The Daredevil Draft R1 | P-nut vs Isotope

[GodShaveTheQueen]

-------------------------------------- P-NUT--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISOTOPE-----------------------------------

P-nut's write up:

Coach/motivator: Cantona

Basic diamond set up,

Defence

The 2 best attacking full backs of the past 10 years.
Stopper/sweeper duo in Santamaria and Carvalho

Midfield

Pirlo sat deep to dictate play with 3 energetic midfielders surrounding him
Gerrard on the right where he can drift wide and support Alves.
Davids on the right as the more defensive covering for Marcelo
Charlton as the key man to make everything come together, more on him later

Attack

The 2 Mullers. Thomas will float around using his game IQ to support attacks where he is most needed.
Gerd to be the fox in the box finishing off anything coming his way.

The whole idea of this draft was to build around Charlton to begin with, as he often gets overlooked when it comes to draft games and the impact he can make.

I think he's perfect for the modern day diamond in that he's extremely hard working, creative and can score a bucket load when needed. Here he can drift into his preferred left channel, as he's got Davids on that side so there isn't too much congestion when Marcelo gets forward.

Isotope's write up:

We will play exciting football, with a team glittered with creativity and goals from many sources. From defence to attack, every player in the team has high composure and good skill with the ball.

In attack, Cruyff fluidly interchange position with the deadly but hardworker Lewandowski and Barcelona legend Kubala.

Goals
To answer “where will the goals come from”, plenty of proven goalscorers in this Team:

R. Lewandowski - 221 goals in 240 games with 45 goals in 50 European games in the last 5 seasons.
Johan Cruyff – 295 goals in 391 games in his 11 best years.
Socrates – 110 goals in 180 games (1980-1983)
Kubala – 131 goals in 181 games with Barcelona.

With Cruyff as the team focal creator, he’s supported by Falcao – Socrates – Duncan Edwards midfield axis that guarantee Cruyff to get plenty of ball on his feet. Ball from Doctor Socrates will maximize Cruyff ability as goalscorer.

Defence
The team also equipped with strong defence. Marshalled by Bobby Moore the Captain, he partners Barry Hulshoff in sweeper – stopper role that they’re best at. On their side are energetic offensive full-backs Benarrivo and Kaltz. Although famous for their attacking prowess, these fullbacks are experienced winners and very good at defending also; proving their tactical awareness. Peter Shilton that won two European trophies (wow) guards between the poles.

Defence is also protected by Duncan Edwards (who can operate as CB) and Falcao.

Footnote: Barry Hulshoff
Hulshoff was part of the Ajax’s golden years in the early 70s. The centerback was a pillar in the very successful Amsterdam team. The career highlight was winning the Europan Cup three times: 1971, 1972 and 1973, while conceded none on the three Finals.

More than just an excellent stopper, as part of Total Football, he’s also comfortable passing from the back or scoring at the other end. In just 14 international caps, he scored 6 goals for Netherlands. There was argument that the Dutch might have won 1974 World Cup, if only he was not injured before Final the tournament.

Against Muller. In 1972/73 European Cup QF, Ajax’s Hulshoff met Bayern’s Muller in 2-leg ties. The round ended 5-2 to Ajax, where Muller only scored 1, after Ajax already led 5-1 in aggregate.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @P-Nut @Isotope

 

[Synco]

Müller - Müller - Charlton

 

[Gio]

Gorgeous diamond @P-Nut

 

[P-Nut]

Good luck @Isotope

Gorgeous diamond @P-Nut

Cheers, I'd love to see what the right side of my team could have done in an attacking sense, seems like a perfect balance with Gerrards passing range, Mullers movement and Dani Alves marauding down that flank, it would have the potential for some seriously nice football.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Peak years for Gerrard?

 

[P-Nut]

Peak years for Gerrard?

Probably 04/05 to 06/07. I want the more attacking dynamic Gerrard rather than when he became too tied down playing as part of the 2.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Socrates and Pirlo face each other two games in a row and both games in different drafts. Not sure if it's a first, but probably doesn't happen often.

 

[Enigma_87]

I thought Iso had one of the best teams in the draft initially and placed him in my top 3. Was going with him pretty much regardless of the opposition and then I saw P-nuts diamond

Remove the scouse cnut and that team is near perfection.

 

[Himannv]

Charlton vs Edwards should be an interesting prospect.

Lovely diamond and two great teams.

 

[harms]

It's obviously almost impossible to have a strong and detailed opinion on Edwards, but I certainly prefer him as a left half-back with a license to go forward. A deepest role in a midfield three (four?) with a clear-cut number 10 and an expansive box-to-box isn't really ideal if you want to make the best use of Edwards.

I mean, look at his legendary goal against Germany, for example:

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Agreed, two really well executed teams. I usually wouldn't mind Gerrard as the RCM, but against Cruyff on that flank, would have preferred a more defensive minded side midfielder.

Charlton on the other hand looks tailor made for a diamond involving Pirlo.

Giving this to Iso by the slightest of margins as I don't see too much resistance to Cruyff on that side.

 

[Isotope]

Great team, P-Nut. There's a lot of thinking behind crafting it.

Just a side note. With Kubala and Socrates attacking that right side , Marcelo and Santamaria will be a busy bee. Can they contain them? Davids has to stay back covering them to prevent two-on-two.

Also said it on write up, Hulshoff had a good record against Muller. "In 1972/73 European Cup QF, Ajax’s Hulshoff met Bayern’s Muller in 2-leg ties. The round ended 5-2 to Ajax, where Muller only scored 1, after Ajax already led 5-1 in aggregate."

