The British Empire

[Cheimoon]

Just to be clear, i have absolutely nothing with the monarchy. To me, it's insane that we still have these institutions in this day and age. It just does not seem to be a huge issue that signifies something about national identity to me.

You must be joking if the new treaties are going to better. Even all current governments have a hard time respecting the old ones.

Well, they would be extremely hard to negotiate, of course; but attitudes towards Indigenous Peoples are better now than they were a century ago and whenever else the current treaties were created, so I'd expect a better deal for them in the end. If any treaty could be concluded at all. Indigenous Peoples would (rightfully) probably want more than any government would now be willing to offer (due to current population spread and economic consequences; the usual lame arguments), so actually getting new treaties might turn out impossible.

 

[2cents]

Ireland has yet to come to terms with its imperial past
Some celebrate and some excoriate connections with the British Empire

“...(on) April 13th, 1919, up to 1,500 Indian men, women and children were butchered at what is now known as the Amritsar Massacre at Jallianwala Bagh in the Punjab. When this was aired across Irish media as part of the commemoration of the massacre, people struggled to comprehend the bloody role played by the commanding officer that day, Colonel Reginald Dyer, educated in Middleton in Co Cork, and his superior, the lieutenant governor of the Punjab, Michael O’Dwyer, a Catholic from Co Tipperary. Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire, not active perpetrators of it...”

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampp...rms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146?mode=amp

 

[Tincanalley]

I agree with @sammsky1 here. First, your post is a load of whataboutism. 'Everyone in the position of the British Empire was or would have been evil, so it doesn't matter.' Try that in a criminal defense court! 'It was just human nature, your honour!'

And this point about the benefits is extremely condescending. As if people in India, North America, and everywhere else would have remained in the Stone Age if it weren't for the colonists! Also, if advancing others (anyway a subjective point) had been the point, surely there is a way to have a positive influence without being extortionist, racist dictators.

Also, if @sammsky1 has to explain why he thinks your post is bad, why can you call his OP drivel without providing arguments?




Despite my comments above, the tweet about Native Americans is indeed wrong - but you're both wrong about how. Read Charles Mann's 1491, which is an amazing overview of life and culture in the Americas before and around colonization. It is indeed likely that some 90% of Native Americans died due to colonization, and that may well have amounted to some 100 million people. (Estimates were long based on numbers of survivors, which were hence massive underestimates.) But the overwhelming majority of them died due to smallpox and similar lethal infectious diseases that the continent hadn't known before. That wasn't intentional by the colonists. Not that they're innocent in their behaviour though; their subsequent conquest, suppression, and other treatment of Native Americans is horrendous - but that's not the focus of the tweet.

Top, top, post.

 

[Tincanalley]

Colonialism has an impact on colonists. Feelings of superiority, brutalist art, brutalist legal systems, dependence on hierarchy and deference, hasty judgement, hypocrisy, insecurity. Think of the last days of Rhodesia. It’s hard to be under the jackboot. And there are always in betweens, enablers, shoneens, reservists etc.

 

[Carolina Red]

Ireland has yet to come to terms with its imperial past
Some celebrate and some excoriate connections with the British Empire

“...(on) April 13th, 1919, up to 1,500 Indian men, women and children were butchered at what is now known as the Amritsar Massacre at Jallianwala Bagh in the Punjab. When this was aired across Irish media as part of the commemoration of the massacre, people struggled to comprehend the bloody role played by the commanding officer that day, Colonel Reginald Dyer, educated in Middleton in Co Cork, and his superior, the lieutenant governor of the Punjab, Michael O’Dwyer, a Catholic from Co Tipperary. Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire, not active perpetrators of it...”

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampp...rms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146?mode=amp

Well that’s a spicy take

 

[Tincanalley]

Ireland has yet to come to terms with its imperial past
Some celebrate and some excoriate connections with the British Empire

“...(on) April 13th, 1919, up to 1,500 Indian men, women and children were butchered at what is now known as the Amritsar Massacre at Jallianwala Bagh in the Punjab. When this was aired across Irish media as part of the commemoration of the massacre, people struggled to comprehend the bloody role played by the commanding officer that day, Colonel Reginald Dyer, educated in Middleton in Co Cork, and his superior, the lieutenant governor of the Punjab, Michael O’Dwyer, a Catholic from Co Tipperary. Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire, not active perpetrators of it...”

