The 4-4-2 Draft - QF - EAP vs Elegancia/Jim Beam

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

................................................... TEAM EAP .................................................................................................. TEAM ELEGANCIA/BEAM .........................


Team - EAP

Dino Zoff - GOAT GK

Alan Hansen / Jaap Stam - Top notch ball player/stopper combo. pace, strength, arial ability, reading of the game, they have it all.
Pat Evra / Manuel Amoros - Solid two way players. defensively stout and will provide overlapping width all game.

Duncan Edwards / Dunga - Blend of defensive ability and ability to contribute to attack. High workrate, good vision, passing and ability to contribute creatively.
Marc Overmars / David Beckham - Complimentary pair providing pace on ground, ability to beat defenders + accurate passing and crossing and ability. High workrate both ways.

Raul/Sandor Kocsis - Left foot / Right Foot combo. Raul's silky movement on ground with Kocsis brilliant headers make for a lethal attack. Both well rounded forwards who can score and create for other.

Team Elegancia/Jim Beam

Formation: The English classic, the 4-4-2

Tactics: Balanced, but with quick transition and ability to hurt the opponent in multiple ways.

Goalkeeper : Rinat Dasayev is considered to be the greatest goalkeeper of 1980s. He was known for his decisions-making, fantastic saves and commanding defense. He was named Best Soviet Goalkeeper in 1980, 1982, 1983, 1985, 1987, 1988. He will be a leader of our defensive line.

Spoiler: My favorite Dasayev quote

I realized that I can only stand if they throw a ball at me. I reach out and parry. Now I teach the kids how to do it, they go home and say that Dasaev is a good teacher. This is what I wanted from me, this is happiness.

"For me he is the finest goalkeeper of the world, he had incredible reflexes and a positional sense like no one else" (Valeriy Lobanovskyi about Rinat Dasayev)

Defending : Virgil van Dijk and Karlheinz Förster is a superb pairing of stopper and sweeper. Karl Heinz Forster is recognized as one of the best stoppers of all time. He was only 5foot10 but instead of that he had an unmatched positioning, intelligence and awareness. He was 5 times German defenders of the year and was named as German footballers of the year above his contenders like Rummenigge, Breitner and Schumacher in 1982. Kicker ranking rated him 1.5 world-class seasons and 7.5 International-class seasons.

Virgil Van Dijk is one of the best defenders in the world right now. He is almost complete defenders, has all attributes that great defenders should have. He is known for commanding defensive line, positioning, athleticism and aerial dominance. In this game his aerial ability will be tested by Kocsis who is known for one of the best headers in the game and that would be a great duel for sure. If I choose great defenders that can match Kocsis aerial ability , he will probably one of my first choices for sure.

Toni Schumacher said in his Anpiff book that K.H.Forster was the best defenders that he've ever play together.

“He is a defender who knows how to judge his timing and wait for the right moment to challenge or jockey [the attacker],” said the Argentine.

“He is very fast and big, but he has a lot of agility for his height.

“He is fast because of his great stride, and he is impressive both in defence and attack because he scores lots of goals.”

Messi on Van Dijk

Midfield: A world class partnership of Valery Voronin - Paul Breitner in the center of the pitch. In such partnership Voronin will be more reserved, sit between the defence and shield the defenders while still being capable of dictating the game alongside a creative, high energy and powerful dynamo in Paul Breitner who can either cut you open with a pass or a shot from distance at any given time.

Breitner was rated by Kicker as 2.5 world-class seasons and 3.5 international-class seasons. He was German midfielder of the year four times and was named in Bundesliga team of the season six times. He also finished in second places of Ballon d’Or in 1981.

Voronin was the best defensive midfielder in the World during the mid 60’s, he was a versatile player who had a perfectly combined between technical and physical attributes. He will protect our midfield. Breitner had experienced about playing with Dremmler , so in this game he will probably play with a better partner like Voronin.

"One of the most charismatic and eccentric footballers I've met, he was above all an incredible player, with an excellent vision of the game and a great toughness and energy." Karl-Heinz Rummenigge about Paul Breitner

- When Voronin played for the European team in London, the Queen of England presented him with a prize as the most elegant player. How has he changed since the accident?

