things against the views of their religion as a reason to kill a teacher and that causes tensions within a multi racial community. It becomes a war inbetween a community. Look at this news article -You just replicated the most popular excuse apologists of Islamist terrorism use to give, only from the "other side".
(Besides it's inaccurate - the articles say an argument about leashing dogs escalated into racist abuse and the stabbing attack.)
No, certainly not. But, I do think it's still not an entirely valid comparison. Anyway, I agree that there is a lot the white community can do. More than they have done already.I agree, I don't go down the all muslims are terrorists path or that all muslims need to denounce islamic terrorism every single time it happens.
I agree there should be no apologies for non-muslims randomly as in this case attacking stabbing muslim women in retaliation to these events.You just replicated the most popular excuse apologists of Islamist terrorism use to give, only from the "other side".
(Besides it's inaccurate - the articles say an argument about leashing dogs escalated into racist abuse and the stabbing attack.)
What the best place to find polls on muslims attitudes and beliefs in Europe? On stuff like the muhammed cartoons, whether they want Sharia?I've tried to engage with people in the past regarding Muslim attitudes towards these type of things with opinion polling, often ones that contradict the predominant narrative or their sweeping generalisations of what Muslims think.
It makes no difference. They will believe what they want to believe.
Nor does stating what my lived experience as a Muslim is either.
But how is not going to be double standards or Islamophobia with an attack every two months, including brutalities like Bataclan.If people can't see the double standard they hold for one situation or 'community' to another
It's impossible for them to realise how these blindspots contribute to subconsciously dehumanising people
That this is a reflection of how ingrained racism and islamophobia is in certain parts of society, to the point people's rights can be impeded and it gets brushed off as 'that's life' while not seeing the irony of projecting the self as a champion of freedom
If you've been able to get through life without noticing how media portrayals or even the language our politicians use can trickle down to a woman getting battered on her way back from work for wearing a headscarf, then your privilege has you real cosy.
The issue here has to do with religion & religious ideology, not the ideology of an certain skin color.White supremacy is an ideology.
Extremist Islam and White Supremacy are both political ideologies with defined Nationalist end-goals.The issue here has to do with religion & religious ideology, not the ideology of an certain skin color.
Until we compare & contrast religious fundamentalism, this argument can tend to be pretty unbalanced & childish.
Islam isn’t a monolith ffsThe muslim community is, you know, all those that are...erm, Muslim! They've got cultural problems within the faith that clash with the west. This kind of thing doesn't seem to, on the face of it anyway, being resisted as strongly as it could. A significant minority of British Muslims are sympathetic towards terrorism, violence within the family, formation of islamic states. Section 11 of the link has a load of stats from polls, pretty difficult to interoperate without proper control polls though.
Yes, Christians can be extremists too, not sure how that absolves the problems within Islam though.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos-mori_0.pdf
Every philosophy and ideology can be subverted, and every subgroup of humanity contains murderous cnuts.The muslim community is, you know, all those that are...erm, Muslim! They've got cultural problems within the faith that clash with the west. This kind of thing doesn't seem to, on the face of it anyway, being resisted as strongly as it could. A significant minority of British Muslims are sympathetic towards terrorism, violence within the family, formation of islamic states. Section 11 of the link has a load of stats from polls, pretty difficult to interoperate without proper control polls though.
Yes, Christians can be extremists too, not sure how that absolves the problems within Islam though.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-on-muslims-in-great-britain-ipsos-mori_0.pdf
If you don’t include the religious influence in both, you’re not accurately discussing the elephant in the room. I agree with you that they both have political & nationalistic overtones, but to omit the substantial causation of religion doesn’t help get to the root cause.Extremist Islam and White Supremacy are both political ideologies with defined Nationalist end-goals.
It originally seemed to me that you wanted to draw a one-sided causality: racism against Muslims as a reaction to Islamist terror. That's what my reply was about. But I understand you want to draw a different picture - an escalation between "two communities". Imo, that's very dangerous as well.That's the whole point. A small sector of Muslims will blame the fact that the other side did things against the views of their religion as a reason to kill a teacher and that causes tensions within a multi racial community. It becomes a war inbetween a community. Look at this news article -
"Two Muslim women were 'stabbed repeatedly' under the Eiffel Tower amid rising tensions in Paris after the beheading of a teacher last week.
French police have arrested two female suspects after an argument about dogs allegedly descended into violence and racist insults including the words 'Dirty Arabs'."
