The centre-forward market...

devilish

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No! I agree on signing Moukoko but giving free agents large signing on fees is asking for trouble. If I was a player in the process of renewing my deal (Rashford, Shaw, Dalot, possibly Garnacho) I would be asking for a 20m signing on fee if my club was giving that to new player. It sets a precedent.
TBF Moukoko would be a free agent for us thus a big signing on fee is justified in this case. What I don't want to see is a situation similar to what Juventus has with lets say Rabiot (who was a free agent for them) whom they wanted out but they couldn't simply because he was demanding that he'll keep the huge salary he had at Juve.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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The problem is that there aren't any Shearer/RVN/Batistuta strikers out there who would justify us spending silly money on them either.
You mentioned Vlahovic in your previous post that I replied. What do you think of Vlahovic talent/potential?
 

devilish

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You mentioned Vlahovic in your previous post that I replied. What do you think of Vlahovic talent/potential?
Vlahovic had suffered from a number of injuries lately but the talent is there. However I believe that we need to be thread carefully here. Scamacca for example was scoring a huge amount of goals in the Serie A last season and yet he hasn't yet mirrored that performance in the EPL just yet. Immobile is a goal machine yet he failed to make an impact with Dortmund

As shown by Maguire and AWB the EPL proven thing provide little guarantees as well. The football style being played with the top 6 clubs is different to that played with the rest. The latter tend to prefer soaking pressure in their own half and hit teams on the break while the top dogs are being forced to hammer themselves in 6-7 men defences. That means that a Toney or a Mitrovic who are great at the lower end of the EPL table might struggle with us.

Considering our limited budget and the absence of dead certs out there to invest upon then I believe that we should aim for players who wouldn't cost a bomb and who has the characteristics to succeed with us. I am referring to the likes of Moukoko, Thuram and Gapko (who is a LW but who has the right characteristics to switch up front)
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Vlahovic had suffered from a number of injuries lately but the talent is there. However I believe that we need to be thread carefully here. Scamacca for example was scoring a huge amount of goals in the Serie A last season and yet he hasn't yet mirrored that performance in the EPL just yet. Immobile is a goal machine yet he failed to make an impact with Dortmund

As shown by Maguire and AWB the EPL proven thing provide little guarantees as well. The football style being played with the top 6 clubs is different to that played with the rest. The latter tend to prefer soaking pressure in their own half and hit teams on the break while the top dogs are being forced to hammer themselves in 6-7 men defences. That means that a Toney or a Mitrovic who are great at the lower end of the EPL table might struggle with us.

Considering our limited budget and the absence of dead certs out there to invest upon then I believe that we should aim for players who wouldn't cost a bomb and who has the characteristics to succeed with us. I am referring to the likes of Moukoko, Thuram and Gapko (who is a LW but who has the right characteristics to switch up front)
If we compare Vlahovic and Scamacca, Vlahovic has much better goalscoring stats than Scamacca. So I'm not sure why you are using Scamacca in my question regarding Vlahovic. Are you seeing Vlahovic and Scamacca have the same talent/potential? Are you also seeing Vlahovic in the same potential and talent as Immobile? May be you don't understand my question and I will rephrase it, How high do you think the ceiling of Vlahovic?
 

Longlivekeano

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The problem is that there aren't any Shearer/RVN/Batistuta strikers out there who would justify us spending silly money on them either.
actually I don’t want shearer/batistuta/rvn types. These poachers always win the league top scorer awards BUT their teams hardly ever win the league. I prefer a fluid front 3 where each forward chip in with 20/25 goals a season like Tevez/Ronaldo/Rooney or the awesome pairs of Yorkey-cole/teddy-ole that almost always scored about 15-20 each year
 

devilish

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actually I don’t want shearer/batistuta/rvn types. These poachers always win the league top scorer awards BUT their teams hardly ever win the league. I prefer a fluid front 3 where each forward chip in with 20/25 goals a season like Tevez/Ronaldo/Rooney or the awesome pairs of Yorkey-cole/teddy-ole that almost always scored about 15-20 each year
Ruud won 5 leagues, 3 of whom in serious leagues. Shearer won the league with Blackburn Rovers. He then signed with Newcastle who had as much of a chance of winning the league as West Ham while Batistuta spent most of his career with Fiorentina (again a West Ham standard club) and went on winning the league with Roma (Spurs standard club). So your criticism around them is quite unfair especially since the latter two were far more hardworking then Ronaldo were.

