The case for Zirkzee as #9

Walrus

Oppressed White Male
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
11,316
A lot of the current thinking is that Zirkzee should be one of our rotation options for the 2x10 positions in Amorim's 3-4-3, and we need to buy a clinical out and out striker to play up top. At Sporting, Amorim used that style of striker in Gyokeres, to great effect.

It is definitely beyond doubt that this season, we were let down by our finishing (amongst other things). Hojlund had a stinker of a season, Zirkzee had a poor start and then got injured just as he seemed to be finding his feet with some promising performances. I dont dispute that we should be in the market for another striker this summer and for me, Hojlund needs to be shown the door.

However I also think there could be some real potential to be tapped into, by using Zirkzee as our striker. This is predicated on the assumption that we are signing Cunha and another good goalscoring #10 such as Mbeumo to play alongside him. This leaves us with an attacking line up of;

Code: 
Amad ----- Bruno -------- ? ------ Dorgu
------------Mbeumo ---- Cunha
----------------- Zirkzee

I really think there is some good potential in the above, and it is unlocked by Zirkzee. Zirkzee is a weird player - he isnt a prolific goalscorer at all. He has the strength and holdup play of a target man, but the vision and technique of a false nine. In the above setup, this is ideal; Zirkzee is in a position to receive the ball and hold it up with any of 4 overlapping players (the 10s or WBs) to then play in on goal. Bruno in the deeper position is more than capable of picking out Zirkzee, and Zirkzee has the skillset to make the ball stick and release it effectively - he effectively becomes our pivot, in an advanced position, but also able to drop deep as required. Both Cunha and Mbeumo would thrive in that sort of system and would likely be our primary goal threats. Amad and Dorgu provide the width, stretching the defence to create gaps for the 10s and providing crosses. Bruno occupies the slightly deeper role and is able to spray passes out to any of 5 attacking options.

In my view, if we are signing players like Cunha and Mbeumo, the above makes a lot more sense than a traditional #9. As mentioned, I still think we should be in the market for a new striker anyway - and indeed if the plan is to use Zirkzee in that role, someone like Liam Delap who can rotate with him and offer a different option, is not a bad shout (whereas I have my doubts about Delap coming in as the pure first choice striker).
 
no no no

if Zirkzee is a 9, I'm bazalini with a warehouse full of kenwood juicers
 
You have different types of #9's obviously..

I think he could really work well in as a #9 in:
- a Firminho like role, mainly dropping deep to be involved in play with inside wingers who scores goals and midfielders who get into the box,
- a role as a second striker in a 442, where he is more the striker who drops deep with a goal scorer/target man upfront and wide wingers from midfield.

In the Amorim system it would really depend on the two #10's, whether he could work as the #9. Are they players who makes runs behind the defensive line and get in the box regularly, then yes.. It could potentially work.. Are they playmakers like Bruno, then no.. It wont work..
 
I'm of the camp if we can get a buyer to pay what we paid we sell him. I like the lads effort but ultimately I don't believe he's good enough in either the 10 role or the strikers role.

Let him go as I think he's one of the only one's will can recoup our fee on.
 
If he comes back much leaner, maybe. As it stands he literally would die trying to play the Firminho role.
 
We have let our strikers down with a lack
of service for years. Any of our strikers will look better with more penetration in the final third.

Zirkzee: good hold up play, good connector, can initiate counter attacks, good pressing. He can totally lead the line imo, Pool playing with Firminho is an example of playing successfully with a false 9.

I’m also not writing off Højlund, let’s see what he looks like with a functioning team around him. Inter and Juve interested in him should be a reminder that he is better than he looks in this team.

With Zirkzee we’d have more control, which is what is probably needed at this point. Amorim might prefer Højlund’s profile though.
 
