The Culture Wars

dumbo

Don't Just Fly…Soar!
Scout
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
9,362
Location
Thucydides nuts
Interestingly that white women bit is very much an intersectionality critique of what would be considered traditional mainstream feminism. Which I would have thought would have been a bit of a bugbear for you @Pogue Mahone . The gender critical lot would tend to oppose the idea (although theoretically you could be both GC and an intersectionalist, but then life).

Also it's black and Marxist FTW.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-theory/wp/2015/09/24/why-intersectionality-cant-wait/
Kimberlé Crenshaw is the executive director of the African American Policy Forum and a professor of law at Columbia University and the University of California, Los Angeles, law schools.

Intersectionality was a lived reality before it became a term.
Today, nearly three decades after I first put a name to the concept, the term seems to be everywhere. But if women and girls of color continue to be left in the shadows, something vital to the understanding of intersectionality has been lost.

In 1976, Emma DeGraffenreid and several other black women sued General Motors for discrimination, arguing that the company segregated its workforce by race and gender: Blacks did one set of jobs and whites did another. According to the plaintiffs’ experiences, women were welcome to apply for some jobs, while only men were suitable for others. This was of course a problem in and of itself, but for black women the consequences were compounded. You see, the black jobs were men’s jobs, and the women’s jobs were only for whites. Thus, while a black applicant might get hired to work on the floor of the factory if he were male; if she were a black female she would not be considered. Similarly, a woman might be hired as a secretary if she were white, but wouldn’t have a chance at that job if she were black. Neither the black jobs nor the women’s jobs were appropriate for black women, since they were neither male nor white. Wasn’t this clearly discrimination, even if some blacks and some women were hired?

Unfortunately for DeGraffenreid and millions of other black women, the court dismissed their claims. Why? Because the court believed that black women should not be permitted to combine their race and gender claims into one. Because they could not prove that what happened to them was just like what happened to white women or black men, the discrimination that happened to these black women fell through the cracks.
It was in thinking about why such a “big miss” could have happened within the complex structure of anti-discrimination law that the term “intersectionality” was born. As a young law professor, I wanted to define this profound invisibility in relation to the law. Racial and gender discrimination overlapped not only in the workplace but in other other arenas of life; equally significant, these burdens were almost completely absent from feminist and anti-racist advocacy. Intersectionality, then, was my attempt to make feminism, anti-racist activism, and anti-discrimination law do what I thought they should — highlight the multiple avenues through which racial and gender oppression were experienced so that the problems would be easier to discuss and understand.

Intersectionality is an analytic sensibility, a way of thinking about identity and its relationship to power. Originally articulated on behalf of black women, the term brought to light the invisibility of many constituents within groups that claim them as members, but often fail to represent them. Intersectional erasures are not exclusive to black women. People of color within LGBTQ movements; girls of color in the fight against the school-to-prison pipeline; women within immigration movements; trans women within feminist movements; and people with disabilities fighting police abuse — all face vulnerabilities that reflect the intersections of racism, sexism, class oppression, transphobia, able-ism and more. Intersectionality has given many advocates a way to frame their circumstances and to fight for their visibility and inclusion.
Intersectionality has been the banner under which many demands for inclusion have been made, but a term can do no more than those who use it have the power to demand. And not surprisingly, intersectionality has generated its share of debate and controversy.

Conservatives have painted those who practice intersectionality as obsessed with “identity politics.” Of course, as the DeGraffenreid case shows, intersectionality is not just about identities but about the institutions that use identity to exclude and privilege. The better we understand how identities and power work together from one context to another, the less likely our movements for change are to fracture.

Others accuse intersectionality of being too theoretical, of being “all talk and no action.” To that I say we’ve been “talking” about racial equality since the era of slavery and we’re still not even close to realizing it. Instead of blaming the voices that highlight problems, we need to examine the structures of power that so successfully resist change.
[Why Equal Protection may not protect everyone equally.]

Some have argued that intersectional understanding creates an atmosphere of bullying and “privilege checking.” Acknowledging privilege is hard — particularly for those who also experience discrimination and exclusion. While white women and men of color also experience discrimination, all too often their experiences are taken as the only point of departure for all conversations about discrimination. Being front and center in conversations about racism or sexism is a complicated privilege that is often hard to see.

Although the president’s recent call to support black women was commendable, undertaking intersectional work requires concrete action to address the barriers to equality facing women and girls of color in U.S. society.
Intersectionality alone cannot bring invisible bodies into view. Mere words won’t change the way that some people — the less-visible members of political constituencies — must continue to wait for leaders, decision-makers and others to see their struggles. In the context of addressing the racial disparities that still plague our nation, activists and stakeholders must raise awareness about the intersectional dimensions of racial injustice that must be addressed to enhance the lives of all youths of color.

