The British Empire

sammsky1

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The British Empire is trending on Twitter due to the subject below:


Many other tweets offering views:



 
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Cloud7

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The British empire sowed the seeds of racism in my country. The two predominant ethnic groups were the slaves brought from Africa, and indentured laborers brought in from India. These two groups were deliberately pitted against each other, with conflict and comparison pushed by the empire so as to ensure that both groups never realized we were exactly the same and properly unite against them. Divide and conquer as it were.

We’re literally still living with the effects of that to this day because of those learned beliefs passed down from generation to generation, and it’s still a major issue for us.

It’s like one of my consultants said recently. ‘The white man pitted Charles against Singh (Common black and indian last names in my country) and made it such that when they can’t settle their disputes they have to call in Allister from England to sort it out.
 

sammsky1

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The British empire sowed the seeds of racism in my country. The two predominant ethnic groups were the slaves brought from Africa, and indentured laborers brought in from India. These two groups were deliberately pitted against each other, with conflict and comparison pushed by the empire so as to ensure that both groups never realized we were exactly the same and properly unite against them. Divide and conquer as it were.
We’re literally still living with the effects of that to this day because of those learned beliefs passed down from generation to generation, and it’s still a major issue for us.
It’s like one of my consultants said recently. ‘The white man pitted Charles against Singh (Common black and indian last names in my country) and made it such that when they can’t settle their disputes they have to call in Allister from England to sort it out.
Can you share which country you are taking about? Could be one of many nations!
 
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Cloud7

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Can you share which country you are taking about? Could be one of many nations!
True :lol:

The beautiful twin island republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Home of Dwight York and the Caf’s favorite doctor (me).
 

sammsky1

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True :lol:
The beautiful twin island republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Home of Dwight York and the Caf’s favorite doctor (me).
When I was alot younger and uneducated, and watched the great West Indies cricket team led by Clive Lloyd and Vivian Richards, I was always confused as to why so many black people lived in West Indies, when there were none in neighbouring countries. I also didn't understand how people like Alvin Kallicharan ended up there either!

Who is the original ancestral race who lived in West Indies, before Africans and Indians were imported by British as slaves? Do they still exist in large numbers?
 

ivaldo

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The British Empire was no different to any other colonial empire in the sense that it pillaged and destroyed for the betterment of its own people. There's a degree of entitled hypcrisy from those negatively affected, as if their ancestors didn't carry out the very same acts, if not on the same scale.

Multicultural empires take the blame for postcolonial ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile, the ethno-nationalists who caused their collapse get off without criticism, and any evils continued by successor states are waved off as 'the legacy of the old empire.'

Britain has been invaded over 70 times in the last 1,000 years. It has seen it's fair share of aggressive oppressors. You'll have Indians, for example, rightly point out the atrocities caused by the British Empire during it's occupation, while downplaying any benefits. Less will be said about the Indians own Hindu Nationalists that conduct their own form of oppression. Anti-British sentiment is usually the driving factor for nationalists to carry out much of the crimes they vilify Britain for. There's so much revisionist double standards that comes with the British Empire. British settlement of New Zealand and the erasure of Maori culture is a good example, while Maori's own colourful history of expansionism across Oceania will be conveniently ignored.
 

sammsky1

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The British Empire was no different to any other colonial empire in the sense that it pillaged and destroyed for the betterment of its own people. There's a degree of entitled hypcrisy from those negatively affected, as if their ancestors didn't carry out the very same acts, if not on the same scale.
Multicultural empires take the blame for postcolonial ethnic cleansing. Meanwhile, the ethno-nationalists who caused their collapse get off without criticism, and any evils continued by successor states are waved off as 'the legacy of the old empire.'
Britain has been invaded over 70 times in the last 1,000 years. It has seen it's fair share of aggressive oppressors. You'll have Indians, for example, rightly point out the atrocities caused by the British Empire during it's occupation, while downplaying any benefits. Less will be said about the Indians own Hindu Nationalists that conduct their own form of oppression. Anti-British sentiment is usually the driving factor for nationalists to carry out much of the crimes they vilify Britain for. There's so much revisionist double standards that comes with the British Empire. British settlement of New Zealand and the cleansing of Maori culture is a good example, while Maori's own colourful history of expansionism across Oceania will be conveniently ignored.
Emoticon for two bolded parts : :houllier::houllier:

Train wreck of a post, full of sweeping and unsubstantiated generalisations. Bloody blood heck.
 

