The “Ole In” Brigade

TRUERED89

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
2,365
Location
England
It never ceases to amaze me what people consider 'giving time' to a manager means. Every fan trots out that soundbite....'we need to give manager X time'....and then 6 months later they are calling for their head citing 'no signs of progress'.

I would say 'time' is three seasons. After three seasons, the manager has had the chance to implement new coaches, new coaching and training methods, new rules and standards and turn over as many players in the squad as they deemed necessary

'Time' is not 14-months. Regardless of whether you think Ole is a good manager, or whether Jose, LvG or Moyes where good managers.....'time' should constitute three years minimum.
3 years? You have to draw the line somewhere. 3 years is fine if you're still on the cusp of achieving your goals, right now we're a million miles off! What if we finish 17th would you still want to allow 3 years? top 4 is the bare minimum (at least it should be for United). No CL, Ed will pull the trigger in May.
 

Alabaster Codify7

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
6,553
Location
Wales
It never ceases to amaze me what people consider 'giving time' to a manager means. Every fan trots out that soundbite....'we need to give manager X time'....and then 6 months later they are calling for their head citing 'no signs of progress'.

I would say 'time' is three seasons. After three seasons, the manager has had the chance to implement new coaches, new coaching and training methods, new rules and standards and turn over as many players in the squad as they deemed necessary

'Time' is not 14-months. Regardless of whether you think Ole is a good manager, or whether Jose, LvG or Moyes where good managers.....'time' should constitute three years minimum.
I would agree in terms of length of service, but 'time' isn't dished out without any kind of sign that the person deserves to be given it. Everything Ole is doing is below-par, and nothing suggests it's going to get any better either. What we're seeing right now, and have been since August, is exactly what we saw for a few months after Ole was made permanent last season.

That is with £200m worth of new players.

What evidence is there to suggest things will improve? If anything, the evidence all points towards this being The Norm now under this manager.
 

Massive Spanner

Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
15,965
Location
Tool shed
I may be wrong here, but did not Pogba get injured after Soton? IIRC we got robbed blind by Palace in the 2nd game, got robbed by Wolves the 3rd game, and were admittedly pretty shit, but also got robbed by Soton when they managed to get 1-1 with 10 men
He's started six games including Rochdale (which we drew) and we had a grand total of 6 points out of 15 in them.

I've seen people use Pogba and Martial as an excuse on multiple occasions, hell when Martial was injured there were people on him proclaiming him to be the missing link and the player Ole needed to turn results around, but ultimately we've been really, consistently shit no matter who's fit or injured.

Maybe we will be better with a fit Pogba and McT alongside Bruno but I find it difficult to see it, because the real problem is that our manager hasn't a clue how to beat teams who sit back against us.
 

shaky

Full Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
2,117
Because that displays regression, not progression. 2nd to 6th to 8th. Hardly screams a club moving in the right direction.
Progression isn't an instant thing. Personally, I have more optimism for the future with our current squad than with any other squad we've had in the past 6/7 years. Being 8th right now is not that relevant to the long term. Win this weekend and we'll be within 3 points of 4th, but again, short term results aren't really relevant to how I judge the long term prospects. This isn't a defence of the overall job Ole has done, it's just an assessment of how I see the current roster of players and the potential they have going forward.
 

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
1,274
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
I may be wrong here, but did not Pogba get injured after Soton? IIRC we got robbed blind by Palace in the 2nd game, got robbed by Wolves the 3rd game, and were admittedly pretty shit, but also got robbed by Soton when they managed to get 1-1 with 10 men
It's all well and good picking individual games but at the end of the season the table doesn't lie. Let's just see where we end up. Like all his predecessors before him if he doesn't make top 4 he has to go.
 
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
5,543
Location
Manchester
More like Souness! Or getting dangerously close to it. They say he was the one who truly ruined Liverpool.
I'd say
Moyes = Souness (terrible, set the club back years)

LVG = Houllier (not bad but not good enough, signed a load of shite players)

Mourinho = Benitez (did pretty well, won a european trophy, shit on a stick football, wheels fell off in his last season)

Ole = Hodgson (seems completely clueless & out of his depth)

The parallels are scary haha
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
5,641
Okay, £150m worth of new players. It's still an absolutely abysmal return to be on our worst points haul given the games played.
It is a terrible return but you and I both know the players signed were not for instant success, we knew all along we are building something for 2-3 years down the line.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
25,072
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
It never ceases to amaze me what people consider 'giving time' to a manager means. Every fan trots out that soundbite....'we need to give manager X time'....and then 6 months later they are calling for their head citing 'no signs of progress'.

