The “Ole doesn’t have the players to work with” myth

sp_107

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We got this result against better players by Playing “Young, lingard, Perrera and Greenwood( sure he will be a top player in future but right now he is just a good prospect)...Imagine we had better players in those positions.

if you look at Ole’s previous results against Chelsea,spurs, Pool it doesn’t look like he is out of depth.
 

Leftback99

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So much better just by having McTominay back. This season would look very different if we had useful options fit all season. Amazed people still try deny it.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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If people can't see the difference tonight with Scott back in the midfield then I don't know what to say to them. Injuries and lack of squad depth have killed us.
The difference tonight wasn't McTominay (who's had better games for us). The difference was that the manager didn't tinker with all the attacking roles and the formations because his main man was injured like he did all season. Instead, he utilized his best attacking option in his best role and, voila, he scored two goals (and won a penalty). So, maybe, just maybe, we don't have the worst squad in the PL, as some suggest, and this team can do well with the right instructions?
 

tomaldinho1

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If people can't see the difference tonight with Scott back in the midfield then I don't know what to say to them. Injuries and lack of squad depth have killed us.
One player doesn't change us entirely - it's an attitude thing. We were all up for it tonight, across the board we were winning every second ball and it was them misplacing the ball and making individual errors. I think our team is good to be in the race for 4th we just sometimes seem to shrink into our shells a bit when 'smaller' teams put us under pressure. We should be able to come out all guns firing like today against all teams, not just in the big games.

Plus a fit Rashford against Aurier is 90mins of pure beauty.
 

SteveW

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The difference tonight wasn't McTominay (who's had better games for us). The difference was that the manager didn't tinker with all the attacking roles and the formations because his main man was injured like he did all season. Instead, he utilized his best attacking option in his best role and, voila, he scored two goals (and won a penalty). So, maybe, just maybe, we don't have the worst squad in the PL, as some suggest, and this team can do well with the right instructions?
I don't know what to say to you. Clueless
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I don't know what to say to you. Clueless
Maybe try to answer? Put Rashford upfront and use Pereira or Lingard on the wings, like he did in all previous matches, and we wouldn't be able to expose their wekness at the RB position.

But i know, according to you, anyone who doesn't believe that Solskjaer is the reincarnation of Ferguson is clueless. Suit yourself.
 

He'sRaldo

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If people can't see the difference tonight with Scott back in the midfield then I don't know what to say to them. Injuries and lack of squad depth have killed us.
That's what I'm thinking as well.

Put Pogba in place of Lingard, and Shaw for Young, and we'd be looking much better. No denying that.
 

SteveW

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Maybe try to answer? Put Rashford upfront and use Pereira or Lingard on the wings, like he did in all previous matches, and we wouldn't be able to expose their wekness at the RB position.

But i know, according to you, anyone who doesn't believe that Solskjaer is the reincarnation of Ferguson is clueless. Suit yourself.
Do you even walk our games? Rashford's been on the wing for weeks. Pereira has been filling in in midfield and Lingard has barely played.

Don't know why I'm even wasting my time responding to this nonsense since you clearly haven't even been following the games.
 

SteveW

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One player doesn't change us entirely - it's an attitude thing. We were all up for it tonight, across the board we were winning every second ball and it was them misplacing the ball and making individual errors. I think our team is good to be in the race for 4th we just sometimes seem to shrink into our shells a bit when 'smaller' teams put us under pressure. We should be able to come out all guns firing like today against all teams, not just in the big games.

Plus a fit Rashford against Aurier is 90mins of pure beauty.
Villa walked through our midfield. They controlled it tonight. Pereira is a completely weakling and a passenger. You can't carry players like that in a PL midfield.
 

buckooo1978

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just for balance here I think we have to point out Spurs were really poor tonight

Kane isolated, Son poor, Moura anonymous etc
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I would have Alderweireld/Ake and Smalling/Lindelof as a central pairing. Maguire, with his less than impressive of mobility, is not a player to build a defence around. Especially if we want to play any other style than low block/counter.

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that we needed a centreback during the summer. Only that we needed a midfielder more. The ideal would have been to buy both. Not buying a midfielder would have hurt us more than not buying a centreback. Our inability to improve our midfield despite spending £180m on it is simply because 2 of the 3 players brought in were short term or simply not good enough. If you end up paying for something that is actually not that good, it will not work (I wonder how they scouted Fred? 6 min youtube compilation of his game against City?).

Regarding our recruitment: If the people in charge believe that we will be able to challenge while by playing the type of football we currently are playing (counter attacking, low block and no emphasis on possession) then the players we brought in are good transfers that suit the type of football they think will bring success. The reason I think our recruitment has been bad is down to the case that I strongly believe that any type of football that does not base itself on any type of possession and controlling games against weaker opposition will not work long term. Hence my opinion that our transfers or transfer policy have been really bad.

James is a low risk, high reward transfer with the abilities to perform in a counter attacking setup. Against a balanced defence, however, he is not nearly as productive.

I can't excactly pinpoint the type of football we are playing, but it is not that different to how we played under Mourinho. We might try pressing high for periods of some games with our attacking players but this is ineffective due to the rest of the team not following.
You still don’t get the point what the club and the manager are trying to do now. We are doing rebuilding process. Aldeweireld has been shocking this season, signing him is basically a sign of the club will do another Matic & Sanchez singing, he has no other reason to come here but for money, doesn’t make any sense to sign him to play him regular for rebuilding plan.

You don’t build a defense with Smalling who can’t even play from the back or even a slow and can be bullied centre back like Lindelof who is also less impressive than Maguire on the ball. Ake would cost 50m and that’s also a lot of money from someone who is less proven than Maguire. We are lacking leadership which something the manager is currently working on by adding some player who can potentially be our captain in our squad for the next 5 years, and Maguire is better candidate than Ake, Smalling & Lindelof.

You don’t read mate. I‘ll say it again. We are basically need both centre back & midfield equally, do you not know the meaning equally?? You can’t make an excuse saying we need midfield more, what prove do you have? The proof is that when we tried to solve the midfield first we were still outside top 5 last season.

Mate, James has been very good and the point of signing him isn’t to achieve instant success but to develop and improve him Because he has great potential which is part of rebuilding plan. You are thinking like Mourinho now, only want to sign top players for a short period of time to be in comfortable place.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Do you even walk our games? Rashford's been on the wing for weeks. Pereira has been filling in in midfield and Lingard has barely played.

Don't know why I'm even wasting my time responding to this nonsense since you clearly haven't even been following the games.
Try to be polite for once towards the people you don't agree with, will you?

He started Greenwood upfront tonight when everybody expected Rashy upfront. Why? Because that's what he was doing when Martial was injured the first time. That or 3 at the back which was what most people were expecting in the match-day thread.

I pointed out that he did well by not changing the formation (with Martial missing) and by not removing Rashford from his best position on the pitch. The instructions he gave were correct this time and it showed. This wasn't the case in the past. And it had hurt us as much as the injuries whether you like to believe it or not.
 

tomaldinho1

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Villa walked through our midfield. They controlled it tonight. Pereira is a completely weakling and a passenger. You can't carry players like that in a PL midfield.
Villa set up properly though. If you're playing us at the moment you need to sit deep and counter because we really struggle to create unless we're countering, Mou named a unbalanced attacking line up because he wanted to prove a point and we overran their central midfield which was basically Winks + Sissoko (who spent the whole game covering Aurier). Don't get me wrong, McT was great but he alone wasn't the difference.
 

Fosu-Mens

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You still don’t get the point what the club and the manager are trying to do now. We are doing rebuilding process. Aldeweireld has been shocking this season, signing him is basically a sign of the club will do another Matic & Sanchez singing, he has no other reason to come here but for money, doesn’t make any sense to sign him to play him regular for rebuilding plan.

You don’t build a defense with Smalling who can’t even play from the back or even a slow and can be bullied centre back like Lindelof who is also less impressive than Maguire on the ball. Ake would cost 50m and that’s also a lot of money from someone who is less proven than Maguire. We are lacking leadership which something the manager is currently working on by adding some player who can potentially be our captain in our squad for the next 5 years, and Maguire is better candidate than Ake, Smalling & Lindelof.

