It might not have been the target at the start of the season, but having worked yourself into this position, it will surely be hugely disappointing to not finish 4th.
The chase for 4th place (not top 4)
- Thread starter Bastian
- Start date
it is nice to get there for sure, but i won't be too disappointed if we get 5th or 6th. Arteta still need to sort out the team, build a solid foundation and go from there. He is half way there. When we qualified for CL back then we got knock out pretty quickly anyway. The team is not strong enough to advance further in the competition. The benefit of CL is mostly money to the club, which is important for sure. No player join arsenal because the team can challenge for CL even we get the 4th place, not now. That's for Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool. We have no depth in CB, RB, CM, and striker at the moment. Edu is doing a good job so far, hopefully he can bring in more players like Takehiro Tomiyasu and Odegaard.
Last edited:
You're not happy with Ramsdale and Tomiyasu?
Course I am but Leno will leave and i'm not happy with Cedric really.
Ramsdale
New GK
Tomiyasu
New RB
White
Gabriel
Saliba
Holding
Chambers
Tierney
Tavares
Partey
New DM
Xhaka
Lokonga
Odegaard
Patino
Saka
Pepe
New ST
Laca?
Martinelli
ESR
This is a squad that can compete imo. Laca, unsure what will happen there. Ideally we get him on a 1-2 year deal but we'll see.
Whilst not expected before the season, you lot should be very disappointed if you don’t get top 4 at this rate.
The top three are exceptional but the standard challengers Leicester and United are beyond trash this season. Spurs are still pretty dull and may get found out in the next few weeks. This is similar to 2016 for you guys.
I hear you. I just think sometimes expectations can change when the team exceeds expectations. Looking at how the season has panned out so far, if I was an Arsenal fan, I'd be targeting the 4th spot now and it's absolutely there for the taking.
I just won't be on the "Arteta Out" camp if we don't get top 4 at the end of this season. Not sure if the board change the expectation and allocate more resource in January though.
Oh no, I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. Just saying not finishing 4th from this position would be disappointing. When Chelsea started the season under the transfer ban and Lampard at the helm, I expected a 5th/6th place finish, but as the season unfolded and I could see Lampard had us performing better than expected, I adjusted my expectations. That doesn't mean I would have gotten on Lampard's back had we failed to finish 4th, just that it was clearly there for the taking and not achieving it, from the position we were in midseason, would have been hugely disappointing.
If you think the likes of Saka, ESR, Martinelli etc will stick around to compete for Europa league places while their stock rises you're very mistaken.
With all due respect, we were the highest spending club in Europe last summer, including net spend. We're the 3rd most successful team in English football. We have basically 1 game a week and are up against 2 teams who changed coach mid season, an injury ravaged Leicester and West Ham who have no right to be competing with ourselves, Spurs and United.
Bit sick of some of our fans acting like we're West Ham. Top 4 should be the absolute minimum target.
The same can be said for Man Utd too. So Arsenal and Man Utd need to fire manager every time if the team fail to get 4th place.
I know Chelsea would. If the club is putting in the money to buy quality players, the manager better deliver.
If that's what it takes to maintain the standards at both these great clubs then absolutely. United should've fired Solskjaer ages ago, and Arteta's still in a job because of our kids.
I mean this applies to Chelsea, but for Arsenal it's clear what our transfer policy was. To buy players with high potential that aren't top quality right now, and develop them alongside Arteta. The plan wasn't for instant success, rather than progress over time. Chelsea often buy for instant success, so if the manager doesn't deliver then he's out. There's a clear difference.
Again, this is rubbish imo. We spent a lot of money, but the policy was to spend on fees for potential growth, and save money on wages. If you combine wages and fees then do your net spend, where do we come? Also, we bought 6 players. Most other sides didn't buy that many (of the top sides), and we didn't sell anyone of note really hence why our spend/net is high. I find it lazy for people to just point to our spend this summer and expect us to now suddenly do well this season. I get why some other rival fans say it as an out, but sure why an Arsenal fan would say that?
Is Ben White a £50m player right now? No. The club bought him to develop with Gabriel in the hope both can be a solid partnership for the next number of seasons.
At the start of this season, everyone thought United would finish in the top 4, Spurs would finish above us, and we'd be competing with Leicester for the next spot. They also thought our transfer business was a joke. Now suddenly everyones changing their tune and saying, oh we spent a load of money so should be 4th. Find it quite ironic really.
Spurs and United both have stronger squads than us on paper. If we finish above them, it's because we have a better manager despite many people thinking Arteta isn't good enough. I am definitely aiming for 4th, but 6th should be the minimum this season. 4th, maybe 3rd, would be a fantastic season beyond expectations of every single fan at the start of the season. The fact that other sides have struggled gives us an opportunity to push hard for it.
