The 4-4-2 Draft - Final - Edgar vs Pat Mustard

[Pat_Mustard]

EDGAR -------------------------------------------------------PAT MUSTARD​

EDGAR:

Tactics: Classic 4-4-2 with expansive wing play.

Dino Zoff - GOAT GK

Alan Hansen / Jaap Stam - Top notch ball player/stopper combo. pace, strength, arial ability, reading of the game, they have it all.
Bixente Lizarazu / Manuel Amoros - Solid two way players. defensively stout and will provide overlapping width all game.

Roy Keane / Luisito Suarez - Blend of defensive ability and ability to contribute to attack. High workrate, good vision, passing and ability to contribute creatively. Similar to the Keane/Scholes combo.
Ryan Giggs / David Beckham - Proven partnership providing pace on ground, ability to beat defenders + accurate passing and crossing and ability. High workrate both ways.

Raul/Sandor Kocsis - Left foot / Right Foot combo. Raul's silky movement on ground with Kocsis brilliant headers make for a lethal attack. Both well rounded forwards who can score and create for other.

PAT MUSTARD:

• John Barnes, along with Edgar's Ryan Giggs in fairness, was simply first and foremost in my thoughts when I considered the left winger pool for this draft. When it comes to marrying familiarity with the demands of the formation and game-breaking individual ability, he has few peers in the pool.
• On the right wing, the left-footed Bruno Conti should dovetail nicely with Dani Alves. Comfortable cutting inside or attacking down the line, he also has the pace, workrate and experience defending the whole flank to cover effectively during defensive transitions.
• In the direct and frenetic environment of competing 4-4-2s, Dalglish's vision and composure is a priceless asset in bringing his teammates into play and carving open the opposition defence. I can't remember him having much of an impact in drafts previously, but with this theme and the substantial block list he's near the top of the heap in his role.
• Clearly no team is going to be exercising a tiki-taki style stranglehold on possession here, but we aim to play on the front foot and to that end we've drafted a defence that is comfortable pushing up into a high line. GOAT-level keeper in Schmeichel who was comfortable surging off his line, and a pacey CB pairing who are both comfortable on the ball and in McGrath's case especially, confident 1v1 defenders. Both FBs excelled in high line systems and will ratchet up our attacking threat immensely.
• We have a particularly strong CM duo and in my view a highly complementary one: Bastian as the more positionally-reserved of the pairing; Breitner as the goalscoring B2B with the sumptuous range of passing.
• The partnership up front is basically a pairing of all-time Scotland XI shoo-ins, who only got to play together fleetingly at the very end of Law's career. Dalglish will knit together our attack as he did for Celtic and Liverpool with such distinction, with Law providing the lethal cutting edge and a workrate both in possession and against the ball to rival Dalglish's most celebrated partner Ian Rush.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Edgar Allan Pillow game on!

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Dead even teams, but my players are obviously way better!

Good luck @Pat_Mustard

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Well, 8+ minutes of glorious crossing by Beckham to Giggs that's always fun watching and shows the proven dynamics which will be an added advantage!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Surprised to see Suarez in the final considering he played his best football in a midfield three of a very defensive system.
Also surprised to see Breitner starting over Robbo considering the theme and fit for the team.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Dead even teams, but my players are obviously way better!

Good luck @Pat_Mustard

Good luck mate!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Surprised to see Suarez in the final considering he played his best football in a midfield three of a very defensive system.
Also surprised to see Breitner starting over Robbo considering the theme and fit for the team.

I agonised over Breitner vs Robbo and it was a toss up really. In the end opted for Breitner's smoother and more creative passing.

 

[harms]

I also had a thought about Robbo vs Breitner when I saw Pat's reinforcement peak. Robson kinda feels more natural — he'd give you more energy & better defensive presence but Breitner does give you an edge in terms of playmaking & chance creation. Picking Conti instead of Figo makes sense if you want to use Breitner though.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thanks for setting it up @Pat_Mustard , probably the easiest draft I have run so far

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Surprised to see Suarez in the final considering he played his best football in a midfield three of a very defensive system.

Huh?

Grande Inter played counter attacking football, but they were never a defensive team in traditional sense.

