So what the hell we waiting for with Ole? To keeps us a top four level team?
The “Ole In” Brigade
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I think most of us expects him to make the team challenging for the league in a year or two and hopefully keep it up after that, not equalling the greatest manager to ever grace the game.
So you are excepting Ole to take us to a tile or very close to one in the next two years?
If so you expect this because we gave Fergie time so we should give him time? Or we are moving in the right direction and you can see this plan getting us a title?
If you think that passion, mentality and counter-attacking football is enough to win the league or compete long term at the highest level, then you should be "OGS in".
If you think that "knowing the club" or "he can make us like the United of old" is what will make him successful... Sorry, football is not that simple.
What OGS has improved, while difficult to quantify and compare, is the players or the squads' mentality and moral. Hopefully, this will continue to improve until we get a new manager since it can be an important building block for the next man in.
Regarding the composition of the squad (type of players suited to play a certain type of football), transfers in, current and assumed future prefered playing style, I do not see any signs that we will be able to compete tactically or technically. We can compete with teams in regards to passion and physicality, but this is not enough anymore to compete at the highest level. Top football has evolved technically and tactically to the level that effort and physicality are not enough to win a majority of the games over time.
The main question should be: Is the improvement in the squads' mentality enough to offset the increasingly technical and tactical gap between us and the top teams in the EPL and Europe? I think not.
If you think that "knowing the club" or "he can make us like the United of old" is what will make him successful... Sorry, football is not that simple.
What OGS has improved, while difficult to quantify and compare, is the players or the squads' mentality and moral. Hopefully, this will continue to improve until we get a new manager since it can be an important building block for the next man in.
Regarding the composition of the squad (type of players suited to play a certain type of football), transfers in, current and assumed future prefered playing style, I do not see any signs that we will be able to compete tactically or technically. We can compete with teams in regards to passion and physicality, but this is not enough anymore to compete at the highest level. Top football has evolved technically and tactically to the level that effort and physicality are not enough to win a majority of the games over time.
The main question should be: Is the improvement in the squads' mentality enough to offset the increasingly technical and tactical gap between us and the top teams in the EPL and Europe? I think not.
I expect him to challenge for the title because he will, if the team continues to improve the way it has since a bad start to the season. But it won't happen over night.
Would you say that LvG inherited a title-winning squad because he took over from Moyes just a season after we won the title? I wouldn't. The squad needed huge upgrades - just like ours even after finishing second. Hark back to that summer and everyone was talking about Liverpool being challengers to City...not us. This was because you could see where each team was headed. We do have hindsight now, so let's see:
1. Matic was already done by the second half of the season - it was showing, but he was one of Jose's favourites and "undroppable"
2. Valencia was done too - but somehow Jose continued playing him game in, game out
3. Young was ageing, Mata was done too, of course. Zlatan was gone. Lukaku, we know by now, wanted to be out at the earliest too (his words, from all his recent interviews)
Effectively, DdG was all that stood between us and repeated rammings from the opposition. We lacked creativity from wide areas and Jose had stunted the development of Martial as well as Rashford with his bizarre preference for Lukaku and Alexis...with even Fellaini preferred as an option in attack over these.
So no, that "squad" was not the second best. We desperately needed midfielders, full-backs, a RW / RF, a 10 and a CB. We now have FBs covered and the CB too - but clearly still need the 10, RW/RF (James should be backup and Ole mentions this even in his recent podcast) and another midfielder.
In addition, we needed to clear the immense quantity of overpaid underperformers - some of who still remain with us. To me, this situation qualifies for "train wreck" as a descriptor.
These are questions that are constantly being evaded. All you’ll hear is we’re on the right track and he’s rebuilding. Will it end in us challenging for major titles? Who the feck knows but sure let’s give Ole a crack at the whip because there’s nobody else that could do any better. What better place than Manchester United to learn on the job such as how to beat the mighty Watford, Villa and West Ham consistently. If Ole fails sure why not give another rookie a shot?
1. I don't need the bet. Did you say so when Porto won Champions League? When Leicester won Premier League? If or when he wins, there is no 100% answer. I can say that I think that he will not leave club without trophy. What trophy remains to be seen. What he is doing now is creating something good for the sake of squad and mostly club.1. Ole Gunnar Solskjaer will never win a premier league title. I’ll make a bet with you right now if you think differently and we can both wait this out in real life not FM like that means anything to me. Haven’t played that game since 08
2. Worst start ever in the premier league what exactly should I be over the moon about
3. Have a breather compose yourself and explain to me why you have just provided me with Pep’s transfer catalogue over 4 seasons. If Ole was to last that like, we can all pray he’s doesn’t he would too have a similar catalogue. Shock horror clubs with money spend money
4. I didn’t want him anyway as we need midfielders and was baffled why we keep getting linked with strikers to add to the limited service they are given. All Solskjaer has some is knock down a wall he ain’t building sh*t.