Arsenal spent lots of money in transfer (and also in net spent) last summer to overhaul the squad. That is true. It is due to the mismanagement for the past years and the players we have in the squad don't fit Arteta's tactic, and they are also hard to move on. Most of them either sell for very cheap fee or on loan. Chelsea is top top on player recruitment that is for sure. Chelsea's transfer net spent is remarkable. I don't agree Arsenal spent the money to buy quality players, if the "quality" refers to the quality player Chelsea used to bring in like Lukaku, Havertz, Werner, Chilwell, and Ziyech. They are all established/proven quality player before they joined Chelsea. The same can't be said for Ben White, Odegaard, Ramsdale, Tomiyasu, Lokonga, Tavares. I never heard of them except Ben white(due to Leed united documentary in Amazon) and Odegaard before they joined us.
Last edited:
Its not about whether you have already played a big team or not.
What matters is, what you did in those big games home or away.
City 5-0 Arsenal
Arsenal 0-2 Chelsea
Liverpool 4-0 Arsenal
Arsenal 1-2 City
United 3-2 Arsenal
Spurs picked up a draw against Liverpool. One of the 2 teams in league this season, to win against City as well.
Yes, we have big games left - but with Conte, we will give a game and get results in most of those big games.
The fact that we even get to spend £50m on a player for the future is a luxury 90% of the league can't afford. We have a £72m player who rides our bench every week, alongside one of the best young talents in Europe (ESR). Start of season predictions are always nonsense because they just mirror the previous season.
We were in the CL 19 seasons in a row until 2016. We've been charging the highest ticket prices in the land for 15 seasons. We have the 3rd wealthiest owners in the country. Only 2 club stadiums have higher capacity than the Emirates. Based on social following, shirt sales, sponsorship deals, and estimated world wide fans, we rank 5th globally.
If this isn't translating to a reasonable expectation of at least top 4 in England to you, something is wrong.
4th is still minimum standard for a club of our size that wants to attract and retain the best talent. 5th and 6th are targets for teams like Leicester, Villa and Everton, but not acceptable for Arsenal, Spurs or especially United.
Spurs and United will be much stronger next season and the current top 3 will also.
I mean you ignored any points I made about what happened in those games, and then pointed to a result which happened under Nuno despite using him as an excuse previously, so I haven't got much more to say here.
Let's see what happens.
It's a shame he is injured but Son from Spurs being injured is likely to have an effect on Spurs for the top 4 spot.
Wonder if they will utelise the fact they are in the Transfer window to their benefit.
Wonder if they will utelise the fact they are in the Transfer window to their benefit.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Forget top 4, we won't even make top 6.
Unless were finishing top 4 i want us to finish 8th to avoid europa and the fecking conference, since top 4 is already a pipe dream rangnick should might aswell play the kids and weed out the trouble makers so that we can start next season on a clean slate.
Unless were finishing top 4 i want us to finish 8th to avoid europa and the fecking conference, since top 4 is already a pipe dream rangnick should might aswell play the kids and weed out the trouble makers so that we can start next season on a clean slate.
Very unlikely, to make Top 4 now. We are just nowhere near consistent enough with results and playing some of the worst football, in United history.
I think we will finish anywhere between 5th -8th. This is not just hysteria based on 1 bad defeat, but just the way we have been performing.
We can't even string 5 passes together at the moment in any match and have been completely outplayed in each of out last 4 matches.
I think we will finish anywhere between 5th -8th. This is not just hysteria based on 1 bad defeat, but just the way we have been performing.
We can't even string 5 passes together at the moment in any match and have been completely outplayed in each of out last 4 matches.
Traore + Lucas + Gil should be enough to cover for these few weeks
Sure I wouldn’t write them off but it always looked like Kane is playing to 3/4 of his strengths at man and Son was their main man.
This. Nothing fecks a big club trying to rebuild more than playing in one of those godforsaken competitions.
Sons been poor for a few weeks now, Kane has stepped up.
Top 4 is a realistic possibility for us (Arsenal). When United signed Ronaldo I sincerely believe he would keep up his goal a game ratio that he held for three years at Juventus, I thought United would challenge for the title on the back of Ronaldo scoring minimum 30 league goals this year & elevating everyone around him. Although the opposite has happened, he hasn't scored goals at that rate, infact his goals to game ratio is a straight 0.5 having scored 8 in 16 (two penalties), and his presence has seemed to have added some toxicity to United team as he is berating his team mates for not being up to his standard.