The rising tension happened because of the splitting of a community that happened due to one community thinking 'a drawing of their prophets shouldn't happen and now is suitable for murder'.
Who ever dies, whatever their names, personality or religion is - the fact they died is awful.
If this random woman had killed two random women just about their dogs then that's one thing hardly related to a religion or a colour of a person's skin.
But we see rising tensions between 2 communities happen after the blowing up of an arianda grande concert, the blowing up of underground trains, the blowing up of buildings and planes like 9/11, the killing of a teacher. Why? Because the religion and racial views are bought in as a reason for some people in a community to act in a certain violent way. Then what happens is the other community may retaliate with their own religious or racial views aswell.
If someone from a non atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, catholic, Jewish religion kill a random person in a multiracial community over something random that happens regularly like the thieving of money or even sexual abuse - does the persons religion ever get highlighted as a cause? Not really for me, the killer didnt bring a religious or racial view as a cause of their actions. Then compare that to people who kill someone for a drawing of their religion or shout their gods name before blowing up a population in a concert or underground train - it leads to tension directly against that religion and race because they themselves bought it up.
If you only look at the religion and ignore the specific political movements driving the both examples of extremism, you're also not accurately discussing the elephant in the room.If you don’t include the religious influence in both, you’re not accurately discussing the elephant in the room. I agree with you that they both have political & nationalistic overtones, but to omit the substantial causation of religion doesn’t help get to the root cause.
Just right In your first sentence you are comparing a faction of a religious belief to a skin color ideology. It’s a tad like apples to oranges. Until we compare apples to apples, the arguments will always be skewed with bias & never going to pierce to the root issue.
You’re correct insomuch that I have pegged religion as the root issue, but you are ignorant in stating that I am only biased towards one religion. I discussed earlier in this thread the christian influence in white supremacy in my country. Please don’t think that I am simply against Islam because I am a white person, I’m equally contemptuous of all religious extremism. I don’t discount the political motivations & machinations in both sides of the debate, but those are typically adopted later in life & are vehicles through which people try to make the changes they want to see. The seeds for religious extremism are planted & germinated much earlier in one’s life.If you only look at the religion and ignore the specific political movements driving the both examples of extremism, you're also not accurately discussing the elephant in the room.
You seem to have decided on the conclusion before analysing the underlying motivations and the overall power structures at the heart of the two ideologies. The way you've framed your post, it's obvious that the only "root issue" that you're willing to piece together is Islam. That kind of absolutism and zeal can be harmful in any walk of life.
I didnt fully understand what you said because your english is amazing. I just understand why people dont want to be associated in the group that caused Islamophobia- yet does Islamophobia happen whilst people call out their own gods name before blowing themselves up and the population up? Or does it happen by the media and the government who talk about it in the 'wrong way' a day or two after?It originally seemed to me that you wanted to draw a one-sided causality: racism against Muslims as a reaction to Islamist terror. That's what my reply was about. But I understand you want to draw a different picture - an escalation between "two communities". Imo, that's very dangerous as well.
Most importantly: don't view & pigeonhole people as representatives of "communities". These social demographics ("White people"/"Muslims"/"Turks", etc.) are politically diverse in themselves, so these issues must be regarded in terms of political conflicts. Which produces very different dividing lines. Militant racists and Jihadists bear much more similarity to each other (despite their mutual hatred), than to liberal people from their so-called "own communities". Portraying it as an ethnic conflict (or ethno-religious, which is the same) is doing the deed of the extremists on both sides - it's exactly what they want.
(Two caveats: 1. This identitarian logic is very much part of mainstream ideology everywhere, so not only a product of radical fringes. 2. If identity is pushed upon people, they may have to operate from that standpoint to defend themselves.)
This might be the stupidest post I've read in a while.You’re correct insomuch that I have pegged religion as the root issue, but you are ignorant in stating that I am only biased towards one religion. I discussed earlier in this thread the christian influence in white supremacy in my country. Please don’t think that I am simply against Islam because I am a white person, I’m equally contemptuous of all religious extremism. I don’t discount the political motivations & machinations in both sides of the debate, but those are typically adopted later in life & are vehicles through which people try to make the changes they want to see. The seeds for religious extremism are planted & germinated much earlier in one’s life.
