The case for Zirkzee as #9

[Wing Attack Plan R]

We should write the season off and stop signing any more first team players if we can’t get a new no 9. That’s how grim the situation with our forward line is.

We need to have some standard. And by that standard, there should be no if about Zirkzee being our starting no 9, whether he’s slightly better than Hojlund or not. Head should roll if we fail this transfer window after all the time to plan and draw up a list of targets. Don’t tell me, we could only have Delap and Gyokeres in that list.

Totally agree. They botched the January window, so they've had at minimum 6 months to pull their fingers out.

 

[Kramer]

For me the answer is a definite no.

He is not a goal poacher.

He is not great in the air - will hardly score any headed goals

He doesn’t have great pace and acceleration and can’t run in behind and stretch defences.

For me, ideally a CF should have all 3 of those attributes. But to have none of them would yield poor results through the course of an entire season.

I think Oshimen will be good in Amorim’s system and the premier league. I think Gyokeres will also be okay. But will struggle more with the pace of the league.

 

[Insanity]

The case should be for Zirkzee to be used as a bait to one of the Italian clubs for a player we want from them.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Happy with him as second choice who provides something different. Chido being the 3rd choice.

 

[OnceRedAlwaysRed]

I get you're a new poster, but this isn't a case of bad publicity is still good publicity.

You've just mentioned that he was our worst attacker in the past 20 years, but still complained when he was proven to be far better than Hojlund. Which is it?

We all know he's not a out and out striker, but he has shown he can indeed dribble a ball a lot better than you make out. See Arsenal FA Cup round for a start. It's no surprised here that a lot started to write off the chance of the EL when he got injured.

I think you have a massive agenda to a player who has showed something worthwhile looking at. I think you need to be aiming your frustration at something else.

I have no idea what are you talking about. You just don't understand the context at all. I never said anything like he was better than Hojlund. MadDogg wrote it, i just quoted. Next time read carefully before you comment. And.... I'm a newbie on the forum, but not new to football. I'm 53, i watch football for over 40 years, have seen a lot of clubs live in their stadium all accross Europe from Real Madrid to Napoli, PSV, Feyenoord, Juventus, Arsenal, Man Utd and lots of smaller clubs too. I even played football for a bit before i decided to change to basketball. I support Man Utd since Ferguson arrived, and that wasn't yesterday.

 

[NLunited]

No striker can be successful in a team that plays as badly as we did this season.

To me, Zirkzee showed a lot of promise as a half nine or one of he two tens. He presses well and is a good outlet up top, unlike Højlund who we should loan out or sell.

We should get a good striker this window, even a loan if needed, to hit the ground running. Zirkzee is potential but not ready to be the main striker.

Cunha’s remarks so far are good to hear. We should not sign players unless they are excited to play for MU, and players who aren’t should be shepherded out the door. Rashford and Sancho should not darken the locker room door frames again.

Mbeumo sounds like another one that really wants to be here, so I hope we get him over the line as well. Both players replace Garnacho, so he can be sold.

Striker: Gyökeres doesn’t sound promising right now. I’d say, stop pursuing players that are shopping around and get ones like Cunha that dream of playing here. We need to build a hungry squad (Van Gaal would say ‘horny’).

I would not want to rely on Zirkzee and Højlund as our two only strikers next season. I think Rasmus could benefit from a loan and we need an experienced striker to come in if we are serious about competing for CL football next season.

INEOS saw something in Zirkzee. I think we have seen glimpses of it; they must have an idea of what his role is in this team.

 

[SungSam7]

I have no idea what are you talking about. You just don't understand the context at all. I never said anything like he was better than Hojlund. MadDogg wrote it, i just quoted. Next time read carefully before you comment. And.... I'm a newbie on the forum, but not new to football. I'm 53, i watch football for over 40 years, have seen a lot of clubs live in their stadium all accross Europe from Real Madrid to Napoli, PSV, Feyenoord, Juventus, Arsenal, Man Utd and lots of smaller clubs too. I even played football for a bit before i decided to change to basketball. I support Man Utd since Ferguson arrived, and that wasn't yesterday.

Alright Carlo Ancelotti, it's nice you've been around Europe. Congratulations but it still doesn't prove anything other than with all this "football knowledgeable" you are under no circumstances correct in your assessment of Zirkzee. You're trying to convince anyone who will listen that Zirkzee can't dribble but on numerous occasions the guy has taken 2 players out of a game due to his ability to dribble.