At Arsenal, I thought Ramsdale was competition at most for Leno, when it now appears he might be our next David Seaman. I was skeptical of Tomiyasu even though 16m is a decent fee for a right back, although he has excelled beyond all expectations and made the right back spot his own (Bellerin is finished). Odegaard was a good player but he has gone up a level this year - very Mesut Ozil like. White compliments Gabriel very well although at 50m pounds he should. Although the real driving force in the teams is ESR, Saka and Martinelli. All three have been sensational. Arteta also flied under the radar, he is actually a top manager in the making. He doesn't cop rubbish and has no problem freezing out PEA or benching our record signing in Pepe. He has shelved these two players for the kids Saka, Martinelli and ESR. Ole should have hooked Maguire a long time ago, but he kept picking him because he bought him for 80m. Arteta is serious about management and wont carry passengers. Ole didnt have such conviction.
Our rise in the past few months has been rapid. We are still rough around the edges, we let City of the hook, but the positives I draw form that game was Peps face in the first half, looking into space in a daze wondering what was going on, only being rescued by Xhaka and the red card. We need to get rid of Xhaka just as much as you guys need to get rid of Maguire - these players give away goals and get stupid red cards. They are liabilities. Tottenham also carry some problem players like Ndombele who has been a ghost in their midfield and
All three of Arsenal, Tottenham and Man United could finish 4th. It could be settled in this January window. We are chasing one of Melo, Guimaraes and Tielemans to play net to Partey due to the fact Xhaka is useless. Do United acknowledge your backline is out of sorts? That Wan Bissaka and Maguire are perennial underperformers & Shaw's reputation is undeserved?
If we complete that midfield signing we complete our first team
Ramsdale,
Tomiyasu White, Gabriel, Tierney,
Melo, Partey,
Martinelli (ESR), Odegaard (ESR), Saka
Lacazette.
We will win qoute a few games with that team.
At Arsenal, I thought Ramsdale was competition at most for Leno, when it now appears he might be our next David Seaman. I was skeptical of Tomiyasu even though 16m is a decent fee for a right back, although he has excelled beyond all expectations and made the right back spot his own (Bellerin is finished). Odegaard was a good player but he has gone up a level this year - very Mesut Ozil like. White compliments Gabriel very well although at 50m pounds he should. Although the real driving force in the teams is ESR, Saka and Martinelli. All three have been sensational. Arteta also flied under the radar, he is actually a top manager in the making. He doesn't cop rubbish and has no problem freezing out PEA or benching our record signing in Pepe. He has shelved these two players for the kids Saka, Martinelli and ESR. Ole should have hooked Maguire a long time ago, but he kept picking him because he bought him for 80m. Arteta is serious about management and wont carry passengers. Ole didnt have such conviction.
Our rise in the past few months has been rapid. We are still rough around the edges, we let City of the hook, but the positives I draw form that game was Peps face in the first half, looking into space in a daze wondering what was going on, only being rescued by Xhaka and the red card. We need to get rid of Xhaka just as much as you guys need to get rid of Maguire - these players give away goals and get stupid red cards. They are liabilities. Tottenham also carry some problem players like Ndombele who has been a ghost in their midfield and
All three of Arsenal, Tottenham and Man United could finish 4th. It could be settled in this January window. We are chasing one of Melo, Guimaraes and Tielemans to play net to Partey due to the fact Xhaka is useless. Do United acknowledge your backline is out of sorts? That Wan Bissaka and Maguire are perennial underperformers & Shaw's reputation is undeserved?
If we complete that midfield signing we complete our first team
Ramsdale,
Tomiyasu White, Gabriel, Tierney,
Melo, Partey,
Martinelli (ESR), Odegaard (ESR), Saka
Lacazette.
We will win qoute a few games with that team.
Right now, I think Spurs are in the best position to take 4th, then Arsenal, then us, then West Ham.
West Ham has only 16 games left, of whom 6 is against the other top 7 teams, against whom they are usually fragile. We have 18 left, also with 6 against the other top 7 teams, and are 2 points behind West Ham. Arsenal, like us, have 18 left, but only 5 against the other top 7 teams, and they're 3 points ahead. They do however have a weak record against top teams. Spurs have a whopping 20 games remaining, and are 4 behind West Ham, 2 behind Arsenal, 1 ahead of us. Granted with 7 of those 20 games being against the other top 7 teams, but still.
Here's one way to look at it:
For reference, these are the average points per game taken by the top 6 teams on the table so far this season:
Man City: 2.5
Liverpool: 2.1
Chelsea: 2.0
West Ham: 1.7
Arsenal: 1.8
Spurs: 1.8
We took 1.42 under Ole (which is roughly similar to Brighton or Leicester now). Carrick raised the team average to 1.5, with a win and a draw in his two games. Under Rangnick it's been at 1.83, pushing the season average to 1.6.
To get to 70 points, we'll need an average of 2.11 for the rest of the season - or in other words, to perform roughly like Liverpool has so far. That would mean a very significant improvement on our performance under Rangnick so far, especially when you consider the opponents he's had and the opponents he will have.