In attack, all the players know what I wanted: vertical football at great speed, with no more than three passes to get to the opponent's box. If you lose the ball playing vertically, it's not a problem—but lose it laterally and you pay with a goal.

“I invented Catennacio. The problem is that most of the ones who copied me, copied me wrongly. They forgot to include the attacking principles that my Catennacio included.”

• In 1964 Inter scored 68 goals, the most in Serie A and repeated that feat next season with 70 goals.
• Facchetti was the first Serie A defender to score in double digits (12 goals) in 1965.
• Mazzola was the top scorer in 1964 and third top in 1965.

And Suarez was the mastermind in midfield supported by Bedin. Mazzola was all action and dropped back regularly but the same will be done by Becks, Giggs and Raul who were industrious in all facets of the game.

Suarez is perfect for the lighting counter blueprint that Giggs, Keane and Becks thrived in.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Thanks for setting it up @Pat_Mustard , probably the easiest draft I have run so far

No problem mate. It's a good idea to share the burden going forward.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Grande Inter played counter attacking football, but they were never a defensive team in traditional sense

I don't agree with Sjor that Suarez played in a midfield 3, he played in as much a midfield 2 when Mazzola was younger, as Scholes did in the 99 team alongside Beckham and Giggs. Corso and Jair is essentially the same structure with a different tactic, so Suarez is close to perfect.

But if Grande Inter was not a traditionally defensive team, I don't know what was.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

But if Grande Inter was not a traditionally defensive team, I don't know what was.

1963-64 - Joint second top scoring team
1964-65 - Top scoring team
1965-66 - Top scoring team
1966-67 Top scoring team

They were scoring twice more when compared to peak Capello's AC Milan with that legendary Baresi defence.

Edit: They also were scoring 50% more than Platini's Juventus with Scirea led defence too.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

1963-64 - Joint second top scoring team
1964-65 - Top scoring team
1965-66 - Top scoring team
1966-67 Top scoring team

They were scoring twice more when compared to peak Capello's AC Milan with that legendary Baresi defence.

Edit: They also were scoring 50% more than Platini's Juventus with Scirea led defence too.

That bit of trivia means nothing. Jose's first Chelsea scored more than the other teams too (except Arsenal I think). Defensive teams need to score too to win.

 

[Gio]

Good teams, but it feels like Pat has been getting slightly weaker instead of reinforcing over the semi and now the final. But still a great team on its own merits. I thought the next move might be a midfield of Breitner - Schweiny - Robbo - Figo.

Edgar's made marginal improvements without making a real step change. Tactically very tidy.

 

[General_Elegancia]

For me, Grande’s Inter was a very organized team, played fast and counter-attacking football and it was effective because of players like Fachetti, Mazzola, Corso and Jair. Suarez was a creator of this team, he would spray a long of long passes to Jair in the right side, Mazzola,Corso or even Fachetti in the left side.

Not a similar comparison, I think it’s a bit similar to Mourinho’s Madrid, despite a lot of differences in details. Mourinho’s always prefers Zonal man orientations, Herrera’s tactics prefered man-marking with sweeper.

Oh and Grande’s Inter was a very clinical team too, a lot of players in Herrera’s squad had great finishing skills. Ex. Fachetti

 

[Isotope]

Breitner as LB, with Krol moves to CB. So no need to sacrifice Robbo, and defence is better, imho.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

1963-64 - Joint second top scoring team
1964-65 - Top scoring team
1965-66 - Top scoring team
1966-67 Top scoring team

They were scoring twice more when compared to peak Capello's AC Milan with that legendary Baresi defence.

Edit: They also were scoring 50% more than Platini's Juventus with Scirea led defence too.

They scored 54, 68, 70 and 59 in those seasons. A few years before Milan under the famously defensively-minded Rocco had scored 83 goals, and in turn a couple of seasons before that Juve hit 92 goals. There's really very little doubt that Herrera's Inter were at the vanguard of ushering in a much more defensive style of football in Italy. More instructive is simply to look at their style of play in the available big European matches - if that's not defensive football I don't know what is.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think we're getting sidetracked with Inter rather than Suarez, which is my fault. I'll take this over the general discussions thread and continue it there.