2. Well, if you asked youself last december if you would like being in position where club is not toxic anymore we all know what the answer would be. We are better of in every aspect since last year. Time is required for medals and trophies and nothing is done in a year.
3. I just proved to you that even Guardiola, with inherited stars, needed almost 1billion to already team full of stars. And they are struggling right now. So if you get rid of Ole, don't you think that a new manager would buy lot of players? Or do you think they would be happy with what they got and suddenly start winning titles? Even Klopp who is on everyones lips needed time and money to get it right. Thing take time.
4. The answer was not for you but for the other guy making it like it was Solskjaer fault. I agree with you that first and most we should be looking at midfielders. But a striker wouldn't hurt.
This 100 percent. You're spot on matey. I thunk even pep would struggle with the squad we have amassed over the years. Lots of deadwood, lot here for a paycheck and not to graft.
Ole has identified the promising youth, ditched the deadwood and bought fairly well. I genuinely think his plan was to improve defense year 1, improve midfield year 2 and add finishing touches (attackers if necessary) year 3.
The players clearly like him and as someone else said, it's about managing egos at this level. The egos he couldn't manage have been shipped.
I think the future looks bright(ish). That said I wouldn't be surprised if itn goes wrong. Just more confident than I was a year or two ago. In fact, more confident since at any time since fergie left.
Nobody is evading any questions mate.
I believe that if Ole keeps improving the squad as he is then yeah we can challenge for major honours.
If he fails to do that, then he’ll be rightfully sacked, is that unfair?
Nobody knows if Ole will work out, just as nobody knows if any manager will work out at any job, it’s not an exact science as we’ve seen with our previous managers.
Teams always needs uppgrades. It was the same with Chelsea before Conte took over from Mourinho when they had been as bad as us. He did bring in Kante to improve the midfield and they won the league. Alonso and Luiz in too
and if we had bought those two this place would go crazy. A good manager can improve a team which Conte did. He made Moses perform great which would be similar to a manager getting Lingard to perform here.
I personally considered them a bigger mess than us since Ivanovic got old, Terry retired and they had midfielders not performing and a Diego Costa fighting with everyone. Although they sorted the defense out with Luiz and the midfield with kante and for one season at least he made Costa perform for them before he wanted to sell him.
People said Real was a wreck last season, but Zidane has got them back on track. That is what top managers do.
He did buy a lot though.
If Woodward didn't want to give Ole more money I guess fair enough it was hard for him to get the players needed.
Although wasting the money on Maguire was not the right call if that was the case when we needed improvements up front and in midfield.
After you have sacked him today who do you want in that is such a sure thing to win us titles?
I’m not saying winning titles is ever a sure thing, but that we have put our chances at an all time low yet again as we did with David Moyes. Just because two experienced managers that have won it all failed doesn’t mean we give up hiring them. Mourinho isn’t the manager he was and he took us to 2nd. LVG was also nowhere close to his peak. We’ve yet to actually sign, although they don’t grow on trees, a Klopp/Pep/Simeone level manager that’s on top of their trade. Who that manager is, I don’t know yet but I hope the club is making the preparations for yet another experiment going a South. I want Ole to succeed more than anything, but I have to be realistic also.
The club and squad are improving. It would be complete and utter madness to get rid of the manager while that’s the case.
Maybe he will prove himself the one to win us the league and maybe he won’t, time will tell soon enough. You don’t just unfairly sack a manager because another one will probably do better.
I don't understand the negativity. We're doing OK in the league and there are still lots of games left. We're in the cups and in Europe. Our team is improving, which it will do as it's a very young team and Ole is improving too, because he is also young and learning. We have one game plan that works excellently against top 6 sides and I believe that after the January window, whether we keep Pogba or not, we will have the creativity in midfield to play through the lines against the low block.
People are focusing on what they think Ole may or may not do in the future and aren't looking at what he's doing right now.
People are focusing on what they think Ole may or may not do in the future and aren't looking at what he's doing right now.
It's because until recently we were breaking all kinds of negative records. As the results improve so does all the negative talk.
I’m on the fence with this one - positives for me is the squad is improving, and the older/lesser quality players are being sold or used less than youth. Greenwood is going to be some player and the majority of the first 11 are not yet in their prime. We are very inconsistent this season in the main - for instance, i watched the palace game, we battered them but didnt score, and they got two shit goals. But then we have done over bigger teams.
i think also on the other hand, Ole has at time showed some tactical naivety - like when all the attackers were out for the Newcastle game at the start of the season and he tried to persist with the same tactics.
the big problem is midfield, when we face entrenched teams, we dont have that player that unlocks the opposition. thats just a personnel issue.
i also think people are quick to point to cvs and proven players over youth but - we just had two managers with huge CV’s signing ‘big’ players for huge fees from abroad - did either get us anywhere near it?
i think also on the other hand, Ole has at time showed some tactical naivety - like when all the attackers were out for the Newcastle game at the start of the season and he tried to persist with the same tactics.
the big problem is midfield, when we face entrenched teams, we dont have that player that unlocks the opposition. thats just a personnel issue.
i also think people are quick to point to cvs and proven players over youth but - we just had two managers with huge CV’s signing ‘big’ players for huge fees from abroad - did either get us anywhere near it?
1) So what you are telling me is you hope we can fluke a league title win? Great stuff. On Porto though.. who was there manager again and what did he do the year before? Add some context please.
2) The club was toxic for like 5 minutes. This is so overrated. It was toxic because of 1 guy. That same guy in point one who also left Real Madrid and Chelsea in the same state and they didn’t hire Ole to fix there mess. The actually hired managers who within 12-18 months won them titles.. so toxicity clearly doesn’t need a 3 year rebuild.
3) What inherited stars? He had two star players Aguero and Yaya Toure.. he didn’t even play the latter. Don’t bring up David Silva or KDB either as they wasn’t the players he turned them into. Plus what is your point? Is Solskjaer not getting money to improve things is that what your are implying? At least they brought players with a plan we brought a ball playing CB and we don’t play out from the back, and defensive RB and we want to attack from the flanks and a LW who we play on the right.
4) We do need an attacker I agree, just not the type most believe we need.
Well said.
The team finished second place the season before because ....
it had Zlatan not only top scorer but also a beast on the field and a natural leader for the squad whose influence that season cannot be over stated.
It also had a fully motivated and fully functioning Pogba along with a Matic that was a year away from going over the hill rather than a year after going over the hill .
Ole has had none of these luxuries.
No, I didn't say that. I said that you didn't thought that Porto and Leicester would win either. But they did. So don't be suprised if Solskjaer starts winning titles that will show that you are wrong again. And he will win titles. That is what I think.
5 minutes? Comon. From the beggining of the pre season it was bad. Really bad. Toxic as people say. Everyone saw that we would struggle and everyone saw that Mourinho were at war every press conference.
Wrong. Real Madrid one just one LaLiga title after Mourinho and it took some time. So in 7 years they have won 1 title. Sure, they won Champions League titles and credit goes to them. But wait a minute. Who was there manager those years? Nobody with any great CV. They took one old player in Zidane. So you can hire a manager with no CV or very little and still manage to do some good things.
You really must be kidding? No stars? It is like people saying that Pochettino came to Tottenham having championship players. Look at the squad he inherited from Pellegrini. Just look. Point is that Solskjaer needs time. Times to do something about our team. And to buy player we need. We can't buy 10 players in one window.
Wrong. Maybe you cannot look behind the names of the winners of trophies. But paying close attention to the key metrics and quality of football, the progress Klopp had made was clear at the end of 17/18 (where some here were hailing Mourinho and criticising Klopp as a fraud) let alone 18/19.
Nope. People are looking at what he's doing right now which definitely isn't enough. Then they're forming their views on what he's likely to do in the future based on a mediocre present - because that's the only logical basis for the same.
As for negativity, it's pretty obvious as well. Youth, pace and energy is all well and good. But there has been little to suggest that Ole is a top manager or one in the making. And it must be made absolutely clear - we need a top managerial talent if not someone who is already there. Based on what I've seen Ole may sneak one top 4 finish and possibly a cup, much like LVG managed, but as with him, I see him proving to not be good enough and eventually leaving without genuinely making the strides we need to.
Any manager would have struggled this season. I’m Ole in but Pep is one of a kind so it’s almost disrespectful to compare.
Is Pep underrated on here because he’s City’s manager or something? I remember he absolutely wiped our best side ever off the field in Rome 10 years ago. No excuses for players. Barcelona’s tactics did it not just the quality.
His understanding of the game is a level above any manager I've ever seen, chequebook or not. The man is probably the genius of world football behind Messi at this point.