Cloud7

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When I was alot younger and uneducated, and watched the great West Indies cricket team led by Clive Lloyd and Vivian Richards, I was always confused as to why so many black people lived in West Indies, when there were none in neighbouring countries. I also didn't understand how people like Alvin Kallicharan ended up there either!

Who is the original ancestral race who lived in West Indies, before Africans and Indians were imported by British as slaves? Do they still exist in large numbers?
To add some contrast to your first point, a lot of people in other countries are absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that there are people of indian descent in the Caribbean :lol:

Our indigenous people came up from South America. The two most well known groups were the Taino and the Kalinago, although there were other, smaller groups as well.

Unfortunately they barely exist at all these days. A lot of them were decimated by the diseases and harsh working conditions forced upon them, which were started initially by the Spanish. We have like a few pockets of descendants of these people here and there, but they’re very scarce.
 

OleBoiii

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Can we all just accept that human history is riddled with horrors mainly caused by humans, regardless of religion, nationality and ethnicity? And can we also agree that patriotism is moronic?

Cool.
 

ivaldo

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Emoticon for two bolded parts : :houllier::houllier:

Train wreck of a post, full of sweeping and unsubstantiated generalisations. Bloody blood heck.
I figured you wouldn't actually try to substantiate any rejection of the convenient truth. Keep the hypocrisy rolling. Incredible you say that about my post after some of the drivel you shared in your OP.
 

ivaldo

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Can we all just accept that human history is riddled with horrors mainly caused by humans, regardless of religion, nationality and ethnicity? And can we also agree that patriotism is moronic?

Cool.
Bingo.
 

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Emoticon for two bolded parts : :houllier::houllier:

Train wreck of a post, full of sweeping and unsubstantiated generalisations. Bloody blood heck.
That’s ironic, coming from someone tweeting random people spouting sweeping and unsubstantiated statements. ;)
 

ivaldo

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That’s ironic, coming from someone tweeting random people spouting sweeping and unsubstantiated statements. ;)
Nah. His sweeping, unsubstantiated statements and a trainwreck of a thread is all fine.
 

hobbers

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100 million native americans :lol:

There's unsubstantiated and then there's the delusional ramblings of a maniac.
 

Cloud7

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Can we all just accept that human history is riddled with horrors mainly caused by humans, regardless of religion, nationality and ethnicity? And can we also agree that patriotism is moronic?

Cool.
Acknowledging the atrocities committed by an empire, particularly where a lot of these countries are still plagued by the after effects of said colonial rule is important and should not just be glossed over by saying ‘Well everyone was bad’.

Or let me put it a different way. I live in a country of 1.2 million people. Our indigenous people were exterminated. We’ve never invaded anyone, never owned an empire, taken part in any wars or committed any atrocities. We’ve not been part of any of those acts that you mentioned. Is it okay for me to talk about this? Or should it still be disregarded as everyone was bad?
 

OleBoiii

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Acknowledging the atrocities committed by an empire, particularly where a lot of these countries are still plagued by the after effects of said colonial rule is important and should not just be glossed over by saying ‘Well everyone was bad’.
I agree completely.

I only have an issue with "reverse pissing contests". Probably 90%(or more) of countries today have some darkness in their past. Colonialism is not the only way. Internal conflicts are often just as horrific.
 

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I agree completely.

I only have an issue with "reverse pissing contests". Probably 90%(or more) of countries today have some darkness in their past. Colonialism is not the only way. Internal conflicts are often just as horrific.
But comparing colonialism and imperialism with neighboring countries/cities/tribes having a go at each other kinda downplays how horrible colonialism was.

Why not not just recognize that dark past and see what can be done now to correct some things (some things are impossible to correct) and inform people about history instead of sounding defensive with stuff like "oh but they killed each other in internal wars which were pretty brutal all the time".

Talking about one issue doesn't force anyone to bring up another.
 

Tyrion

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Can we all just accept that human history is riddled with horrors mainly caused by humans, regardless of religion, nationality and ethnicity? And can we also agree that patriotism is moronic?

