The “Ole doesn’t have the players to work with” myth

SAFMUTD

Full Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
1,526
/This.

Time for the OgS apologists to decide. If iGS isn’t in charge of transfers & is a puppet; he gets no credit for the likes of Sanchez, Lukaku leaving whilst also can’t be blamed for the lack of incomings.

If he is as he states in charge of transfers he must take full responsibility for not plugging glaring gaps in the summer.

When we went into freefall last season he was telling us he knew what we needed & how players that left would be replaced - the man is clueless.
Thats not how it works, he takes full credit for getting rid of Alexis, Lukaku, Fellaini, Smalling, etc and everyone who was labeled as deadwood, while not being able to retain Herrera extending Mata and Jones contracts and leaving the full squad with holes is Woodward’s fault.

Thats how logic works for the cult.
 

dave1956

Full Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
226
I want Ole out the quality of the midfield and forwards is dire.

Our midfield options today were Matic, Pereira, Fred and Mata. There is nothing in that midfield. It’s awful.

In attack we have three inconsistent youngsters. And for me Martial has now been given the opportunity as a striker and he isn’t exactly flourishing. He’s 24 this month. I’m getting to the point where I think he just not as good as everyone thinks. The MOTD analysis shows him once again not moving to create space and he’s never in the box when crosses come in. Movement like that is instinctive in top class strikers, it’s very difficult to teach that.
I fully agree with you, you cannot coach vision, it is either in a player or not and it is what makes a good player a great player and this applies to coaches. Players of the past for example Jimmy Greaves, Law, Charlton, Best in defenders you had Crerand, Bobby Moore, Blanchflower brothers, Duncan Edwards, Tony Dunne just for example they all had the ability to read the game 2 or 3 moves before the ball arrived and be in the right position at the right time. For example I remember Utd., playing Spurs at Old Trafford, Law had a shot but he anticipated that Jennings could save it but kept running into the box, Jennings did save it, diving to his right but Denis was there to head the ball back into the net at the right hand post. We have no one at the moment who has this vision. For a defender Crerand had no recovery pace once a player was past him that was it most of the time but his reading of the game was immense, he would position himself so that he intercepted the pass and his passing ability either short or long was second to none.
The nearest we have today in passing ability is Mata, not quick now but not played to his abilities. He reminds me of Liverpool's Jan Molby who could pass a ball through the eye of a needle, lost his pace and was somewhat over weight to say the least towards his last couple of seasons but what Liverpool did was they took that into their playing plan. They had players who covered him and created the space for him to play. His passing ability and vision was exceptional he could cut a defence open with a single well weighted pass given the room and time which his fellow players created.
We could do that with Mata, at least for this season, but you need the players around him with the ability to read a game and adjust to the changing movements of the opposition and I do not think we have those players nor the coaching staff including the manager to implement that type of game plan.
 

squamish

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
27
He was the greatest 12th player in the squad and I guess he will not get at manager level for premier league for ever.
 

stevecoppell

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
82
Ok then, what have world class coaches done for Utd? Van Gaal , Mourinho how did that go? We played the same horrible unimaginative football we are playing right now and those 2 had a (slightly) better squad than the one Ole has now.

These players are quite frankly horrible, there is no chemistry. How often does James hit a decent cross only to have absolutely nobody attacking the ball? The other way around , how often will James continue to hit a first time cross when he should know better by now that nobody will make an effort to attack the ball...
Against Villa we had 2 perfectly fine attacks inside the first 20 minutes only for the man on the ball (I believe it was Mata and the second time Rashford) failing to spot the free man at the centre of the penalty area. You're a bad football player if you don't see that...

That midfield. It's definitely among the worst 3 or 4 in the EPL this season. Pereira doesn't spot a runner, or he does but doesn't pass which is even worse. When he does take the pass forward it's either too hard or too slow. He is no good , neither as an 8 nor as a 10. I heard in Spain he played on the wing. I can't imagine him creating much there either.
Fred is slightly better but he has at least one horror pass in him every single game. He also is no good as an 8, I reckon he is better as a forward a he is quite nimble and quick but his shooting is Anderson level shit.