I would say 'time' is three seasons. After three seasons, the manager has had the chance to implement new coaches, new coaching and training methods, new rules and standards and turn over as many players in the squad as they deemed necessary

'Time' is not 14-months. Regardless of whether you think Ole is a good manager, or whether Jose, LvG or Moyes where good managers.....'time' should constitute three years minimum.
Which manager needs 3 years to show his tactics?

I'm not talking about result or trophies. Just 3 years to show his phylosophy.

Why should we give ole 3 years when brendan can do it in 3 months, shouldnt he gets the job then? Ancelotti can do it in 3 weeks.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
5,641
Why should we give ole 3 years when brendan can do it in 3 months, shouldnt he gets the job then? Ancelotti can do it in 3 weeks.
Not being funny but there is a thing called new manager bounce.

Even we saw that.
 

sunama

Baghdad Bob
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
14,991
I never expected 4th place. Quite a large proportion predicted a lower place finish.
Actually, a lot of fans expected top 3, with top 4 at a minimum.
The general rhetoric was that after Ole has a full pre-season with the players, we'll be unstoppable.
As it happens, that pre-season is what finished our season off, before it even started.

It’s called a realistic outlook. Not lowering of standards, just a realisation of where we are as a club and what is required for us to get back.
The fact that you are quite happy for us to finish outside the top 4, tells me that standards have fallen.
When Moyes got 7th, were you against him being fired?

The Swap, sell, buy, repeat policy of managers and players is more detrimental right now than if we had a feckin Monkey managing the team.
I partly agree with this.
Jose did win us 2 trophies and got us 2nd place, using the philosophy you mentioned above.

Money is drying up lads, feck league position.
In other words: we need to lower our standards.

We need a balanced side with quality,
Agreed.

Ole buys pretty well, I’m more concerned with that than anything else.
He bought so well that we are currently in 7th place.
In terms of results (and let's accept that results are what count), this is the worst we have been in about 30 years.

PS. It looks like I am picking on you, which is not my intention.
It just so happened that your single post summarised exactly what Ole-inners are saying, though you have tried to use logic to back up your argument (which is a good thing).
 

SAFMUTD

Full Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
3,443
Embarassing that we won trophies... Never heard that one before.

United winning a European trophy was brilliant under Mourinho because for a club our stature we always bottle it in Europe. FA Cups are never to be sniffed at either, they all count.
“European trophy” the fact that we went so low that we play that tournament says it all.

Just imagine the world class clubs competing and celebrating winning the europa league.

Top clubs when rarely end up playing the europa league its because the fail in UCL group stage, and most use their second squad from that point on or lower their guns because theyre not interested on that second tier trophy, lets be real the only reason why we wanted to win it was to get to the UCL because we weren’t able to get there by getting top 4, the same as today.
 

SAFMUTD

Full Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
3,443
Not being funny but there is a thing called new manager bounce.

Even we saw that.
I dont think what Brendan is doing can be qualify as new bounce, Leicester has been consistent for many months now.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
5,641
I dont think what Brendan is doing can be qualify as new bounce, Leicester has been consistent for many months now.
Yes but you would appreciate that he has had the luxury of the same players to chose from until recently where Ndidi is injured and you see a few results not going their way.

Schmeichel 25, Ricardo 24, Soyuncu 24, Evans 25, Chilwell 20, Madison 24, Ndidi 21, Tielemans 24, Vardy 23, Barnes 23, Perez 22

11 of their players have played 22 games or more and 10 of them are considered first choice.

Manutd have had 6 players to play 22 or more games.
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
32,259
Location
Egypt
“European trophy” the fact that we went so low that we play that tournament says it all.

Just imagine the world class clubs competing and celebrating winning the europa league.

Top clubs when rarely end up playing the europa league its because the fail in UCL group stage, and most use their second squad from that point on or lower their guns because theyre not interested on that second tier trophy, lets be real the only reason why we wanted to win it was to get to the UCL because we weren’t able to get there by getting top 4, the same as today.
Chelsea celebrated it last year so what ? The EL final day was the best day we have had in the post Fergie years.
 

Alabaster Codify7

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
6,553
Location
Wales
Chelsea celebrated it last year so what ? The EL final day was the best day we have had in the post Fergie years.


By a country mile, too. Now that's what I would refer to as spoiled and entitled - in context, if Ole's 3yr Rebuild actually becomes A Thing - that was the best moment we are likely to see in 10yrs since SAF left.
 

Shamana

Not Shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
2,824
I would still like ask the Ole in crowd, who was your favourite candidate to become Man Utds permanent manager when it was obvious that Mourinho was getting sacked?
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
5,641
I would still like ask the Ole in crowd, who was your favourite candidate to become Man Utds permanent manager when it was obvious that Mourinho was getting sacked?
What difference does that make? The club don't hire based on fans favourite manager.
 

Shamana

Not Shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
2,824
What difference does that make? The club don't hire based on fans favourite manager.
I'm just interested in which mangagers did ole fans rate as the best fit for the united job? I certainly didn't see anyone suggesting Ole before he became interim manager, so I'm just curious which managers they actually rate as a fit for united that's available.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
5,641
I'm just interested in which mangagers did ole fans rate as the best fit for the united job? I certainly didn't see anyone suggesting Ole before he became interim manager, so I'm just curious which managers they actually rate as a fit for united that's available.
I think Poch is perfect fit for Manutd. He fits with the young, british core, has the capability of playing good football as well.
 

The Bloody-Nine

Full Member
Joined
May 21, 2017
Messages
5,834
I'm just interested in which mangagers did ole fans rate as the best fit for the united job? I certainly didn't see anyone suggesting Ole before he became interim manager, so I'm just curious which managers they actually rate as a fit for united that's available.
Literally no Man Utd supporter would have said Ole.
 

Shamana

Not Shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
2,824
Literally no Man Utd supporter would have said Ole.
Which is why I'm curious. Generally they say, Poch is a loser has never won a trophy. Okay Allegri then? No shit defensive football, we don't want that. Conte? Same. Nagellsmann never heard of him.

Im geniuenly curious which managers apart from Ole they actually rate as fit for us.
 

The Bloody-Nine

Full Member
Joined
May 21, 2017
Messages
5,834
Which is why I'm curious. Generally they say, Poch is a loser has never won a trophy. Okay Allegri then? No shit defensive football, we don't want that. Conte? Same. Nagellsmann never heard of him.

Im geniuenly curious which managers apart from Ole they actually rate as fit for us.
They will also tell you that Woodward is completely incompetent, yet at the same time pledge blind allegiance to the guy he entrusted to carry out this 'huge rebuild'. Despite his only experience at the highest level resulting in relegation. And heading for another one. Naturally it goes without saying that he has zero experience of carrying out any kind of successful rebuild.

It's actually kind of funny.
 

Leftback99

Full Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
5,752
Okay, £150m worth of new players. It's still an absolutely abysmal return to be on our worst points haul given the games played.
We also sold Lukaku for £70m, got nothing for Herrera who was at least a £25m player, and next to nothing for Sanchez and Smalling for the season.

We could have sold Pogba for £80m last Summer and got the same contribution this season, giving us a negative net spend at the same time.

Results don't look so surprising when viewed on player values we've had available this season compared to last.

It's not as good a story as "we've spent £200m why are we miles better?!" though.
 

SAFMUTD

Full Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
3,443
Yes but you would appreciate that he has had the luxury of the same players to chose from until recently where Ndidi is injured and you see a few results not going their way.

Schmeichel 25, Ricardo 24, Soyuncu 24, Evans 25, Chilwell 20, Madison 24, Ndidi 21, Tielemans 24, Vardy 23, Barnes 23, Perez 22

11 of their players have played 22 games or more and 10 of them are considered first choice.

Manutd have had 6 players to play 22 or more games.
Thats just making excuses, all the times Ole gets compared with other managers the main argument is that the other manager has a better squad, no matter which team.
 

Stadjer

Full Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
4,023
Location
The Netherlands
I'd say
Moyes = Souness (terrible, set the club back years)

LVG = Houllier (not bad but not good enough, signed a load of shite players)

Mourinho = Benitez (did pretty well, won a european trophy, shit on a stick football, wheels fell off in his last season)

Ole = Hodgson (seems completely clueless & out of his depth)

The parallels are scary haha
Who will become our Klopp? Or do we need a Rodgers before that?
 

Alabaster Codify7

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
6,553
Location
Wales
We also sold Lukaku for £70m, got nothing for Herrera who was at least a £25m player, and next to nothing for Sanchez and Smalling for the season.

We could have sold Pogba for £80m last Summer and got the same contribution this season, giving us a negative net spend at the same time.

Results don't look so surprising when viewed on player values we've had available this season compared to last.

It's not as good a story as "we've spent £200m why are we miles better?!" though.

I don't understand why you are using these details as a positive in your direction? These were the decisions of the manager, apparently. Every single one of them would have contributed something to us this season, apart from Sanchez who I still think is dogshit nowadays. I don't understand why you think this strengthens your angle?

I suppose it's a good story that 'the manager has been hard done by, that's why we're not better off' isn't it, though?
 

mu4c_20le

Full Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
17,394
That just sad.
To be fair, a trophy is a trophy, especailly a european one. You think Klopp didn't try his best to win it too? As much as I gave stick to Mourinho, I am grateful for the trophies he won for us in his first season, because its what sets us apart from the Spurs' and the Arsenals.
 

gerdm07

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
1,517
He's started six games including Rochdale (which we drew) and we had a grand total of 6 points out of 15 in them.

I've seen people use Pogba and Martial as an excuse on multiple occasions, hell when Martial was injured there were people on him proclaiming him to be the missing link and the player Ole needed to turn results around, but ultimately we've been really, consistently shit no matter who's fit or injured.

Maybe we will be better with a fit Pogba and McT alongside Bruno but I find it difficult to see it, because the real problem is that our manager hasn't a clue how to beat teams who sit back against us.
You beat teams who sit back with quality players, especially quality midfielders who can find that key pass. With Pogba out we have not had any creative midfielders for months, so yes unlocking teams is going to be tough no matter the managers tactics. Let's see what happens when we have Bruno linking up with our forwards. With Pogba coming back soon we should be even more creative. If we look just as anemic the rest of the season I will join the Ole out crowd.

Every manager needs some quality players to look good.
 

SAFMUTD

Full Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
3,443
To be fair, a trophy is a trophy, especailly a european one. You think Klopp didn't try his best to win it too? As much as I gave stick to Mourinho, I am grateful for the trophies he won for us in his first season, because its what sets us apart from the Spurs' and the Arsenals.
I agree we should aim to win every single competition we’re in, even the summer preseason tournaments. But theres a long long way between that and stating LVG and Mourinho were successful here just because of those small time trophies.
 

Leftback99

Full Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
5,752
I don't understand why you are using these details as a positive in your direction? These were the decisions of the manager, apparently. Every single one of them would have contributed something to us this season, apart from Sanchez who I still think is dogshit nowadays. I don't understand why you think this strengthens your angle?

I suppose it's a good story that 'the manager has been hard done by, that's why we're not better off' isn't it, though?
Like you say, they would have been useful so why are you expecting us to be much better without them just because we've spent £150m?
 

Shamana

Not Shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
2,824
To be fair, a trophy is a trophy, especailly a european one. You think Klopp didn't try his best to win it too? As much as I gave stick to Mourinho, I am grateful for the trophies he won for us in his first season, because its what sets us apart from the Spurs' and the Arsenals.
Arsenal won loads of FA cups under Wenger.
 

fergieisold

Full Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
4,711
Location
Saddleworth (home) Manchester (work)
This.

Proper manager would assess, coy, fool lukaku thinking he has a future, only sell him when he's ready.

Same with smailing. Proper manager would identify that smailing would do the job and that 80m would benefit the whole sum more if invested on a midfielder and a winger. Instead of stupidly blaming the board for not giving him 500m for a new xi.

Proper manager would hire a better coach, who he not only trusted but worthy of the job instead of some feel good appointment that offers no fresh idea.

Proper manager should know exactly his own weakness and strengt. Saf knew exactly what his swot are. He hires the right man, not the yes man.

Proper manager would correctly assess the team isnt fit enough to sustain a high intensity football for 50 games. He should then instill a different approach tactically to cover for his team. Mourinho plays defensive football with less runs, less injury. Pep utilizes a collective approach to make his players run less. I dont watch too many liverpool but you bet klopp have a few secret in his sleeves.

Proper manager would ask how much they can spend, and optimized it to the best result.

Proper manager can afford a rebuild without having to tear up the whole place, court relegation and naively thinks it's gonna be alright year 3.

Proper manager stands on the technical area. Barking orders, cheering his players at the very least, esprit d''corp management 101, ole and his 2 stooges just sit slumped on the duggout. It shows that he has no new instructions even when chasing a goal, it means that he fixes nothing. Its ok if you're winning but for the love of god even if it's only for show get up there and crack some whip.
Proper manager would speaks the English!
 

mu4c_20le

Full Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
17,394
Arsenal won loads of FA cups under Wenger.
Oh yeah, I was thinking more about their current state. I'm a big Wenger fan, and actually wanted him to step in when we sacked Jose. I thought Ole was a big risk even as caretaker and didn't really believe the rumours.
 

DFreshKing

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
3,255
Location
Greater Manchester
I would agree in terms of length of service, but 'time' isn't dished out without any kind of sign that the person deserves to be given it. Everything Ole is doing is below-par, and nothing suggests it's going to get any better either. What we're seeing right now, and have been since August, is exactly what we saw for a few months after Ole was made permanent last season.

That is with £200m worth of new players.

What evidence is there to suggest things will improve? If anything, the evidence all points towards this being The Norm now under this manager.
Do you get paid to put £200 Million on players in every post? Do you know how insanely stupid it is when £60 Million of that has played one fecking game? Add the context of English tax and utd tax and then realise he has bought 3 players to change a horror squad that had 8 leave and one shiny new boy. it's pathetic and boring, we can all read transfer news and reported prices.