This is why we continue the work of the #WhyWeCantWait Campaign, calling for holistic and inclusive approaches to racial justice. It is why “Say Her Name” continues to draw attention to the fact that women too are vulnerable to losing their lives at the hands of police. And it is why thousands have agreed that the tragedy in Charleston, S.C., demonstrates our need to sustain a vision of social justice that recognizes the ways racism, sexism and other inequalities work together to undermine us all. We simply do not have the luxury of building social movements that are not intersectional, nor can we believe we are doing intersectional work just by saying words.
 
Last edited:

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,127
Regarding white woke women this is the apparent mugshot of the 26 people arrested in connection with the riots 2 days ago involving toppling the two statues and smashing the museum.

 
Last edited:

SomeRandomPerson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2014
Messages
299

This could go in any one of a load of different threads but I’m going with this one. No particular reason. Feck it. Any excuse to give Bill Burr more exposure. The reaction on Twitter is hilarious. So much anger and confusion. From every part of the political spectrum.
White "woke" women. They're fair game to many of them.
White "woke" women. They're fair game to many of them.
I can't speak for people outside twitter but he does seem to have managed to piss every side off. The more left wing types because of the critique of white "woke" women and the more right wing types because he described the historical actions of white men as "crimes against humanity" and told white women to shut up, sit down and "take your talking to" from people of color. Just based on a quick overview of twitter, comedians (obviously) and 'black twitter' seem to have found his monologue hilarious.

On an aside, I think Bill Burr (and maybe Colin Quinn) seem to have a reasonably good sense of perspective about the culture war thing. I've seen Burr make fun of PC culture, but also make fun of comedians who try to leverage the whole cancel culture thing to make themselves seem like martyrs; when he was promoting his last Netflix special, he talked in an interview about how much he hates comedians using this tp make themselves seem 'dangerous' (he said something along the lines of "Dude, you tell knock-knock jokes. Stop making it seem like you're some rebel."). I think not taking himself too seriously makes him funnier and generally makes his critique of cancel culture more palatable compared not only to the whole IDW/Ben Shapiro crew, but also Ricky Gervais and to a lesser extent, maybe even Dave Chappelle.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,853
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I can't speak for people outside twitter but he does seem to have managed to piss every side off. The more left wing types because of the critique of white "woke" women and the more right wing types because he described the historical actions of white men as "crimes against humanity" and told white women to shut up, sit down and "take your talking to" from people of color. Just based on a quick overview of twitter, comedians (obviously) and 'black twitter' seem to have found his monologue hilarious.

On an aside, I think Bill Burr (and maybe Colin Quinn) seem to have a reasonably good sense of perspective about the culture war thing. I've seen Burr make fun of PC culture, but also make fun of comedians who try to leverage the whole cancel culture thing to make themselves seem like martyrs; when he was promoting his last Netflix special, he talked in an interview about how much he hates comedians using this tp make themselves seem 'dangerous' (he said something along the lines of "Dude, you tell knock-knock jokes. Stop making it seem like you're some rebel."). I think not taking himself too seriously makes him funnier and generally makes his critique of cancel culture more palatable compared not only to the whole IDW/Ben Shapiro crew, but also Ricky Gervais and to a lesser extent, maybe even Dave Chappelle.
Yeah, exactly. It’s a bit of a cliché but the fact that he married a black woman (and often talks about how she is educating him on the experience of being black in America) means he can deal with racism in his comedy in a far more thoughtful and clever way than any other white comic I can think of. So it’s no surprise that he nails the funny bone of “black twitter” with this monologue.

His Netflix special is superb. He tip-toes through the culture war, taking shots at both sides, without ever being genuinely offensive or nasty. Plus it’s funny as feck.
 
Last edited:

Synco

Lucio's #1 Fan
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
6,450
I can't speak for people outside twitter but he does seem to have managed to piss every side off. The more left wing types because of the critique of white "woke" women and the more right wing types because he described the historical actions of white men as "crimes against humanity" and told white women to shut up, sit down and "take your talking to" from people of color. Just based on a quick overview of twitter, comedians (obviously) and 'black twitter' seem to have found his monologue hilarious.
The point is: Burr didn't piss "every" side off; he also catered to a part of the political spectrum, as all comedy does. It's just a characteristic of this section that its adherents don't perceive themselves as an active part of the political mess, having political identities of their own. They usually perceive themselves as objective outside observers of a "culture war" they happen to be detached from. The ideologue is always the other.