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampp...rms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146?mode=amp

This lad was a horror story. The Irish were among the worst racists on plantations etc. Yes, Irish people played a role, not just in the enslavement of other groups, but in the enslavement and ethnic cleansing and religious oppression of Irish people in Ireland, too. But this thread is about the British Empire.

 

[Deery]

Probably members of the RIC.

 

[caid]

Ireland has yet to come to terms with its imperial past
Some celebrate and some excoriate connections with the British Empire

“...(on) April 13th, 1919, up to 1,500 Indian men, women and children were butchered at what is now known as the Amritsar Massacre at Jallianwala Bagh in the Punjab. When this was aired across Irish media as part of the commemoration of the massacre, people struggled to comprehend the bloody role played by the commanding officer that day, Colonel Reginald Dyer, educated in Middleton in Co Cork, and his superior, the lieutenant governor of the Punjab, Michael O’Dwyer, a Catholic from Co Tipperary. Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire, not active perpetrators of it...”

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampp...rms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146?mode=amp

Not very convincing.
Individual Irishmen taking part in British subjugation or any other form of horrifying behaviour is nothing new. Ireland as a state or as a wider population taking part in Empire is just inaccurate imo.

 

[Withnail]

Not very convincing.
Individual Irishmen taking part in British subjugation or any other form of horrifying behaviour is nothing new. Ireland as a state or as a wider population taking part in Empire is just inaccurate imo.

Note the phrase 'educated in middleton'.

The article neglects to mention that Dyer, who was responsible for the massacre, was born in India and spent at most 10 years in Ireland from the age of 11 attending boarding school and briefly studying medicine before moving to England to pursue a military career.

 

[Cal?]

Most people seem to be so negative about the Empire, I'm pretty sure Hong Kong would vote to return to being a colony if given a vote.

 

[Eboue]

 

[unchanged_lineup]

I'm working on a project at the moment related to the Irish famine and I've spent the last month deep in primary sources, journal papers, and books (mostly focusing on workhouses). I'd imagine the Whig government of the time, along with Trevelyan and Wood, would be called disaster capitalists today. All too happy to sweep the subhuman Irish from the soil.

 

[stevoc]

Most people seem to be so negative about the Empire, I'm pretty sure Hong Kong would vote to return to being a colony if given a vote.

Yeah but a colony of the modern day UK or a colony of the historical British Empire?

I doubt they'd enjoy the latter.

 

[spontaneus1]

Ireland has yet to come to terms with its imperial past
Some celebrate and some excoriate connections with the British Empire

“...(on) April 13th, 1919, up to 1,500 Indian men, women and children were butchered at what is now known as the Amritsar Massacre at Jallianwala Bagh in the Punjab. When this was aired across Irish media as part of the commemoration of the massacre, people struggled to comprehend the bloody role played by the commanding officer that day, Colonel Reginald Dyer, educated in Middleton in Co Cork, and his superior, the lieutenant governor of the Punjab, Michael O’Dwyer, a Catholic from Co Tipperary. Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire, not active perpetrators of it...”

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampp...rms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146?mode=amp

It's a bit rich to go around claiming the Irish where active and willing participants in the British Empire in 1919 don't you think?

 

[2cents]

It's a bit rich to go around claiming the Irish where active and willing participants in the British Empire in 1919 don't you think?

It’s a bit of a provocative article (and I deliberately quoted the most provocative passage), but the basic call for a broader understanding of the different roles that different Irish played at different times during the imperial period is welcome in my opinion.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah but a colony of the modern day UK or a colony of the historical British Empire?

I doubt they'd enjoy the latter.

Hong Kong was a colony of the British Empire for over 100 years, depends if you're talking about the earlier or latter parts of the 20th century.

 

[stevoc]

Hong Kong was a colony of the British Empire for over 100 years, depends if you're talking about the earlier or latter parts of the 20th century.

