The 442 Draft - R1 - P-nut vs Sjor/GSTQ

[GodShaveTheQueen]

---------------------------------------------------------PNUT---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------SJOR/GSTQ----------------------------------------------------

Team P-nut

Classic British 442 focusing on wing play and keeping the middle of the pitch solid.

Neuer allows a slightly higher line, bringing his sweeping skills to make a classic even stronger.

Neville and Cole are the golden British full backs of the 90s and 00s. Both being some of the last 2 way full backs, whilst ensuring they are solid defensively first and foremost.

Lucio and Terry provide the sweeper - stopper combo. Both having won it all and both playing under Mourinho at his peak when his centre backs were key to his success.

Matthews and Giggs are the flying wingers, pinning the opposition full backs in their own half, stretching the pitch and providing service to the front men.

Bozsik and Vidal much like the fullbacks are both 2 way players. Bozsik the silkier playmaking box to box with Vidal providing additional combativeness and steel to ensure we're the hardest working team on the pitch.

Eto'o and Kocsis provide the traditional striking duo. Kocsis uses his ariel prowess to dominate the opposing centre backs, releasing Eto'o to prowl for space and 1v1s.

Team Sjor/GSTQ

Style of play - Counter-attacking
442 itself is a more direct setup then some others so naturally counter-attacking style is often a chosen style. The whole drafting process was built around that idea:

Defending
Without a good defence the whole system goes to shit so we drafted 4 defenders first combined with a great on goal that suits the centerback partnership. Vogts is one of the rare balanced fullbacks that is actually an elite defender, former part was crucial as we didnt really want a defensive fullback so we can fully exploit the offensive benefits of a double wing. On the other side a more attacking Cabrini who was still a fine defender and between them the best CB partnership in the draft, classic sweeper stopper combo of Rio Ferdinand and Fabio Cannavaro. Van der Sar behind them, obviously proven partnership with Rio and a great fit for the whole defence considering his unmatched organizational skills and communication which are key in situations where you invite pressure.
If there was ever doubt, think modern game proved it once again that a good defence means feck all unless every player on the team puts in work, the good old "attacker is your first defender, goalie is your first attacker" so the rest of the team was built like that as well. Two hard working wingers in Conti and Boniek, Netto as elite defensive midfielder that built his game on brains rather then legs. To partner him we chose younger(Barca) version of Schuster, great combination of passing ability with plenty of graft and running ability both with and without the ball.
Up front hardworking Gigi Riva and a bit of a joker card in Florian Albert, who while was a willing runner, we would want him to stay relatively calm in the defensive phase, pick and choose a zone so when we win the ball his is the main outlet for the counter.

Attacking
Team is filled with brilliant footballers so if there is a need to mix it up and play, they are more then capable which is always very important. But primarily the team is built to dominate on the counter. From great distribution of the goalkeeper all the way to a bulldozing power of Gigi Riva. There are so many different avenues for this team to counter that we dont really know where to start. The counter-attacking potential of Boniek, Conti and Albert is just plain scary. We feel considering the strengths of this team and the opposition we can allow ourself to "save" Albert for the transition phase which is gonna make him even more dangerous.
With Netto playing in the holding role there should be plenty of chances for Schuster to buldoze his way through the center of the pitch and considering the passing ability of both, the opposition will have a tough if not impossible task of stopping this team considering they cover every possible route, from the passing counters all the way to ball carrying ones.

Factor X
We could talk and talk about someone like Florian Albert who gives a special aura to this team but this time thats not the case, its actually the whole left side of our team that id like to put some focus.
From the lovely and proven combination of Cabrini and Boniek, through Gigi Riva who loved to drift towards the left side all the way to a piece that just elevates that whole left flank to a very special level - Igor Netto. Absolutely perfect player for this team as he is that one that will free up Boniek to play to his full potential. In all segments of the game he is just a perfect jing to the polish jang. From the ability to cover flank in both defensive and offensive phase, from allowing Cabrini to bomb up, from being the perfect foil in terms of use of the ball and unselfishness which just gives Boniek the whole podium to do what he does best.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @P-Nut

cc: @Šjor Bepo

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Below is the compilation that convinced us that Boniek would be brilliant in this 4-4-2 as a free roaming left midfielder

