And Ole got us 2nd. Can you imagine what an average manager would have done for us?
The breaking of Manchester United
- Thread starter rcoobc
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
To be fair moyes didnt sack them. They just don't want to fully work under him and I can't blame them for that.
If i recall correctly Rene was very critical of him. He can't have that from managerial perspective. It's bound to happen either way.
Nobody counts that Covid no crowds season.
Thank you. Brilliant postAs with most things it wasn't that straightforward. I was only 10 and very much a TV-only fan when we won the European Cup in '68, so my time as a "real" fan began when it was obvious to everyone that the team was well on the slide. Just like now, there were those who just blamed the manager, and others to whom it was obvious that Sir Matt's continuing interference and the owners' unwillingness to invest were the real culprits. Sounds familiar, eh?
The relegation generated mixed feelings as well. The Doc came in just before Christmas '72, took an axe to the squad and kept us up at the end of the season by way of turning us into a team of cloggers. We started the following season in a similar vein, but some tine in early '74 started to play really nice football and put together a decent string of results. Sadly the goals dried up in the last few games and sure enough we were relegated. The nice football and much improved performances definitely created a feeling of optimism for the future though, which considerably softened the blow.
The wonderful football and good results picked up again immediately at the start of the following season, and visiting a load of new grounds in the Second Division was also tremendous fun for the legions of travelling hooligans - sorry: fans - so we got over it all pretty quickly
Glazers and not spending the Ronaldo money was the beginning of the concerns.
The biggest thing for me though was not hiring Jose straight away when SAF retired. He was clearly desperate for the job when we played Real in the CL. Sure, he would have likely had fall outs, been miserable, thrown tantrums and left within a few seasons, but he was probably the only person who could have made a half decent attempt at filling SAF's shoes. We would have had close to prime Jose rather than the version we got, we would have won at least one more title under Jose, wouldn't have had Moyes bleating about managing expectations and aspiring to play like our opponents, and we wouldn't have signed misfits like Mata and Fellaini.
The biggest thing for me though was not hiring Jose straight away when SAF retired. He was clearly desperate for the job when we played Real in the CL. Sure, he would have likely had fall outs, been miserable, thrown tantrums and left within a few seasons, but he was probably the only person who could have made a half decent attempt at filling SAF's shoes. We would have had close to prime Jose rather than the version we got, we would have won at least one more title under Jose, wouldn't have had Moyes bleating about managing expectations and aspiring to play like our opponents, and we wouldn't have signed misfits like Mata and Fellaini.
Oh that`s right, it was the English First Division then later became the Premiership before Premier League.
I know Dave Sexton who came after Tommy Docherty was the subject of complaints that he wasn`t a good communicator and the players didn`t really know what he wanted them to do but didn`t he put together the team that included Gordon McQueen and Joe Jordan - great players, both of them?
And that`s where Moyes` keenness to `prove` he was his own man was his own undoing along with other actions. He turfed Phelan out - the man who knew the club inside out and had the respect of the players. Phelan knew about man management just like Sir Alex and would have been a very useful ally to Moyes and calming influence on the players.
As for Rio Ferdinand being a `nothing` - please tell us what you`re on because it must be some truly mind-binding stuff. Rio came to United via West Ham and Leeds, always showing his class as a lad from a dangerous council estate who wanted to go somewhere in life and achieve excellence.
He did - and he`s forever in the history books as one of Manchester United`s all-time defensive greats. You mustn`t have watched any games where Rio played - the man was versatile including setting up attacks from defence and operating as a sweeper when required in addition to his other strengths. He was a rock and we won`t see his like again.
Absolutely just no. How can fans even say this.
Moyes and Woodward were the perfect storm. I think if we had either a world class manager or a competent CEO then we would have been a lot better off.
Unfortunately we had two guys that don’t know what their are doing coming in at exactly the same time.
Unfortunately we had two guys that don’t know what their are doing coming in at exactly the same time.
Is he wrong? He handpicked his successor which turned out to be a disaster.
But then again, Moyes lasted 10 months into his 6 year contract. It's been 8 years since then.
How long can we blame Moyes? It's 8 years later, and we've had two European Cup winners as managers since then.
Exactly, he lasted 8 months. Of all the things that the club have done wrong the last decade, to even have to mention SAF without listing all the others first is madness in my opinion.
Also blaming him for the sale of the club as if that couldn’t or wouldn’t have happened a few years down the line anyway.
Ferguson would be the last of my reasons of why we’re so shit at the moment.
Agree.. Not even Kloop or Pep would’ve made it under Woodward and his system.
True, I just think he'd have a general experience of many top clubs and therefore be able to give good advice on what other big clubs' structures looked like and what he might expect if the club was to continue to compete.
Additionally, I think he'd have got on well with Man Utd's big players and inspired them to keep playing above their grade in terms of age and miles on the clock. He'd have attracted some top talent. It does sound like Kroos was genuinely about to join United when Moyes was fired mind. Hey what can one do.