Even much so, he even got injured just after beating a couple of players by dribbling around them. He has shown he can also hold up the ball and play passes from deep, one off the top of my head was the ball to Garnacho who went on to score if I remember in the EL.

Compare the worst striker to play for United in 20 years to say Hojlund, who by the way (just to add more stats to your wild belief) has a worse goal per minute ratio to Zirkzee. A player who offers nothing but his ability to land on his arse any time he has the ball.

If you can grasp all that, i can go on, it shows that your thoughts on zirkzee is just absolutely rubbish and you'd need to get a move on travelling around Europe, Ryanair flights aren't going to be cheap forever.

 

[RedRover]

I don't think he's good enough for the PL, but he may be useful if he's got Cunha and Mbuemo behind him who should score goals if he can bring them in to play.

I wonder why the club nought him because he's an odd player - built like target man but wants to play like a 10.

 

[JohnyBuckets]

I think he is a good second option to have with cunha and mbuemo as the 10 behind. Hopefully we can get osimhen or gyokers, sell hojlund and have 3 options of... osimhen, zirkzee and Chido

 

[Gandalf]

I don't think he's good enough for the PL, but he may be useful if he's got Cunha and Mbuemo behind him who should score goals if he can bring them in to play.

I wonder why the club nought him because he's an odd player - built like target man but wants to play like a 10.

Value in the market, he was quite cheap based on his prior season in Serie A and looked to be ascending. Mostly though I suspect it was the FA Cup Final performance where we outplayed City with a false 9. If ETH planned to go with something similar for the next season then Zirkzee makes sense as he would be a good fit for that role but of course he showed up overweight and out of condition and by the time he began to turn things around Erik was gone and we had transitioned to the current system which really has no use for a player of his skillset other than as a bench option for the number 10 role.

 

[RuudTom83]

You can't just give up on every single member of the squad...at some point you have to look at the coach and ask can he improve a few and work with a few who might not be the perfect fit.

Otherwise why even bother having a manager.

A front 3 of Cunha-Zirkzee-Mbeumo does have potential, especially if you spend the £50M-£60M in midfield instead of on a CF.

 

[caid]

You can't just give up on every single member of the squad...at some point you have to look at the coach and ask can he improve a few and work with a few who might not be the perfect fit.

Otherwise why even bother having a manager.

A front 3 of Cunha-Zirkzee-Mbeumo does have potential, especially if you spend the £50M-£60M in midfield instead of on a CF.

Theres a difference between making do for a season and thinking its a feasible medium or long term plan. Zirkzee might improve drastically going forward, back in the here and now he scored 3 goals last season, it'd need to be some crazy improvement for him to make it as a first team player.
I think looking at Hojlund and how throwing an inadequate player into the role it just seems a blatantly stupid idea. As a plan B - great, that has some realistic prospect of actually working. As a plan A, B, C and D with no alternative striker it'll end badly.

 

[RedC]

We will do nothing with him as a 9, we desperately need someone that knows when to be in the 6 yard box, it will be another year of seeing good crosses and cutbacks go to nobody if he's the focal point of our attack.

 

[El Jefe]

I think it's pretty clear he's not a No.9, he doesn't play like someone who wants to be in the box. The argument is that with Cunha and hopefully Mbuemo they can pick up the scoring but without penalties I think they are good for 10-14 goals each in the league. That's good but still unlikely to be enough. Firmino worked because Mane and Salah combined always scored 30 goals and often scored over 40. I also seriously doubt Zirkzee will score as often as Firmino.

Zirkzee needs to be deeper but I'm not sure there's a role for him in our rigid system.

 

[RuudTom83]

Theres a difference between making do for a season and thinking its a feasible medium or long term plan. Zirkzee might improve drastically going forward, back in the here and now he scored 3 goals last season, it'd need to be some crazy improvement for him to make it as a first team player.
I think looking at Hojlund and how throwing an inadequate player into the role it just seems a blatantly stupid idea. As a plan B - great, that has some realistic prospect of actually working. As a plan A, B, C and D with no alternative striker it'll end badly.

True, if United can't afford or identify the CF they want this summer then invest the money else where and continue the search for a CF in the background.

