The basics - tactical fouls, game management etc.

[MUFC OK]

I haven't seen a thread on this to date. Everton's equaliser on Saturday resulted directly from Fred's failure to twice make a foul on Gray. Why was this not obvious to him as a professional footballer or to his teammates? I'm sure us fans were united in saying "make the foul" or to deal with the danger.

This reminded me of a few instances under OGS - the first was the Spurs game last year when we conceded a freekick and no one prevented it's early taking by standing on the ball - a goal resulted and we collapsed in that game.

In the EL final last year, Bruno won the coin toss and elected to shoot second - despite the fairly well known statistic that teams who go first win shootouts ~60% of the time.

Against Villarreal Dalot was continually 15-20 yards away from his man - we conceded several big changes and eventually a goal for which this was partly to blame. What happened to defending at arms length in close quarters and 5 yards away when the opposition have the ball in deeper areas?

these nuances are the hallmarks of experienced players and managers. Guardiola's teams have long since deployed tactics of taking a yellow card to stop counter-attacks. Chiellini's foul on Saka in the euros was another example - could never be more than a yellow under the rules but it stops an opportunity for the opposition.

Why do these rookie mistakes occur? These are red lines that every player should have in mind at all times. To me it falls on the coaching - if we cannot get these basics right, how can we develop elaborate tactical plans to beat the best teams and react to scenarios in game?

 

[Kaos]

When the extent of our coaching probably doesn't extend beyond "Lets give it a proper go, go out there and express yourselves lads", then its hardly surprising these basics aren't ingrained into our players.

 

[Counterfactual]

We're too nice.

Who on the current team snarls and bristles like Roy used to?

Maybe Ronnie as he walked off... and that's what we need more of.

 

[Ayoba]

Not taking off a player who has been booked in the 1st half and every subsequent foul he makes (regardless of whether it was even a foul) the opposition hound the referee for a 2nd yellow.

 

[Rash Decision]

Aiming to knock the Scousers off their fair play table perch I guess.

 

[Bubz27]

Ole knows about tactical fouling.

It does need to be engrained into the players but they need some initiative themselves.

 

[MUFC OK]

We're too nice.

Who on the current team snarls and bristles like Roy used to?

Maybe Ronnie as he walked off... and that's what we need more of.

I agree in that we have a huge problem in terms of standards - these things should be drilled into our players by the management and leaders on the pitch.

It shouldn't have to smack us in the face and cost us dearly before we realise.

 

[11101]

We don't do it because our players are not told to do it. Do you think Fernandinho goes out there hacking players down on his own volition? Of course not, he is instructed to do that.

The Everton goal highlighted a bunch of problems.

- Fred's weak challenge trying to keep the ball rather than clear the danger
- AWB standing off Gray
- McTominay letting his man run away from him
- Nobody covering Varane
- Shaw running to the ball and leaving space

Fred is unlucky to be singled out because he's the only one who actually tried.

 

[Foxbatt]

There is no DNA in the team. Gary Neville refusing to shake the hand of Big Peter comes to mind.

 

[Foxbatt]

We don't do it because our players are not told to do it. Do you think Fernandinho goes out there hacking players down on his own volition? Of course not, he is instructed to do that.

The Everton goal highlighted a bunch of problems.

- Fred's weak challenge trying to keep the ball rather than clear the danger
- AWB standing off Gray
- McTominay letting his man run away from him
- Nobody covering Varane
- Shaw running to the ball and leaving space

Fred is unlucky to be singled out because he's the only one who actually tried.

I have to agree. Yesterday City went long and nearly scores. We fanny around at the back always and concede sometimes.

 

[Giggsy13]

We're too nice.

Who on the current team snarls and bristles like Roy used to?

Maybe Ronnie as he walked off... and that's what we need more of.

Bruno has that fire in him and so does Ronnie. I still remember when Bruno went after Lindelof in the Sevilla Europa SF. We can only hope players are holding eachother accountable behind doors as well.

 

[Jericho]

Ole knows about tactical fouling.
It does need to be engrained into the players but they need some initiative themselves.

That one was the most obvious and necessary one ever though. It’s not always as obvious as that until looking back in hindsight. Literally ever goal could have been stopped by a foul when you look back at them.

 

[DickDastardly]

Ole knows about tactical fouling.

It does need to be engrained into the players but they need some initiative themselves.

Wow. Can't say i remember this game. What was it?

Hell of a challenge. Really went for the foul.

Love it to bits - he probably knows the Old man would have taken his head clean off had he not commited this.

What Ole needs is probably 10 to 20 years of life experience and coaching experience for him to make it.

 

[Resch]

The problem is, Ole does not have a plan, an idea how to play most of the matches. Good manager start most of the time with the same idea, and just adapt a little bit. They know against 9 out of 10 the basic plan is good enough to win. Ole has no idea how to coach a team a basic idea to win. United are moving the ball around and hoping to find a moment of brilliance. Such a manager does not have a plan to teach such basics.

 

[11101]

Wow. Can't say i remember this game. What was it?

Hell of a challenge. Really went for the foul.

Love it to bits - he probably knows the Old man would have taken his head clean off had he not commited this.