1. Insane work rate for starters and I am not even overusing the term insane. Defends the flank all the way into his team's box.
2. The attacking play is there to see as with most of his compilations.
3. The support cast on left side of our team is all built to get the best setup and environment for him.
(a). The proven partnership with Cabrini
(b). Netto who loved the left side and will cover for him on the left both defensively and offensively when he drifts inwards (more details in OP)
(c). And finally Riva who loved to drift leftwards and can create some excellent interplay and positional exchange with Boniek.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And for those who haven't seen Albert in action - below is a compilation against Brazil from the 1966 WC to get a general idea of what he brings to the team. Extra points for noticing his game play was slightly tilted towards the right side of the pitch which fits well into our team.

 

[Himannv]

I find this a surprisingly dull affair, with both teams quite similar (possibly due to the rigidity of the formation). The quality of defense might be the differentiator, although the peanut team has better wingers and their tactic of “wing play” makes sense as a result.

The most entertaining aspect of the whole encounter was to decide what to call the second team - SjorShavesTheQueen or GodShavesSjor.

 

[Himannv]

Below is the compilation that convinced us that Boniek would be brilliant in this 4-4-2 as a free roaming left midfielder

1. Insane work rate for starters and I am not even overusing the term insane. Defends the flank all the way into his team's box.
2. The attacking play is there to see as with most of his compilations.
3. The support cast on left side of our team is all built to get the best setup and environment for him.
(a). The proven partnership with Cabrini
(b). Netto who loved the left side and will cover for him on the left both defensively and offensively when he drifts inwards (more details in OP)
(c). And finally Riva who loved to drift leftwards and can create some excellent interplay and positional exchange with Boniek.

Good argument although he can probably say the same of his right flank with Matthews as the focal point.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good argument although he can probably say the same of his right flank with Matthews as the focal point.

For me his right flank is his biggest weakness. Quite clearly our left side is designed for overloading and Neville won't have any support from Matthews. The lack of a really great RB and a winger that won't contribute at all off the ball against Boniek/Riva/Cabrini/Netto is a big problem IMO.

 

[harms]

Lucio and Terry provide the sweeper - stopper combo. Both having won it all and both playing under Mourinho at his peak when his centre backs were key to his success.

I assume that Lucio is the sweeper in this scenario? Because I don't think that he was one, actually. I think the interchangeable definitions of sweepers & liberos are responsible for this as we often associate ball-playing centre-backs that regularly join attacks with liberos (as most of the most notable examples were)... but Lucio was a stopper who had a habit of making those ball-carrying runs forward, not a sweeper.

 

[harms]

Who was @P-Nut other possible partner for Kocsis? I remember being quite excited about it. Was it Sívori?

Although I also feel that with both Schuster & Netto in midfield I'd rather see Mazzola up with Riva. But you can write it off as a personal preference, it's certainly not something that would instantly make SJTQ undeniably better.

 

[harms]

Oh, yeah, and an obvious question — which Schuster is this? Post-Diego Barça, I assume?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Although I also feel that with both Schuster & Netto in midfield I'd rather see Mazzola up with Riva.

We like Mazzola Riva better too, a lot better actually. Just wanted to give Albert an outing before we replace him next round (if we win obviously). Would have been hypocrisy to rant about not giving these names an outing and then not even giving him a game.

 

[Physiocrat]

I assume that Lucio is the sweeper in this scenario? Because I don't think that he was one, actually. I think the interchangeable definitions of sweepers & liberos are responsible for this as we often associate ball-playing centre-backs that regularly join attacks with liberos (as most of the most notable examples were)... but Lucio was a stopper who had a habit of making those ball-carrying runs forward, not a sweeper.

Actually that's fair. In Brazil's 2002 World Cup side it was Edmilson who was the sweeper and Lucio as the aggressive RCB.

 

[P-Nut]

I assume that Lucio is the sweeper in this scenario? Because I don't think that he was one, actually. I think the interchangeable definitions of sweepers & liberos are responsible for this as we often associate ball-playing centre-backs that regularly join attacks with liberos (as most of the most notable examples were)... but Lucio was a stopper who had a habit of making those ball-carrying runs forward, not a sweeper.