Our backs what do they contribute in attack? For all the shit Young takes at least he manages to put a cross in. Wan Bissaka's crossing hits the first defender each time. Where are the overlapping runs? Williams and Bissaka look shaky on the ball. It's an unpopular opinion but Young is the best of the lot

Centre defense same story. Maguire gets all the time by the opposition to play the ball forward because everybody knows his passing isn't very impressive anyway. Both Lindelof and Maguire look nervy at all times when the ball is at their feet. Yet both are called "ball players" in England, outrageous statement.
I don't know if you guys remember the nations league semi final vs Holland. Maguire had an absolute nightmare game that night. With each game I see him getting worse the past couple of games. We literally have no single midfield player that comes and collects the ball from the centre backs, why does nobody relief them?

Worst team since the early 70s and the league table is showing just that.
 

stevecoppell

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
82
I still support Ole but I disagree with you. What you just wrote indicates that managers have no impact on football at all.
On the pitch itself I believe it is limited yes. A good coach installs belief and confidence in the players, he gets them 100% focussed, fit and in the right state of mind. They have little influence during the match, except for subbing those that need subbed. A coach is also responsible for putting the right players at their right position and in that case I think Ole is doing quite fine when you take in mind he has almost no options to choose from, unless you call an 18 year old ready to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world. What happens on the pitch attacking wise is all up to the players on the pitch. Do you think Guardiola is telling De Bruyne when and how to play Aguero in? I counted at least 2 very poor choices our attacking trio made in the villa game. For City of Liverpool those would have resulted in 2 goals. Ole knows as no other what it takes to play attacking football, he has been part of an attacking team all his career, it's not his fault that his attackers have no football brain, nor is it his fault that the board doesn't back him in his transfers or that Woody fails to buy them.
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
3,765
On the pitch itself I believe it is limited yes. A good coach installs belief and confidence in the players, he gets them 100% focussed, fit and in the right state of mind. They have little influence during the match, except for subbing those that need subbed. A coach is also responsible for putting the right players at their right position and in that case I think Ole is doing quite fine when you take in mind he has almost no options to choose from, unless you call an 18 year old ready to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world. What happens on the pitch attacking wise is all up to the players on the pitch. Do you think Guardiola is telling De Bruyne when and how to play Aguero in? I counted at least 2 very poor choices our attacking trio made in the villa game. For City of Liverpool those would have resulted in 2 goals. Ole knows as no other what it takes to play attacking football, he has been part of an attacking team all his career, it's not his fault that his attackers have no football brain, nor is it his fault that the board doesn't back him in his transfers or that Woody fails to buy them.
Actually Pep would tell KDB and Aguero the moves. It's called right space at the right time. That's Cruijff's philosophy. The moves are practiced too.
It's his fault the way we play. It's his fault that he didn't get a midfield player instead of a CB. Put in two good midfield players in this side instead of James and Maguire. But then again he probably doesn't have the competency anyway to coach a top club or rather now it's a big club and not a top club.
 

stevecoppell

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
82
Actually Pep would tell KDB and Aguero the moves. It's called right space at the right time. That's Cruijff's philosophy. The moves are practiced too.
It's his fault the way we play. It's his fault that he didn't get a midfield player instead of a CB. Put in two good midfield players in this side instead of James and Maguire. But then again he probably doesn't have the competency anyway to coach a top club or rather now it's a big club and not a top club.
I don't believe that, de Bruyne is equally important for Belgium and there is no Pep to tell him what to do.
I also don't believe it's Ole's fault that there is no extra midfield player, he leads the training and the team, he doesn't do negotiations. I'm pretty sure he wanted at least 5 new players and that's including players of each segment on the pitch.
Perhaps he is a bit old school as a coach, especially for being a young coach. But fans continue to lay the blame with the coaches which imo is wrong. The higher ups are to blame, they do the financing and they dilly dallied for months to buy only 2 players ( not counting James, that's great business) when we all know many more are needed.
 