For the purposes of this match, I don't think Suzrez's ability or tactical use can be found fault with.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good teams, but it feels like Pat has been getting slightly weaker instead of reinforcing over the semi and now the final. But still a great team on its own merits. I thought the next move might be a midfield of Breitner - Schweiny - Robbo - Figo.

Edgar's made marginal improvements without making a real step change. Tactically very tidy.

Passing on Figo was brutally tough but I felt that Conti was the better choice to balance that flank. Figo's workrate was good but not truly exceptional imo, whereas Conti was a beast in that regard, with the pace to really make a difference in defending the counter too. Both Figo and Conti were highly comfortable going inside or out, but the natural left-footer Conti just seemed like the cleaner choice with the rampaging Alves steaming up in support. Lastly, and not to say he's remotely a misfit in a 4-4-2, I just think of Figo more as a 4-3-3 man. Nedved was the other one I mulled over for ages, but I don't recall him playing much on the right wing at all, and din't unearth much in the way of footage either.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Conti’s was an excellent choice for me. If you play Alves as right-back, you really need a winger that can support your defensive phase when Alves goes to forward and Conti is the right choice for me. When Conti contributed in defensive phase, I have though a lot of times that”is this guy a right back, he tracks too much”. Alves went to track down too late is one of the reason why Pep’s Barcelona lost to Mourinho’s Inter in UCL 2010, Mourinho knew this strategies well, so he really used Pandev and Zanetti could overlapping due to Pedro didn’t track back.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Breitner as LB, with Krol moves to CB. So no need to sacrifice Robbo, and defence is better, imho.

Again, mulled it over heavily, but decided against it. Defence would be a better selection of names, but not a better unit. The young LB version of Breitner was just a bit too wild with his attacking forays around the pitch in a match like this with the uber-attacking Alves on the other flank, and Krol was the better defender at LB too from what I've seen. I didn't really want to drop Thiago Silva either. Fabulous player whose stock should be high at the minute after coming to the PL at pensionable age and bossing it.

We watched him [Thiago Silva] live against Leicester and he was wearing velvet slippers and he had a cigar in the 90 minutes, he was fabulous. He’s not just a defender, he can do a lot. He can play, I played against him when he was at AC Milan and I thought ‘Wow, this guy is gonna be absolutely special’ and here, normally you’d see a centre-half just play the ball out here, safe, maybe play it into the midfield there and just keep the ball ticking over. Not Thiago Silva, he sees the space behind the defenders, they’re pushing up too high and he gets his team up the pitch. Not only up the pitch, he gets his team an opportunity to get a goal here. You see this ends with a shot and a great save by Kasper Schmeichel. And this is what he does consistently.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

One of the advantages of my team are proven partnership and when not, how close they were to proven partnerships.

Raul - Kocsis: Raul's left footed style is similar to what Kocsis has with Puskas. Great on the ground with the ball and ability to drag defenders with his pace and movement.
Giggs-Keane-Beckham - No comments needed!
Suarez-Bedin - was the bedrock of the Grande Inter midfield with Suarez being the mastermind. Keane is a upgrade across the board. Tactically a perfect fit to play the Scholes role.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Huh?

Grande Inter played counter attacking football, but they were never a defensive team in traditional sense.

• In 1964 Inter scored 68 goals, the most in Serie A and repeated that feat next season with 70 goals.
• Facchetti was the first Serie A defender to score in double digits (12 goals) in 1965.
• Mazzola was the top scorer in 1964 and third top in 1965.

And Suarez was the mastermind in midfield supported by Bedin. Mazzola was all action and dropped back regularly but the same will be done by Becks, Giggs and Raul who were industrious in all facets of the game.

Suarez is perfect for the lighting counter blueprint that Giggs, Keane and Becks thrived in.

As scrappy said, all of this is irrelevant.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I don't agree with Sjor that Suarez played in a midfield 3, he played in as much a midfield 2 when Mazzola was younger, as Scholes did in the 99 team alongside Beckham and Giggs. Corso and Jair is essentially the same structure with a different tactic, so Suarez is close to perfect.

But if Grande Inter was not a traditionally defensive team, I don't know what was.