This obfuscation to try to paint me as anti-islam again doesn’t allow us to get to a point where we discuss rationally the initial causation of religion. It’s just trying to create another imbalanced argument. It perpetuates the bunker mentality, the ‘everyone is against us’ mentality, the divisiveness that exists in virtually every religion, the ‘us v.them’ mentality. I just expressing the hope that we can start comparing apples to apples regarding the psychosis & horror that exists in all religious fundamentalism. I don’t paint entire swaths of skin color with the same brush nor do I view all religions by what their fundie factions due, but it would be a breakthrough if people didn’t retrench & circle the wagons when they have their fundie aspect of their religion criticized & engaged in discourse that will ultimately purge the fundie aspect from their ranks.
How so? You specifically said that I am only anti-Islam, I am offering that I am not & I am against religious fundamentalism. I see white supremacy in my country as a form of religious fundamentalism, I abhor it equally. I’m just stating that until we look at the problem equally & not retrench every time someone’s specific religion gets called out, we could potentially advance things.This might be the stupidest post I've read in a while.
The distinctions don't have to be sharp if they can be combinational.Not sure if drawing a sharp distinction between religious and political spheres is a useful way to understand the type of radicalism we’re discussing here. I certainly don’t think such a distinction really exists in the minds of the radicals themselves. Very hard for us to free ourselves from these categories, but it may be crucial.
I respect that & not trying to draw you back in. Just a last remark, the question of a "true essence" of Islam isn't really interesting to me. In the end, real-life religion is what people make of it, no matter the theological credibility. And it can obviously vary a lot, from ugly, bigoted & violent to tolerant, humane & quite likable. And all kind of things in between.Anyway, it's nice talking to you. I think I'm done on this thread because I dont want to be talking about religion on a football forum more than I've already done.
Not 100% sure which viewpoints you're referring to - besides one poster, who did it quite openly. Where did you make out such a sharp distinction?Not sure if drawing a sharp distinction between religious and political spheres is a useful way to understand the type of radicalism we’re discussing here. I certainly don’t think such a distinction really exists in the minds of the radicals themselves. Very hard for us to free ourselves from these categories, but it may be crucial.
The distinctions don't have to be sharp if they can be combinational.
White and moderate is a distinct combination from one of white and extremist. Being willing to take it down to that level of understanding will make things more complicated. But it will also make them more accurate and revealing. Certainly more so than leaning towards a kind of reductive essentialism.
So there obviously does still need to be some categorisation in order to have a meaningful discussion. And you're right that we need to free ourselves from the way they're most commonly formulated in the West. But that also means being able to draw out greater intra-group differences and stronger inter-group similarities.
Sorry not being rude, will try respond to these in the next few days.Not 100% sure which viewpoints you're referring to - besides one poster, who did it quite openly. Where did you make out such a sharp distinction?
In any case, would be interesting to hear more about your criticism of the terminological framework.
No problem, take your time.Sorry not being rude, will try respond to these in the next few days.
I'm not trying to attack you at all here by the way but I'm genuinely interested in what you say when you try to engage with people about this stuff and what you say about polling?I've tried to engage with people in the past regarding Muslim attitudes towards these type of things with opinion polling, often ones that contradict the predominant narrative or their sweeping generalisations of what Muslims think.
It makes no difference. They will believe what they want to believe.
Nor does stating what my lived experience as a Muslim is either.
Searching on Charlie Hebdo on Twitter all I'm seeing is mostly people calling for a boycott of France.I'm not trying to attack you at all here by the way but I'm genuinely interested in what you say when you try to engage with people about this stuff and what you say about polling?
I say this as someone who comes from a Muslim background but no longer believes and who has a wife who is half Egyptian (and that side of the family has some very religious members) and still keeps some contact with our local Muslim (and Arab but Egyptian especially) community here in the UK too.
Because so far, the response on these whatsapp groups here has been to call for boycott of French goods and France in general. The general response in these groups, as well as over the phone etc has been very little about the actual beheading itself.
Its been exclusively focused on how, even though he didn't deserve to die, Paty shouldn't have shown those pictures in the first place and how France is apparently subjugating and treating its Muslim population in a horrible way because of the subsequent response to this attack.
I don't think Muslims need to go around condemning every single one of these attacks. I don't think Muslims are violent or Islam is inherently violent. There is clearly a political element to all of this too, with various Middle Eastern adventures, colonial history, current racism etc. But I also think its problematic and digging our heads in the sand to pretend that there isn't a problem with the prism which at least a significant minority of Muslims look at these situations.