My point is that there are no dead certs up front that deserve investing 100m upon.
 

devilish

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If we compare Vlahovic and Scamacca, Vlahovic has much better goalscoring stats than Scamacca. So I'm not sure why you are using Scamacca in my question regarding Vlahovic. Are you seeing Vlahovic and Scamacca have the same talent/potential? Are you also seeing Vlahovic in the same potential and talent as Immobile? May be you don't understand my question and I will rephrase it, How high do you think the ceiling of Vlahovic?
What I am saying is that the EPL is at a far higher level then the Serie A and a proven scorer in the latter league won't necessarily guarantee you goals in the former. I am old enough to remember when the opposite was the case. The likes of Ian Rush would tank badly in the Serie A while players like Bergkamp who tanked at Inter would become an EPL legend. We need to be careful about that gap especially since Napoli/Juventus would take more then their fair pound of flesh.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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What I am saying is that the EPL is at a far higher level then the Serie A and a proven scorer in the latter league won't necessarily guarantee you goals in the former. I am old enough to remember when the opposite was the case. The likes of Ian Rush would tank badly in the Serie A while players like Bergkamp who tanked at Inter would become an EPL legend. We need to be careful about that gap especially since Napoli/Juventus would take more then their fair pound of flesh.
This Serie A argument is just total non-sense especially after people created an argument about Eredivisie last summer and we spent huge on Lisandro Martinez and Antony.

If the player is talented enough or have a ceiling to be world class striker and suit enough for the manager's system then coming from Serie A will not make any difference as long as the manager knows what to do with the player. You are using players who are nowhere near Vlahovic's ceiling and potential as example. I guess it depends on how you see Vlahovic's talent and ceiling, hence why I asked you the question and feel free to let me know your answer.
 

Il_Cecchino

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Vlahovic has a great, great shoot. And the physique. And he scores.
But he has average technique. He only uses his left foot. And especially he is slow: he has not acceleration. In premier this is a big handicap. He is a good player, but overatted. Not better than Mitrovic.
 

Borussia Teeth

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TBF Moukoko would be a free agent for us thus a big signing on fee is justified in this case. What I don't want to see is a situation similar to what Juventus has with lets say Rabiot (who was a free agent for them) whom they wanted out but they couldn't simply because he was demanding that he'll keep the huge salary he had at Juve.
I get what you're saying but I'll stick to my point about giving free agents signing on fees will encourage signing on fees to be negotiated into contract renewals.
 

stefan92

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I get what you're saying but I'll stick to my point about giving free agents signing on fees will encourage signing on fees to be negotiated into contract renewals.
So what? Paying a big signing on fee but a reasonable wage makes sense for all parties involved. The player gets his money and it's easier for the club to sell if they want to get rid of him.

Players get their money, one way or the other
 

devilish

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This Serie A argument is just total non-sense especially after people created an argument about Eredivisie last summer and we spent huge on Lisandro Martinez and Antony.

If the player is talented enough or have a ceiling to be world class striker and suit enough for the manager's system then coming from Serie A will not make any difference as long as the manager knows what to do with the player. You are using players who are nowhere near Vlahovic's ceiling and potential as example. I guess it depends on how you see Vlahovic's talent and ceiling, hence why I asked you the question and feel free to let me know your answer.
a- Antony and Martinez were brought from Ajax aka our manager's former club. Thus he knew what he was getting and they knew the style of football we're playing.

b- the Dutch league is more similar to EPL football then the Serie A. Its less tactical based and its played at a higher tempo then the Serie A

c- Most of the Dutch players we've bought lately had tanked (ex Depay, VDB and Blind).