Cool.
Yep, that's my thoughts. I'm Irish and I've seen plenty of idiots (including me sometimes) say "Up the RA" which I don't see as much different from a British person being proud of the Empire (aside from the difference in scale). Nationalist pride in an aspect of your country's history that hurt plenty of innocent people.

I don't see the British empire as more or less evil than most other empires and I think Ireland would have behaved almost identically if we were in a similar position and had similar power.
 

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Why am I not surprised by the user who made this thread :rolleyes:

Empires have been around since the existence of humans, and guess what, there's never been a non brutal one, but the constant focus is always the British one, the issue that annoys people is the fact they won the game of empire, and influenced the majority of the world, if it wasn't them it would have been someone else.
 
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sammsky1

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Why am I not surprised by the user who made this thread :rolleyes:
Empires have been around since the existence of humans, and guess what, there's never been a non brutal one, but the constant focus is always the British one, the issue that annoys people is the fact they won the game of empire, and influenced the majority of the world, if it wasn't them it would have been someone else.
I have no idea who you are, you've never registered on my radar and so totally invisible and irrelevant for me. But your response aptly describes the type of views you will inevitably hold. Good to know.
Reading such posts must tear you up inside. ;) Ouch!
 
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Sweet Square

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Not surprising that on the first page people are already down playing the discussion.

Quick tip - If you don't want to discuss the British empire then don't click on a internet thread about the British empire.
 

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I figured you wouldn't actually try to substantiate any rejection of the convenient truth. Keep the hypocrisy rolling. Incredible you say that about my post after some of the drivel you shared in your OP.
I agree with @sammsky1 here. First, your post is a load of whataboutism. 'Everyone in the position of the British Empire was or would have been evil, so it doesn't matter.' Try that in a criminal defense court! 'It was just human nature, your honour!'

And this point about the benefits is extremely condescending. As if people in India, North America, and everywhere else would have remained in the Stone Age if it weren't for the colonists! Also, if advancing others (anyway a subjective point) had been the point, surely there is a way to have a positive influence without being extortionist, racist dictators.

Also, if @sammsky1 has to explain why he thinks your post is bad, why can you call his OP drivel without providing arguments?

You're welcome to refute it with tweets or evidence of your own.
100 million native americans :lol:

There's unsubstantiated and then there's the delusional ramblings of a maniac.
Despite my comments above, the tweet about Native Americans is indeed wrong - but you're both wrong about how. Read Charles Mann's 1491, which is an amazing overview of life and culture in the Americas before and around colonization. It is indeed likely that some 90% of Native Americans died due to colonization, and that may well have amounted to some 100 million people. (Estimates were long based on numbers of survivors, which were hence massive underestimates.) But the overwhelming majority of them died due to smallpox and similar lethal infectious diseases that the continent hadn't known before. That wasn't intentional by the colonists. Not that they're innocent in their behaviour though; their subsequent conquest, suppression, and other treatment of Native Americans is horrendous - but that's not the focus of the tweet.
 

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I love this video btw. It shows the enormous and long-lasting damage of colonialism and racism, and how it reverberates until today. That's why apologies or antiracist laws don't make up for anything. It's nice that we say we know better now (although the mistreatment continues in more subtle ways), but it does nothing for all tye damage that has been caused and continues to have its impact. Concrete actions to wrong rights is required.

Yes, that's expensive, but if western Europe's wealth has a strong foundation in colonialism, then it only makes sense to say that a good part of that wealth actually belongs to others. So it's not a question of making expenditures, but returning stuff to their rightful owners. (Even if that's now of course impossible to actually quantify.)
 

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I like how one of the ‘defences’ is we built a great rail system to steal your wealth

Its stolen now so be grateful for the trains, cnuts
 

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Despite my comments above, the tweet about Native Americans is indeed wrong - but you're both wrong about how. Read Charles Mann's 1491, which is an amazing overview of life and culture in the Americas before and around colonization. It is indeed likely that some 90% of Native Americans died due to colonization, and that may well have amounted to some 100 million people. (Estimates were long based on numbers of survivors, which were hence massive underestimates.) But the overwhelming majority of them died due to smallpox and similar lethal infectious diseases that the continent hadn't known before. That wasn't intentional by the colonists. Not that they're innocent in their behaviour though; their subsequent conquest, suppression, and other treatment of Native Americans is horrendous - but that's not the focus of the tweet.
There is also the minor detail of the British Empire only colonizing a minor fraction of the Americas.
 