What Ole needs is probably 10 to 20 years of life experience and coaching experience for him to make it.

Newcastle. It was an important game for the title too.

He said SAF went mad at him after the game but secretly im sure he knew it was necessary.

 

[Bubz27]

That one was the most obvious and necessary one ever though. It’s not always as obvious as that until looking back in hindsight. Literally ever goal could have been stopped by a foul when you look back at them.

True. Do you think Fred would do the same?

 

[BusbyMalone]

In regards to the Fred situation, he did try and foul him, he's just too weak. Instead of going in with the sliding tackle and getting the ball, he tried to barge him out the way but came off worse. That's another thing against Fred - he has no football intelligence.

 

[Shane88]

It sounds good to say "Be cnuts" but we get ran through too much for tactical fouling to be a tactic.

Fernandinho or Rodri can do it because generally City dominate games and they can take a yellow for a rare counter attack by the opposition.

If we do it we'll have Fred and McTominay walking yellow card tightropes in the first half because we are so soft to attack against and we can't do it further up the field because our attackers don't hassle enough to be in a position to stop attacks very early.

 

[100]

Not even a fan of a tactical foul from Fred in that position - its pure hindsight. Decent positioning and defending gets us out of that 9/10 times, possession is being recycled and we're on the front foot again keeping Everton hemmed in.

It's just complete shit from 4-5 players, Fred included.

 

[Beachryan]

We're crap at the dark arts. I can think of probably 3 goals that wouldn't have been given against us if De Gea had gone down the way most keepers do. Calvert-Lewin basically punched him last season - if De Gea goes down rolling about, screaming bloody murder like every other keeper that gets touched, we get a foul. Similar if he drama'd up getting boxed out against Villa last week.

And yes, every Pep team ever has played with the knowledge that the players get at least 3 cynical fouls a match. And when you hold the ball for 70%, spread those across 3 players you only need that many to stop all counterattacks. It's horrible, snide, cheating and awesomely effective.

We're too nice, as well as being tactically naive and poorly coached. It's not great.

 

[MUFC OK]

In regards to the Fred situation, he did try and foul him, he's just too weak. Instead of going in with the sliding tackle and getting the ball, he tried to barge him out the way but came off worse. That's another thing against Fred - he has no football intelligence.

We have a real lack of physical nous amongst quite a few of our players. Fred, as you say needs to bulk up. Greenwood has gotten stronger but could do with some work from a strength and conditioning work. Lindelof could be a great CB if he was stronger but he's not. Amad is a featherweight with a low centre of gravity who would be a nightmare for defenders if he put in some work in the gym - it's the only thing that he's missing.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Fred tried to foul him, twice.

 

[Counterfactual]

Bruno has that fire in him and so does Ronnie. I still remember when Bruno went after Lindelof in the Sevilla Europa SF. We can only hope players are holding eachother accountable behind doors as well.

Agreed. Bruno has the fire. Where would we be without him signing? /shudder

 

[Eriku]

When the extent of our coaching probably doesn't extend beyond "Lets give it a proper go, go out there and express yourselves lads", then its hardly surprising these basics aren't ingrained into our players.

People actually believe this shit. Incredible.

I don’t think you lot understand what it takes to play at top level. If Ole were as empty as you lot think there’s no way we’d be making top 4 consecutive seasons.

 

[Jericho]

True. Do you think Fred would do the same?

No. You have me there. And worst still I think he'd just be swatted away even if he tried.

 

[devil99]

We just lack players with street smartness. We are too honest to be a successful team.

I wanted every one to surround and have a go at the referee like those Spanish teams do, when a foul by Greenwood was a yellow, but the same was not given to an Evertonian player ( Gray I guess ) which was more serious.

And I think we have one of the worst records when it comes to taking a throw-in, most of the time the ball ends up at opposition players.

We just learnt to not to defend too deep which was the case for few goals last season and these things can be clearly seen by anyone who is having a basic knowledge of football. I don't know why it takes so much time to see and analyse the very obvious issues.

And when it comes to offensive part of set pieces, we have one of the worst records I suppose. There is no plan A. Nobody is bothering the opposite keeper, no strategy and simply punt the ball into the box hoping it will meet some of our players.

 

[Giggsy13]

Agreed. Bruno has the fire. Where would we be without him signing? /shudder

He almost single handedly saved Ole’s job.

 

[bond19821982]

It's so easy to blame everything on Fred but he just got unlucky that Gray got better of him. The question should be how the feck did Docoure get enough time and space to pass it to Townsend and why the hell did Shaw ran into Docuoure leaving his man free.

Agree, a serious lack of understanding of basics is evident and that's on coaching team. Sometimes I do wonder it's partly down to people like Ole, Carrick, Mckenna etc. who has no experience in big European leagues.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I mean, last year I watched Fred put his head into a PSG player and miracurously not get a red card... and then be allowed to remain on the pitch long enough by our staff to eventually actually get sent off (and for a fair challenge no less)

We're not exactly the most streetwise team.