Denis79

Full Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
3,728
On the pitch itself I believe it is limited yes. A good coach installs belief and confidence in the players, he gets them 100% focussed, fit and in the right state of mind. They have little influence during the match, except for subbing those that need subbed. A coach is also responsible for putting the right players at their right position and in that case I think Ole is doing quite fine when you take in mind he has almost no options to choose from, unless you call an 18 year old ready to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world. What happens on the pitch attacking wise is all up to the players on the pitch. Do you think Guardiola is telling De Bruyne when and how to play Aguero in? I counted at least 2 very poor choices our attacking trio made in the villa game. For City of Liverpool those would have resulted in 2 goals. Ole knows as no other what it takes to play attacking football, he has been part of an attacking team all his career, it's not his fault that his attackers have no football brain, nor is it his fault that the board doesn't back him in his transfers or that Woody fails to buy them.
I understand your points and agree with some of them. As you wrote the manager can't control the quality of his current players, that Rashford can't hit a barn door isn't on Ole, what is on him though is the lack of players commited forward when we manage to get a cross in, the lack of overlapping runs to open up opposition defences and so on. He isn't a tactical genius and at times sets us up so poorly that it gives the team a difficult time and the lack of quality players makes it even worse.

The movement of players, blocks and overlaps is something that is a part of a certain tactic or not, it's trained on daily basis and tweaked according to opposition. There's a reason Peps teams always play a certain way, Klopp's etc. It's the tactics not the players. Klopps start at Liverpool was poor but you could see what his intention was, it makes me sad I can't see that with Ole because I really want him to succeed. To say no manager in the world can do a better job than Ole is over the top and we both know untrue. That doesn't mean I want him sacked, just saying that all managers set up differently and with that get different results.
 

Figgins

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
141
The manager, we the fans and the club. Do you actually think when Fergie was winning he always had the ideal eleven or squad but some players you keep for a little longer until you are in a position to get better.

All I am saying is that Lukaku and Smalling could have contributed to the team and have us in a better position.
Which part of the Fergie era are you conveniently referring to? Or that an era where player power and social media couldn't damage brand value and sponsorship very quickly.

All i am saying is at the start of the season Ole had every reason to believe there was sufficient defensive cover to permite some defenders to leave. sadly only Chris left. that isn't ole's fault.

All i am saying is Lukaku didnt want to be a bench warmer, wasn't in United's vision and a proportion of support never wanted him. You think.. and i respect you view.. that Lukaku was better kept at united...
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
3,663
Which part of the Fergie era are you conveniently referring to? Or that an era where player power and social media couldn't damage brand value and sponsorship very quickly.

All i am saying is at the start of the season Ole had every reason to believe there was sufficient defensive cover to permite some defenders to leave. sadly only Chris left. that isn't ole's fault.

All i am saying is Lukaku didnt want to be a bench warmer, wasn't in United's vision and a proportion of support never wanted him. You think.. and i respect you view.. that Lukaku was better kept at united...
The truth on the striking front is Ole and the club hoped Rashford and Martial would step up and they haven’t. Martial is now showing his level which is a very lazy player off the ball, something he has always been. He’s got what he wanted, centre forward position, number 9 and he hasn’t shown the goods this season.

As for midfield I still don’t know what they thought was going to happen. Ok McTominay was effectively promoted but even with Pogba we still need 3 midfielders to play Ole’s formation. What did he think was his other midfielder to play? Fred’s season last year was so bad it was clear he was never going to improve that much to become a great player. Mata and Matic basically retired last season. Pereira didn’t shine at Almeria or Valencia. Maybe he wanted Lingard at 10?