Fullbacks: A solid combo of Cole and Mcgrain. Both of them were known for being great defensive players and tough attitude. Cole and Mcgrain will provide great defensive strategies from left and right, while in this game Cole will be more of an offensive oriented player and will be support Czibor in attacking phase, Mcgrain will stay at the back more.

Attacking: Czibor was the best left wingers in the world during 1950s and Johnstone was the best right wingers in the world during 1960s. Johnstone for me was the most important players in European Cup finals 1967, he was known for being great passers and excellent in dribbling. He will probably duel with his opponent left-back " Evra". Czibor was known for his crossing abilities(low/high), dribbling skills, athleticism and scoring records. He scored 100 goals in 175 appearances in Hungarian club football.

"One player who sticks in my mind is the little red haired wingers Jimmy Johnstone. He had such skill and was the kind of player I always enjoy watching."
Pele on Jimmy Johnstone

“Jimmy Johnstone was one of the best players you will ever see. Celtic fans will still remember the night he tormented Leeds – one of the finest club sides England has ever produced – at Hampden Park in a European Cup semi-final in 1970. He also did it against a world-class full-back in Terry Cooper, who was at the peak of his career.”
Alan Hansen

Strikers pairing: Suarez and Graves will pair together in this game. Both of them is/was known for being skillful and dynamic players for strikers. Suarez and Graves have the ability to drift wide for creating chances or dribbling. Both of them have great/excellent finishing skills especially Graves. This duo biggest strengths for me is in term of dynamic, creativity and unpredictable. Suarez is known as an underrated passer and he has 5 consecutive seasons of over 10 assists in league competitions ( La Liga and EPL). In fact, he had played with Sturridge in 4-4-2 system during 2013/2014 and formed one of the best strikers duo in EPL during that season, when he played with Sturridge, a lot of times he would drop deep and do playmaking role for Sturridge. I can see Graves and Suarez as an upgrade Sturridge and Suarez. So, this duo will cooperate perfectly, despite Graves and Sturridge have different playing styles.

Both of them scoring records are superb too. Graves scored 589goals in 841 appearances and Suarez has scored 518 goals in 849 appearances.

“He hit the post, and after the game people will say, well, he hit the post.”
-- Jimmy Greaves

"When Jimmy Greaves got into these positions, he didn't try to blast the back of the net out. He seemed to place the ball just inside the post as if he was making a pass to the stanchion in the back of the net" (Bill Nicholson about Jimmy Greaves)

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@General_Elegancia @Jim Beam All the best

 

[General_Elegancia]

Edgar, all the best to you too. @Edgar Allan Pillow
good luck, mate

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

No idea why you kicked Suarez out Edgar, was looking absolutely brilliant in your team from R1

 

[Šjor Bepo]

a bit out of the box but id actually swap Cole and McGrain
McGrain played on the left and was quite brilliant at it but the reason for it would be shutting down of Overmars with Cashley as he could be doing bits against the scot while he would do feck all against Cole who on other hand wont be that effective against Becks as he cant really be marked considering his style of play. Going forwards think Czibor would love to have a "playmaker" behind in McGrain while Jinky isnt bothered with who is behind him so Cashley can focus only on defending.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

No idea why you kicked Suarez out Edgar, was looking absolutely brilliant in your team from R1

His partnership with Dunga wasn't getting much traction. Plus with Breitner-Voronin, though I'd field a more "Manager Dunga" midfield to say Has the physical presence and flair to match opposition midfield.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

His partnership with Dunga wasn't getting much traction. Plus with Breitner-Voronin, though I'd field a more "Manager Dunga" midfield to say Has the physical presence and flair to match opposition midfield.

While I am aware of your appreciation for Dunga, I would have started Edwards and Suarez. The latter is just brilliant for your team.

Edwards-Suarez-Beckham has Keane-Scholes-Beckham written all over it.

 

[General_Elegancia]

While I am aware of your appreciation for Dunga, I would have started Edwards and Suarez. The latter is just brilliant for your team.

Edwards-Suarez-Beckham has Keane-Scholes-Beckham written all over it.

I would agree with your statement too, since I think Edwards alone could give enough defensive solidity and Suarez was not a liability at defense, he contributed a lot at df phase too and he can give some extra creativity in his team.