Spot on, like the players managers have potential too.
But sadly that is not accepted here in Caf. Weird, and stupid.
you don’t remember the moaning about how fletcher was missing for the game because of the card in semis? That Carrick thread went on for years saying how shocking he was for the final and let Barcelona walk all over our midfield - with some comparing him to the previous player who wore his number unfavorably - fair and harsh at the same time.
we played our football and we weren’t good enough in 2009 - we were in 2008 semis. It was absolutely not about the system. It was about the quality. It is a match that I remember vividly. We were all over them in the beginning but the goal from Eto deflated us for a long while. And it seemed like we couldn’t do anything after.
You are deluded if you can’t see what Ole is doing. Too many doom mongers and would be managers talking nonsense
I agree with Matt10000 - improved players this years - McTominay, Fred, Rashford - possibly Martial (need to see a longer run). Youngsters being introduced, with a view to the future - Greenwood, Williams.
Three decent signings last window, Maguire, AWB, James, who have been integrated into the team.
The current situation is way more positive than for several seasons, even if some of the games are awful. Add in a decent midfielder or two in this window and that will be the start of a competitive team.
Hahahaha you can’t fluke a league title.
1. Jose had won the league - and didn't leave the decrepit mess behind at Chelsea that he did with us; Conte also bought more. The biggest issue at Chelsea then was the dressing room toxicity - not the squad.
2. We didn't buy anywhere close to the level we needed to - and sold a bunch. Unlike Conte's imperatives in his first season (look where it went after that though, for evidence of what Jose leaves behind)
3. Zidane spent - but more importantly, what Real underwent was a dip that could have been predicted by most. Ageing squad, not added to, lost it's top-scorer and coming immediately after its seniors went deep into a WC. Couple that with a new manager who was horrible at club level. Zidane came back and literally is playing the same team (most of the time) that has won 3 of the last 4 CLs. 4 of the last 6 too. He's a good manager (with a nothing CV pre-Real by the bye) of course, but again, incomparable to our mess. He'd literally been gone just 6 months before he was back!
4. Think it was obvious we needed a CB - and that Ole wanted 3-4 more players but we didn't buy them. Ole started off in March/April talking about replacing outgoings (Fellaini and Herrera then) and buying 3-4 players to bolster the squad. He said openly we'd replace Lukaku if he left (this was early in the summer). His tune started to change later (AP and Lingard can fill in for midfielder; happy with attackers etc.) since he isn't a Jose and therefore doesn't kick the club in public.
If you really think we didn't need a CB, that's your call (I think we did) but let's not make believe that:
a. Our squad was not a decrepit wreck post-Jose
b. Real or Chelsea had anywhere close to the level of issues we did
We've been in the wilderness for years! Chelsea have won 2 league titles in that time. Real have won 4 Champions League titles. I really don't see how we can say that the situations were similar / worse for them than us!
If you cant see he is trying to galvanize a young team to have some sort of consistency after the mess we’ve been in, your missing the big picture.
Almost every title-winning team is made up of a bunch of players that has played together, for at least a full season, while having the right attitude. That is what he is trying to do.
And to everyone saying he is a bad coach, just look at how he has improved players while beating the best teams.
Yes, ofcourse - he is struggling against lower sides. But no manager is perfect - just look at Pep’s struggles in CL or Klopp’s inability to defend a lead the first years.
And with the squad and injuries he has gotten, you cant blaim it 100% of it on him, many of the teams we’ve lost against is well-drilled and almost exclusivly train on lying back and wrangling out a win.
Another thing that is common amongst winning managers is that they have gotten time enough to get results. It is too early to say anything about Ole yet. He has deserved time until the end of the season in my eyes. No manager in the world will get us any more than he can this season anyway.
Almost every title-winning team is made up of a bunch of players that has played together, for at least a full season, while having the right attitude. That is what he is trying to do.
And to everyone saying he is a bad coach, just look at how he has improved players while beating the best teams.
Yes, ofcourse - he is struggling against lower sides. But no manager is perfect - just look at Pep’s struggles in CL or Klopp’s inability to defend a lead the first years.
And with the squad and injuries he has gotten, you cant blaim it 100% of it on him, many of the teams we’ve lost against is well-drilled and almost exclusivly train on lying back and wrangling out a win.
Another thing that is common amongst winning managers is that they have gotten time enough to get results. It is too early to say anything about Ole yet. He has deserved time until the end of the season in my eyes. No manager in the world will get us any more than he can this season anyway.
What gap is that then? Can you explain what you mean?
United aren't as good technically? If this is the case it's a recruitment issue or development in the academy and nothing to do with the coach, unless you expect a players' technique to improve significantly that late in his development?
As for tactically vs these big teams, United are the only team to take league points off Liverpool, they beat Chelsea twice, beat City away and beat Spurs and Leicester at home. With a squad so technically deficient, that must be an amazing tactical masterclass to consistently obtain positive results against the other top teams?
Or is "technically and tactically" just what people say when they want to criticise a coach and haven't a clue what they're talking about?
He got Cardiff relegated and came from the Norwegian league you know. Clearly technically and tactically deficient.
1 Mourinho left a massive mess at Chelsea close to the relegation zone in a weak league that Leicester won. It was worse than for us. They had as many problems with the squad as we had seriously. Although they had Hazard with extreme qualities, but we have Pogba.
2 We spent similar money to Conte. Although sold Lukaku so had much lower net spend. Glaziers/Woodward can probably be blamed for that.
3 Less squad mess for Real no doubt, but it just shows what a good manager can do.
4 Need is relative. CB was the last position I wanted to waste money in. Striker/winger/midfield/Fb was more urgent and I would rather have replaced De gea then giving him that new deal.
Our squad had talent like we see this season, but lacked in some areas that we have not addressed well.
That's only if you judge the squad solely by the position they were in. They were reigning champions who hadn't lost players - just lost faith in the manager. It's absolutely not the case like with us where he left a squad that was absolutely gutted and nowhere close to competitive. Chelsea didn't start that final Jose season wondering "Wonder if this team can mount a top 4 challenge" - they were one of the favourites for the title! It's disingenuous to just cite the league position he left them in.
Yes, Conte inherited a weak-ish defence - but he also inherited a strong midfield and added Kante to it. He bought 2 defenders as well, and then had a squad that included all of: Alonso, Cahill, Terry, Azpi, Luiz, Zouma, Fabregas, Kante, Oscar (sold in Jan), Hazard, Willian, Matic (young, effective Matic) and Costa - this without counting Pedro, Moses and co. That's a good sight better than we started this season with!
You mention Pogba - but good as he is, Pogba has never been for us what Hazard was for Chelsea. A consistent match-winner who could literally win the game by his own performance. Blame Pogba's supporting cast all you like (though that would only bolster the argument that it was a better squad), but Hazard single-handedly carried Chelsea often, while Pogba has all too few such displays.
We had lost noone and ended in second too the season before. Fabregas was clearly not good enough as a starter defensively for most games. The midfield they had was a mess too like ours. Matic was younger than he is for us, but with still limited mobility.
We could have been third favorites with a good manager and top players too.
Had they gone for Ole and ended in 6th people would have called that squad a mess needing years to rebuild too.
Thank you for posting this. I now know that you are an oracle of football and clearly can see how the future will play out. It is obvious that you understand the intricacies and nuances of predictions poster named after Fosu-Mensah.
I can look at that. At his progress. I was telling that the member here would look that way if Klopp didn’t won last year.
I have always said that teams and managers need time to do something. Do develop something. To build something. Clearly there is one standard for Ole and one for others only because Ole isn’t a cool ”name”.
So true.. but always the case. There
Never as good as they say you are and it’s never as bad as people make it seem.
If we was currently 3rd under another manager we’d all be talking about this same team as future premier league champions.
Zlatan was not our top scorer that year. In fact, he barely kicked a ball and was released in Jan.
As for Pogba, he was great first half of the season but faded away in the second half and his problems with Mourinho/general motivation were already evident as far back as January 2018 when he was subbed off early against Spurs.
We finished second because Jose utilized an effective but pragmatic style and managed to get results consistently, without really entertaining the fans.
With Ole this season it's been much more of a roller coaster. Either great attacking performances or shockingly poor. Burnley was the first time this season I felt we ground out a good win.
One final stab after which I will just leave well be.
1. Matic then was one of the best DMs in the league. Which is also why his first half-season with us saw our upturn as he put in some great performances.
2. That said, they still got in Kante - who proceeded to show just how much of a beast he is when on top of his game
3. This gave them a solid center - to which they added the gloss with the likes of Hazard, Moses and Willian with Pedro, Fabregas etc. to add depth
By contrast, our MF consisted of McTominay, Fred, Matic and Pogba with Andreas, Mata and Lingard to add "depth". I genuinely can't see how you can even argue that their midfield was anywhere close to ours in being "a mess". Seriously. It's one thing to say Ole isn't good enough, but can't we make that point without such ludicrous misdirection?