You don’t read mate. I‘ll say it again. We are basically need both centre back & midfield equally, do you not know the meaning equally?? You can’t make an excuse saying we need midfield more, what prove do you have? The proof is that when we tried to solve the midfield first we were still outside top 5 last season.

Mate, James has been very good and the point of signing him isn’t to achieve instant success but to develop and improve him Because he has great potential which is part of rebuilding plan. You are thinking like Mourinho now, only want to sign top players for a short period of time to be in comfortable place.
Oh i get that this is another rebuilding process, I just don't think it will lead to anything good based on the people involved, type of players brought in and type of football played.

Lindelof is better on the ball compared to Maguire. And you don't build a defence around either of them. Ake, on the other hand, I would build a defence around.

We can disagree on what was most important. Ideally, we would have both, which could have been accomplished.

James is a pace merchant, which suits the type of football we play now. Hopefully he can develop other elements of his game.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Oh i get that this is another rebuilding process, I just don't think it will lead to anything good based on the people involved, type of players brought in and type of football played.

Lindelof is better on the ball compared to Maguire. And you don't build a defence around either of them. Ake, on the other hand, I would build a defence around.

We can disagree on what was most important. Ideally, we would have both, which could have been accomplished.

James is a pace merchant, which suits the type of football we play now. Hopefully he can develop other elements of his game.
What a shocking statement to even call Lindelof better on the ball which sums up your post basically. Smalling made more forward passes than Lindelof last season. What I have mentioned so far are based on reality, while you are just making assumption to suit your argument.
 

Fosu-Mens

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What a shocking statement to even call Lindelof better on the ball which sums up your post basically. Smalling made more forward passes than Lindelof last season. What I have mentioned so far are based on reality, while you are just making assumption to suit your argument.
So Maguire is more "proven" than Ake? That is based on reality? Please explain what you define "proven" as.

And how many of Smalling's forward passes hit the target? How many were good passes with intent or disguised as a clearance?
 

Dante

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Oh i get that this is another rebuilding process, I just don't think it will lead to anything good based on the people involved, type of players brought in and type of football played.

Lindelof is better on the ball compared to Maguire. And you don't build a defence around either of them. Ake, on the other hand, I would build a defence around.

We can disagree on what was most important. Ideally, we would have both, which could have been accomplished.

James is a pace merchant, which suits the type of football we play now. Hopefully he can develop other elements of his game.
He's not just a pace merchant. Those other elements of his game are already there.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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So Maguire is more "proven" than Ake? That is based on reality? Please explain what you define "proven" as.

And how many of Smalling's forward passes hit the target? How many were good passes with intent or disguised as a clearance?
Maguire has been playing more games in his professional career than Ake himself in both country & clubs. It’s not about how many but it’s about you want to play from the back by playing the ball forward is what you are called a ball playing centre back not someone who stays safe and coward. Clearances aren‘t considered as passing mate, they have their own numbers for clearances.

So it’s your turn now to explain.
What evidence do you have to say that we need midfielder more than a centre back?
What evidence do you have to even say James is just pace merchant?
What evidence do you have Lindelof-Smalling paired and signing midfield will be better than our current situation?
 

buckooo1978

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And why might that be? same reason liverpool and chelsea have been poor against us?
well it's obvious that players worked hard and closed spaces but there is also obviously an issue with Spurs use of the ball - they contributed to their downfall - the openings they had were created by misplaced passes and sloppy play - notably by McTominay a couple of times, Young and Maguire I noted. Spurs lacked creativity overall.

For the record Chelsea weren't poor against us - they were the better team for the first hour.

It was a hard working, disciplined performance but Rashford's brilliance was the main reason we won and didn't draw. We know Rashford is going to be that way at times - like Marital fantastic against Norwich, poor against Bournemouth, good against Brighton
 

Ikon

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People like you make me embarrassed to be a United fan . He doesn't deserve better players ? So you want him to totally fail or you want United as a whole to totally fail ? I've seen us play the best football since Ferguson left under Ole but I suppose you forgot that . We are shite that's the bottom line but for the 1st time since Ferguson left there is a glimmer of something better . Thank god the people who actually attend matches can see what is actually happening because views like yours make me want to poke my eyes out
Well said that man...!!
 