Yeah maybe it's the terminology aspect, when I say sweeper I mainly mean a more adventurous centre back looking to put their foot on the ball and advance the ball forward, rather than a safety first stopper.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Oh, yeah, and an obvious question — which Schuster is this? Post-Diego Barça, I assume?

Sorry, missed this earlier, below is from the OP

To partner him we chose younger(Barca) version of Schuster, great combination of passing ability with plenty of graft and running ability both with and without the ball.

 

[P-Nut]

For me his right flank is his biggest weakness. Quite clearly our left side is designed for overloading and Neville won't have any support from Matthews. The lack of a really great RB and a winger that won't contribute at all off the ball against Boniek/Riva/Cabrini/Netto is a big problem IMO.

Whilst Neville isn't considered a top class right back around here, you'll struggle to find a right back that has won more playing in a 442 than Nev. And whilst Matthews is more attacking than your usual winger in a 442the trade off is increased potency in the final third. Matthews - Kocsis is an obvious route to goal, especially against Cabrini which as you note yourself is a more offensive minded full back.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@P-Nut were you ever tempted to pick Hidegkuti? Sjor and I discussed the possibility of pairing them if available late but Koscis was never going to last that long

 

[Himannv]

For me his right flank is his biggest weakness. Quite clearly our left side is designed for overloading and Neville won't have any support from Matthews. The lack of a really great RB and a winger that won't contribute at all off the ball against Boniek/Riva/Cabrini/Netto is a big problem IMO.

I’m talking about the offensive impact of that flank. He has the best winger on the pitch in Matthews there with Neville supporting and both Eto’o and Vidal on that side. Not a lot different to what you’re pitching offensively with your left flank, hence my comment.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Whilst Neville isn't considered a top class right back around here, you'll struggle to find a right back that has won more playing in a 442 than Nev. And whilst Matthews is more attacking than your usual winger in a 442the trade off is increased potency in the final third. Matthews - Kocsis is an obvious route to goal, especially against Cabrini which as you note yourself is a more offensive minded full back.

Almost every player who played in the Fergie era would have won a lot mate. Now I am not going to diss Neville, but for me he was an average defender. Not a bad one at all, but not a great one by any stretch of imagination. Against a flank like that in a 442 where you can't have midfielders helping the fullbacks, it's necessary to have a hard working winger.

Matthews even limits Neville's game going forward here. Well documented that the former was a sole performer on the flank and never really allowed overlaps as Jimmy Armfield famously noted.

Oh and even if Cabrini was good offensively, he was an excellent defender first. And he has Boniek who will work his socks off.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I’m talking about the offensive impact of that flank. He has the best winger on the pitch in Matthews there with Neville supporting and both Eto’o and Vidal on that side. Not a lot different to what you’re pitching offensively with your left flank, hence my comment.

Yea, I understand that you were talking about the offensive impact but you can never look at a flank in a 442 from just 1 aspect. It's a very rigid formation as you earlier noted and you can't have too much room for flexibility while still getting the balance right. And without a question of a doubt, the balance is off there.

Matthews won't contribute off the ball and he won't let Neville contribute on the ball.

Best winger on the pitch, yes. But the worst out of the 4 flanks on the pitch too IMO.

Giggs/Cole is awesome, Conti/Vogts is excellent and Boniek/Cabrini is just perfect. In front of those 3 Matthews/Neville is quite pale.

Neville's performances as a player would always be linked with Beckham first and foremost. Perfect balance is the obvious reason.

 

[P-Nut]

@P-Nut were you ever tempted to pick Hidegkuti? Sjor and I discussed the possibility of pairing them if available late but Koscis was never going to last that long

If I didn't pick Eto'o so early than maybe, but Eto'o for me is the perfect second striker in a 442, given the GOATs are unavailable this draft. His speed, game intelligence and movement across the front line allow for overlaps all over the place or causing the defensive line to become ragged following him around.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

If I didn't pick Eto'o so early than maybe, but Eto'o for me is the perfect second striker in a 442, given the GOATs are unavailable this draft. His speed, game intelligence and movement across the front line allow for overlaps all over the place or causing the defensive line to become ragged following him around.

Ah, I missed that you picked Etoo first. Bepo was not a fan of your front 2 but I quite liked it as I noted during the drafting stage. Bozsik is a really needed player there considering you don't have a support striker or playmaking winger, so great choice with him too.