 

[Gio]

a bit out of the box but id actually swap Cole and McGrain
McGrain played on the left and was quite brilliant at it but the reason for it would be shutting down of Overmars with Cashley as he could be doing bits against the scot while he would do feck all against Cole who on other hand wont be that effective against Becks as he cant really be marked considering his style of play. Going forwards think Czibor would love to have a "playmaker" behind in McGrain while Jinky isnt bothered with who is behind him so Cashley can focus only on defending.

Good shout. McGrain quite regularly gets picked at left-back in Scotland all-time XIs.

Also agree with @GodShaveTheQueen about Suarez.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Well, this is dead.

let's get some conversations happening.

+ Kocsis is the best Forward on the pitch. His brilliant heading ability will be utilized fully by lovely Beckham crosses. Raul offers pace, movement and goal scoring ability and partnership is similar to that of Kocsis-Puskas.
+ I rate my Defence + GK higher both individually and as a unit.
+ Beckham is the gold standard for Right Mid and offers diverse threat to the tricky Overmars on other flank.
+ In central midfield, I believe I have a edge in flair/passing/creativity.

 

[TheReligion]

Calling Greaves Graves in the write up was the nail in the coffin for me.

 

[Theon]

Definitely agree with the Suarez point, was sure it was be him and Edwards. Really like Beckham / Kocsis as a partnership.

 

[TheReligion]

I actually really like the balance in @Edgar Allan Pillow XI to be honest.

The Overmars/Beckham
Raul playing off up top
Better cohesion in the defence

My only question mark would be the creativity of Edwards and Dunga however I am willing to look past it as the team is hard as nails and would batter me.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

My only question mark would be the creativity of Edwards and Dunga

Both of them were more than just midfield destroyers. Dunga was a intelligent and creative game manager. Edwards was a proper two way player with great attacking presence. Fergie did used to field Keane - Butt for big games. This has more flair than that!

 

[General_Elegancia]

+ Kocsis is the best Forward on the pitch. His brilliant heading ability will be utilized fully by lovely Beckham crosses. Raul offers pace, movement and goal scoring ability and partnership is similar to that of Kocsis-Puskas.

I would agree about this comment about Kocsis but in this game he will face Van Dijk who is 17 centimeters taller than him and has an athleticism to match him in the air. Beckham in this game I'm sure he wouldn't have so many chances that much about crossing, he will face Cole who is known for his defensive qualities and Forster who had an experience playing in back3 that relied a lot of abilities to cover full-back ( Briegel) and even if he crosses, Van Dijk will wait to duel with Kocsis.


Do you want Kocsis to win straight headers against this man?
Tbh, it's not easy.

+ I rate my Defence + GK higher both individually and as a unit.

That's pretty debatable and interesting topic. So, I will start about both teams individually skills first. This arguments will base on peak forms

Zoff vs Dasayev: I give it to Zoff. Base on I've watched overall your Zoff is better than Rinat but again not that much. For me peak Zoff was the best positioning gk that I've ever seen(on the level of Buffon), better in reading the games too, on reflex it's very debatable but I would give to Dasayev. Another one I see Zoff better is about handling, Zoff was better than Dasayev in this regard. Overall like I've said Zoff is better than Dasayev but he had some big flaws that I will tell in another comment and that will be even decide this game.

Van Dijk vs Hansen: As a Liverpool's fan, I give it to Van Dijk. He's arguably better overall center-backs. His aerial-dominating, body strength and athleticism are by far superior to Hansen. On reading the games and positioning, it's very close but overall skillsets I would give it to VVD.

Forster vs Stam: It's close tbh. Both of them had different skillsets. Forster didn't rely on athleticism as much as Stam, he relied on his positioning and reading the games more than him. On another hand Stam was superior athlete, so he used more of body balance and speed, which was his biggest strengths.

I believe that my central defenders pairing is better than your central defenders pairing.

Cole vs Evra: This is the easiest comparable, both of them was born in the same period and played in the same era. Overall, I rate Cole better than Evra. Cole had better peak forms than Evra and overall career he edges Evra, although it's not that much.

Amoros vs Mcgrain: I rate this to Amoros, Amoros was an overall better player than Mcgrain but Mcgrain is a great defender in his own ways and based on pure defensive skills, I rate him better than Amoros.