Corso was a midfielder not a winger, both in terms of style of play and positioning on the pitch.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Corso was a midfielder not a winger, both in terms of style of play and positioning on the pitch.

I think we have had this debate before as well somewhere. Corso was expected to provide width and crosses from the left as well and of course add up to the numbers in misfield. Not very different to Beckham even if they were very different players best strengths wise. Jair more closer to Giggs.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I think we have had this debate before as well somewhere. Corso was expected to provide width and crosses from the left as well and of course add up to the numbers in misfield. Not very different to Beckham even if they were very different players best strengths wise. Jair more closer to Giggs.

He drifted to the wide ares like Kdb, he wasnt anything like Becks so lets just agree to disagree.

 

[General_Elegancia]

He drifted to the wide ares like Kdb, he wasnt anything like Becks so lets just agree to disagree.

Would agree with @Šjor Bepo, I think the same as you. In the left side, Grande’s Inter had Fachetti, Corso and young Mazzola also liked to drifted left too. Sometimes Grande’s Inter look like asymmetric 4-3-3 with no real winger due to Fachetti’s playing style.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Conti’s was an excellent choice for me. If you play Alves as right-back, you really need a winger that can support your defensive phase when Alves goes to forward and Conti is the right choice for me. When Conti contributed in defensive phase, I have though a lot of times that”is this guy a right back, he tracks too much”. Alves went to track down too late is one of the reason why Pep’s Barcelona lost to Mourinho’s Inter in UCL 2010, Mourinho knew this strategies well, so he really used Pandev and Zanetti could overlapping due to Pedro didn’t track back.

Cheers General! I prioritised tactical fit with that Conti pick after the mixed reception I got for sticking Breitner out there in my last match, a decision that I wasn't entirely happy with myself tbh.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Yeah Corso was more of a LCM who drifted out wide as opposed to being a left winger or a midfielder.

Nonetheless, I do not particularly have a problem with Suarez in a midfield duo, think he and Keane should make for quite a pairing, esp with Giggs and Beckham flanking them.

Tough game to separate this but went with Pat by the slightest of margins as I can see Law-Dalglish having the upper hand over the opposition's CB duo and Pat's defense relatively coping better with EAP's attack.

 

[Gio]

Again, mulled it over heavily, but decided against it. Defence would be a better selection of names, but not a better unit. The young LB version of Breitner was just a bit too wild with his attacking forays around the pitch in a match like this with the uber-attacking Alves on the other flank, and Krol was the better defender at LB too from what I've seen. I didn't really want to drop Thiago Silva either. Fabulous player whose stock should be high at the minute after coming to the PL at pensionable age and bossing it.

Yeah, I think you've played the best possible defence.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Nonetheless, I do not particularly have a problem with Suarez in a midfield duo, think he and Keane should make for quite a pairing, esp with Giggs and Beckham flanking them.

Im actually okay with it, just thought its a bit surprising considering its a final of a one formation draft so you would expect everything to be perfect tactically.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

One of the advantages of my team are proven partnership and when not, how close they were to proven partnerships.

Raul - Kocsis: Raul's left footed style is similar to what Kocsis has with Puskas. Great on the ground with the ball and ability to drag defenders with his pace and movement.
Giggs-Keane-Beckham - No comments needed!
Suarez-Bedin - was the bedrock of the Grande Inter midfield with Suarez being the mastermind. Keane is a upgrade across the board. Tactically a perfect fit to play the Scholes role.

Fine player though he was, Raul was no speed-demon. I don't know if Kocsis was particularly quick or not, but I never really heard it mentioned as a notable attribute of his. Dalglish was far from quick either, but in that regard Law's lightning-quick acceleration is a nice complement.

As a midfield duo in it's own right Keane-Suarez clearly has it's merits, but I don't think it works particularly well as a Treble-winning side CM reboot. Keane was the mastermind of that midfield, not Scholes, who was jostling with Nicky Butt to partner him. The dynamics are quite different here if Suarez is running the midfield and Keane is playing a more subdued water-carrier role. He can do it, and do it extremely well, but the Treble-winning midfield comparisons lose a bit of their veracity.