I’m sure Ole wanted more players if he could but if you know there is some form of budget why blow it all on one CB, then loan out the best one you had? Okay Smalling isn’t the best CB in the world but protection from midfield has been our massive weakness until Herrera bridged that gap for a period last season.

When Herrera left his replacement should have been the priority signing.
 
Last edited:

Andycoleno9

Full Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
8,932
Location
Croatia
/This.

Time for the OgS apologists to decide. If iGS isn’t in charge of transfers & is a puppet; he gets no credit for the likes of Sanchez, Lukaku leaving whilst also can’t be blamed for the lack of incomings.

If he is as he states in charge of transfers he must take full responsibility for not plugging glaring gaps in the summer.

When we went into freefall last season he was telling us he knew what we needed & how players that left would be replaced - the man is clueless.
100 this. But you are talking to people who think that it is hard to beat Villa without better midfield. Again not his fault
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
755
I think injuries have derailed us quite a bit.


Ask yourself this question: How many times has the preferred 11 played together on the pitch?


For me personally, it's been zero that I can remember. De Gea, AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, Scott, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, James. I don't think they've all played even one match together, never mind forming partnerships and fluidity. Such disjointedness can't succeed, especially when their stand-ins are usually so poor.


I remember Pep saying in his debut Premier League season that it takes about 14 players to learn a new style, and involving more players than that usually doesn't give good results. Surely the disjointedness around the first 11 makes it hard for ideas to stick.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
3,131
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
So you would rather see Lindelof & Phil Jones in centre back than McTominay - Pogba - Fred in midfield? Is this a joke? How can you manage to say our central defenders is more or less to an average EPL level but you call our midfield as "far below" of the level.

You are making excuses that you think we need midfielder more than a centre back, it's so ridiculous because the reality is we need a centre back as equal as we need a midfielder. I'm using Jose's case spent 180m on midfielders not because I'm questioning Mourinho but I'm questioning your excuses to tell you that even even after spent 3 of summer windows to sort out our midfielders, we were still making no progress last season, & there was still problem in our team. At the end of the day we have to consider those two position as equal problems that we need to sort out.

It's not shockingly bad, why are you talking nonsense? Our recruitment have been performing very well for us so far this season. What game are you watching?

We spent 50m on full back for worth of the next 10 years not for only 2 or 3 years like Meunier who barely even play regular with PSG.
Maguire was brought in to upgrade our defense, add ability to play from the back, add the composure, leadership & experience in defense which he did.
Daniel James has been our best signing so far and potentially to cement the starting XI winger position for very long time.

These three players are basically have prove them self that they have potential capable to take United to the next level as a part of the rebuilding plan.

We aren't parking the bus & waiting for mistake for counter in all our games. Completely different to how Mourinho play. Just because we are turning defense into attack or we play counter doesn't mean all we are doing is parking the bus & waiting for mistake. You are ignoring the fact that we are relying on pressing & we play a counter press. Just because we went defensive approach against Liverpool doesn't mean we did the same thing to other games, the manager isn't naive to approach every game the same way, the manager has to consider what's the current squad's weakness as well.
I would have Alderweireld/Ake and Smalling/Lindelof as a central pairing. Maguire, with his less than impressive of mobility, is not a player to build a defence around. Especially if we want to play any other style than low block/counter.

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that we needed a centreback during the summer. Only that we needed a midfielder more. The ideal would have been to buy both. Not buying a midfielder would have hurt us more than not buying a centreback. Our inability to improve our midfield despite spending £180m on it is simply because 2 of the 3 players brought in were short term or simply not good enough. If you end up paying for something that is actually not that good, it will not work (I wonder how they scouted Fred? 6 min youtube compilation of his game against City?).

Regarding our recruitment: If the people in charge believe that we will be able to challenge while by playing the type of football we currently are playing (counter attacking, low block and no emphasis on possession) then the players we brought in are good transfers that suit the type of football they think will bring success. The reason I think our recruitment has been bad is down to the case that I strongly believe that any type of football that does not base itself on any type of possession and controlling games against weaker opposition will not work long term. Hence my opinion that our transfers or transfer policy have been really bad.