Fosu-Mens

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Maguire has been playing more games in his professional career than Ake himself in both country & clubs. It’s not about how many but it’s about you want to play from the back by playing the ball forward is what you are called a ball playing centre back not someone who stays safe and coward. Clearances aren‘t considered as passing mate, they have their own numbers for clearances.

So it’s your turn now to explain.
What evidence do you have to say that we need midfielder more than a centre back?
What evidence do you have to even say James is just pace merchant?
What evidence do you have Lindelof-Smalling paired and signing midfield will be better than our current situation?
Ake has more games in the EPL if I'm not mistaken, or roughly the same? Played more games compared to Maguire age at a higher level... I would not say that Maguire is any more proven than Ake. And if we argue about their abilities I suspect we again will be in a disagreement.

Midfielder over centreback:
Options for CB: Smalling, Lindelof, Jones, Bailly, Rojo, Tuanzebe.
Options for Midfield(2/3): PP, McT, Fred, Matic (Pereira)

Just in numbers, there is a difference. Can you honestly say that you would rather decide to invest in a CB, rather than a midfielder, given the alternatives available?

James is by far most effective when he got space to operate in offensively. If he had the same pace as Pereira i think he would really struggle as a player.

I have no evidence of that, given that this would be a hypothetical scenario that would be impossible to simulate. And i assume that you would have the same difficulties in proving that i would be wrong in my statement...
 

Gator Nate

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The difference tonight wasn't McTominay (who's had better games for us). The difference was that the manager didn't tinker with all the attacking roles and the formations because his main man was injured like he did all season. Instead, he utilized his best attacking option in his best role and, voila, he scored two goals (and won a penalty). So, maybe, just maybe, we don't have the worst squad in the PL, as some suggest, and this team can do well with the right instructions?
Try to be polite for once towards the people you don't agree with, will you?

He started Greenwood upfront tonight when everybody expected Rashy upfront. Why? Because that's what he was doing when Martial was injured the first time. That or 3 at the back which was what most people were expecting in the match-day thread.

I pointed out that he did well by not changing the formation (with Martial missing) and by not removing Rashford from his best position on the pitch. The instructions he gave were correct this time and it showed. This wasn't the case in the past. And it had hurt us as much as the injuries whether you like to believe it or not.
Ole finally has Greenwood to a point where he can trust him to start a league game, against a big-six opponent. It's that personnel thing again.

On the other hand, without McTominay and Pogba, Ole has extremely limited options in the midfield. Fred and... Pereira/Lingard/Mata/Matic. Pick two. But once you do, shut up about it, because you didn't pick the other two, who you'd complain about as well. Or you can start Garner, against Tottenham. Yeah, that'll play well. But with more experience, Ole will have yet another option.

For the record, I like Greenwood as a scoring threat ahead of Martial. With a McT/Fred/Pogba midfield, Martial's other skills aren't the keys to success as when missing Pobga. But then, Ole's 4/2/3/1 interchanges with 4/3/3 very easily. More options.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Ole finally has Greenwood to a point where he can trust him to start a league game, against a big-six opponent. It's that personnel thing again.

On the other hand, without McTominay and Pogba, Ole has extremely limited options in the midfield. Fred and... Pereira/Lingard/Mata/Matic. Pick two. But once you do, shut up about it, because you didn't pick the other two, who you'd complain about as well. Or you can start Garner, against Tottenham. Yeah, that'll play well. But with more experience, Ole will have yet another option.