 

[P-Nut]

Ah, I missed that you picked Etoo first. Bepo was not a fan of your front 2 but I quite liked it as I noted during the drafting stage. Bozsik is a really needed player there considering you don't have a support striker or playmaking winger, so great choice with him too.

Yeah it's basically the traditional set up from the 90s with 1 creative midfielder and the other a box to box providing extra legs.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I'm very skeptical about Boniek at LW. He offers lot of graft and workrate defensively, but his offensive contributions tend to come in centrally. Even in the video above, Cabrini is the one providing width with Boniek in free role all over the middle, even pops up in right wing on second half. Looks more at him as LM in 4-3-3, tbh! There are other matches where his runs from left corner of box is prominent. Perhaps one of those videos might be more suited to this game. His best position for this draft would be SS behind the FW. Conti could also have done with a more attacking FB than Vogts down that flank.

as Jimmy Armfield famously noted.

Interesting. Love to read about this. Any links?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm very skeptical about Boniek at LW. He offers lot of graft and workrate defensively, but his offensive contributions tend to come in centrally. Even in the video above, Cabrini is the one providing width with Boniek in free role all over the middle, even pops up in right wing on second half. Looks more at him as LM in 4-3-3, tbh! There are other matches where his runs from left corner of box is prominent. Perhaps one of those videos might be more suited to this game. His best position for this draft would be SS behind the FW

Please read up on why Netto and Riva were chosen in the OP and in the comments posted later.

Conti could also have done with a more attacking FB than Vogts down that flank.

I don't think you have watched enough of Vogts then.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Interesting. Love to read about this. Any links?

Pretty sure I have watched the Armfield interview where he mentioned he tried to overlap Matthews but got scolded off by the latter. Will try to find it

 

[Theon]

I assumed Boniek would have played as a roaming second striker, not sure he has the positional discipline to play as a left-sided midfielder in a 4-4-2.

I think overall pnut has the clear edge in midfield and I like the balance of Bozsik next to Vidal playing box-to-box, whilst Giggs / Matthews crossing to Kocsis looks the cleanest threat offensively.

I think Sjor / GSTQ have the much better defence though and the Ferdinand / Cannavaro partnership is as good as it gets in this draft.

Up front both strike partnerships are complimentary and quite evenly matched. I thought pnut went too early with Eto’o first pick but it’s worked out quite well for him. For me it’s Kocsis who poses the biggest threat here though, I think he looks like the most dangerous out of all forwards on the park.

 

[Physiocrat]

I assumed Boniek would have played as a roaming second striker, not sure he has the positional discipline to play as a left-sided midfielder in a 4-4-2.

I assumed that although the problem is that his goal return was pretty low so it would all be on Riva. So Albert makes sense as an SS but yes Boniek isn't ideal on the left in a 442. That said it kind of makes some sense with Cabrini although it would be a bit of lopsided in attack which is fine

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Scrappy will lead the debate but just wanted to touch on the Boniek thing.....

I find it almost funny how he gets questioned considering he fits the role talent wise and we provided a proof of him playing in that role. Ok he isnt a classic winger but if we apply that rule in the whole draft then roughly 70% of picked "wingers" will face the same questions. The way i see it and the way i was taught is that as long as player has the discipline and workrate to defend the flank in deep positions he fits perfectly. Every player is different and you have zillion and one example from number 10s playing in wide 442 role such as Iniesta, Rivelino, Hagi etc. through box to box workhorses in no further then Cholo's Atletico example where you had guys like Koke, Saul, Turan playing there all the way to fluid players that roamed a lot like Figo, Nedved etc.
All examples worked because of one thing, they defended the bloody flank and formed 2 banks of 4.


From memory, think @Edgar Allan Pillow was arguing for Becks how he didnt play as a winger and that he was actually playing like a RCM, i guess he will complain about him as well? We gonna have some fun debates in coming days looking at the full squads post.

 

[Physiocrat]

I find it almost funny how he gets questioned considering he fits the role talent wise and we provided a proof of him playing in that role. Ok he isnt a classic winger but if we apply that rule in the whole draft then roughly 70% of picked "wingers" will face the same questions.

Not a problem I have

I think Boniek is fine with Cabrini behind him as stated above. It's not a trad 442 but still works as one.