I didn't mind Dave Sexton. He did well with Chelsea and QPR. He wasn't as flamboyant as the Doc but he did bring in some good players like McQueen, Jordan, Thomas, and Ray Wilkins. Finished 2nd in 1980 and took us to Wembley in 1979. I don't know about his communication skills but we were a pretty solid team under him for a while but a lack of consistency cost him his job, like it did Ron Atkinson, his successor.
Read up on the Boubacar Sarr rape case. Ole was a grade A bellend.
Glazers buying the club was the start of the shitshow
Felt a little broken playing today's Missing 11 - Where were ya https://missing11.com/where-were-ya/
That's just incredibly poor and shows how many decent players we've gotten the absolute least out of
| 2011–2015 | PSV Eindhoven | 90 | (39) |
| 2015–2017 | Manchester United | 33 | (2) |
| 2017–2021 | Lyon | 139 | (63) |
| 2021 | Barcelona | 28 | (12) |
That's just incredibly poor and shows how many decent players we've gotten the absolute least out of
Because it's what happened.
Sir Alex Ferguson broke Manchester United. I disagree.
Summer of 2009 was when we stopped being the best team in England and generally speaking, we were second or third best in europe aswell, but that summer was awful.
From there, stuff like going out of the CL in the group stages in 2011-12 ringed alarm bells. The RVP signing really was a brilliant and quick fix, but the problems were always going to get bigger when he declined...
From there, stuff like going out of the CL in the group stages in 2011-12 ringed alarm bells. The RVP signing really was a brilliant and quick fix, but the problems were always going to get bigger when he declined...
Atkinson's side was much easier to watch. Some incredible players and performances. He was on the cusp of greatness only to let it slip. I loved that side.
His actions led directly to the Glazers having the opportunity to take control. He didn't do it on purpose of course. And he's still the greatest manager we ever had. But let's call a spade a spade.
Especially after we signed Robbo and Remi Moses. Playing a young Whiteside was inspired.
I honestly thought we would win it.
I was buzzing when Whiteside came through.
I though Sexton might have won the league too. A dodgy defeat at Forest and a last-game loss at Elland Road did for us, but their goal difference was miles better anyway. It really kicked off at Forest, after they got a really soft penalty and Sammy Mac got red-carded. Even the Forest fans didn't think it should have been given, but things got a bit lively after the match.
Remember whenNorm clattered McMahan at Anfield? McMahan had been kicking lumps out of Strachan all game but Norman came on and decked him. McMahan limped off the pitch. Jummy Hill in his snide fashion, said something like Norman should have been arrested for the tackle, conveniently forgetting that his beloved Liverpool had stared the rough stuff. Strachan scored the equalizer at the Kop, the scousers went ballistic.
loved it.
EDIT:
Sexton's football was boring.
But he did quite well with what he had.
My favourite pre Fergie (post Busby) manager was the Doc.
great footy to watch.
Furthermore, our way out of this - or at least for the club - is putting SAF in historical context, with all the respect and affection that is his due, and moving on. We can’t live in the past. We were privileged to have SAF, he was a winner. He is human though - there was good and less good.
I agree.
But Fergie looked after himself.
His ego allowed him to be used by the Glazers. (Moyes)
I think right now ranks pretty high for brokenness. A season that felt so full of promise, and then the total collapse of the whole Ole era within a few weeks really. With repercussions reaching backwards, as it became clear that a lot of the negativity that once seemed misplaced or exaggerated was, well, true. And then the slowly unfolding nightmare of the Rangnick intermezzo that just reflected so horribly on everyone - Rangnick, the players, the club management. And then....nothing. Rather than treating last season as the cataclysm it was, the club's mentality seems to be one of continuing incremental improvement, as if this was just a minor setback. Rangnick said a lot of stuff in pressers that were perfectly true, and which really had quite dramatic implications. And which in the end meant nothing. Club just shrugged and moved on. "Look, new guy in the chair. Things will be better now. We believe this is a very talented squad." Currently I find it impossible to conjure any sense of belief or optimism. Started up a FM game for the first time in ages, and found myself instinctively avoiding any player associated with Man Utd. I don't even want to think about them.
(Not even the transfer window can get the juices flowing. Most rumours I read, the reaction is "what, why"?. Like Robert Lewandowski. What, we need two star strikers in their mid/late thirties? On a team that will evidently play 4231? It's generally strikers, No 8s and CBs, rather than defensive midfielders, RBs and positionally versatile forwards, which seems to me to be the areas where we have gaping holes.)
(Not even the transfer window can get the juices flowing. Most rumours I read, the reaction is "what, why"?. Like Robert Lewandowski. What, we need two star strikers in their mid/late thirties? On a team that will evidently play 4231? It's generally strikers, No 8s and CBs, rather than defensive midfielders, RBs and positionally versatile forwards, which seems to me to be the areas where we have gaping holes.)
the day they appointed - maybe that should be annointed - Moyes, seemingly without considering anyone else. And I'm afraid I blame SAF for this as much as anyone else.