For the record, I like Greenwood as a scoring threat ahead of Martial. With a McT/Fred/Pogba midfield, Martial's other skills aren't the keys to success as when missing Pobga. But then, Ole's 4/2/3/1 interchanges with 4/3/3 very easily. More options.
We weren't playing only top-six opponents during the time Martial was out. Solskjaer himself admitted, before the Liverpool game, that the tactics needed to change. Tactics that had Pereira in a role that didn't suit him at all (as a right-winger), had removed James from the right side where he had a good understanding with AWB and also had Rashford in a role that made him ineffective. All this merry-go-round because Martial was out. It cost us against Southampton, Arsenal, WHU and Newcastle. McTominay was available then (what i was trying to say to the other poster). Anyway, the point i was trying to make is that the most crucial aspect of his tactical approach last night was his decision not to tinker many things but use his best attacking options in their preferred roles instead. Not to claim that McTominay's absence wasn't important. In a thread where his most ardent supporters suggest that we shouldn't be complaining because Martial was injured. I fully agree with your last sentence.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Ake has more games in the EPL if I'm not mistaken, or roughly the same? Played more games compared to Maguire age at a higher level... I would not say that Maguire is any more proven than Ake. And if we argue about their abilities I suspect we again will be in a disagreement.

Midfielder over centreback:
Options for CB: Smalling, Lindelof, Jones, Bailly, Rojo, Tuanzebe.
Options for Midfield(2/3): PP, McT, Fred, Matic (Pereira)

Just in numbers, there is a difference. Can you honestly say that you would rather decide to invest in a CB, rather than a midfielder, given the alternatives available?

James is by far most effective when he got space to operate in offensively. If he had the same pace as Pereira i think he would really struggle as a player.
Maguire & Ake had about the same in EPL but you need to know as well that Maguire has more games in his international & his pro career.

You are talking about quantity not quality, you can have as many players in the position but if the quality is not good enough for the manager’s requirement then what’s the point? We are playing from the back now, what’s the point relying on defenders like Jones & Smalling who can’t play from the back? What’s your point for the midfield? 4 or 5 names for midfield 2. Is that not more than enough? Very rare to see 3 of the 4 or 5 options got injured in the same time.

Look at what happened last season when we had Herrera & those centre backs options. We were bloody awful. The point of rebuilding process is not to achieve decent season or top 4 for one season only and take a backward step the next following season but to actually rebuild the squad with quality or potential players, improve them & develop them into top players who can bring the team into success after 2-3 years rebuild the squad. That includes Daniel James who is still young, can improve and has talent to be top winger. James is not one pace pony, he can cross with both feet, can dribble & has the right attitude.


I have no evidence of that, given that this would be a hypothetical scenario that would be impossible to simulate. And i assume that you would have the same difficulties in proving that i would be wrong in my statement...
It’s not impossible to show the evidence if you already know what happened and I had no difficulties to prove you wrong.

Midfield & CB issues - Last season we had Herrera & we had Jones & Smalling paired with Lindelof. We had enough covers for both midfield & centre back but what happened? We finished out side top 5. Is this not an evidence to tell you that we need quality over quantity and that we need both midfield & centre back equally? Is this not an evidence to tell you that the pair of Smalling Lindelof with Herrera in midfield last season still didn’t work out at all?
 

Foxbatt

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Let's see if we can play like this for the next few games at least.
Though Rashford played well the first goal was a keeper mistake.
Also twice we have allowed a player to flick the ball above his head and turn and score. It simply is not good enough. If and when Pogba comes back I hope Ole doesn't drop Fred but play Scott and Fred with Pogba pushed a bit more forward.
 

MaxiPaxi

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One week Fred has turned the corner and now he's worth every penny and you've got McSauce beside him.. next we need Saul and about 7 other players. If only... We're flip-flopping every fecking game. We've got Gini fecking Wijnaldum, Henderson and Fabinho cutting teams up with their penetration, their passing etc. Remember the days when we used to laugh at two out of three of those..? Also the fact that Liverpools largely don't penetrate teams, they aren't particularly creative. They're well fecking coached that is all.


Point being this thread is on point at the very core. We should be beating Rochdale, Watfard, Newcastle, Palace, Aston Villa and feck-tonne of other teams. Sheffield fecking United -- Okay, decent side.. but they made us look like a fecking pub team for about 65 minutes. feck that. Ole is doing a decent job, relieving some of our players duties but other than that, he's the worse manager than Paul Jewell. He's alongside Lawrie Sanchez and other punts that we saw over the decades. Get rid of him now.
 
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joker00

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VS the "Klopp did it with Lallana, Henderson, Lovren, Matip .. and no bench" reality