 

[Demon Barber]

Some of the criticism of Zirkzee here is absolutely laughable. Theyre mostly newbies

What's more worrying is none "newbies" thinking that he is good enough. He isn't.

I have nothing against the lad, but to suggest that having better players around him will transform him into a #9 seems delusional.

 

[VP89]

What's more worrying is none "newbies" thinking that he is good enough. He isn't.

I have nothing against the lad, but to suggest that having better players around him will transform him into a #9 seems delusional.

He is good enough. He has plenty of skillsets where he can thrive, and the argument for the 9 is that his faux 9 position suits Mbeumo and Cunha when they make runs behind.

He has a place in this squad, it's crazy people just assume he doesn't after one season of bedding in. He's shown plenty after a very turbulent season in management and changes.

 

[Demon Barber]

He is good enough. He has plenty of skillsets where he can thrive, and the argument for the 9 is that his faux 9 position suits Mbeumo and Cunha when they make runs behind.

He has a place in this squad, it's crazy people just assume he doesn't after one season of bedding in. He's shown plenty after a very turbulent season in management and changes.

I don't disagree that he has a place in the squad. I just don't see him as a 9, and thought the jibe about newbies was uncalled for.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

He just can't hit the ball cleanly. His penalty against Fulham was terrible.

 

[caid]

True, if United can't afford or identify the CF they want this summer then invest the money else where and continue the search for a CF in the background.

Nope. Its not hard to get an improvement on Hojlund or Zirkzee and we absolutely cant go into the season with them as the one and only option. We've basically burned through Hojlund and he's a liability at this point, how long do you think Zirkzee lasts as our only option?
You give Zirkzee one more season to see if he might be a worthwhile squad option, you dont make him the one and only striker in your squad.

 

[Gandalf]

He is good enough. He has plenty of skillsets where he can thrive, and the argument for the 9 is that his faux 9 position suits Mbeumo and Cunha when they make runs behind.

He has a place in this squad, it's crazy people just assume he doesn't after one season of bedding in. He's shown plenty after a very turbulent season in management and changes.

He objectively has not. You can believe he might improve but you cannot ignore a return of 3 goals scored in just 2 league games with his last goal coming all the way back on December 1st. He shows bits of technique but there is no end product to speak of, there are you tubers who can do amazing tricks and skills moves but they are not PL strikers and neither is Zirkzee. He could maybe make it as a 10 although he is lacking the pace and physicality Amorim wants but with Cunha and potentially Mbuemo that is a non starter.

 

[VP89]

He objectively has not. You can believe he might improve but you cannot ignore a return of 3 goals scored in just 2 league games with his last goal coming all the way back on December 1st. He shows bits of technique but there is no end product to speak of, there are you tubers who can do amazing tricks and skills moves but they are not PL strikers and neither is Zirkzee. He could maybe make it as a 10 although he is lacking the pace and physicality Amorim wants but with Cunha and potentially Mbuemo that is a non starter.

I think pointing blindly just to goals and assists is the problem here.

He's a player that will clearly operate well with good players around him and tends to be exposed when that's not the case. He's a luxury player in that sense but he definitely has a place with better quality attackers in the mix to help bring out the best of his own qualities.

 

[RuudTom83]

Nope. Its not hard to get an improvement on Hojlund or Zirkzee and we absolutely cant go into the season with them as the one and only option. We've basically burned through Hojlund and he's a liability at this point, how long do you think Zirkzee lasts as our only option?
You give Zirkzee one more season to see if he might be a worthwhile squad option, you dont make him the one and only striker in your squad.

Very interesting to see how the team looks on the eye test after Cunha and (hopefully) Mbeumo arrives for the hefty sum of over £120M. Who knows what effect that will have on Zirkzee, Hojlund, Obi, Amad and Bruno.

Sometimes you have to play with the toys you already have @caid you can't just throw them out every 12 months I'm afraid.

 

[Gandalf]

I think pointing blindly just to goals and assists is the problem here.

He's a player that will clearly operate well with good players around him and tends to be exposed when that's not the case. He's a luxury player in that sense but he definitely has a place with better quality attackers in the mix to help bring out the best of his own qualities.