It was so obvious that he had no idea how to manage a club like United, no idea how to spend the money at his disposal. Some think he was a bit like Fergie but he'd never, for instance, broken Liverpool's dominance in the way SAF did in Scotland with Celtic and Rangers. Also, the timing of SAF's retirement has always irked me. He must have know he was leaving and they could have approached some much better prospects in between that decision being made and it actual happening. Did they think of approaching Pep before he went to Bayern? Or Jose before it all went arse up for him? Even Capello would have been a better choice.Or Valverde. I'm aware of the rumours that, sometime later, Klopp turned us down...
I said this on the day Ole got the job full time (the club having said they'd wait until the end of the season) and got a lot of abuse on here. But it was about as obvious as the fact that Tuesdays follow Mondays
I think the rot started while Fergie was still in charge, Firstly getting that team to the title was a minor miracle, it was full of players on there last legs you just need to look at the numbers of that squad that retired over the next 2 seasons. But while that was incredible achievement, Fergie who had made his name being ruthless in moving players on over the 1st 2 decades of his rule at the end clung on to to many players far to long.
But the moment that Truely broke us was the hiring of Woodward, who clearly didnt know how to run a the football side of the business and was basically given free rein for nearly a decade.
But the moment that Truely broke us was the hiring of Woodward, who clearly didnt know how to run a the football side of the business and was basically given free rein for nearly a decade.
the writing was on the wall the day of the 5-5 draw with West Brom - in normal circumstances, SAF would have exploded at that result!
Both Sexton’s and Atkinson’s sides were devastated by injuries. Wilkins was brilliant in his first season (the one when we finished second), being deployed as a deep lying playmaker in a 4-1-4-1. He was injured for virtually all of the following one and we were hopeless. McQueen became injury-prone the moment he arrived at OT as well.
I think the writing had been on the wall for a while, we hadn't signed a first center midfielder in 6 years. Are first-choice centre back pairing where still Rio and Vidic, both of whom couldn't play every match because of their injury history. Scholes and Giggs were regularly job sharing in midfield despite being close to 40, RVP as good as he had been had to train in a very careful was because of his injury history. We had basically stopped bringing through youngsters. Even after every win the consensus 90% of the time seemed to be we didn't play well but we got the result and that's what matters (and at the time it was). It felt like we were a squad held together by pain-killing injections and Fergies will power and experience. But because we had Fergie people didn't realize how deep the issues were.
Then he left and we hired Woodward and Moyes who were both out of their depth and everything fell apart. Since then we have wasted over a billion in net spending trying to rebuild but when the person spending doesn't know what there doing it makes no difference.
Wait so Liverpool didn’t actually win the PL?
I won't be popular saying this but we broke when we sacked Moyes (too early in my opinion).
We were more than happy to give OGS more time despite him being no better than Moyes yet at least Moyes had a pedigree with Everton and is showing his abilities with West Ham again. Simply put.....we panicked and after sacking Moyes we then started chasing rainbows rather than having a realistic plan.
We took Van Gaal largely on the back of his very recent experience in a major summer tournament. Mourinho always seemed destined to manage United but when he did he acted as if the job was slightly beneath him. He also was starting to show signs of decline as a modern day manage after his toxic spell at Madrid.
It’s impossible to predict what would have happened- but I agree that Moyes did not get the chances that all subsequent managers did. And he really wasn’t backed in the transfer market either- only Fellaini that summer. In my opinion he had the most difficult job because he came directly after a club legend - the set up of the club was just ‘more of the same’, and it took about 5 years to realise that this simply wasn’t enough.
Two wrongs don't make a right, moyes was simply not upto it and had all the wrong characteristics, he would have torn the dressing room apart.
He's simply not built for top clubs , west ham is his level, which isn't to say he's a bad manager, just not suited for United.
More an ongoing erosion over the last 10 years or so than a definitive breaking....from the Glazers taking over to having Woodward in charge of footballing decisions, the latter being singlehandedly more responsible than anyone in the "breaking" of Man United imo.
To be honest I feel broken when I see the players on the pitch looking broken, I mean if they give up then we're well and truly fecked!
But hopefully now Woodward has been replaced by football people, the rot can be stopped and treated and any deadwood can be ripped out and some new Timber (jurrien, amongst others )can be brought in.
Over to you Arnold, Murtough and Ten Hag.
Keep the Faith!
To be honest I feel broken when I see the players on the pitch looking broken, I mean if they give up then we're well and truly fecked!
But hopefully now Woodward has been replaced by football people, the rot can be stopped and treated and any deadwood can be ripped out and some new Timber (jurrien, amongst others )can be brought in.
Over to you Arnold, Murtough and Ten Hag.
Keep the Faith!