I really dont see him as the out and out 9. believe there is a lot of revisionism with Joshua Zirkzee following his substitution vs Newcastle. Ok some nice touches etc but as a 9 in this system but he really needs to be able to press better than he does. I will concede however that recent reports suggest he arrived unfit. Given his style and technical ability, he should really be a rotation for Cuhna in the 10 not a rotation in the 9
 
I agree wholeheartedly but I don't think Amorim really "gets" Zirkzee. I had hope that he'd use him the way he used Paulinho at Sporting before Gyokeres rocked up, but that doesn't seem to be on the agenda going off some of his previous comments.

I think the most likely end is that Zirkzee knocks about for a bit and goes elsewhere. But hopefully with a couple of goalscoring tens added, he gets the chance to prove his coach wrong and shine playing as a creative centre forward dropping off to give them space. He has the ability; I've always been sure of that.
 
I think the idea is sound, it's whether Amorim wants that out of his CF which given the types we're apparently after might not be the case.
 
whatever that killer instinct that top number 9s have, he's got the opposite somehow

not for me, clive
 
It's probably the best use of Zirkzee.
However is he good enough to be building a team around and accommodating like this? I'm not sure he is.
 
I see some logic in making him the Firmino style number 9. He'd need to improve his fitness and execution (that would improve with better players around him to be fair). He doesn't need to be a great finisher there, Firmino was ridiculed for that all the time but it didn't really hurt his team.

It does mean we'd need the output of a Salah and Mane, which is hard. Cunha and Mbuemo isn't in the same class, obviously but have the qualities.

On the other hand, he just doesn't seem to be what Amorim wants in his number 9.
 
If you have Cunha and Mbeumo behind him then I do think it would work as they both run behind as almost second strikers. Just before his injury he seemed to lean out and was building up greater fitness.

It's not ideal as you do ideally want someone who can hold up and score goals but I haven't written him off yet. Despite being a very harsh critic earlier in the season.
 
in theory it’s the best way to get the most out of him as a striker. And given Delap who isn’t an established goal scorer himself is our main striker target, you’d hope Zirkzee is actually a decent false 9 with runners around him
 
Tarrou said:
whatever that killer instinct that top number 9s have, he's got the opposite somehow

not for me, clive
Click to expand...
Zero sum game, if the result you want is team goals and Zirkzee can be a foil for Cunha and Mbeumo and we managed to get both of them scoring at a good rate then I’d be all for it. 15-20 goals from Cunha, Mbuemo and Bruno and then 10 from Zirkzee and another 15-20 from the rest of the squad would be a huge huge improvement and that’s nothing outside the numbers anyone is capable of and yet it’s nearing on double we managed this season without adding a 9.
 
I think he could be a good 2nd option at 9 given how he progressed this season and his link up play is really good. Yeah, he still doesn't have the numbers to back it, but with goals being added to the 10s (Cunha and Mbuemo), he'd really flourish.
 
I am expecting a good season from Zirkzee next year, and he absolutely shouldn’t be sold. He’s a unique profile, but he has great ability, coupled with height and physical strength. I’s give it another year for sure to see what we can extract from him, as he strikes me as a player who has as much chance of being a complete revelation and one of the best players in the league as he does at being a dud. He’s a player where I think the conditions need to be absolutely perfect for him to succeed, but who knows - maybe even by accident, they just might be.
 
Pexbo said:
Zero sum game, if the result you want is team goals and Zirkzee can be a foil for Cunha and Mbeumo and we managed to get both of them scoring at a good rate then I’d be all for it. 15-20 goals from Cunha, Mbuemo and Bruno and then 10 from Zirkzee and another 15-20 from the rest of the squad would be a huge huge improvement and that’s nothing outside the numbers anyone is capable of and yet it’s nearing on double we managed this season without adding a 9.
Click to expand...
Has Zirkzee ever been close to an assist machine in his life?
 
Devil81 said:
I'm of the camp if we can get a buyer to pay what we paid we sell him. I like the lads effort but ultimately I don't believe he's good enough in either the 10 role or the strikers role.

Let him go as I think he's one of the only one's will can recoup our fee on.
Click to expand...
This is the most reasonable course of action and something we never do. Maybe that's why.

Sell him while we can still recoup our investment. Why have another player where you have to cling onto hope he will come good.
 