Well Britain didn’t have an empire from the mid 20th century onwards. So I’m talking about HK being a colony of the late 19th and early 20th century British empire. So as I said I doubt modern Hong Kong citizens would enjoy that.

 

[Cal?]

Well Britain didn’t have an empire from the mid 20th century onwards. So I’m talking about HK being a colony of the late 19th and early 20th century British empire. So as I said I doubt modern Hong Kong citizens would enjoy that.

Decolonization didn't really accelerate until after WWII and most people note the HK handover to PRC as the official end of the Empire.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

The British Empire was barbaric and the atrocities were terrible. What people need to use in their views of the British Empire is that they were not the only one that tried to conquer, they were just unfortunately the most successful at colonialism.

Most nations on Earth attempted to conquer if you go back far enough in history. The British Empire just did it on a much larger scale and were more victorious.

All colonialism was terrible, but if the British Empire didn’t exist, another Empire would have risen up, which would have left a similar outcome for present day.

 

[stevoc]

Decolonization didn't really accelerate until after WWII and most people note the HK handover to PRC as the official end of the Empire.

Well some people can consider the British empire to have continued until the mid 90’s if it makes them happy. But the empire was already crumbling before WW2 and by the 50/60’s it was done.

 

[Cal?]

Well some people can consider the British empire to have continued until the mid 90’s if it makes them happy. But the empire was already crumbling before WW2 and by the 50/60’s it was done.

That's my take too, basically it collapsed from 1945-1960.

Anyway, just saying that a majority of Hongkongers prefer the 80s/pre-97 to CCP rule.

 

[stevoc]

That's my take too, basically it collapsed from 1945-1960.

Anyway, just saying that a majority of Hongkongers prefer the 80s/pre-97 to CCP rule.

Can’t say I blame them Hong Kong had a fair amount of autonomy and a good standard of living under British control in the late 20th century. Compared to some other areas under British control anyway.

 

[2cents]

This Sathnam Sanghera documentary on Channel 4 right now is worth a watch.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Not very convincing.
Individual Irishmen taking part in British subjugation or any other form of horrifying behaviour is nothing new. Ireland as a state or as a wider population taking part in Empire is just inaccurate imo.

Yeah. The Irish were always separate. During the famine they used to receive help from the ottomans who’d bypass Queen Elizabeth

 

[Eyepopper]

Ireland has yet to come to terms with its imperial past
Some celebrate and some excoriate connections with the British Empire

“...(on) April 13th, 1919, up to 1,500 Indian men, women and children were butchered at what is now known as the Amritsar Massacre at Jallianwala Bagh in the Punjab. When this was aired across Irish media as part of the commemoration of the massacre, people struggled to comprehend the bloody role played by the commanding officer that day, Colonel Reginald Dyer, educated in Middleton in Co Cork, and his superior, the lieutenant governor of the Punjab, Michael O’Dwyer, a Catholic from Co Tipperary. Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire, not active perpetrators of it...”

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampp...rms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146?mode=amp

Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire

I'm guessing here, but was this written by someone educated on Anglo-Irish history in the British education system?

Is their next article "Black & Tans: How a modern viewpoint discounts mental illness an psychopathy in the early 20th century armed forces."

 

[2cents]

I'm guessing here, but was this written by someone educated on Anglo-Irish history in the British education system?

If only she had the benefit of a Christian Brothers education!

 

[2cents]

Good exchange here:

The British Empire and Race

https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/snapshotsofempire/2022/02/01/the-british-empire-and-race/

 

[KingCavani]

Ireland has yet to come to terms with its imperial past
Some celebrate and some excoriate connections with the British Empire

“...(on) April 13th, 1919, up to 1,500 Indian men, women and children were butchered at what is now known as the Amritsar Massacre at Jallianwala Bagh in the Punjab. When this was aired across Irish media as part of the commemoration of the massacre, people struggled to comprehend the bloody role played by the commanding officer that day, Colonel Reginald Dyer, educated in Middleton in Co Cork, and his superior, the lieutenant governor of the Punjab, Michael O’Dwyer, a Catholic from Co Tipperary. Stories like this challenge the master narrative of the Irish as victims of empire, not active perpetrators of it...”