I do see where you are coming from but I cannot see it in this system. I am specifically pointing to the thread title of him as a number 9 which I just don't see and with Cunha and Mbuemo that would be what we need, a striker who stays in the box and pushes the defence back to create space for the 10's. Zirkzee is a bit like Beardsley, he would be good as a support striker to a poacher but that would involve us changing systems which I think we can agree is not going to happen under Amorim.

 

[caid]

Very interesting to see how the team looks on the eye test after Cunha and (hopefully) Mbeumo arrives for the hefty sum of over £120M. Who knows what effect that will have on Zirkzee, Hojlund, Obi, Amad and Bruno.

Sometimes you have to play with the toys you already have @caid you can't just throw them out every 12 months I'm afraid.

I dont think its a sensible use of 120m if it means relying on Hojlund and Zirkzee. If im stuck with the toys i already have then i'd rather rely on bruno and amad than hojlund and zirkzee. Hell i'd rather gamble on zirkzee as a 10 than a 9.
9 is the weakest position in our team and i dont think its even particularly close.
Obi is 17 and the kind of silly, fairytale plan we gamble on every season. You dont plan for 17 year olds to be making significant contributions to a team, it'll happen once in a or twice a generation but you dont plan or have expectations of it happening.

 

[Walrus]

I think pointing blindly just to goals and assists is the problem here.

He's a player that will clearly operate well with good players around him and tends to be exposed when that's not the case. He's a luxury player in that sense but he definitely has a place with better quality attackers in the mix to help bring out the best of his own qualities.

I made this point a few times when comparing with Garnacho. It’s easy to be a selfish player in a dysfunctional team - you can still take players on, hit high risk passes or shoot from distance. It pays off one time in ten and you are called a ‘genius’.

Zirkzee is the opposite. He thrives on intricate passing, one-twos, intelligent movement etc. In short, he needs to be on the same wavelength as his teammates whereas for someone like Garnacho it doesn’t really matter - he will still try to do his thing regardless of who else is on the pitch.

The fact we are trying to get rid of Garnacho, as well as Rashford, Antony etc is pleasing for me because - performances aside - this hopefully shows a move away from these ‘selfish’ players and towards ones that work as a team. System players.

I don’t think Zirkzee will ever be a prolific goalscorer and there is a good chance he will never be good enough to be a first choice striker for a CL level club. However the inability of fans to look past “3 league goals” is pretty sad. If someone does nothing but shoot from 30 yards and ends the season with 5 goals, does that make them a better player?

 

[USREDEVIL]

Second choice maybe. He seems to me like a better version Donny VDB.

 

[caid]

I made this point a few times when comparing with Garnacho. It’s easy to be a selfish player in a dysfunctional team - you can still take players on, hit high risk passes or shoot from distance. It pays off one time in ten and you are called a ‘genius’.

Zirkzee is the opposite. He thrives on intricate passing, one-twos, intelligent movement etc. In short, he needs to be on the same wavelength as his teammates whereas for someone like Garnacho it doesn’t really matter - he will still try to do his thing regardless of who else is on the pitch.

The fact we are trying to get rid of Garnacho, as well as Rashford, Antony etc is pleasing for me because - performances aside - this hopefully shows a move away from these ‘selfish’ players and towards ones that work as a team. System players.

I don’t think Zirkzee will ever be a prolific goalscorer and there is a good chance he will never be good enough to be a first choice striker for a CL level club. However the inability of fans to look past “3 league goals” is pretty sad. If someone does nothing but shoot from 30 yards and ends the season with 5 goals, does that make them a better player?

Theres a balance to be fair. If he was scoring 10 or 15 league goals then its a lot easier to look past the numbers and see a lot of value elsewhere.
I think that 10 or 15 league goals isn't beyond him and is possibly pretty realistic if were looking past the next year or two. I just think were in a precarious enough position that the next year or two are really, really important.
Not to mention that developing into that player would be a hell of a lot easier as a member of the squad who comes in and out as his form and energy levels fluctuate rather than as a de facto starter every match. That feels like throwing him to the sharks and seeing if he sinks or swims.
I dont even want a world class, elite level forward. Delap would have been fine, even someone like David just to have a couple of options. I can get on board with that kind of plan and spending money elsewhere. Its Zirkzee as basically our only forward before were putting Mainoo and Bruno up front that i think would be an outrageously stupid plan.

 

[cpresc]

Temu Berbatov.

Waste of time and space

 

[bgoodall]

I don’t see how Zirkzee will just somehow get better because he gets to play with Mbeumo and Cunha. Using that same logic Cunha and Mbeumo may turn to crap because they have to play with Zirkzee.

 

[RuudTom83]

I dont think its a sensible use of 120m if it means relying on Hojlund and Zirkzee. If im stuck with the toys i already have then i'd rather rely on bruno and amad than hojlund and zirkzee. Hell i'd rather gamble on zirkzee as a 10 than a 9.
9 is the weakest position in our team and i dont think its even particularly close.
Obi is 17 and the kind of silly, fairytale plan we gamble on every season. You dont plan for 17 year olds to be making significant contributions to a team, it'll happen once in a or twice a generation but you dont plan or have expectations of it happening.

It’s a good point to raise, I never expected United to go for 2 no.10’s this summer.

The downside of that could be we are relying on Zirkzee a little more than a lot fans would like.

But there is plenty of noise around a new CF so this thread becomes a moot point if one arrives.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Not kidding that Maguire has more of a case for being our #9 than Zirkzee. Scores headers, nutmegs sucker MCs who try and aspire instead of calling him “sire”.

It’s like you’re having a dinner party and you need 11 chairs but you’ve only got 10 and a pizza box. Zirkzee is the pizza box you can sit on in a pinch.

 

[SecondFig]

I'm not sure he's good enough to be a regular starter - same as Hojlund - but I think he's got enough to be in the squad and rotating in and out. I don't like the speed that some players are written off with - it can take players time to adjust to new leagues, new countries, and just new teams/managers. Half the sub is desperate for us to sign Gyokeres who failed to make an impact at Brighton or St Pauli when 20-22. He then did decently in the Championship with Coventry before finally exploding at Sporting in his mid-20s. Both Hojlund and Zirkzee have plenty of time to show their quality - Zirkzee was in the Serie A team of the year before we destroyed his confidence.

 

[OnceRedAlwaysRed]

Alright Carlo Ancelotti, it's nice you've been around Europe. Congratulations but it still doesn't prove anything other than with all this "football knowledgeable" you are under no circumstances correct in your assessment of Zirkzee. You're trying to convince anyone who will listen that Zirkzee can't dribble but on numerous occasions the guy has taken 2 players out of a game due to his ability to dribble.

Even much so, he even got injured just after beating a couple of players by dribbling around them. He has shown he can also hold up the ball and play passes from deep, one off the top of my head was the ball to Garnacho who went on to score if I remember in the EL.

Compare the worst striker to play for United in 20 years to say Hojlund, who by the way (just to add more stats to your wild belief) has a worse goal per minute ratio to Zirkzee. A player who offers nothing but his ability to land on his arse any time he has the ball.

If you can grasp all that, i can go on, it shows that your thoughts on zirkzee is just absolutely rubbish and you'd need to get a move on travelling around Europe, Ryanair flights aren't going to be cheap forever.

Sorry i didn't waste time to read your gibberish. I noticed in time that it's not worth to argue with an 8 years old.

 

[RedRover]

Value in the market, he was quite cheap based on his prior season in Serie A and looked to be ascending. Mostly though I suspect it was the FA Cup Final performance where we outplayed City with a false 9. If ETH planned to go with something similar for the next season then Zirkzee makes sense as he would be a good fit for that role but of course he showed up overweight and out of condition and by the time he began to turn things around Erik was gone and we had transitioned to the current system which really has no use for a player of his skillset other than as a bench option for the number 10 role.

Looks ill suited to the PL though, and seemingly, in ETH's system. Strange one for me - not the out and out goal scorer we needed. Perhaps his versatility was attractive.

 

[Ted Lasso]

There is no case.

Zirkzee can't play the position in the way Amorim wants for his system. He doesn't have the attributes or ability. Amorim isn't going to change his system for Zirkzee. Close shut conversation.

 

[appleman]

What's more worrying is none "newbies" thinking that he is good enough. He isn't.

I have nothing against the lad, but to suggest that having better players around him will transform him into a #9 seems delusional.

That's the thing, he still looks at least potentially good enough, and plenty of games already you could take the "potentially" out of that sentence. Add to that this being his first season at a disfunctional club in a disfunctional team where no one was good enough, and it would be rather odd to single his underperforming out. Even Hojlund looked much better just the season before.

But it is delusional to think he would transform into a #9 by simply adding better players. Because the odds wouldn't be great to see him transform his whole approach. But that isn't the suggestion at all (outside of the few claiming it's all due to the lack of delivery by the rest of the team).

The idea is rather simple, he showed enough to suggest it's worth it to at least try to see how he matches up with two different partners up front. And since those look to be Cunha and Mbeumo (at least one of them is confirmed), the idea for many people is that the more direct/offensive players in the 10 positions change the responsibilities of the 9 position. They don't change their skillset, but they offer (or even request/require) a different match than i.e. Mainoo and Mount ask from you if they are the 10s.

They may make Hojlund look like a more solid #9 by taking some of the heat and being a bit more of a lightning rod for his markers, besides hopefully improving the delivery for whoever plays up front.

But Zirkzee, whatever you think of him, could be asked to stay up front a bit more, but not only will he not suddenly turn into a #9, it's probably a bad idea to ask him to throw away most of his assets. But it's also too simple to look at him, and then see his skills look to be something along the lines of ball control, dribble, build up/hold up and then stamp the guy a midfielder.

I do think that, if possible to do otherwise, it is not a smart move to put all your eggs into this what if scenario. We don't know how Cunha (and Mbeumo) will do, how this summer and more adaptation will aid Zirkzee's inclusion in general, and whether a false 9 or a direct poacher finisher 9 is the best companion to a successful new set of 10s. Especially since Amorim looks to prefer direct 9s like Gyokores and Hojlund, but the later games may suggest a warming up to Zirkzee up front.

I still believe in Zirkzee as a striker, but a Zirkzee type striker, not to transform him to a #9. If it looks like Amorim will only want him to be a real 10 or a real 9 (whatever that means), I hope everyone around him advices Zirkzee to find another team and manager. But Cunha and Mbeumo aren't exactly copies of the Sporting 10s, so I do feel like the current idea is to add a center midfielder next and maybe not a striker that will have to start for months before the plan is allowed to be deemed a failure.

I hope to see that front three of Cunha-Zirkzee-Mbeumo as theoretically they complement each other very well. But United has done a great job the past 12 years to show us that theory sucks and no player is reliable here.

 

[NLunited]

That's the thing, he still looks at least potentially good enough, and plenty of games already you could take the "potentially" out of that sentence. Add to that this being his first season at a disfunctional club in a disfunctional team where no one was good enough, and it would be rather odd to single his underperforming out. Even Hojlund looked much better just the season before.

But it is delusional to think he would transform into a #9 by simply adding better players. Because the odds wouldn't be great to see him transform his whole approach. But that isn't the suggestion at all (outside of the few claiming it's all due to the lack of delivery by the rest of the team).

The idea is rather simple, he showed enough to suggest it's worth it to at least try to see how he matches up with two different partners up front. And since those look to be Cunha and Mbeumo (at least one of them is confirmed), the idea for many people is that the more direct/offensive players in the 10 positions change the responsibilities of the 9 position. They don't change their skillset, but they offer (or even request/require) a different match than i.e. Mainoo and Mount ask from you if they are the 10s.

They may make Hojlund look like a more solid #9 by taking some of the heat and being a bit more of a lightning rod for his markers, besides hopefully improving the delivery for whoever plays up front.

But Zirkzee, whatever you think of him, could be asked to stay up front a bit more, but not only will he not suddenly turn into a #9, it's probably a bad idea to ask him to throw away most of his assets. But it's also too simple to look at him, and then see his skills look to be something along the lines of ball control, dribble, build up/hold up and then stamp the guy a midfielder.

I do think that, if possible to do otherwise, it is not a smart move to put all your eggs into this what if scenario. We don't know how Cunha (and Mbeumo) will do, how this summer and more adaptation will aid Zirkzee's inclusion in general, and whether a false 9 or a direct poacher finisher 9 is the best companion to a successful new set of 10s. Especially since Amorim looks to prefer direct 9s like Gyokores and Hojlund, but the later games may suggest a warming up to Zirkzee up front.

I still believe in Zirkzee as a striker, but a Zirkzee type striker, not to transform him to a #9. If it looks like Amorim will only want him to be a real 10 or a real 9 (whatever that means), I hope everyone around him advices Zirkzee to find another team and manager. But Cunha and Mbeumo aren't exactly copies of the Sporting 10s, so I do feel like the current idea is to add a center midfielder next and maybe not a striker that will have to start for months before the plan is allowed to be deemed a failure.

I hope to see that front three of Cunha-Zirkzee-Mbeumo as theoretically they complement each other very well. But United has done a great job the past 12 years to show us that theory sucks and no player is reliable here.

The argument that it won’t work because we have tried stuff like that doesn’t fly: it works at other teams. Nothing works here at the moment.

We have to use the players we have and that might mean playing with a false nine more often.

We have to improve everywhere and buying players with Cunha’s mentality and qualities is a great sign that things might start improving.

 

[appleman]

The argument that it won’t work because we have tried stuff like that doesn’t fly: it works at other teams. Nothing works here at the moment.

We have to use the players we have and that might mean playing with a false nine more often.

We have to improve everywhere and buying players with Cunha’s mentality and qualities is a great sign that things might start improving.

I'm not sure at which part you are responding, but I agree, I think? Now it's all conceptualizing, like your nuance of "might" at the end.

Conceptually I think Cunha and Mbeumo would work better with a striker like Zirkzee than another type, but until we see it (extensively), that theory doesn't have more merit than people saying we just need a tall fast strong finisher. And I get it, we haven't shown a lot of goals in a long time, so with either young or weird strikers in the squad it sounds like a proven old school striker is a way to go back to basics, besides the fact that a pure striker always does kind of work to some degree.

Spoiler: rambling

Like at Atleti, I could think Suarez and Villa or whoever were overrated as much as I want, but their numbers showed a higher tally and finishing percentage than i.e. Correa. Perhaps my judgment that a lack of extended chances halts any developing (at the time) player's development was fair, but it was also fair as a top club to choose the established striker that may disappear and detach from the games, but does show at least better numbers. Recently I saw Griezmann's stats from several years ago when I thought he was overrated, but his finishing rate (either G-xG or goals/shots or something) was amazing to the degree that I understood a little better what Simeone meant by that "something special" when describing his strikers. Especially with the even more core-Simeone-ball of the time, it wouldn't make sense to take out a player like him if he gets you the 20 "1-0" victories vs 10 "0-0" draws, that would have been 10 "1-0" vs 20 "0-0"s, so to speak. Then a club top scorer with 20-22 goals vs the 25+ fellas at Real and Barca suddenly looks very good. I do still prefer the play he showed as a 10 for a while after moving there, though, I think particularly the two seasons post-WC22.

And it is unclear whether the Griezmann (or Suarez, etc) focus blocked the overall play from improving, especially with all these stats expanding every few years, and thus overall goals from improving, which is harder to prove statistically, I think? Let's say we get Gyokores and he scores 15 goals and statistically Zirkzee would score 5. In direct comparison you can't argue against Gyokores there. But if next to Gyokores Cunha and Mbeumo score 8 goals each, which would have been 15 next to Zirkzee, suddenly you're talking a front line of 31 goals vs one of 35 in Zirkzee's favor. The problem is mostly that you cannot try both options at the same time. So hopefully they analyze whatever they're doing very well, how those players link to others, both now for the scouts and transfer people, and later on the training pitches and in game, and then hope the interpretation end up in their favor. Sometimes my perfect concepts (in my head) are absolutely horrible in practice in even video games. Let alone real life (though I guess real people are more dynamic and variable than video game stats and profile sets).

I digress.

I do love a thread like this, though, or conceptualizing in general. It's like a very particular puzzle where the pieces keep changing shape as you play. But as a fan of his playing style/profile, I just hope Zirkzee's piece fits better this coming season. And looking at the pieces' current shapes and the estimation of what the next one could be, it looks like it's worth to try clicking those things together.

 

[NewGlory]

It's OK, guys. Teams have survived without a strong #9. Not necessarily won anything, but - survived, for sure. If Cunha and Mbeumo come through and Amorim puts a decent team together, considering we are not in Europe, with Zirkzee (not a #9), and some cameos by Chido Obi, we can make top 8 next season, even if Hojlund leaves or continues to suck, which – after finishing 15th is an improvement, right? Right? RIGHT?

Let's just pray Mbeumo happens, at least.