 

[Oranges038]

It seems like everything else, it's because the coaching is shit. Professional footballers need to be told how to do everything out there on the pitch otherwise they won't know what to do. It's amazing how little they are expected to be capable of doing on their own initiative.

Passing, movement, positioning and now general shithousery is on the list.

 

[Solius]

I’ve got no issue with Fred not deliberately fouling Grey. I’m always fuming at people like Fernandinho for doing it and I consider it cheating. So it would be hypocritical of me to want Fred to do that.

If he made a genuine attempt to challenge him then fair enough. It was a crap attempt at stopping him though.

 

[Zlaatan]

We're too nice.

Who on the current team snarls and bristles like Roy used to?

Maybe Ronnie as he walked off... and that's what we need more of.

I agree that we're too nice but I think it's more in the sense of tactical awareness rather than attitude. For example Fernandinho has probably stopped more counter attacks than any other player in history just by holding on to players arms or shirts an extra second or two, it's extremely cnutish but you don't really have to have adrenaline shooting out of your ears a la Keane to do it.

 

[Kaos]

People actually believe this shit. Incredible.

I don’t think you lot understand what it takes to play at top level. If Ole were as empty as you lot think there’s no way we’d be making top 4 consecutive seasons.

It was a tongue in cheek comment for the most part, of course I'd imagine our coaching to be a bit more than some sunday league instructions. But regardless, based on what we're seeing on the pitch I don't see how our coaching staff are doing a good enough job to get these players to operate as a cohesive, well drilled unit. We often seem all over the place and grasping for moments of individual brilliance. We also tend to be slow to react to being on the backfoot during the run of play. All those signs are damning indications of our coaching quality.

If you've watched the Liverpool-City or Liverpool-Chelsea games you'll see what I mean. Those teams are worlds ahead considering how their respective coaches set them up to play and more critically - how they respond when on the backfoot. Ole and his staff seem far too passive and it shows.

 

[Hughie77]

This is a good thread, as I think we are the worst team of not committing tactical fouls or even just slowing things down in general. Pool under klopp are the masters at it, he also did it at Dortmund, the always foul in the opposition half in the main it stops momentum stops breaks gives them time to reset. We don't do it always try to play the ball. Fred on Sat just has to boot the ball out instead he tries to control it to keep the ball, then disaster..

Sometimes just do the simple things, some of these players are to nice, the manager is to nice, there's no needle with him even when he does have a go it comes across as moaning instead. He needs to tell some of these opposition managers players refs anyone when he gets what he thinks a raw deal to feck off.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I'm not sure if this fits into this particular thread, but it does seem basic footballing to me.

When I watch United play against whatever team, be it Leciester or Brighton, one thing i notice is how easily their players can dribble the ball either to the corner for crosses, or to the edge of the box. They do not stop at the halfway point and then pass the ball around looking for some "opening." No they just run the ball down, our defenders follow them back until they are in a good position for crosses or maybe a through ball. AWB does get some early tackles in but it seems like nobody else does. Especially through the middle of the park where our McFred is. On the other hand, when we have th ball we pull up all the time when an opposing player is present. Rashford does not but he's injured. Greenwood also does continue a lot but almost nobody else does, especially Fred and McT. It seems like our players are very worried about losing the ball and not risk takers at all, making our attacking threat from the middle almost non-existent. Instead we wait for some brilliant pass or through ball while we pass the ball around the middle of the park.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Agreed. Bruno has the fire. Where would we be without him signing? /shudder

had we not got Bruno, Ole would have been gone a long time ago, let's be honest.

 

[RedDevil@84]

he probably knows the Old man would have taken his head clean off had he not commited this.

If you are talking about SAF, he scolded Ole for doing this and told him that at United, we don't do such stuff to win games.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Ole knows about tactical fouling.

It does need to be engrained into the players but they need some initiative themselves.

Fergie actually find him for it though. Insisting we don't do things that way at united

 

[Bubz27]

Fergie actually find him for it though. Insisting we don't do things that way at united

Take the fine and the win.

 

[Abraxas]

I think you could probably make a compliation of individual incidents resulting in poor goals or bad outcomes for most sides. Do we make more individual errors and fail to make the correct tactical fouls more often than most sides, or our rivals? Maybe.. probably..who knows? That's hard to say, it would certainly require some analysis and for the parameters to be defined. You can't just pick out a few incidents, I would say. That's football, you can distill any goal or bad result into moments. We seem to be going through a period of poor individual errors at the moment.

However I am not convinced it is the main concern because what is game management at its core? One small aspect might be tactical fouls, but actually game management is a lot easier if you simply keep the ball. If you can defeat a press, make the right decisions in the final third, put chances away, become compact in defence. If you have the fundamentals then I don't think you get into these situations as often and we'd call it excellent game management but actually it's just doing the job expected of a United side, especially against lesser sides.

It comes down to the fact we have very little control of football matches and that isn't about a vague notion of game management, it exists for the entirety of matches. Our matches are like ping pong at the moment. In these games we are liable to be put in a position where we're making errors because we're conceding the ball cheaply in a state of disorganisation. We're not killing games off and the problem is a lot more general than these isolated moments that are really symptomatic of wider issues offensively and defensively.