Id rather this than spend 50+ million on another bang average striker. If we cant get Gykorez, Osihmen level striker then lets fix the rest of the team and wait for an elite striker.
 
If a Italian club comes in with a suitable offer ( I know, I know) he should be off.
 
He can be a 9, I agree.

But his focus has to shift. I get the impression he thinks he's above basic goals. There are signs the penny is dropping with him and he's understanding what real football is about. Namely end product.

He at least could have a squad role as a 9 if he wants it enough.

I can't see him working as a 10. The physique and his level of cardio don't fit there.
 
He looked ok compared to the frontline we had last season just gone, but he’s not good enough for o be a starter
 
He could actually work very well with Cunha and Mbuemo, as others have eluded to.
 
Cassidy said:
Has Zirkzee ever been close to an assist machine in his life?
Click to expand...
Has he ever played this position with two productive attackers flanking him? Football is more than just pointing at the stats and saying “that’s the reality and it will always be like this”.

The OP makes a case based on Zirkzee’s qualities. He’s good at hold up play and link up play, he’s a big fella that can compete with EPL CBs and he’s also young and improving.

I’m also not suggesting he would be or would have to be an “assist machine”, you can be a key player in the buildup without being the one making the final pass, that usually comes from deeper. Firmino only managed an assist every 5 matches for Liverpool yet was fundamental to their attacking play.
 
Not against the idea of him competing with another CF - preferably someone like Delap (let's face it, we're not getting Gyokeres or the likes) who has a different skillset. I don't think he's terrible but I don't like Ziirkzee as a 10, so if he stays, then yeah, play him as a CF.

Deep down though, I'd sell if a suitable offer came in. Zirkzee just doesn't seem like he'll ever be a lethal enough CF, and ideally it's not a toss-up between 'technique', being 'clinical' or 'pace' but we can get someone who offers most characteristics of all 3, and then some.

In a very ideal world we could recoup what we paid for Zirkzee and use the cash to sign a more experienced forward (Wissa/Mateta) to compete with someone like Delap.

*I just mentioned those 2 as examples as I have no idea what their clubs would value them at
 
Pexbo said:
Has he ever played this position with two productive attackers flanking him? Football is more than just pointing at the stats and saying “that’s the reality and it will always be like this”.

The OP makes a case based on Zirkzee’s qualities. He’s good at hold up play and link up play, he’s a big fella that can compete with EPL CBs and he’s also young and improving.

I’m also not suggesting he would be or would have to be an “assist machine”, you can be a key player in the buildup without being the one making the final pass, that usually comes from deeper. Firmino only managed an assist every 5 matches for Liverpool yet was fundamental to their attacking play.
Click to expand...
He played as a false 9 at Bologna and scored more than he assisted he has Osorlnni who played as a forward who scored as many as he did.

He was good at progressing the ball with his dribbling and hold up but not really at finding final balls.

With the pace of the PL his ball carrying progression has largely been nullified a main reason he is likely no Firminho

I don’t see it with him, as a backup and for certain games sure. As our main central player in attack, no

As for being young and improving he is way off the level. An improvement could make him a decent backup sure but he will have to improve alot
 
He’s not a goal scorer. Why would you make a non goal scorer your 9 when you could use one who actually scores a lot.
 
By virtue of the financials involved he remains the more likely of our current two starting strikers to move this summer. Regardless of whether it is he or Rasmus that goes, presuming we don’t or can’t sell both, neither should be starting for us next season. Zirkzee has 3 league goals for us, a tap in on his debut and that brace in the 4-0 game against Everton in the game where it became painfully obvious that the Everton team had downed tools with Dyche. The pretty flicks and occasional bit of sexy link up play have bamboozled some but the harsh reality is that there has been almost zero end product.
 
I mean, I've seen people wanting Mateta for link-up play, so yeah, Zirkzee can do that, especially with better players (that we're looking to bring in) around him
 
We'd be better off selling Hojlund and Zirkzee and going with a combo of Delap and Jonathan David (on a free). That's £30m for two strikers which the sales of the previous two would easily cover.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.