 

[Himannv]

I don’t have an issue with Boniek there. I expected him to play as the second striker during the drafting but I don’t think he’s completely out of place on left wing. I think he’d cut in more than hug the touchline but that could be part of the tactics. The question is if that is indeed part of the tactics or not I suppose.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

From memory, think @Edgar Allan Pillow was arguing for Becks how he didnt play as a winger and that he was actually playing like a RCM, i guess he will complain about him as well? We gonna have some fun debates in coming days looking at the full squads post.

I was arguing he'd do well as a RCM too, never that he wasn't a winger considering he's played both roles.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I was arguing he'd do well as a RCM too, never that he wasn't a winger considering he's played both roles.

IIRC you argued how he was more like a RCM while playing as a winger which is why he would be a brilliant midfielder, something like that.

 

[Himannv]

Got any videos of Netto and Conti?

 

[General_Elegancia]

I don’t think I have a problem with Boniek plays at left-wing, although his natural games was roaming all over the pitches(left, right and central) and tending to cut inside to the middle of the pitch a lot. Although he had played at ss mostly in his Juve days, he usually preferred drifting left and would prefer to combo with Cabrini ( who was more of an offensive lb) many times. Like Godshave have said before that he will play at left-roaming midfielder, I think it’s good idea and would be great fit his attributes. Smart move

 

[General_Elegancia]

I assume that Lucio is the sweeper in this scenario? Because I don't think that he was one, actually. I think the interchangeable definitions of sweepers & liberos are responsible for this as we often associate ball-playing centre-backs that regularly join attacks with liberos (as most of the most notable examples were)... but Lucio was a stopper who had a habit of making those ball-carrying runs forward, not a sweeper.

I agree with this statement despite Lucio and Terry reminds me a lot of Lucio and Samuel. For me Samuel is a bit downgraded Terry. Lucio in Inter days was a better defender compare to his Leverkusen and Bayern, he changed his playing styles due to Mourinho tactics and I would say when both of them were on the pitch, Lucio was more of a covering cb who covered Samuel who was more of a pure-stopper. I can see Lucio and Terry partnership as Lucio-Samuel partnership esque.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Got any videos of Netto and Conti?

Think there is plenty of content of Conti on youtube right from goals/skills compilations to match compilations which come up on searching his name.

Netto compilations are below

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

On Boniek, I was really excited about what we built and although Sjor and myself had disagreements on almost every other outfield position (including the defense believe it or not), the Boniek role and environment was one which we were both very very happy with.

We obviously expected a lot of debate on the subject, but I think the Netto/Riva choices have simply not been taken into consideration by almost every one of the neutral views. There have been mentions of why its okay because Cabrini is there, but I think that is really under appreciating the thought that went into the setup. I would never play Boniek-Cabrini in a 4-4-2 just by themselves. Its the supporting cast of Netto and Riva that actually makes it really beautiful.

As I noted earlier, the 4-4-2 is a pretty rigid formation and there is not a lot of room for flexible players like Boniek unless you can nail the setup around them and in this case we have done exactly that.

As Sjor noted earlier, a 4-4-2 is not always meant to be very rigid in the attacking phase. It only needs to be very rigid in the defensive phase by making sure the two banks of 4 are defensively sound. There is no question of the two banks of 4 and their functionality in our team, its perfect. If anyone questions that bit of it, they dont know what they are talking about.

In the attacking phase though, below are a few of the many variations the team will probably transform to based on the attacking options that develop. Unless you are playing with two orthodox wingers with an old fashioned strike partnership (like in P-nut's excellent 442), every other 4-4-2 will transform into some shape or the other in the attacking phase. The great thing about ours is the number of combinations is just incredibly many due to the Boniek-Riva-Netto-Cabrini build.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Not that the above explanation should have too much bearing on the game considering we are in the last 2 hours, but I kind of dont want us to drop Boniek unless something really tempting comes our way in reinforcements (if we win). So felt a more detailed explanation was necessary.

 

[Himannv]

I’m not particularly convinced by the videos on Netto considering he’s sort of balancing that left flank and also keeping an eye on things centrally with the younger version of Schuster there. Anyway giving it the benefit of the doubt.

The defense is a more compelling reason to vote in my view.

 

[TheReligion]

Yeah I thought Boniek was a CM primarily.

How many games has he played LM or LW?