I would have zero issues buying the likes of Osimhen for 50m but it won't be the case. They'll ask anything from 80m-100m. Vlahovic would probably cost more. On those sums you need more guarantees.
 

Borussia Teeth

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So what? Paying a big signing on fee but a reasonable wage makes sense for all parties involved. The player gets his money and it's easier for the club to sell if they want to get rid of him.

Players get their money, one way or the other
So what?

You may not have read my original reply. If we hand out big signing on fees to free agents, it will encourage existing players to demand big signing on fees when they're negotiating their contract renewals. Now, imagine we give Muokoko 20m like the other poster suggested. If you're Rashford, Shaw, Dalot, Garnacho, surely you would also be demanding a 20m signing fee. I know I would.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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a- Antony and Martinez were brought from Ajax aka our manager's former club. Thus he knew what he was getting and they knew the style of football we're playing.

b- the Dutch league is more similar to EPL football then the Serie A. Its less tactical based and its played at a higher tempo then the Serie A

c- Most of the Dutch players we've bought lately had tanked (ex Depay, VDB and Blind).

I would have zero issues buying the likes of Osimhen for 50m but it won't be the case. They'll ask anything from 80m-100m. Vlahovic would probably cost more. On those sums you need more guarantees.
Vlahovic is not an unknown player like Scamacca though. A good manager with attention to detail would very well know how Vlahovic plays and whether he will fit or no without being an ex player just like he knew about Casemiro.

Once again, your reasoning is the money value. A world class potential and talent striker with equal ceiling to RVN would cost 100m in today’s market is better value than midfielder like Bellingham cost more than 100m, thus, I see spending the money on Vlahovic to be less risky than spending the money on Bellingham. It really depends on how you view Vlahovic, hence why I asked you the question and I’m still keen to hear your answer so feel free to let me know your answer.
 

EtH

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I would have zero issues buying the likes of Osimhen for 50m but it won't be the case. They'll ask anything from 80m-100m. Vlahovic would probably cost more. On those sums you need more guarantees.
Especially when you can get Harry Kane for well less than that. We should be going all out for him this summer. It’s a fecking no-brainer.
 

devilish

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Vlahovic is not an unknown player like Scamacca though. A good manager with attention to detail would very well know how Vlahovic plays just like he knew how Casemiro plays.

Once again, your reasoning is the money value. A world class potential and talent striker with equal ceiling to RVN would cost 100m in today’s market is better value than midfielder like Bellingham cost more than 100m, thus, I see spending the money on Vlahovic to be less risky than spending the money on Bellingham. It really depends on how you view Vlahovic, hence why I asked you the question and I’m still keen to hear your answer so feel free to let me know your answer.
Vlahovic is a good player but would be outrageously expensive to get him from Juventus. His recent injury record isn't that great as well. I am not impressed with the Serie A defences of late as well. I mean its a league were the likes of Arnautovic, Immobile and Giroud can score a lot of goals in.

Thus I'd say that on the silly money Juventus would ask its a miss for me.
 

devilish

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Especially when you can get Harry Kane for well less than that. We should be going all out for him this summer. It’s a fecking no-brainer.
Harry Kane will be 30 in July. Vlahovic/Osimhen are younger (though I think not as good). Let's spell it out for everyone. I don't think that this is an issue we can sort by throwing money at. That top top striker who can slot in and immediately score tons of goals simply don't exist (or is off my radar). We'll have to work on whoever guy we'll get. Thus in such circumstances I'd rather bring someone whose less polished and on a cheaper/no fee then someone who might be a notch or two ahead but would blow our entire budget and who'll have to live with that ridiculous price tag for all his United's career. I expect United to learn a lesson or two from the Maguire situation.
 

EtH

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Harry Kane will be 30 in July. Vlahovic/Osimhen are younger (though I think not as good). Let's spell it out for everyone. I don't think that this is an issue we can sort by throwing money at. That top top striker who can slot in and immediately score tons of goals simply don't exist (or is off my radar). We'll have to work on whoever guy we'll get. Thus in such circumstances I'd rather bring someone whose less polished and on a cheaper/no fee then someone who might be a notch or two ahead but would blow our entire budget and who'll have to live with that ridiculous price tag for all his United's career. I expect United to learn a lesson or two from the Maguire situation.
So you’re saying Harry bleeding Kane wouldn’t slot in and score tons of goals ? I know his first name is Harry and he’s English but that’s where any comparison with Maguire ends. He’ll also only have a year left on his contract. He should be the clear target this summer.
 

Erik the Red

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I would say we shouldn't be aiming for Bellingham just to sacrifice the quality of forward we can bring in.
We shouldn't be aiming for Bellingham because a) he is way overpriced, which means that he will be expecting an automatic starting position, upsetting the balance of the team, and b) because I think we need a different type of midfielder for ETH's system, more of a playmaker than a box to box, someone like FDJ or Enzo Fernandez.

In terms of strikers, we also shouldn't be going for the stupidly expensive ones unless they are generational talents like Mbappe (and potentially Endrick). The £100m Osimhen, Lukaku, type signings never seem to work out well. I would go for Sesko, Gakpo and Moukoko.

There was an interesting article from CIES, listing the most valuable players outside the top 5 leagues, and their tip three were Enzo Fernandes, Cody Gakpo and Diogo Costa, with Timber just outside the top 5. I think we are more likely to succeed picking up value for money players in these markets and in South America, rather than the big 5 leagues (I'm not suggesting that we should ignore the big 5 leagues before I get lynched by some Osimhen or Toney fanboys).
 

DomesticTadpole

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We shouldn't be aiming for Bellingham because a) he is way overpriced, which means that he will be expecting an automatic starting position, upsetting the balance of the team, and b) because I think we need a different type of midfielder for ETH's system, more of a playmaker than a box to box, someone like FDJ or Enzo Fernandez.

In terms of strikers, we also shouldn't be going for the stupidly expensive ones unless they are generational talents like Mbappe (and potentially Endrick). The £100m Osimhen, Lukaku, type signings never seem to work out well. I would go for Sesko, Gakpo and Moukoko.

There was an interesting article from CIES, listing the most valuable players outside the top 5 leagues, and their tip three were Enzo Fernandes, Cody Gakpo and Diogo Costa, with Timber just outside the top 5. I think we are more likely to succeed picking up value for money players in these markets and in South America, rather than the big 5 leagues (I'm not suggesting that we should ignore the big 5 leagues before I get lynched by some Osimhen or Toney fanboys).
I would be very wary of us buying anybody from Dortmund ever again.
 

devilish

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So you’re saying Harry bleeding Kane wouldn’t slot in and score tons of goals ? I know his first name is Harry and he’s English but that’s where any comparison with Maguire ends. He’ll also only have a year left on his contract. He should be the clear target this summer.
He probably would but at his age would he be worth 80m-100m?
 

EtH

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I can't see him going for less then 70m-100m tbh.
Kane £75m
Tielemans free
Ndicka free
Frimpong £25m

There’s even room there for another player or two. You don’t go bargain bin up top when you have not one reliable striker on the books.
 

devilish

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Kane £75m
Tielemans free
Ndicka free
Frimpong £25m

There’s even room there for another player or two. You don’t go bargain bin up top when you have not one reliable striker on the books.
Look I am not entirely against Harry Kane. FFS how could you be against that? However he's 30 in the summer and would cost 75m-100m. By 3-4 years time we'll have to replace him, Casemiro, DDG and Varane. That's quite daunting.
 

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If we're gonna get a 30yo proven EPL forward up top, then I want this guy on a free.

 

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If we're gonna get a 30yo proven EPL forward up top, then I want this guy on a free.

Why? He's never scored more than 15 goals in the league. He's found his level.
 

MadMike

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Why? He's never scored more than 15 goals in the league. He's found his level.
Martial and Rashford have each scored more than 15 league goals only once. They play for Man Utd not bottom-half Palace. And before you saying anything about them playing a lot from the left wing, so did Zaha.

He is probably one of the most difficult forwards to play against. He’s a livewire and a menace. Every time I see a Palace game, opposition defenders really struggle to contain him. He is a natural athlete… very strong, rapid (regularly features in the list of fastest sprinters), can hold the ball up really well and he can dribble. On top of that he runs, presses a lot, gets stuck in and exhibits really good stamina.

He doesn’t score as much as he should, he loses discipline a lot and he often puts he headdown and dribbles more than he should. But he’s a disruptor of defences who I think makes a good option to have upfront if he’s up for a squad role. He would be a sub to Martial.
 

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Martial and Rashford have each scored more than 15 league goals only once. They play for Man Utd not bottom-half Palace. And before you saying anything about them playing a lot from the left wing, so did Zaha.

He is probably one of the most difficult forwards to play against. He’s a livewire and a menace. Every time I see a Palace game, opposition defenders really struggle to contain him. He is a natural athlete… very strong, rapid (regularly features in the list of fastest sprinters), can hold the ball up really well and he can dribble. On top of that he runs, presses a lot, gets stuck in and exhibits really good stamina.

He doesn’t score as much as he should, he loses discipline a lot and he often puts he headdown and dribbles more than he should. But he’s a disruptor of defences who I think makes a good option to have upfront if he’s up for a squad role. He would be a sub to Martial.
He doesn't have the maturity to be a squad player.
 

Lash

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Martial and Rashford have each scored more than 15 league goals only once. They play for Man Utd not bottom-half Palace. And before you saying anything about them playing a lot from the left wing, so did Zaha.

He is probably one of the most difficult forwards to play against. He’s a livewire and a menace. Every time I see a Palace game, opposition defenders really struggle to contain him. He is a natural athlete… very strong, rapid (regularly features in the list of fastest sprinters), can hold the ball up really well and he can dribble. On top of that he runs, presses a lot, gets stuck in and exhibits really good stamina.

He doesn’t score as much as he should, he loses discipline a lot and he often puts he headdown and dribbles more than he should. But he’s a disruptor of defences who I think makes a good option to have upfront if he’s up for a squad role. He would be a sub to Martial.
Agreed, so why would we get someone with a similar output? Zaha is the main source of goals and focal point attack, yet he puts up the numbers that are average.

I don't really buy into it, he flatters to deceive. There is a reason he is 30 and no one has bothered to seriously try for him. He'd want big wages on a free as well - something he doesn't merit.
 

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Agreed, so why would we get someone with a similar output? Zaha is the main source of goals and focal point attack, yet he puts up the numbers that are average.

I don't really buy into it, he flatters to deceive. There is a reason he is 30 and no one has bothered to seriously try for him. He'd want big wages on a free as well - something he doesn't merit.
Zaha hasn't been the main focus of their attack, that's the opposite to what I said. They've played Benteke, Batsuahi and Edouard (just off the top of my head) as their main striker in recent years. Zaha often fills in the striker role when needed, like Rashford, when there's absences. In 20/21 he played more as a striker than winger and he got 9 goals in 21 league games. His numbers for a winger/striker playing for a bottom half club are actually pretty good.

Again, I just see him as a really good squad player. He can ask whatever he want, doesn't mean he'll get it. If he's worth more to Palace and they give him the salary, he can of course stay.
 

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Would love Moukoko tbh. I know it’s probably not what we need i.e. a ready made starter, but he’s some talent for his age, would be true to our traditions and could rotate for a couple years until taking over all going well.
And he’d be relatively cheap.
 

Lash

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Zaha hasn't been the main focus of their attack, that's the opposite to what I said. They've played Benteke, Batsuahi and Edouard (just off the top of my head) as their main striker in recent years. Zaha often fills in the striker role when needed, like Rashford, when there's absences. In 20/21 he played more as a striker than winger and he got 9 goals in 21 league games. His numbers for a winger/striker playing for a bottom half club are actually pretty good.

Again, I just see him as a really good squad player. He can ask whatever he want, doesn't mean he'll get it. If he's worth more to Palace and they give him the salary, he can of course stay.
He is though, their team is built around putting him in the goal scoring opportunities, not Benteke Batshuai or Eduoard. He's a winger in the same sense Rashford is and we expect Rashford to chip in with 20+ goals a season. I don't think his numbers are that good, Cornet got 9 in 26 for example, for Burnley.

There's no doubt he has a very unique skill set of tricker, pace, power and league experience - it's just not really translated in to anything people would break the bank for. He's on 130k a week at Palace, he'll want an increase as it's his last big contract and a signing on for being a free agent. For a squad player, I think that's got be a hard pass for a lot of teams. I don't see any team that particularly needs him enough to pay him that.
 

croadyman

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actually I don’t want shearer/batistuta/rvn types. These poachers always win the league top scorer awards BUT their teams hardly ever win the league. I prefer a fluid front 3 where each forward chip in with 20/25 goals a season like Tevez/Ronaldo/Rooney or the awesome pairs of Yorkey-cole/teddy-ole that almost always scored about 15-20 each year
Who would be your top target?
 

MadMike

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He is though, their team is built around putting him in the goal scoring opportunities, not Benteke Batshuai or Eduoard. He's a winger in the same sense Rashford is and we expect Rashford to chip in with 20+ goals a season. I don't think his numbers are that good, Cornet got 9 in 26 for example, for Burnley.

There's no doubt he has a very unique skill set of tricker, pace, power and league experience - it's just not really translated in to anything people would break the bank for. He's on 130k a week at Palace, he'll want an increase as it's his last big contract and a signing on for being a free agent. For a squad player, I think that's got be a hard pass for a lot of teams. I don't see any team that particularly needs him enough to pay him that.
We agree on a lot, actually. Bar some details and the of course the final opinion on signing him or not.

- Yes he is a lot like Rashford in many respects.
- No, the team isn't specifically setup for him to score. Benteke and Ayew have been as much if not more the focal point of their attacks in the past. United is not set up for Rashford to score any more than Martial. It's the same.
- I don't know about the 20+ in a season expectation, Rashford's only ever achieved that twice in 7 years and that's with longer seasons due to European fixtures. His numbers are not too dissimilar from Rashford's in the league these last 3 years anyway. The expectation is more like 15+ for me and he would achieve those numbers here I believe.

Finally yes, his unique skillset has not translated into anything that people would break the bank for. Which is precisely why no one is proposing to break the bank for him at all. You throw him a 2+1 years £150k contract and if he wants to come try some European football and a top 4 race, he can come. If he's more comfy sitting at Palace and being the star man, so be it.

Anyway, I think we've kinda exhausted his topic. I see all your viewpoints and I think you see mine, we just have different opinion on whether he'd be a good squad player.

He doesn't have the maturity to be a squad player.
He's not 20 any more. I can see why that would be a worry, he's a very temperamental and impulsive man, but I think he's mature enough to at least know if it's for him or not. If he's not cool with being a squad player, he will reject the offer out of hand. I don't think he'd accept it and then come and sulk about it.
 
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golden_blunder

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Vlahovic had suffered from a number of injuries lately but the talent is there. However I believe that we need to be thread carefully here. Scamacca for example was scoring a huge amount of goals in the Serie A last season and yet he hasn't yet mirrored that performance in the EPL just yet. Immobile is a goal machine yet he failed to make an impact with Dortmund

As shown by Maguire and AWB the EPL proven thing provide little guarantees as well. The football style being played with the top 6 clubs is different to that played with the rest. The latter tend to prefer soaking pressure in their own half and hit teams on the break while the top dogs are being forced to hammer themselves in 6-7 men defences. That means that a Toney or a Mitrovic who are great at the lower end of the EPL table might struggle with us.

Considering our limited budget and the absence of dead certs out there to invest upon then I believe that we should aim for players who wouldn't cost a bomb and who has the characteristics to succeed with us. I am referring to the likes of Moukoko, Thuram and Gapko (who is a LW but who has the right characteristics to switch up front)
I don’t get your logic here, they’d get more chances at United and they are certainly no more a gamble than the ones you’ve mentioned
 
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