James is a low risk, high reward transfer with the abilities to perform in a counter attacking setup. Against a balanced defence, however, he is not nearly as productive.

I can't excactly pinpoint the type of football we are playing, but it is not that different to how we played under Mourinho. We might try pressing high for periods of some games with our attacking players but this is ineffective due to the rest of the team not following.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
44,874
Location
Hope, We Lose
I think injuries have derailed us quite a bit.


Ask yourself this question: How many times has the preferred 11 played together on the pitch?


For me personally, it's been zero that I can remember. De Gea, AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, Scott, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, James. I don't think they've all played even one match together, never mind forming partnerships and fluidity. Such disjointedness can't succeed, especially when their stand-ins are usually so poor.


I remember Pep saying in his debut Premier League season that it takes about 14 players to learn a new style, and involving more players than that usually doesn't give good results. Surely the disjointedness around the first 11 makes it hard for ideas to stick.
Dealing with injuries is pretty much a pre-requisite for United managers. We've always got first choice players out
 

Alabaster Codify7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
4,913
Location
Wales
This is what Ole's performances have people believing. Incredible.

Both are true in my opinion. Squad is THAT bad but Ole is also THAT mediocre.

You have two severe flesh wounds on your body. You don't allow both wounds to go gangrenous because you only have the medical supplies to treat one.
 

Massive Spanner

Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
13,579
Location
Tool shed
I think injuries have derailed us quite a bit.
They haven't. Our results have basically been the same all season regardless of who is or isn't available.

Look at the first four games. We put in a good performance against a big team (Chelsea) then drew a game we should be winning (Wolves), lost a game we should've won (Palace), drew a game we should've won (S'hampton).

Next four games. Beat a big team (Leicester), lost to a team we should beat (West Ham), drew against a big team (Arse), lost to a team we should beat (Newcastle) and so on and so forth.

Injuries to players is an excuse that's been invented to defend him. The reality is that we have been consistently shit.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
2,359
Location
The rainbow's end
I think injuries have derailed us quite a bit.


Ask yourself this question: How many times has the preferred 11 played together on the pitch?


For me personally, it's been zero that I can remember. De Gea, AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, Scott, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, James. I don't think they've all played even one match together, never mind forming partnerships and fluidity. Such disjointedness can't succeed, especially when their stand-ins are usually so poor.


I remember Pep saying in his debut Premier League season that it takes about 14 players to learn a new style, and involving more players than that usually doesn't give good results. Surely the disjointedness around the first 11 makes it hard for ideas to stick.
So, what happens if we sign 3 new starters next summer and Pogba decides to say goodbye? Do we write off another whole season and give Solskjaer a free ride once more because the team needs time to gel?

And i don't agree that it's simply a matter of the right ideas needing time to stick. Just take a look at best performances halfway through the season. All of them came when our possession percentages were <50% with the exception of the Norwich game when it was just above that (53.5%). We have built our attack on three players who rely on pace and acceleration to make things happen. We are targeting players of the same ilk for next summer. We decided to make Pogba the epicentre of our midfield of two when we know that he is a player who doesn't help you control the midfield but can provide moments of individual brilliance. We put a ball-winning midfielder next to him which accentuates the notion that we're not interested in winning the midfield battle but play a more direct, transition-based football. These choices, upfront and in the midfield, explain why we look good when we allow others to have the initiative. And because we knew that this type of football (when the opponent enjoys the lion's share of possession) will put our defence under pressure, we decided to spend 130 million quid on defenders.

You see, the main ideas have already been implemented and, frankly, that's the problem. More than the injuries. Imho, he doesn't deserve another season (unless he miraculously manages to turn things around) because i don't believe that if we give him another 300 odd million to sign Longstaff, Rice, Sancho and Haaland, he will be able to show a three hundred millions worth of improvement on the pitch. We'd still be a side relying solely on others leaving spaces for us to exploit.
 

Alabaster Codify7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
4,913
Location
Wales
They haven't. Our results have basically been the same all season regardless of who is or isn't available.

Look at the first four games. We put in a good performance against a big team (Chelsea) then drew a game we should be winning (Wolves), lost a game we should've won (Palace), drew a game we should've won (S'hampton).

Next four games. Beat a big team (Leicester), lost to a team we should beat (West Ham), drew against a big team (Arse), lost to a team we should beat (Newcastle) and so on and so forth.

Injuries to players is an excuse that's been invented to defend him. The reality is that we have been consistently shit.


CLAP. CLAP. CLAP.

Well bloody said, mate. Well bloody said.

Nail on head. We were mediocre/shite full-strength, we are mediocre/shite now. What is the common denominator between those two periods?
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
755
Injuries to players is an excuse that's been invented to defend him. The reality is that we have been consistently shit.
Aye but the reasons have been different. At first we weren't scoring enough, closely linked to Martial being out. Now we're scoring more but we have no midfield control, closely linked to Pogba and Scott being out.

You can see why I'd come to the conclusion that if they were all available, we'd have been able to piece together something better by now.
 
Last edited:

Maticmaker

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
1,183
Players play and Managers manage, or so we are led to believe. The problem for United's last three managers, in fact the last few seasons with SAF as well, is that Players don't play, or at least to any level of consistency and that's what makes it difficult for managers. The 'best players' have always been those who the manager can rely on to deliver regular, fairly consistence performances, whether they are the most skilled players, or just the journeyman. Without such regularity their tactics are useless. When managers have no confidence that anything more than one or two of their team will perform regularly, their own tactics become negative, the equivalent of curling up in a ball to protect yourself, adopting a default position.

In our pomp under both SAF and even further back to Sir Matt, our managers were able to plan and execute ideas/tactics because they knew in any given circumstance 7 or 8 out of their first XI would perform to their regular standards every time they took the field and even if the team overall is not playing its best football it could win matches, playing ugly as the phrase now used indicates.
Its painful to say it but Klopp's Liverpool is now in this position, he knows in any given match 7 or 8 of his players will turn up, maybe not always the same 7 or 8, but that ratio is maintained.

In the last season there was probably only David De Gea, who we could count on to turn up and do his stuff to a high level. Now we seem to have De Gea, McTomany (when fit) AWB and possibly Maguire, still a long way short and certainly miles away from where we need to be in this respect. Sometimes when 7 or 8 do turn up we look very good, but Ole knows next match it can be very different once again
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
755
So, what happens if we sign 3 new starters next summer and Pogba decides to say goodbye? Do we write off another whole season and give Solskjaer a free ride once more because the team needs time to gel?

And i don't agree that it's simply a matter of the right ideas needing time to stick. Just take a look at best performances halfway through the season. All of them came when our possession percentages were <50% with the exception of the Norwich game when it was just above that (53.5%). We have built our attack on three players who rely on pace and acceleration to make things happen. We are targeting players of the same ilk for next summer. We decided to make Pogba the epicentre of our midfield of two when we know that he is a player who doesn't help you control the midfield but can provide moments of individual brilliance. We put a ball-winning midfielder next to him which accentuates the notion that we're not interested in winning the midfield battle but play a more direct, transition-based football. These choices, upfront and in the midfield, explain why we look good when we allow others to have the initiative. And because we knew that this type of football (when the opponent enjoys the lion's share of possession) will put our defence under pressure, we decided to spend 130 million quid on defenders.

You see, the main ideas have already been implemented and, frankly, that's the problem. More than the injuries. Imho, he doesn't deserve another season (unless he miraculously manages to turn things around) because i don't believe that if we give him another 300 odd million to sign Longstaff, Rice, Sancho and Haaland, he will be able to show a three hundred millions worth of improvement on the pitch. We'd still be a side relying solely on others leaving spaces for us to exploit.
I agree with a lot of that tbh. The thing that leaves me wondering is the fact that Fred, with better match fitness, is starting to really improve his performances. Had he been available since the start, I think Pogba would have eventually replaced Pereira, basically completing our midfield and attack and giving it a different dynamic. Instead, important players got injured and you know how it went.


But at the end of the day, I'm not really defending Ole, just wondering how things could have been had we been playing with the lineup I mentioned from day one. The fact that we weren't is also partly on Ole, so he's not free from criticism there.
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
755
Dealing with injuries is pretty much a pre-requisite for United managers. We've always got first choice players out
True but our 2nd choices are nonexistent, which has rarely been the case for a club our size. We're definitely feeling the effect of the squad cull; more thought should have gone into it.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
2,359
Location
The rainbow's end
I agree with a lot of that tbh. The thing that leaves me wondering is the fact that Fred, with better match fitness, is starting to really improve his performances. Had he been available since the start, I think Pogba would have eventually replaced Pereira, basically completing our midfield and attack and giving it a different dynamic. Instead, important players got injured and you know how it went.


But at the end of the day, I'm not really defending Ole, just wondering how things could have been had we been playing with the lineup I mentioned from day one. The fact that we weren't is also partly on Ole, so he's not free from criticism there.
Yeah, it's quite plausible that it wouldn't be that bad but i doubt that it would have made any significant difference as far as the bigger picture is concerned. Don't forget that we were still utilizing tactics with Pogba as an AM when the dip in form occurred last season. People eventually got fed up with Moyes, LvG and Mourinho because it looked like we were heading towards a dead end with them. After a calendar year, i feel the same about Solskjaer. For me, the argument about him being unfortunate with injuries would have much more gravitas if he had shown that he can create some surplus-value on the pitch with the squad available. The same goes for the argument that he needs two more windows and half a billion pounds to spend. We look like we are one of the worst teams in the PL when we actually try to play football. I still cling to a tiny bit of hope that things will get a bit better when McT & Pogba return myself but it's mostly because i don't want things to implode in a way that the pejorative adjectives about him will flood the forum.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
44,874
Location
Hope, We Lose
True but our 2nd choices are nonexistent, which has rarely been the case for a club our size. We're definitely feeling the effect of the squad cull; more thought should have gone into it.
We would have had them if we didnt sell Lukaku, gave Ander a contract he was happy with and didnt loan Smalling out
 

billybee99

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
370
Ole doesn't have the players to work with. The current squad is the worst squad since the early 1980's
Horseshit. A top manager has this squad fighting for top 4. Klopp, Pep, hell even Brendan - they would have this squad in top 4.
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
3,663
Horseshit. A top manager has this squad fighting for top 4. Klopp, Pep, hell even Brendan - they would have this squad in top 4.
I really don’t believe that. Take Pogba out of that midfield and the front 6 are not good enough. Rashford and Martial are ok but not consistent. James is still adapting from playing a division below. The less said about the midfield the better.

Put it this way our second best midfielder is Scott McTominay.
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
3,663
We would have had them if we didnt sell Lukaku, gave Ander a contract he was happy with and didnt loan Smalling out
Herrera was off before Ole arrived. He wanted a ridiculous contract. Now we can argue was he worth that but I expect he knew he could get a big joining fee if he left on a free.

Lukaku knew he wasn’t first choice the minute Ole came in, he was dropped immediately. Lukaku said in an interview he knew his time was up when Ole asked him to play wide. Now I would say that’s poor management by Ole but I think it’s clear Lukaku wanted to go anyway. The club simply can’t have a £60m asset sat on the bench that isn’t happy. The biggest mistake was not getting anyone in with that money. And I cannot understand how a club as cash rich as us need to wait until we had sold him before we could use the money.

It’s a similar story with Smalling. Maguire comes in and it’s clear we need one less defender. The biggest mistake was letting him go out on loan whilst you have Rojo, Jones and Bailly as back up. But then we know we can’t get rid of those 3. Rojo has a terrible injury record and I’m sure he wasn’t fit so likely would fail a medical. Same goes for Bailly. And Jones was put on a stupid 4 year contract that no other club would ever pay such an average player. Knowing he wanted to get a CB back in, Jones should never of had his contract extended to free up room in the squad.

Is any of that Ole’s fault? Maybe Lukaku. The rest falls to Matt Judge and Ed Woodward.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
44,874
Location
Hope, We Lose
Herrera was off before Ole arrived. He wanted a ridiculous contract. Now we can argue was he worth that but I expect he knew he could get a big joining fee if he left on a free.

Lukaku knew he wasn’t first choice the minute Ole came in, he was dropped immediately. Lukaku said in an interview he knew his time was up when Ole asked him to play wide. Now I would say that’s poor management by Ole but I think it’s clear Lukaku wanted to go anyway. The club simply can’t have a £60m asset sat on the bench that isn’t happy. The biggest mistake was not getting anyone in with that money. And I cannot understand how a club as cash rich as us need to wait until we had sold him before we could use the money.

It’s a similar story with Smalling. Maguire comes in and it’s clear we need one less defender. The biggest mistake was letting him go out on loan whilst you have Rojo, Jones and Bailly as back up. But then we know we can’t get rid of either. Rojo has a terrible injury record and I’m sure he wasn’t fit so likely would fail a medical. Same goes for Bailly. And Jones was put on a stupid 4 year contract that no other club would ever pay such an average player. Knowing he wanted to get a CB back in, Jones should never of had his contract extended to free up room in the squad.

Is any of that Ole’s fault? Maybe Lukaku. The rest falls to Matt Judge and Ed Woodward.
Ole could have kept all of them, it clearly wasnt important to him. Now he doesnt have the squad? He couldnt keep the players happy. Other clubs have to keep even better players happy enough to be subs.
 

Bobcat

Full Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
3,528
Location
Behind the curtains, leering at the neighbors
Ole doesn't have the players to work with. The current squad is the worst squad since the early 1980's
This. I lost faith in Ole, but the squad is still fecking shit. Our "best player" (Martial) is incredibly inconsistent and constantly injured, same with Rashford minus the injures. In midfield we have one good midfielder who has not been fit all season and a raw kid from the academy, the rest are shite. We have one good RB, one good CB, a teenager at LB and the rest are mid/bottom table quality

I reckon Ole will be sacked before the season is over, but whoever takes over still has a monumental task ahead of them. Above them they have a clueless clown posing as a DoF and eneath them he has a squad full of overpaid frauds and deadwood
 

The Bloody-Nine

Full Member
Joined
May 21, 2017
Messages
5,687
Our players certainly didn't look too bad there. Could it be that we have only one way of playing which is effective against teams who have a go, but are clueless against teams who sit back?
 

killerboi2

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Messages
671
So then who exactly in this team is United quality (like treble, 07/08, RVN quality) Rashford maybe, Pogba is gone, Martial? Average midfield, below-average defense, deadbeats like Jones, Young, Mata still here. This is a midtable team in a fitting position.
 

lsd

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
3,639
We are seeing now how good fred can be when he plays under a good manager
 

SteveW

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
6,327
If people can't see the difference tonight with Scott back in the midfield then I don't know what to say to them. Injuries and lack of squad depth have killed us.
 

SteveW

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
6,327
Our players certainly didn't look too bad there. Could it be that we have only one way of playing which is effective against teams who have a go, but are clueless against teams who sit back?
Having a midfield was the difference.
 

dev1l

Full Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
7,594
Scott made the difference. He was not perfect but we don't have alternatives to him.
Mourinho had the luxury of having Ndombele, Eriksen and Lo Celso on the bench (that s around 200+ million worth of midfielders). And still they didn't create a lot.