The notions that "everybody" or "both sides" were pissed off by Burr illustrates that misconception pretty well: by simple logic, all those who liked the monologue are "nobody" and "no side" then. It's only jargon, but jargon can be quite telling.

I'd say here on the CE this section is most vocally represented by @Pogue Mahone (liberal end) and @Shamana (right wing end). It's far from a uniform crowd, but despite all differences, common ground is the resentment for "wokes" and "political correctness". I find it pretty obvious that enemyship to the leftist bogeyman has a certain unifying quality for a broad part of the public, who otherwise severely dislike each other. That's also why - I've pointed that out some time earlier - all of them can use the same set of political buzzwords, including far right outlets like Fox News and Breitbart. Or whatever their equivalents in other countries.

Trump's posture of chivalrously protecting legitimate black concerns from Marxist white Antifa extremists is a good example for the general formula. He's just too clumsy and obvious to really make it work.
 
Last edited:

Don't Kill Bill

Full Member
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
5,669
Regarding white woke women this is the apparent mugshot of the 26 people arrested in connection with the riots 2 days ago involving toppling the two statues and smashing the museum.

I'm tired but it looks like 25 mugshots to me. Might be one is hidden behind the gravitationally challenged person middle right though.
 

hobbers

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
28,236
You would think any one of those people in the mugshots could look around at their compatriots and maybe realise it might be a good idea to re evaluate their life choices. :lol:
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,127
I'm tired but it looks like 25 mugshots to me. Might be one is hidden behind the gravitationally challenged person middle right though.
It's because I took the mugshot from lawenforcementtoday.com instead of the picture circulating on twitter containing the additional missing person on the mugshot. Its true on this one there is only 25.
 
Last edited:

Don't Kill Bill

Full Member
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
5,669
It's because I took the mugshot from lawenforcementtoday.com instead of the picture circulating on twitter containing the additional missing person on the mugshot. Its true on this one there is only 25.
When I get tired for whatever reason these things shout out at me. It isn't important, I'm pulling your leg.
 

dumbo

Don't Just Fly…Soar!
Scout
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
9,362
Location
Thucydides nuts
Lefties call themself liberal but where is that same "liberal tolerance" when I want to change my gender to Hitler Youth.

I was literally "cancelled" outside the school gates for trying to strangle passing children.

And other tales of oppressed Tories.
 

dumbo

Don't Just Fly…Soar!
Scout
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
9,362
Location
Thucydides nuts
In 2017, the Royal Society of Medicine said that government austerity decisions in health and social care were likely to have resulted in 30,000 deaths in England and Wales in 2015.
Don't criticise me for a simple political disagreement.

The rate of increase in life expectancy in England nearly halved between 2010 and 2017, according to research by epidemiology professor Michael Marmot. He commented that it was "entirely possible" that austerity was the cause[81] and said: "If we don't spend appropriately on social care, if we don't spend appropriately on health care, the quality of life will get worse for older people and maybe the length of life, too."[82]
People should be free to support whoever they want, without fear of name calling.

It's not racist to express my freedom of speech rights in support of my Tory team.

let me live in Tory peace, free from oppressive lefty kids.

Just fecking horrible people.
 

Marcosdeto

Guess who's back?
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
49,983
Location
Buenos Aires - Argentina

This could go in any one of a load of different threads but I’m going with this one. No particular reason. Feck it. Any excuse to give Bill Burr more exposure. The reaction on Twitter is hilarious. So much anger and confusion. From every part of the political spectrum.
he is so funny

tough times to have an opinion, though
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,634
Well that's the point isn't it. It's complex. Capitalism is ultimately about property relations and the free market. I don't have a raging hard-on for capitalism, but it is a bit weird for me to hear that capitalism has caused more wars, deaths, poverty and suffering than anything in history.
If you use the same standards used to arrive at that (nonsensical) 100 million number, the capitalist number far surpasses that. The numbers themselves are very questionable, for example the book's co-authors themselves have questioned 100m. And in their comparison with Nazi deaths, the book doesn't count deaths in the second world war. The methodology is also controversial:
http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.html

Like others, Ryan reasonably selects as Exhibit A of the criminal indictment the Chinese famines of 1958-61, with a death toll of 25-40 million, he reports, a sizeable chunk of the 100 million corpses the "recording angels" attribute to "Communism" (whatever that is, but let us use the conventional term). The terrible atrocity fully merits the harsh condemnation it has received for many years, renewed here. It is, furthermore, proper to attribute the famine to Communism. That conclusion was established most authoritatively in the work of economist Amartya Sen, whose comparison of the Chinese famine to the record of democratic India received particular attention when he won the Nobel Prize a few years ago. Writing in the early 1980s, Sen observed that India had suffered no such famine. He attributed the India-China difference to India's "political system of adversarial journalism and opposition," while in contrast, China's totalitarian regime suffered from "misinformation" that undercut a serious response, and there was "little political pressure" from opposition groups and an informed public (Jean Dreze and Amartya Sen, Hunger and Public Action, 1989; they estimate deaths at 16.5 to 29.5 million).

The example stands as a dramatic "criminal indictment" of totalitarian Communism, exactly as Ryan writes. But before closing the book on the indictment we might want to turn to the other half of Sen's India-China comparison, which somehow never seems to surface despite the emphasis Sen placed on it. He observes that India and China had "similarities that were quite striking" when development planning began 50 years ago, including death rates. "But there is little doubt that as far as morbidity, mortality and longevity are concerned, China has a large and decisive lead over India" (in education and other social indicators as well). He estimates the excess of mortality in India over China to be close to 4 million a year: "India seems to manage to fill its cupboard with more skeletons every eight years than China put there in its years of shame," 1958-1961 (Dreze and Sen).

In both cases, the outcomes have to do with the "ideological predispositions" of the political systems: for China, relatively equitable distribution of medical resources, including rural health services, and public distribution of food, all lacking in India. This was before 1979, when "the downward trend in

About capitalist numbers:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/jan/20/historybooks.famine
In Late Victorian Holocausts, Mike Davis charts the unprecedented human suffering caused by a series of extreme climactic conditions in the final quarter of the 19th century. Drought and monsoons afflicted much of China, southern Africa, Brazil, Egypt and India. The death tolls were staggering: around 12m Chinese and over 6m Indians in 1876-1878 alone. The chief culprit, according to Davis, was not the weather, but European empires, with Japan and the US. Their imposition of free-market economics on the colonial world was tantamount to a "cultural genocide".

https://ajuntament.barcelona.cat/gabinetpostal/lestat-lliure-del-congo-un-genocidi-a-lombra/?lang=en
Leopold II ruled the Congo as his personal dominion from 1885 to 1908. During this period, the country was forced to endure the systematic exploitation of its natural resources, especially ivory and rubber.

Though the territory was governed from Brussels, the administrative capital was the port city of Boma, from where the massive exports of raw materials were shipped. Boma was the residence of the Governor General of the Congo, who was the direct representative of the king (in fact, Leopold II never once set foot in Africa). The state was divided into 14 districts which were administrated by commissioners who reported to the Governor General, and were appointed directly by the king. These functionaries sometimes acted as colonial administrators and trading agents, though their main function was to secure the largest possible amounts of ivory and rubber in the shortest possible time.

During the 1890s, and thanks to the widespread use of slaves, a more reliable transport network was built up, thus making it possible to export even more of the Congo’s natural resources. The construction of these infrastructures, all created exclusively for personal interests, resulted in the deaths of many workers of all ages. Their working days were long and hard, and required an enormous amount of physical effort. According to historical documentation, between five and 10 million people died as a result of the colonial exploitation under the rule and administration of King Leopold II and his functionaries.

https://www.history.com/news/native-americans-genocide-united-states
From the time Europeans arrived on American shores, the frontier—the edge territory between white man’s civilization and the untamed natural world—became a shared space of vast, clashing differences that led the U.S. government to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians, the most of any country in the world against its indigenous people. By the close of the Indian Wars in the late 19th century, fewer than 238,000 indigenous people remained, a sharp decline from the estimated 5 million to 15 million living in North America when Columbus arrived in 1492.

Away from these distant colonies, the famine in Ireland killed an eighth of the population, something Mao's obsession of steel and sparrows couldn't come close to matching, and not even the sadism, brutality, and irrationality of Pol Pot can match what happened in Congo (half the population).

Is it fair to blame capitalism for these deaths?

Yes. Colonisation was a natural by-product of capitalism. Hence, nearly all successful capitalist countries - Britain, France, Germany, Holland, and Japan had or tried to have a colonial empire. Portugal had a colonial empire without (mostly) being an industrial capitalist country, but their loot was the input for other capitalist countries. The US was the exception since it never had a formal empire, their colonisation happened in their own backyard, into the "empty" land (in which millions lived and resources worth much more than those lives could be found).

And there is a reason why the capitalist revolution spurred colonial expansion. New factories needed raw materials and markets for their outputs. Trade of commodities bought or stolen from the colonies was done by private stock-market companies (like the East India Company, which ran India till 1857, and pioneered many of the features of corporations today; the Dutch East India Company did the world's first IPO). Invasions and coups were carried out, and colonies earned, in the name of free trade (like the Opium wars). Of course, not just Europeans, it was the first Indian industrialists (Tatas) which backed the East India Company during the opium wars, since they dealth in opium. Trade of humans generated the raw materials for the American industrial boom (African slaves picking cotton and tobacco in the US). The madness in Belgian Congo had a clear economic motive (getting and selling rubber). The US invaded Guatemala on behalf of a banana company.

Property relations and free trade, which is how you describe capitalism, are not a naturally-existing state of things. They are brought about, usually by force. For example generations of peasant tenants would farm the same land from generations of landlords, even though it was not in their name. A big part of industrial development in England was the conferring of private property rights on these lands, which meant the peasants could be evicted from their ancestral lands, forced to either die or go out looking for work, and they eventually formed the labour for the industrial revolution. Exchange has existed in every society including every feudal, socialist and communist one, the distinction of capitalist trade from previous eras was that it brought all of life into the sphere of property relations. Every house and every piece of land was now part of the market, for example. As I said, world trade itself was expanded at gunpoint.

So if capitalism is so violent, why are so many billions living and (to a decent extent) not starving today?
Well, I think it is neither capitalism nor communism but industrialisation that produces these deaths. Note that there was no widespread famine in the USSR after 1935 or in China after 1961. And that colonial empires were no longer needed by the middle of the 20th century.
 
Last edited:

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,127
If you use the same standards used to arrive at that (nonsensical) 100 million number, the capitalist number far surpasses that. The numbers themselves are very questionable, for example the book's co-authors themselves have questioned 100m. And in their comparison with Nazi deaths, the book doesn't count deaths in the second world war. The methodology is also controversial:
http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.html

Like others, Ryan reasonably selects as Exhibit A of the criminal indictment the Chinese famines of 1958-61, with a death toll of 25-40 million, he reports, a sizeable chunk of the 100 million corpses the "recording angels" attribute to "Communism" (whatever that is, but let us use the conventional term). The terrible atrocity fully merits the harsh condemnation it has received for many years, renewed here. It is, furthermore, proper to attribute the famine to Communism. That conclusion was established most authoritatively in the work of economist Amartya Sen, whose comparison of the Chinese famine to the record of democratic India received particular attention when he won the Nobel Prize a few years ago. Writing in the early 1980s, Sen observed that India had suffered no such famine. He attributed the India-China difference to India's "political system of adversarial journalism and opposition," while in contrast, China's totalitarian regime suffered from "misinformation" that undercut a serious response, and there was "little political pressure" from opposition groups and an informed public (Jean Dreze and Amartya Sen, Hunger and Public Action, 1989; they estimate deaths at 16.5 to 29.5 million).

The example stands as a dramatic "criminal indictment" of totalitarian Communism, exactly as Ryan writes. But before closing the book on the indictment we might want to turn to the other half of Sen's India-China comparison, which somehow never seems to surface despite the emphasis Sen placed on it. He observes that India and China had "similarities that were quite striking" when development planning began 50 years ago, including death rates. "But there is little doubt that as far as morbidity, mortality and longevity are concerned, China has a large and decisive lead over India" (in education and other social indicators as well). He estimates the excess of mortality in India over China to be close to 4 million a year: "India seems to manage to fill its cupboard with more skeletons every eight years than China put there in its years of shame," 1958-1961 (Dreze and Sen).

In both cases, the outcomes have to do with the "ideological predispositions" of the political systems: for China, relatively equitable distribution of medical resources, including rural health services, and public distribution of food, all lacking in India. This was before 1979, when "the downward trend in

About capitalist numbers:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/jan/20/historybooks.famine
In Late Victorian Holocausts, Mike Davis charts the unprecedented human suffering caused by a series of extreme climactic conditions in the final quarter of the 19th century. Drought and monsoons afflicted much of China, southern Africa, Brazil, Egypt and India. The death tolls were staggering: around 12m Chinese and over 6m Indians in 1876-1878 alone. The chief culprit, according to Davis, was not the weather, but European empires, with Japan and the US. Their imposition of free-market economics on the colonial world was tantamount to a "cultural genocide".

https://ajuntament.barcelona.cat/gabinetpostal/lestat-lliure-del-congo-un-genocidi-a-lombra/?lang=en
Leopold II ruled the Congo as his personal dominion from 1885 to 1908. During this period, the country was forced to endure the systematic exploitation of its natural resources, especially ivory and rubber.

Though the territory was governed from Brussels, the administrative capital was the port city of Boma, from where the massive exports of raw materials were shipped. Boma was the residence of the Governor General of the Congo, who was the direct representative of the king (in fact, Leopold II never once set foot in Africa). The state was divided into 14 districts which were administrated by commissioners who reported to the Governor General, and were appointed directly by the king. These functionaries sometimes acted as colonial administrators and trading agents, though their main function was to secure the largest possible amounts of ivory and rubber in the shortest possible time.

During the 1890s, and thanks to the widespread use of slaves, a more reliable transport network was built up, thus making it possible to export even more of the Congo’s natural resources. The construction of these infrastructures, all created exclusively for personal interests, resulted in the deaths of many workers of all ages. Their working days were long and hard, and required an enormous amount of physical effort. According to historical documentation, between five and 10 million people died as a result of the colonial exploitation under the rule and administration of King Leopold II and his functionaries.

https://www.history.com/news/native-americans-genocide-united-states
From the time Europeans arrived on American shores, the frontier—the edge territory between white man’s civilization and the untamed natural world—became a shared space of vast, clashing differences that led the U.S. government to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians, the most of any country in the world against its indigenous people. By the close of the Indian Wars in the late 19th century, fewer than 238,000 indigenous people remained, a sharp decline from the estimated 5 million to 15 million living in North America when Columbus arrived in 1492.

Away from these distant colonies, the famine in Ireland killed an eighth of the population, something Mao's obsession of steel and sparrows couldn't come close to matching, and not even the sadism, brutality, and irrationality of Pol Pot can match what happened in Congo (half the population).

Is it fair to blame capitalism for these deaths?

Yes. Colonisation was a natural by-product of capitalism. Hence, nearly all successful capitalist countries - Britain, France, Germany, Holland, and Japan had or tried to have a colonial empire. Portugal had a colonial empire without (mostly) being an industrial capitalist country, but their loot was the input for other capitalist countries. The US was the exception since it never had a formal empire, their colonisation happened in their own backyard, into the "empty" land (in which millions lived and resources worth much more than those lives could be found).

And there is a reason why the capitalist revolution spurred colonial expansion. New factories needed raw materials and markets for their outputs. Trade of commodities bought or stolen from the colonies was done by private stock-market companies (like the East India Company, which ran India till 1857, and pioneered many of the features of corporations today; the Dutch East India Company did the world's first IPO). Invasions and coups were carried out, and colonies earned, in the name of free trade (like the Opium wars). Of course, not just Europeans, it was the first Indian industrialists (Tatas) which backed the East India Company during the opium wars, since they dealth in opium. Trade of humans generated the raw materials for the American industrial boom (African slaves picking cotton and tobacco in the US). The madness in Belgian Congo had a clear economic motive (getting and selling rubber). The US invaded Guatemala on behalf of a banana company.

Property relations and free trade, which is how you describe capitalism, are not a naturally-existing state of things. They are brought about, usually by force. For example generations of peasant tenants would farm the same land from generations of landlords, even though it was not in their name. A big part of industrial development in England was the conferring of private property rights on these lands, which meant the peasants could be evicted from their ancestral lands, forced to either die or go out looking for work, and they eventually formed the labour for the industrial revolution. Exchange has existed in every society including every feudal, socialist and communist one, the distinction of capitalist trade from previous eras was that it brought all of life into the sphere of property relations. Every house and every piece of land was now part of the market, for example. As I said, world trade itself was expanded at gunpoint.

So if capitalism is so violent, why are so many billions living and (to a decent extent) not starving today?
Well, I think it is neither capitalism nor communism but industrialisation that produces these deaths. Note that there was no widespread famine in the USSR after 1935 or in China after 1961. And that colonial empires were no longer needed by the middle of the 20th century.
That's a long-ass post which I don't have wits to reply to. I think this is the wrong thread for this discussion though.
 

berbatrick

Renaissance Man
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
21,634
When I struggle with pronouncing my (white) student Camille's name correctly, that's actually racism, and when my parents named me by copying a name they liked, they were giving me an ethnic(??) gift(???).

 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,127
If you use the same standards used to arrive at that (nonsensical) 100 million number, the capitalist number far surpasses that. The numbers themselves are very questionable, for example the book's co-authors themselves have questioned 100m. And in their comparison with Nazi deaths, the book doesn't count deaths in the second world war. The methodology is also controversial:
http://www.spectrezine.org/global/chomsky.html

Like others, Ryan reasonably selects as Exhibit A of the criminal indictment the Chinese famines of 1958-61, with a death toll of 25-40 million, he reports, a sizeable chunk of the 100 million corpses the "recording angels" attribute to "Communism" (whatever that is, but let us use the conventional term). The terrible atrocity fully merits the harsh condemnation it has received for many years, renewed here. It is, furthermore, proper to attribute the famine to Communism. That conclusion was established most authoritatively in the work of economist Amartya Sen, whose comparison of the Chinese famine to the record of democratic India received particular attention when he won the Nobel Prize a few years ago. Writing in the early 1980s, Sen observed that India had suffered no such famine. He attributed the India-China difference to India's "political system of adversarial journalism and opposition," while in contrast, China's totalitarian regime suffered from "misinformation" that undercut a serious response, and there was "little political pressure" from opposition groups and an informed public (Jean Dreze and Amartya Sen, Hunger and Public Action, 1989; they estimate deaths at 16.5 to 29.5 million).

The example stands as a dramatic "criminal indictment" of totalitarian Communism, exactly as Ryan writes. But before closing the book on the indictment we might want to turn to the other half of Sen's India-China comparison, which somehow never seems to surface despite the emphasis Sen placed on it. He observes that India and China had "similarities that were quite striking" when development planning began 50 years ago, including death rates. "But there is little doubt that as far as morbidity, mortality and longevity are concerned, China has a large and decisive lead over India" (in education and other social indicators as well). He estimates the excess of mortality in India over China to be close to 4 million a year: "India seems to manage to fill its cupboard with more skeletons every eight years than China put there in its years of shame," 1958-1961 (Dreze and Sen).

In both cases, the outcomes have to do with the "ideological predispositions" of the political systems: for China, relatively equitable distribution of medical resources, including rural health services, and public distribution of food, all lacking in India. This was before 1979, when "the downward trend in

About capitalist numbers:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/jan/20/historybooks.famine
In Late Victorian Holocausts, Mike Davis charts the unprecedented human suffering caused by a series of extreme climactic conditions in the final quarter of the 19th century. Drought and monsoons afflicted much of China, southern Africa, Brazil, Egypt and India. The death tolls were staggering: around 12m Chinese and over 6m Indians in 1876-1878 alone. The chief culprit, according to Davis, was not the weather, but European empires, with Japan and the US. Their imposition of free-market economics on the colonial world was tantamount to a "cultural genocide".

https://ajuntament.barcelona.cat/gabinetpostal/lestat-lliure-del-congo-un-genocidi-a-lombra/?lang=en
Leopold II ruled the Congo as his personal dominion from 1885 to 1908. During this period, the country was forced to endure the systematic exploitation of its natural resources, especially ivory and rubber.

Though the territory was governed from Brussels, the administrative capital was the port city of Boma, from where the massive exports of raw materials were shipped. Boma was the residence of the Governor General of the Congo, who was the direct representative of the king (in fact, Leopold II never once set foot in Africa). The state was divided into 14 districts which were administrated by commissioners who reported to the Governor General, and were appointed directly by the king. These functionaries sometimes acted as colonial administrators and trading agents, though their main function was to secure the largest possible amounts of ivory and rubber in the shortest possible time.

During the 1890s, and thanks to the widespread use of slaves, a more reliable transport network was built up, thus making it possible to export even more of the Congo’s natural resources. The construction of these infrastructures, all created exclusively for personal interests, resulted in the deaths of many workers of all ages. Their working days were long and hard, and required an enormous amount of physical effort. According to historical documentation, between five and 10 million people died as a result of the colonial exploitation under the rule and administration of King Leopold II and his functionaries.

https://www.history.com/news/native-americans-genocide-united-states
From the time Europeans arrived on American shores, the frontier—the edge territory between white man’s civilization and the untamed natural world—became a shared space of vast, clashing differences that led the U.S. government to authorize over 1,500 wars, attacks and raids on Indians, the most of any country in the world against its indigenous people. By the close of the Indian Wars in the late 19th century, fewer than 238,000 indigenous people remained, a sharp decline from the estimated 5 million to 15 million living in North America when Columbus arrived in 1492.

Away from these distant colonies, the famine in Ireland killed an eighth of the population, something Mao's obsession of steel and sparrows couldn't come close to matching, and not even the sadism, brutality, and irrationality of Pol Pot can match what happened in Congo (half the population).

Is it fair to blame capitalism for these deaths?

Yes. Colonisation was a natural by-product of capitalism. Hence, nearly all successful capitalist countries - Britain, France, Germany, Holland, and Japan had or tried to have a colonial empire. Portugal had a colonial empire without (mostly) being an industrial capitalist country, but their loot was the input for other capitalist countries. The US was the exception since it never had a formal empire, their colonisation happened in their own backyard, into the "empty" land (in which millions lived and resources worth much more than those lives could be found).

And there is a reason why the capitalist revolution spurred colonial expansion. New factories needed raw materials and markets for their outputs. Trade of commodities bought or stolen from the colonies was done by private stock-market companies (like the East India Company, which ran India till 1857, and pioneered many of the features of corporations today; the Dutch East India Company did the world's first IPO). Invasions and coups were carried out, and colonies earned, in the name of free trade (like the Opium wars). Of course, not just Europeans, it was the first Indian industrialists (Tatas) which backed the East India Company during the opium wars, since they dealth in opium. Trade of humans generated the raw materials for the American industrial boom (African slaves picking cotton and tobacco in the US). The madness in Belgian Congo had a clear economic motive (getting and selling rubber). The US invaded Guatemala on behalf of a banana company.

Property relations and free trade, which is how you describe capitalism, are not a naturally-existing state of things. They are brought about, usually by force. For example generations of peasant tenants would farm the same land from generations of landlords, even though it was not in their name. A big part of industrial development in England was the conferring of private property rights on these lands, which meant the peasants could be evicted from their ancestral lands, forced to either die or go out looking for work, and they eventually formed the labour for the industrial revolution. Exchange has existed in every society including every feudal, socialist and communist one, the distinction of capitalist trade from previous eras was that it brought all of life into the sphere of property relations. Every house and every piece of land was now part of the market, for example. As I said, world trade itself was expanded at gunpoint.

So if capitalism is so violent, why are so many billions living and (to a decent extent) not starving today?
Well, I think it is neither capitalism nor communism but industrialisation that produces these deaths. Note that there was no widespread famine in the USSR after 1935 or in China after 1961. And that colonial empires were no longer needed by the middle of the 20th century.
Would just like to add that I think this is a good post, I just don't have the brain power for much of a reponse. I don't necessarily disagree with it. When I thought about a more apppropiate thread, I thought of this one

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/“socialism”-vs-“capitalism”-debate.453316/

Or perhaps starting a new one thread like "Capitalism" or "Capitalism vs the alternatives."

Perhaps this would be an interesting book to read on the subject(for myself at least)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_noir_du_capitalisme
 
Last edited:

Olly Gunnar Solskjær

Marxist bacon-hating kebab-dodging Tinder rascal
Scout
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
36,895
Location
dreams can't be buy
Videos From Right-Wing Site That Preaches 'The Left Ruins Everything' Assigned In Ohio School

An Ohio public school has been giving students extra credit for watching videos from PragerU, a right-wing website that produces clips of talking heads such as Candace Owens and Ben Shapiro discussing conservative viewpoints, HuffPost has learned.

The PragerU videos — with titles such as “Build the Wall,” “Why the Right Was Right” and “The Left Ruins Everything” — were assigned to a 10th-grade history class at Maumee High School, along with a series of questions about the videos’ “most important messages.”

The assignment came at the same time that the website has tried to gain further influence in K-12 classrooms. Earlier this month, the organization launched a program directly aimed at parents and educators, complete with study guides with sections such as “Conservatives Are the Real Environmentalists” and “The Ferguson Lie,” based on a HuffPost review of the materials.


More at the link: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...prageru_n_5f889a29c5b6e9e76fbb6db8?ri18n=true
 

Marcosdeto

Guess who's back?
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
49,983
Location
Buenos Aires - Argentina
Videos From Right-Wing Site That Preaches 'The Left Ruins Everything' Assigned In Ohio School

An Ohio public school has been giving students extra credit for watching videos from PragerU, a right-wing website that produces clips of talking heads such as Candace Owens and Ben Shapiro discussing conservative viewpoints, HuffPost has learned.

The PragerU videos — with titles such as “Build the Wall,” “Why the Right Was Right” and “The Left Ruins Everything” — were assigned to a 10th-grade history class at Maumee High School, along with a series of questions about the videos’ “most important messages.”

The assignment came at the same time that the website has tried to gain further influence in K-12 classrooms. Earlier this month, the organization launched a program directly aimed at parents and educators, complete with study guides with sections such as “Conservatives Are the Real Environmentalists” and “The Ferguson Lie,” based on a HuffPost review of the materials.


More at the link: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...prageru_n_5f889a29c5b6e9e76fbb6db8?ri18n=true
that's a fecking disgrace

but the bit "Conservatives Are the Real Environmentalists” made me laugh so hard that i farted
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,127
I didn't know we had a "pronouns day".
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,628
Location
The Zone
The users stuff is interesting(Same applies in the US as well from the research I've seen)

As for the view of voters, doesn't voting patterns go against this study ?

It's well and good for the British public to say they are in the centre or agree on issues such as climate change but its useless when 40% are voting for far right projects such as Brexit and a Tory government that talks about the danger of lefty lawyers and cultural Marxists. People will almost all the time see themselves as "centre ground" no matter what their political actions are.
(ideology, sniff sniff and so on).
 
Last edited:

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
11,127
The feminists are really not happy with women being referred to as people who menustrate or birthing people by medical agencies. I guess it might be one of the things giving rise to "Terfness".