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampp...rms-with-its-imperial-past-1.4444146?mode=amp

This is pretty much the equivalent of a black police officer in the US shooting an unarmed black man and saying that crime is a reflection of the black community.

What a disgusting piece.

 

[Cheimoon]

Good exchange here:

The British Empire and Race

https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/snapshotsofempire/2022/02/01/the-british-empire-and-race/

Why did you think it was good? I was myself a bit disappointed by Tombs's reply, which basically boils down to 'what about others, can we really pass moral judgement on the past, and why link the past to the present?' Especially his comment that Lester is being too political is rich given what Lester says in his rejoinder about Tombs's own work.

It's interesting intellectually how they basically immediately dive into a meta-discussion about how the subject can actually be discussed (mostly Tombs's doing; Lester appears disappointed in the rejoinder), and it's interesting to see what positions they take up - but I'm not sure I would call it a 'good' exchange.

 

[2cents]

Why did you think it was good? I was myself a bit disappointed by Tombs's reply, which basically boils down to 'what about others, can we really pass moral judgement on the past, and why link the past to the present?' Especially his comment that Lester is being too political is rich given what Lester says in his rejoinder about Tombs's own work.

It's interesting intellectually how they basically immediately dive into a meta-discussion about how the subject can actually be discussed (mostly Tombs's doing; Lester appears disappointed in the rejoinder), and it's interesting to see what positions they take up - but I'm not sure I would call it a 'good' exchange.

Sorry, I should have explained a bit - I think it’s a valuable exchange precisely for how it exposes Tombs’ position, especially given Tombs’ vaunted status in the upper echelons of British academia.

 

[2cents]

This is pretty much the equivalent of a black police officer in the US shooting an unarmed black man and saying that crime is a reflection of the black community.

What a disgusting piece.

I’m really struggling to understand how your analogy works.

 

[KingCavani]

I’m really struggling to understand how your analogy works.

Then that's your problem buddy.

 

[Cheimoon]

Sorry, I should have explained a bit - I think it’s a valuable exchange precisely for how it exposes Tombs’ position, especially given Tombs’ vaunted status in the upper echelons of British academia.

I have to admit I don't know either at all. What is Tombs's status exactly?

As an aside that's not really and aside: I was thinking the other day that people like Boris Johnson appear to support Brexit predominantly from a romantic point of view (i.e., not for any practical benefits) - both in its sense as a sort of synonym for misplaced nostalgia, and in the historical sense, as referring to 19th century nation states that could be defined in splendid isolation. The British Empire features into this as well of course, as evidence by Johnson happily quoting some colonialist poem when visiting a temple in Myanmar (if I'm not mistaking about the exact place and building). That only works if you view the British Empire in Tombs's way - as a geopolitical achievement whose morals are none of our concern now.

Then that's your problem buddy.

That's not very helpful. I think this is rather where you elaborate so we all understand better what you mean.

 

[KingCavani]

That's not very helpful. I think this is rather where you elaborate so we all understand better what you mean.

It's not very complicated.

It's generalising a group of people who have been unwillingly integrated into a system based on the actions of individuals within said system. It's ludicrous.

There were Irish people who collaborated with British imperialism. The idea that that is a reflection on Irish people or Irish sentiment at the time is laughable.

 

[Cheimoon]

It's not very complicated.

It's generalising a group of people who have been unwillingly integrated into a system based on the actions of individuals within said system. It's ludicrous.

There were Irish people who collaborated with British imperialism. The idea that that is a reflection on Irish people or Irish sentiment at the time is laughable.

Thanks - much better for the conversation! (Which I'll leave to others, I know far too little about Ireland to add anything meaningful here.)

 

[2cents]

It's generalising a group of people who have been unwillingly integrated into a system based on the actions of individuals within said system. It's ludicrous.

There were Irish people who collaborated with British imperialism. The idea that that is a reflection on Irish people or Irish sentiment at the time is laughable.

Nowhere does the article generalize in the sense you state. It makes no claims regarding general Irish sentiment.

I’ll quote from a recent roundtable on this topic which was held by a number of Irish historians of empire (including Ohlmeyer) following the article:

​

“It is crucial that historians clearly communicate in their public history that acknowledging the participation of Irish people of all classes, religious backgrounds and genders in different forms of colonialism outside of Ireland does not diminish experiences of colonialism on this island or its legacies for the diaspora. This means asking if and how Irish participation in overseas colonialism was driven by the colonial structures that shaped Irish society. Here, the goal is not to absolve or to implicate Ireland, Irish society or sub-groups within it in colonialism overseas but, rather, to explore the intersections and divergences that defined colonial rule on this island and in other parts of the world. It also means grappling with the role Irish people have played in propagating and maintaining white supremacy around the globe. The presence of significant numbers of Irish in military forces in other colonial spaces, British, French, Spanish, or American, has received significant attention as has the role of diaspora communities in the exclusion of indigenous and other communities of colour. The complex position of Irish missionaries in colonial and postcolonial societies across the globe merits further attention. Much more work needs to be done on how racial discourses developed and honed in these overseas contexts have shaped racist attitudes, policies and structures both historically and in contemporary Ireland.”​

 

[Sweet Square]

There is at times a awkward pause at time around certain Irish people if you bring up parts of Irish reactionary history like the Blue Shirt or the what was mentioned in the article @2cent posted. We basically view ourselves as the one of the ''good guys'', so anything that goes against this doesn't go down well.

Still after saying all of that

I’ll quote from a recent roundtable on this topic which was held by a number of Irish historians of empire (including Ohlmeyer) following the article:

​

It also means grappling with the role Irish people have played in propagating and maintaining white supremacy around the globe. The presence of significant numbers of Irish in military forces in other colonial spaces, British, French, Spanish, or American, has received significant attention as has the role of diaspora communities in the exclusion of indigenous and other communities of colour. The complex position of Irish missionaries in colonial and postcolonial societies across the globe merits further attention. Much more work needs to be done on how racial discourses developed and honed in these overseas contexts have shaped racist attitudes, policies and structures both historically and in contemporary Ireland.”​

Ohlmeyer is the author or editor of numerous articles and 13 books, including Volume 2 of The Cambridge History of Ireland, published in 2018.[43][44] The Cambridge History of Ireland was launched in Dublin by President Michael D. Higgins,[45] in London by former UK Prime Minister John Major[46] and in Washington DC by President-elect Joe Biden

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Ohlmeyer

 

[2cents]

We basically view ourselves as the one of the ''good guys'',

There’s that well-meaning but pretty awful poem by Imelda May, the title of which - You don’t get to be racist and Irish - can be seen plastered on certain walls around Dublin. It can be understood to imply that racism in Irish society is basically unfathomable due to our unique historical experience as victims of empire, and by extension implies that this experience was uniformly defining. Shows a real lack of awareness of/interest in the wide range of Irish experiences of empire, some of which may be fruitfully drawn upon to help explain incidents such as this the other day.

 

[LDUred]

The idea that there is 'nostalgia' from right wing Britons for the British Empire misses the point spectacularly.

Working class Britons who lived during the BE's heyday were massively screwed over by the Imperialists and saw barely any benefit from it. They were taxed for it, lied to about it, and they died for it needlessly.

For historians to level this idea that the average British person longs for those days is intellectual dishonesty and it totally erases British working class history.

Not to say that WC Brits are the big victims of all of this, just to say that it bothers me when historians ascribe feelings that are generalized and more straw man arguments than anything of substance. It glosses over real suffering.

 

[Carolina Red]

The idea that there is 'nostalgia' from right wing Britons for the British Empire misses the point spectacularly.

Working class Britons who lived during the BE's heyday were massively screwed over by the Imperialists and saw barely any benefit from it. They were taxed for it, lied to about it, and they died for it needlessly.

For historians to level this idea that the average British person longs for those days is intellectual dishonesty and it totally erases British working class history.

It did give us a great album by The Kinks, though.