Arsenal to get to the same points need 1.94, which is a bit better than their season average, but if you consider their horrific start they are probably already at more or less the required level, if they can keep it up.
Tottenham needs 1.85, which would only be a slight improvement on their season average. Since that average includes a period of falling apart and sacking the manager, that does not entail any need for signficant improvement on their current level.
West Ham needs 2.06, which is again Liverpool levels, and frankly seems well beyond realistic.
My guess would be that at least one of the other 3 teams will top 70 points this year, so that we'll need not much less than last year's tally (74) to make top 4.
The West Ham game on Saturday is huge.
West Ham has only 16 games left, of whom 6 is against the other top 7 teams, against whom they are usually fragile. We have 18 left, also with 6 against the other top 7 teams, and are 2 points behind West Ham. Arsenal, like us, have 18 left, but only 5 against the other top 7 teams, and they're 3 points ahead. They do however have a weak record against top teams. Spurs have a whopping 20 games remaining, and are 4 behind West Ham, 2 behind Arsenal, 1 ahead of us. Granted with 7 of those 20 games being against the other top 7 teams, but still.
Here's one way to look at it:
For reference, these are the average points per game taken by the top 6 teams on the table so far this season:
Man City: 2.5
Liverpool: 2.1
Chelsea: 2.0
West Ham: 1.7
Arsenal: 1.8
Spurs: 1.8
We took 1.42 under Ole (which is roughly similar to Brighton or Leicester now). Carrick raised the team average to 1.5, with a win and a draw in his two games. Under Rangnick it's been at 1.83, pushing the season average to 1.6.
To get to 70 points, we'll need an average of 2.11 for the rest of the season - or in other words, to perform roughly like Liverpool has so far. That would mean a very significant improvement on our performance under Rangnick so far, especially when you consider the opponents he's had and the opponents he will have.
Arsenal to get to the same points need 1.94, which is a bit better than their season average, but if you consider their horrific start they are probably already at more or less the required level, if they can keep it up.
Tottenham needs 1.85, which would only be a slight improvement on their season average. Since that average includes a period of falling apart and sacking the manager, that does not entail any need for signficant improvement on their current level.
West Ham needs 2.06, which is again Liverpool levels, and frankly seems well beyond realistic.
My guess would be that at least one of the other 3 teams will top 70 points this year, so that we'll need not much less than last year's tally (74) to make top 4.
The West Ham game on Saturday is huge.
Last edited:
Wondering what the impact will be for Spurs to catch up on so many games.
Some good analysis there. The only thing I'd add, is that Spurs games against the top sides to come are nearly all away from home, so that should make things more difficult for them to get those results. For that reason the North London derby is massive for both clubs.
"I'm afraid for you Manchester United, the chase is over"
After the chelsea draw against brighton, this race has two places up for grabs. come on, ralf.
makes it that much more frustrating to have dropped points to Wolves and Newcastle.....3rd and 4th would have been right there for us
Crucial few matches coming up, Chelsea play spurs and Arsenal and we play west ham at home on the weekend.
But we'll most probably drop points tomorrow
But we'll most probably drop points tomorrow
It's done. We're halfway through an extremely soft run of fixtures spanning 3 months and we've massively fecked it up. We should've been 3/4 clear in 4th.
I think people overrating Spurs here, there are still big question marks for me as to whether Conte will get the backing on xfers he needs. If he does, yes, I agree they are probably the main candidates for top 4 and will be a force next year. If he doesnt we could see a Conte and thus, Spurs, implosion, and then they could end up 10th with him walking and a clown like Mason taking over as interim manager.
They need Ndombele, Alli, Winks, Bergwyn, Doherty probably all moved on, I do not rate Sanchez either, he is a worse version of Kaboul from what I have seen. But there is no way they are moving all those players in one window, then they need to find English players to replace Alli, Winks who will cost a premium. Still no backup striker for Kane, with Son down if Kane gets injured who does Conte have?
Spurs recruitment has been rubbish for years, Hojbjerg the only player I can think of in recent times who has came in and actually made a big difference to the starting 11.
Last edited:
I think Arsenal will Arsenal but Tottenham, i'm a bit concerned about that. We need to get on a run ASAP.
Only 2 points behind the fourth spot. Come on, Ralf.
Spurs win.
Need Chelsea to get a result against them this weekend
Need Chelsea to get a result against them this weekend
Spurs are definitely favourites. 1 point behind 4th, with 3 games in hand.
Of course, they will drop points, but we will likely drop more than them.
Of course, they will drop points, but we will likely drop more than them.
With them being proper fired up, and having just been beaten by us twice, and with us kind of lumbering from poor game to poor game, I'm not sure we can be trusted to beat them I'm afraid.
Last edited: