That's when we really get going.
The dangerous logic in saying "Ole needs to finish the season"
- Thread starter VP89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
This latest theme from some people of “SAF took time so we should give Ole more time too” is so unbelievably lazy and stupid it honestly beggars belief that anyone can actually genuinely think it’s a good point.
Don't try to find any logic in it. Neville is a hypocrite and a moron. Unless one wants to experience flirting with lower half table finish, there is absolutely no other reason for Ole to continue.
Stop insulting Sir Alex. He was already one of the best manager in the UK when he took the job and it was his reputation that gave him so much time.
Getting Cardiff relegated isn't anywhere near the job it is to win the league against Celtic and Rangers with Aberdeen.
Fact is Ole isn't anywhere near good enough to manage most championship teams and giving him another 10 years like people want isn't going to help him become good enough to manage us.
Why we haven't already pulled the trigger I don't know. He should have been gone in the hours after the match... it looks as though he's going to stay. fecking brainless decision.
The issue isn't that we're hamstrung by sentimentality. Yes there will be fans who cling on to the "United Way" or whatever, but it's obvious to any rational being we're beyond that here. We're hamstrung by a total disconnect between how the club is run as a business and as a football club.
There are two boards, the first for football with all the people you'd expect on there like Sir Alex etc that has zero power beyond a potential deferential ear from a Glazer (conjecture). Then there is the actual board that makes significant decisions in how the club operates. The latter has very successfully ensured that the quality of football on the pitch does very little in the medium term to impact the bottom line of the club. They clearly want that to widen further, hence their key role for the Super League.
Ole is the perfect manager for them - cheap(er) and effectively owes his loyalty to the club because we've picked him out of obscurity (relatively speaking, clearly people knew who he was before he became United manger). Where the club have chosen to invest is also incredibly telling. We have spent a lot of money on a lot of footballers, however pretty much all of them came with an incredible off-pitch profile that the club has looked to leverage from day one. Where profiles don't matter, such as coaching, we have got a group of amateurs. Fletcher and Carrick are in their first ever jobs and McKenna got promoted from the youth team. Phelan is the only one with any pedigree and arguably he isn't exactly a modern tactician (although, again, I have no idea - just based on how we played under SAF with Phelan). When you sack a manager you don't just get rid of one person, but you replace an entire team. Again, by bringing Ole in they saved loads of money because they could just promote from within. That £50m for Pochettino at the time plus bringing his entire staff over vs continuing with Ole as caretaker was an obvious choice for the board.
Then there is infrastructure. Old Trafford falling down is clear to all match going fans, but it also extends to Carrington. Any top coach will want to know what the plans are for improving the facilities and investment beyond the actual squad. Can't imagine Zidane or ten Hag or whoever looks at United and goes "that's a comfortable club to get the best out of a group of players". There is no "project" at United beyond attempting to resurrect a fallen giant whilst battling a number of vested interests within.
Arguably, there is no pressure from the board to sack Ole when it comes down to spreadsheets and numbers. When he fails to reach top 4 or if we're actually in danger of getting relegated (anything is possible), they'll reluctantly get rid. Long term, it's incredibly unsustainable. However, that doesn't matter to owners who may well be thinking of an exit in the next 10-15 years. If Ole does go this side of Christmas, I will be surprised. Like others have said, it'll come down to whether we miss out on specific sponsorship criteria.
There are two boards, the first for football with all the people you'd expect on there like Sir Alex etc that has zero power beyond a potential deferential ear from a Glazer (conjecture). Then there is the actual board that makes significant decisions in how the club operates. The latter has very successfully ensured that the quality of football on the pitch does very little in the medium term to impact the bottom line of the club. They clearly want that to widen further, hence their key role for the Super League.
Ole is the perfect manager for them - cheap(er) and effectively owes his loyalty to the club because we've picked him out of obscurity (relatively speaking, clearly people knew who he was before he became United manger). Where the club have chosen to invest is also incredibly telling. We have spent a lot of money on a lot of footballers, however pretty much all of them came with an incredible off-pitch profile that the club has looked to leverage from day one. Where profiles don't matter, such as coaching, we have got a group of amateurs. Fletcher and Carrick are in their first ever jobs and McKenna got promoted from the youth team. Phelan is the only one with any pedigree and arguably he isn't exactly a modern tactician (although, again, I have no idea - just based on how we played under SAF with Phelan). When you sack a manager you don't just get rid of one person, but you replace an entire team. Again, by bringing Ole in they saved loads of money because they could just promote from within. That £50m for Pochettino at the time plus bringing his entire staff over vs continuing with Ole as caretaker was an obvious choice for the board.
Then there is infrastructure. Old Trafford falling down is clear to all match going fans, but it also extends to Carrington. Any top coach will want to know what the plans are for improving the facilities and investment beyond the actual squad. Can't imagine Zidane or ten Hag or whoever looks at United and goes "that's a comfortable club to get the best out of a group of players". There is no "project" at United beyond attempting to resurrect a fallen giant whilst battling a number of vested interests within.
Arguably, there is no pressure from the board to sack Ole when it comes down to spreadsheets and numbers. When he fails to reach top 4 or if we're actually in danger of getting relegated (anything is possible), they'll reluctantly get rid. Long term, it's incredibly unsustainable. However, that doesn't matter to owners who may well be thinking of an exit in the next 10-15 years. If Ole does go this side of Christmas, I will be surprised. Like others have said, it'll come down to whether we miss out on specific sponsorship criteria.
He should have been sacked already. We are clearly keeping him however, which leaves me so angry. How can we keep him after that? And let's not forget this isn't a one off, it's off the back of some utterly dire performances.
I've never heard the crowd so toxic, and don't forget there were boos in midweek but we managed to turn that around but that massively papered over the cracks
No wonder he's always grinning imagine being so out of your depth as Manchester United manager and knowing you can keep your job despite being so far out of your depth and knowing even if you serve up such an utterly trash, spineless, pathetic performance BY YOUR BITTER RIVALS you can still keep your job.... let's not forget Liverpool took their foot off the gas it could have been more
The fact he's still here is making me even crosser. He is wasting this squad, and I still believe if we were ruthless like Chelsea were with Lampard, who was also a club legend, but they didn't let sentimentality skew their judgement, we could still win something this season. Just why is he still here?
I've never heard the crowd so toxic, and don't forget there were boos in midweek but we managed to turn that around but that massively papered over the cracks
No wonder he's always grinning imagine being so out of your depth as Manchester United manager and knowing you can keep your job despite being so far out of your depth and knowing even if you serve up such an utterly trash, spineless, pathetic performance BY YOUR BITTER RIVALS you can still keep your job.... let's not forget Liverpool took their foot off the gas it could have been more
The fact he's still here is making me even crosser. He is wasting this squad, and I still believe if we were ruthless like Chelsea were with Lampard, who was also a club legend, but they didn't let sentimentality skew their judgement, we could still win something this season. Just why is he still here?
The danger in letting Ole finish the season is that we could go back to the point we were in when he took over of needing drastic changes.
There’s a possibility we could be without Champions League football which would make player recruitment more difficult and also give us some problems in the dressing room with some of the big players possibly wanting to leave.
For sure we will have a big midfield rebuild required as Pogba would leave on a free, VDB will have sounded out a move and Matic will need to be moved on.
And there is also a cull required of our attacking options:
Ronaldo, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho, Cavani, Martial, Lingard, Mata (and Bruno) is too many for 3 positions.
It’s difficult for a new manager to come in next summer and make decisions on these issues, without having any time to work with the players, and then to get the required activity done in the transfer window (especially with how ponderous we are).
So if we get this wrong we could be staring at another season or two of pain.
If the right manager was available to come in now, he could at least start to bed in his ideas and structure and get through to the summer with a clear idea of the 1 or 2 players that we need to take us on.
There’s a possibility we could be without Champions League football which would make player recruitment more difficult and also give us some problems in the dressing room with some of the big players possibly wanting to leave.
For sure we will have a big midfield rebuild required as Pogba would leave on a free, VDB will have sounded out a move and Matic will need to be moved on.
And there is also a cull required of our attacking options:
Ronaldo, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho, Cavani, Martial, Lingard, Mata (and Bruno) is too many for 3 positions.
It’s difficult for a new manager to come in next summer and make decisions on these issues, without having any time to work with the players, and then to get the required activity done in the transfer window (especially with how ponderous we are).
So if we get this wrong we could be staring at another season or two of pain.
If the right manager was available to come in now, he could at least start to bed in his ideas and structure and get through to the summer with a clear idea of the 1 or 2 players that we need to take us on.
With a perfectly salvageable season then in complete ruins? Why do so many on here want to write off an entire season? The damage that will do in the post-Ole period will undo everything some people believe he has done for us in his positive column.
Exactly. This is for me a major point. If he wants to leave a positive legacy, he's taking a big risk hanging on through problems he's not able to solve.
I don't think Conte is someone we should be after. Zidane maybe. Tuchel was a much more obvious choice though.
I agree and share your concerns. I thought that Scholes was right and it would be wisest to let him sit out the season while the club scouted out and arranged for a new manager to take over next season, but its pretty clear hes lost the dressing room and if we stick with him and this terrible run continues, its going to be way more damaging for the club than any interim manager can be
What Ole has done is make United a more attractive proposition for a top manager than we have been at any other point post-SAF.
He’s taken the squad from
Smalling, Rojo, Young, Valencia, Darmian, Fellaini, Pereira, Mata, Sanchez
to
Maguire, Varane, AWB, VDB, Bruno, Greenwood, Sancho, Cavani, Ronaldo.
It’s now the kind of squad that a new manager has when they walk in at Chelsea. Now, just for this moment, we probably need to act like Chelsea for once and get a top drawer manager in and then give that man the time to take us to the top.
He’s taken the squad from
Smalling, Rojo, Young, Valencia, Darmian, Fellaini, Pereira, Mata, Sanchez
to
Maguire, Varane, AWB, VDB, Bruno, Greenwood, Sancho, Cavani, Ronaldo.
It’s now the kind of squad that a new manager has when they walk in at Chelsea. Now, just for this moment, we probably need to act like Chelsea for once and get a top drawer manager in and then give that man the time to take us to the top.
Only have to look at getitng rid of Lampard, and bringing in Tuchel did for Chelsea.
So, a first post on here. A lot to say but I will keep this brief.
If you want some good and unbiased analysis, some great articles in the Guardian in recent weeks (and today) on how the problems start at the top with the owners, then the muppets they install to run the club. They are not football people and dont understand what it takes to succeed. The Glazers only care about profits and share price, hence the Ronaldo signing and then they make millions when the share price pops. We are becoming a nostalgia club trading on history. Glazers dont care if we never win another trophy, their initial business plan assumed top 4 and a good cup run, anything else just a bonus. This is the fundamental problem we face.
I understand the frustration of fans, many of whom understand these problems but want to be seen as real supporters who put the club first. But the obsessive championing of Ole, a second tier manager who has never (and never will) win a major trophy is beyond me. He has no vision of hwo to play or to win, the absolute shambles yesterday demonstrated that. To other clubs and the outside world Utd are just a joke club, and the longer we stick with Ole the more the joke is on the fans who continue to back him. If we need to take Conte to stabilise the club so be it, at least a manager with recent pedigree who is not in a downward spiral like MOurinho or well over the hill like LVG. Ten Hag would be great but I am not sure he is attainable right now.
Yes Ole has made some progress, though after the terrible managerial appointments before him (whch is on Glazers and Woodward), that was not too hard. He seems an OK man manager but close to zero vision or tactical nous. His strategy is basicaly assemble some great players and let them play. Might have worked 10-15 years ago, but football has evolved since then. The absolute shambles from the whole team yesterday has to be the final straw. Personally I am disappointed he chose not to resign, for me my respect for him is going. Sitting passively as we ship 5 goals to Liverpool says it all. We clearly lack effective coaches, despite all those claiming otherwise. Bottom line we see on the pitch what one would expect with a bunch of top players and a second rate manager and very inexperienced coaches. HE signs Sancho but has no idea what to do woth him, same with VDB. The cr@p about VDB being 3rd choice is a pathetic smokescreen. There is no reason to expect improvement, beyond blind hope.
The interviews from Schweinsteiger, a true Utd fan, exposed all the bull about time and projects. I defer to one of the leading players of his generation, who has no personal allegiance to Ole.
If you want some good and unbiased analysis, some great articles in the Guardian in recent weeks (and today) on how the problems start at the top with the owners, then the muppets they install to run the club. They are not football people and dont understand what it takes to succeed. The Glazers only care about profits and share price, hence the Ronaldo signing and then they make millions when the share price pops. We are becoming a nostalgia club trading on history. Glazers dont care if we never win another trophy, their initial business plan assumed top 4 and a good cup run, anything else just a bonus. This is the fundamental problem we face.
I understand the frustration of fans, many of whom understand these problems but want to be seen as real supporters who put the club first. But the obsessive championing of Ole, a second tier manager who has never (and never will) win a major trophy is beyond me. He has no vision of hwo to play or to win, the absolute shambles yesterday demonstrated that. To other clubs and the outside world Utd are just a joke club, and the longer we stick with Ole the more the joke is on the fans who continue to back him. If we need to take Conte to stabilise the club so be it, at least a manager with recent pedigree who is not in a downward spiral like MOurinho or well over the hill like LVG. Ten Hag would be great but I am not sure he is attainable right now.
Yes Ole has made some progress, though after the terrible managerial appointments before him (whch is on Glazers and Woodward), that was not too hard. He seems an OK man manager but close to zero vision or tactical nous. His strategy is basicaly assemble some great players and let them play. Might have worked 10-15 years ago, but football has evolved since then. The absolute shambles from the whole team yesterday has to be the final straw. Personally I am disappointed he chose not to resign, for me my respect for him is going. Sitting passively as we ship 5 goals to Liverpool says it all. We clearly lack effective coaches, despite all those claiming otherwise. Bottom line we see on the pitch what one would expect with a bunch of top players and a second rate manager and very inexperienced coaches. HE signs Sancho but has no idea what to do woth him, same with VDB. The cr@p about VDB being 3rd choice is a pathetic smokescreen. There is no reason to expect improvement, beyond blind hope.
The interviews from Schweinsteiger, a true Utd fan, exposed all the bull about time and projects. I defer to one of the leading players of his generation, who has no personal allegiance to Ole.
The overarching point, however, is whatever you think he has done well in terms of recruitment will count for nothing if those players have had enough and are ready to find another club come the summer. Then we're back to square one with a more disillusioned board who will see no good reason to pump more and more money into the club after the last influx of players reaped effectively a net negative.
Some don't seem to grasp how utterly shambolic and dire the situation is and are so used to us ambling along that they are not considering the bigger picture. This is a title-challenging squad, right now, in the right hands, and words to the contrary simply do not cut it. We could do with a better midfield, but there are managers out there who would have this exact lot right up there, in all competitions, come the end of the season.
We are not a bunch of plucky underdogs who are lucky to have a seat at the table; we have spent hundreds of millions and assembled a squad that is rightly expected to deliver; this is a legitimately strong squad being massively, massively under-utilised to the point of farce.
Ole does not even have the scope to try something different in midfield than a pairing that fail him time and time and (literally) time again. There's no suggestion of improvement or a turnaround, or even a plan. Other managers would have a run a gamut, and run it properly, even if off the cuff, they would not have simply buried their head in the sand and have blind hope the exact same run out would have better outcomes the next go round just because the players are amped up to be more passionate.
I find the Ole in/out wars utterly tedious, with both extremes being bad for the site; what I also find galling is that Manchester United, as a club, has been put completely to the wayside whilst this supposed civil war of inanity warbles on. The bottom line is that the manager is out of his depth and it is hurting the club in the now, and it will invariably hurt us in the future if the fallout from a total disaster of a season is not reined in.
Bayern Munich sacked 'one of their own' in Niko Kovac, after a 5-1 hammering that was the culmination of a disastrous managerial descent to the point it was the only solution. A manager who had done far more for them than Ole has for us.
This is what a former player, that understood the fabric of the club and how far off he was from that as its manager said when the time came:
In a statement released on Sunday, Bayern said the decision was by mutual agreement, with Kovac adding: "I think this is the right decision for the club at the moment. The results, and also the way we last played, made me come to that decision."
If Ole believes he can turn it around, or, if we want to be cynical and believe he's waiting to be paid off via the sack, there's a point where the club itself has to look out for its own interests, and if we had footballing people in charge, the decision would have already been made.
"The performance of our team in recent weeks and the results have shown that there was a need for action," Bayern CEO Karl-Heinz Rummenigge said in a statement.
"I had an open and serious conversation with Niko on this basis on Sunday, with the consensual result that Niko is no longer coach of Bayern."
Incidentally, they [Bayern] then went on to win the league that same season because they were swift and decisive and didn't just write off an entire campaign because the wrong man was at the helm. Never mind oil clubs and the rights and wrongs of what they do - Bayern are seen as a 'proper footballing club' for how they run and how their decisions are all for the greater good of the club. We have absolutely no excuse to not be looking beyond any one single manager named Alex Ferguson (so much credit in the bank, he practically owned it), and do right by the club.
The logic just makes no business sense even if you think Solskjaer should stay. Gary Neville for example is saying the board need to come out this week and either effectively sack him or saying he's our guy for the next 6-8 months regardless. Nobody runs a football club like that, no board is going to come out and just say the manager's job is safe for 6-8 months no matter what, it defies all business logic. What happens then if you lose your next 5 games?
In reality unless the board are sacking him, there's no need for them to say anything.
In reality unless the board are sacking him, there's no need for them to say anything.
We go another season without a trophy and risk losing many of our best players.
The players themselves are already speaking about tactics not being good enough. That with the crowd reaction and i can't imagine the players are in a position to give it time.
They might like Ole but if they don't think his ideas are upto scratch then you've got an atmosphere that isn't conductive to a good season.
They might like Ole but if they don't think his ideas are upto scratch then you've got an atmosphere that isn't conductive to a good season.
what the actual feck is that. No matter how much I thought he might win something (and I don’t) why would anyone take that “gamble”. What the feck is even the gamble. “Hey mate, so either there’s a chance we arbitrarily murder your family based on a football result, or the world progresses as normal and you have nothing to with us whatsoever. Sooo are you interested or what?”
Lampard needs to finish the season. If this was Chelsea's board thinking, they wouldn't have 2 Champions Leagues now. And wouldn't be top of PL now.
It's clear that letting Ole finish the season isn't on the table. Performances were always rough under Ole but he delivered fairly consistent results. Those results are no longer there. His time here is done.