I think you can rethink cautiously about this topic again.

+ In central midfield, I believe I have a edge in flair/passing/creativity.

Edwards and Dunga is pretty solid midfield duo on the pitch for sure and like you've said before Edwards and Dunga was a intelligent and very creative players , especially Edwards whom for me was the most regrettable losing in the history of football. Although both of them were great at this department, there's no way both of them were as good as Breitner in term of passing and creativity and Breitner was one of the best attacking b2b of all time too. He was more professional in term of attacking and passing for sure.

Paul Breitner skills

Breitner even played more brilliantly, when he had Dremmler who was more defensive oriented and in this draft he will pair with an upgraded Dremmler . So he had more freedom to joining attack and scoring as a cm was one of his biggest strengths too. My midfields pairing will bring their biggest strengths in both of them (Dremmler and Breitner).

+ Beckham is the gold standard for Right Mid and offers diverse threat to the tricky Overmars on other flank.

Agree and I love Beckham too.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Another advantage of my team is wingers on both sides. Johnstone and Czibor are two of the very best wingers in the world during 60s and 50s respectively. Czibor is a better than player than Overmars for sure for Jinky and Beckham it's too much different playing styles to compare.

Czibor against Amoros: I never underestimate Amoros. Amoros for me was one of the best 2ways wingbacks in 80s for sure, he was a great defender too. Amoros wasn't liability for sure but what's his biggest strengths? His biggest strengths were going forward to support attacking phase, long range shooting and versality. Czibor and Cole will make him not going forward as much as he can do for sure and that's one of my advantages in this game. Beckham for me was a hell of defensive workers, he contributed a lot in defensive actions but Like I've said before, both of them will waste a lot of energies in track down and defense Czibor and Cole for sure and that mean your offensive contributions in right side are pretty less effective than you've expected. Amoros will worry a lot in defending Czibor and that he won't easily join Beckham every time.

Johnstone agaisnt Evra: As great as defender Evra was, Johnstone would cause a lot of problems for him and Overmars . Edwards won't help him every time due to his different duties in the field and he has to battle against my midfielders too.

Johnstone will cause problems to Evra more than Beckham will cause problems to Cole and another one Czibor will cause problems to Amoros/Beckham more than Overmars will cause problems to Mcgrain (I'm sure Amoros couldn't going forward as much as he can).

 

[General_Elegancia]

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I would agree about this comment about Kocsis but in this game he will face Van Dijk who is 17 centimeters taller than him and has an athleticism to match him in the air.

Boiling down heading in attack or defence down to height isn't really representative of reality. Here's a sample of header by Raul from Beckham that has nothing to do with height. Couple of other similar ones out there too.

And this is against Kocsis who was averaging more than a goal a game in his peak. I'd bet on Kocsis all game long!

Beckham in this game I'm sure he wouldn't have so many chances that much about crossing, he will face Cole who is known for his defensive qualities

This is another misrepresentation. Beckham is lethal from all over the midfield. One of the few mids who's just impossible to be shut down, far less by a defensive fullback by Cole (who's good against dribblers). Beckham will have time and space to ping in crosses and passes all game long.

 

[General_Elegancia]

This is another misrepresentation. Beckham is lethal from all over the midfield. One of the few mids who's just impossible to be shut down, far less by a defensive fullback by Cole (who's good against dribblers). Beckham will have

Yeah, Beckham is lethal from all over the field and very accurate passer. When he bombs his accurate passes to Kocsis, Forster and Van Dijk will meet Kocsis and I bet it's not easy job for Kocsis to find great positions for duel or win headers against Van Dijk and Forster, both of them are very intelligence defenders and are known for their positioning awareness. Both of them are great headers to match against Kocsis too (intelligence, positioning and leap).

Van Dijk also has experienced playing against Real Madrid's version of Ronaldo. That Real Madrid team used a lot of crossing strategies from Marcelo and Carvajal. Forster in real life also faced Santillana who scored more than 100+heading goals in his career(and scored 0 goals) . So, I'm sure both of them will deal well with Kocsis.

 

[Jim Beam]

Well, this is dead.

let's get some conversations happening.

+ Kocsis is the best Forward on the pitch. His brilliant heading ability will be utilized fully by lovely Beckham crosses. Raul offers pace, movement and goal scoring ability and partnership is similar to that of Kocsis-Puskas.
+ I rate my Defence + GK higher both individually and as a unit.
+ Beckham is the gold standard for Right Mid and offers diverse threat to the tricky Overmars on other flank.
+ In central midfield, I believe I have a edge in flair/passing/creativity.

So, in short your GK, attack, midfield and defence is better the way you see it.

But how would you rate and compare our teams overall?

You have a really nice team and I quite like Beckham, Amoros flank along with that attack. I will give you GK also, but it's a small margin. As for other things...

Forster - Van Dijk look perfect pair to match Raul - Kocsis. Stam - Hansen not so much for me and Hansen (especially against roaming Suarez) doesn't look that great.

Absolutely no chance that your midfield pair is better. Voronin - Breitner was our first two picks for a reason. We wanted that blend of defensive protection while being extremely comfortable on the ball (as a pure DM in 4-4-2 I rate only Redondo and Rijkaard higher) which Voronin will provide with a unique b2b dynamo of Breitner (again very few players can give you what Breitner gave at his peak in both direction, or 10+ goals per season as a main creative cog with a huge defensive contribution). They compliment each other so well as Voronin gives Breitner exactly what he needs behind to be fully in his element.

So yeah, absolutely no chance I can give midfield to you with all due respect for Edwards - Dunga. I don't think that even you would rate it higher if it isn't yours. I also don't think that Edwards - Dunga are so great midfield duo for a 4-4-2 and you should have gone with Suarez as already mentioned.

Lastly, Jinky > Evra. Aaron Lennon was killing Evra at his peak. Even Evra put him as one of his toughest opponent...

"He had this quick movement and it was difficult to play against him."

Now, Jinky doesn't have that same top speed, but his acceleration was similar while his technical ability was far superior than what Lennon brought on the table (brain wise they are also similar ). I love Evra, but you just knew he would get ripped every time by Lennon 1 on 1. Don't think Jinky will suit him either, especially as there won't be much help with your midfield having their own worries and Jinky being Jinky. Meaning, when he smelled the blood he just kept coming at you again and again.

Game of small margins, eh? Just think we have few more of them on our side.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So, in short your GK, attack, midfield and defence is better the way you see it.

But how would you rate and compare our teams overall?

What else do you want me to say?

I still think the most easiest path to goal across both teams is from Becks cross to Raul/Kocsis. Van Dijk is great, but he still has more to prove to be compared to Hansen, esp in consistency. I'd definitely rate Hansen-Stam as better both individually and as a complementary duo.

As to Suarez, his best partnerships were with likes of Sturridge and Messi, totally different types of players to Greaves. I don't think that dynamic will be as effective in getting out peak Suarez. I believe Greaves-Shearer is still a better partnership than Greaves-Suarez.

 

[Jim Beam]

@General_Elegancia delete that, for one you can't tell the score during the game and also it isn't correct.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Absolutely no chance that your midfield pair is better. Voronin - Breitner was our first two picks for a reason. We wanted that blend of defensive protection while being extremely comfortable on the ball (as a pure DM in 4-4-2 I rate only Redondo and Rijkaard higher) which Voronin will provide with a unique b2b dynamo of Breitner (again very few players can give you what Breitner gave at his peak in both direction, or 10+ goals per season as a main creative cog with a huge defensive contribution). They compliment each other so well as Voronin gives Breitner exactly what he needs behind to be fully in his element.

I would absolutely agree with this from Beam.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

As to Suarez, his best partnerships were with likes of Sturridge and Messi, totally different types of players to Greaves. I don't think that dynamic will be as effective in getting out peak Suarez. I believe Greaves-Shearer is still a better partnership than Greaves-Suarez.

Posted this a bit too late as I think its a very good point.

Tough luck @General_Elegancia @Jim Beam

 

[Jim Beam]

Well done @Edgar Allan Pillow. That's a damn fine team and knew it would be tough.

Thanks to my copilot @General_Elegancia. Was a pleasure to go together mate.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Congratulations @Edgar Allan Pillow , your team are the real deal.
Thank you for the great game.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Ah, I thought we were heading for a draw.

Quite a tight match. Was a pleasure @Jim Beam @General_Elegancia