 

[Isotope]

Again, mulled it over heavily, but decided against it. Defence would be a better selection of names, but not a better unit. The young LB version of Breitner was just a bit too wild with his attacking forays around the pitch in a match like this with the uber-attacking Alves on the other flank, and Krol was the better defender at LB too from what I've seen. I didn't really want to drop Thiago Silva either. Fabulous player whose stock should be high at the minute after coming to the PL at pensionable age and bossing it.

Understood.

 

[harms]

I’d say that Inter was a defensive team with an outstanding set of attacking footballers rather than an attacking team.

Agree with the Robbo->Breitner->Krol suggestion, it would’ve made for a better and a more unique 4-4-2 due to Breitner’s unique interpretation of the role (and you could’ve added Figo to that for an additional oomph even though Conti is perfectly fine and probably a more natural fit to Alves).

 

[Theon]

I thought the next move might be a midfield of Breitner - Schweiny - Robbo - Figo.

That’s exactly what I thought it might have been too.

Agree with both you and Pat he’s playing the best defence he can here, not as keen on Breitner at left back and I don’t think Silva looks out of place here at all.

 

[Isotope]

I’d say that Inter was a defensive team with an outstanding set of attacking footballers rather than an attacking team.

Agree with the Robbo->Breitner->Krol suggestion, it would’ve made for a better and a more unique 4-4-2 due to Breitner’s unique interpretation of the role (and you could’ve added Figo to that for an additional oomph even though Conti is perfectly fine and probably a more natural fit to Alves).

Yeh, and with Robbo there, the team is better overall. Adding Nedved would add more oomph with almost equal protection provided by Conti, imho.

On EAP, replacing Hansen with Ferdinand or Passarella would be better for the overall team, imho.

Both are still great team anyway. I can see synergy from defence to attack.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Gave this to Pat, although I am not really sure we can seperate the teams by more than a slimmer.

My biggest complain with Pat's team from his QF game was the lack of a proper playmaker anywhere in the ranks.

In the semis, I didn't like Breitner at all in that wide gig.

Replacing Robson is a tough call but I think it's spot on. The team would have lacked that tad bit of creativity without Breitner since there is no uber creative second striker as well. A tad disappointed to see so many prefer Robson there.

I still don't rate Silva at this stage of the draft but that did not have much of a weight in my vote as Hansen doesn't belong in the final too IMO although I rate him higher than Silva.

For Edgar, I don't think he reinforced well. Raul should have been upgraded by this point and so should have Hansen. Lizarazu was not a top tier upgrade even in the pool for me and Edwards who was picked as a reinforcement was dropped. While the side looks spot on tactically as you would expect at this stage of the draft, the quality beyond the midfield is not final material in my eyes.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Replacing Robson is a tough call but I think it's spot on. The team would have lacked that tad bit of creativity without Breitner since there is no uber creative second striker as well. A tad disappointed to see so many prefer Robson there.

If one side doesnt need a playmaker in the middle is the one of @Pat_Mustard considering he has two second strikers that are fairly creative in addition to two proper wingers backed with no else then Dani Alves. Breitners passing adds "very little" to the side while Robbos die hard mentality, athletic capability combined with goals. Just elevates the whole side to another level.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I still don't rate Silva at this stage of the draft but that did not have much of a weight in my vote as Hansen doesn't belong in the final too IMO although I rate him higher than Silva.

For Edgar, I don't think he reinforced well. Raul should have been upgraded by this point and so should have Hansen. Lizarazu was not a top tier upgrade even in the pool for me and Edwards who was picked as a reinforcement was dropped. While the side looks spot on tactically as you would expect at this stage of the draft, the quality beyond the midfield is not final material in my eyes.

I really couldn't find a upgrade for Raul. Considered Rivaldo, Bergkamp, Henry etc but Raul-Kocsis just felt more natural than any of the bigger names.

As to finals reinforcement, it was between Rio or Keane. But the in earlier match a CB duo of Rio/Cannavaro went nowhere against Pat, so decided to skip him.

Schweini, Robson and Breitner have all been rated higher than Edwards in our B2B rankings list, so that was a concern. Bringing Keane in pretty much makes him the best CM on the pitch. Plus we also get the proven played dynamic enhanced.