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I'm not surprised, as Uwebein says, in those countries. In a way, I don't even blame them, they're in their majority Muslim country, living by their laws, which they are of course more than free to do.
I venture that, in today's political climate, establishing that neither Islam nor Muslims are monolithic is actually helpful - it's a necessary prerequisite to discuss the issues you talk about. You say "of course" no group has ever been homogenous, but that banality is far from a consensus. It may not always be explicit or on purpose, but popular culturalistic understandings (mostly variations on the "Western identity" vs "Islamic identity" theme) have a natural tendency towards such essentialist views. And that in turn has political consequences.I don't think digging heads in the sand or saying there can't be a problem with the response within certain communities after events like these or saying that Muslims aren't a monolith is helpful. Of course Muslims aren't a monolith, no group in history has ever been homogeneous.
I think it perhaps depends on the context for me.I venture that, in today's political climate, establishing that neither Islam nor Muslims are monolithic is actually helpful - it's a necessary prerequisite to discuss the issues you talk about. You say "of course" no group has ever been homogenous, but that banality is far from a consensus. It may not always be explicit or on purpose, but popular culturalistic understandings (mostly variations on the "Western identity" vs "Islamic identity" theme) have a natural tendency towards such essentialist views. And that in turn has political consequences.
It's the same with the interconnection of certain popular views and radicalism inside various Muslim demographics you talk about: everybody with a bit of knowledge and two open eyes knows about this, but it's something that has to be maintained first. (And your posts on these matters are very good in general.)
I'd say that only when these two basic facts are made explicit, a reasonable discussion is even possible. There's simply no "of course" when it comes to these issues.
Absolutely.I think it perhaps depends on the context for me.
No disagreement either. And I think your posts on overlaps between mainstream and Islamist resentments are insightful. Where I partly differ is this:What does end up being said are the usual stereotypes on the other side and an almost blanket refusal to acknowledge that any of these problems may, in some part, derive from the general attitudes from within certain communities. So while you yourself may condemn the killing and beheading of this man for the cartoons, perpetuating a culture where it is deemed totally unacceptable and wrong for this teacher to show those cartoons means that while you are totally peaceful, others who are not many have different reactions to his actions.
And I'm not saying this is unique to Muslim communities, it is universal to all.
While your personal stance towards reactionary attitudes of "both" kinds has always been clear, I think your assessment of the audience in this forum is too optimistic.Were I to find myself in a discussion where the context is people talking about how Muslims don't belong in Europe or all think he should have been killed etc, I will come down hard with the prevailing view on this board for instance and argue vociferously against. Seeing however as how the zeitgeist on here is a bit different (and somebody was suggesting that the polls etc are misrepresenting how Muslims think), I wanted to give my own opinion, as well as enquire further as to how and why he thinks the polls are not quite doing their job properly.
That is totally fair enough and I was probably being slightly disingenuous when talking about the prevailing attitude on this board. I do think there's a left tint (which I love) but certainly not universally so.Absolutely.
No disagreement either. And I think your posts on overlaps between mainstream and Islamist resentments are insightful. Where I partly differ is this:
While your personal stance towards reactionary attitudes of "both" kinds has always been clear, I think your assessment of the audience in this forum is too optimistic.
Just an obvious example, the post directly under your previous one is a speech by Douglas Murray, who believes immigration (not only of Muslims, but all kinds of people including black British and inter-European immigration) brings forth the "death of Europe" as a civilization. He propagates the mainstreaming of Front National, UKIP, AfD & suchlike, and his books are revered inside these circles. Despite all the talk of a supposed Libcafe, this is part of the Caf zeitgeist as well. Especially when including less explicit variants, who reject the overt right wing, but still share similar resentments. (I remember you having altercations with that kind of stuff during the BLM controversies too.) It needs to be addressed as well.
Well, seems there's nothing to disagree about. And your input here is much appreciated, I'm sure not only by me.That is totally fair enough and I was probably being slightly disingenuous when talking about the prevailing attitude on this board. I do think there's a left tint (which I love) but certainly not universally so.
You're also right about those on here who never explicitly make clear their political (or moral) viewpoints but push the boat a little bit in what they say, which is less than ideal.
I'll be totally honest, I initially had no plan on getting involved in this thread but a combination of the post from Wolverine (who is a great poster, I just wanted to hear their thoughts) and the WhatsApp conversations within my wife's circles happened at roughly the same time.