Cheimoon

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There is also the minor detail of the British Empire only colonizing a minor fraction of the Americas.
Obviously, that as well. Smallpox was first brought in by the Spanish probably. As I said, there is a lot of negative stuff to be said about the colonizers of the Americans - but not this one point.
 

hobbers

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Despite my comments above, the tweet about Native Americans is indeed wrong - but you're both wrong about how. Read Charles Mann's 1491, which is an amazing overview of life and culture in the Americas before and around colonization. It is indeed likely that some 90% of Native Americans died due to colonization, and that may well have amounted to some 100 million people. (Estimates were long based on numbers of survivors, which were hence massive underestimates.) But the overwhelming majority of them died due to smallpox and similar lethal infectious diseases that the continent hadn't known before. That wasn't intentional by the colonists. Not that they're innocent in their behaviour though; their subsequent conquest, suppression, and other treatment of Native Americans is horrendous - but that's not the focus of the tweet.
No I was aware of that. But in a tweet listing the supposed genocides of the British Empire it's a risible, laughable, brainless thing to include, at least if you want to look even remotely credible.

Not just because the overwhelming majority of deaths were due to illness rather than murder, but also because Britain was obviously only a small part of the colonisation, along with the rest of Europe.
 

Cloud7

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I’m curious as to why this is such a touchy topic with people on here? Yes, the Spanish, Dutch, French, Portuguese colonizers all certainly played their part in wreaking havoc, however as one poster further up so eloquently put it, the British ‘won’ the game of empire, so surely the lasting effects of said victory, many of which are most definitely still felt today, as people have pointed out over and over, is fair game for discussion. Why does this seem to bother posters here?
 

Cheimoon

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I’m curious as to why this is such a touchy topic with people on here? Yes, the Spanish, Dutch, French, Portuguese colonizers all certainly played their part in wreaking havoc, however as one poster further up so eloquently put it, the British ‘won’ the game of empire, so surely the lasting effects of said victory, many of which are most definitely still felt today, as people have pointed out over and over, is fair game for discussion. Why does this seem to bother posters here?
It's hard to have your foundational views about the world and your country's/continent's role in it (its history and current order/balance) challenged to the core.
 

Abizzz

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Despite my comments above, the tweet about Native Americans is indeed wrong - but you're both wrong about how. Read Charles Mann's 1491, which is an amazing overview of life and culture in the Americas before and around colonization. It is indeed likely that some 90% of Native Americans died due to colonization, and that may well have amounted to some 100 million people. (Estimates were long based on numbers of survivors, which were hence massive underestimates.) But the overwhelming majority of them died due to smallpox and similar lethal infectious diseases that the continent hadn't known before. That wasn't intentional by the colonists. Not that they're innocent in their behaviour though; their subsequent conquest, suppression, and other treatment of Native Americans is horrendous - but that's not the focus of the tweet.
Another part of the story is that diseases have always played a part in European war though. People used to through cadavers into castles to poisen the water... While one can't blame the individual settlers the organization had a good clue about what was going on.
 

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Brits while looks gentlemen and trying to act like one is cruelly evil in their scheme.

They have this habits of sowing discord creates tension. The legacy they left behind lingers for generations.
 

Cheimoon

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Another part of the story is that diseases have always played a part in European war though. People used to through cadavers into castles to poisen the water... While one can't blame the individual settlers the organization had a good clue about what was going on.
Yeah, they probably used it strategically once they understood what was going on; but the population in many parts of the Americas had been decimated even before Europeans got there, because the disease started travelling along trade routes as soon as it arrived in the Americas, much quicker than the European advance.
 

Cal?

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Well, Hong Kongers are eternally grateful for British colonialism, and would much rather return to being a colony than the current CCP authoritarian regime.
 

VorZakone

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Funny how in these type of discussions some people completely ignore the fact that the world of today is influenced by history. There are still long-lasting effects going on.