 

[Isotope]

It's obviously almost impossible to have a strong and detailed opinion on Edwards, but I certainly prefer him as a left half-back with a license to go forward. A deepest role in a midfield three (four?) with a clear-cut number 10 and an expansive box-to-box isn't really ideal if you want to make the best use of Edwards.

I mean, look at his legendary goal against Germany, for example:

Edwards had been playing as DM and even CB, showing his defensive capabilities. He's not a pure Makelele. It's like saying Beckenbauer at back 4 is limiting his full capabilities, preventing him going forward.

They way I see it, my team will be attacking, and P-Nut will be defending. Thus it's useful to have a DM that can also score.

 

[Isotope]

Gerrard in midfield is the indiscipline one. I'm not sure he's at home at this diamond formation.

 

[Physiocrat]

Gone Iso by a slim margin. I think he will have more of the ball so Marcelo and Alves will have to do more defending than they would ideally like which is a problem against Cruyff and Kubala. I do though really like P-Nut's diamond and rated it highly in the seeds.

 

[harms]

Edwards had been playing as DM and even CB, showing his defensive capabilities. He's not a pure Makelele. It's like saying Beckenbauer at back 4 is limiting his full capabilities, preventing him going forward.

I think @GodShaveTheQueen has said something about his time as a center back – if I remember correctly, I think he had said that he had never played as a center back aside from that game against Villa. Not sure about his games as a DM, considering that it was Blanchflower who had played in such a position at the time – Edwards used to play as a half back which was basically a box-to-box role.

There were some excellent quotes from his own book (yes, he had wrote a book) on his own role as a wing-half and how to play it, but I can't find it anywhere, the article where I think I saw it is not available anymore. Anyway, the point still stands – the beauty of Edwards was his ability to cover the whole pitch and produce pieces of brilliant of both phases of the game, the literal definition of a box-to-box midfielder.

Beckenbauer's comparison is weird as he had his own interpretation of a libero role and he had performed it for pretty much his entire career (excluding his early years for the NT, thanks to Schulz occupying his spot). From the back 4. Edwards wasn't playing in a role he's put in here.

Are you playing with 2 box-to-box midfielders behind Socrates and Cruyff? If that is the case, I'm sorry, it's just that your formation picture suggests something different (and I'm not sure how wise it is to play like that with Cruyff also coming inside a lot). Still, I wouldn't have much issues with a Falcão - Edwards as a dynamic box-to-box duo.

edit:
Found it. Edwards on his role (wing-half)

These (the left and right half) are the link men, the men who make or break a side. Have a good defence, have a good attack, but have poor wing-halves linking them and the team loses half it’s efficiency. Their job is to stop the other sides inside-forwards fetching and carrying the ball – once they have done that the game is half won – and yet at the same time see that their own inside-forwards get as much of the ball as possible.

But before a ball is kicked or a tackle made, the keynote of this position is stamina. The wing-half is never still. Either he is foraging in his opponents’ half, or else back helping his own defence withstand pressure.

The main part of his defensive job is to keep check of those inside-forwards.

Yet obviously he cannot do it through close marking, in the way that the full-backs and centre-half do their job. Rather he has to rely on his own speed to get him back in defence once his own side has been suddenly robbed of the initiative.

His dominance of mid-field is the deciding factor in any match. When a line of forwards is sweetly and smoothly mounting an offensive, notice where the move starts. Invariably it is with some enterprising wing-half. Conversely, if a side’s attack is starved of the ball, watch and see who is winning the mid-field duels. It must be the other team.
The wing-half needs all the defensive skill, power of recovery and hardness of tackle of the full-back, yet he must ally these to the enterprise of the inside-forward

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

There were some excellent quotes from his own book (yes, he had wrote a book) on his own role as a wing-half and how to play it, but I can't find it anywhere, the article where I think I saw it is not available anymore.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/road-trip-draft-2-final-gstq-vs-himannv.450571/post-24698507

 

[harms]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/road-trip-draft-2-final-gstq-vs-himannv.450571/post-24698507

Cheers! Found my own post from some time ago, but yours had a bit more.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Are you playing with 2 box-to-box midfielders behind Socrates and Cruyff? If that is the case, I'm sorry, it's just that your formation picture suggests something different (and I'm not sure how wise it is to play like that with Cruyff also coming inside a lot). Still, I wouldn't have much issues with a Falcão - Edwards as a dynamic box-to-box duo.

I'd say Ajax/Netherlands of early 70's didn't have a static DM.

Jansen and Haan would qualify as defensive B2B's and did participate in attack although the graphics would indicate otherwise.

I get where you are getting from and in a traditional 4-3-3, I don't think Edwards is fully utilized there (although fully capable of playing a limited role), but in a Cruyff 4-3-3, I like Edwards a lot there.

 

[harms]

I'd say Ajax/Netherlands of early 70's didn't have a static DM.

Jansen and Haan would qualify as defensive B2B's and did participate in attack although the graphics would indicate otherwise.

I get where you are getting from and in a traditional 4-3-3, I don't think Edwards is fully utilized there (although fully capable of playing a limited role), but in a Cruyff 4-3-3, I like Edwards a lot there.

Yeah, I’d buy him in that idea, but this is not it, is it? Socrates especially looks out of place here if you’re going for a Netherlands-inspired team, and generally both the formation and the personnel are pretty different.

 

[Isotope]

I think @GodShaveTheQueen has said something about his time as a center back – if I remember correctly, I think he had said that he had never played as a center back aside from that game against Villa. Not sure about his games as a DM, considering that it was Blanchflower who had played in such a position at the time – Edwards used to play as a half back which was basically a box-to-box role.

There were some excellent quotes from his own book (yes, he had wrote a book) on his own role as a wing-half and how to play it, but I can't find it anywhere, the article where I think I saw it is not available anymore. Anyway, the point still stands – the beauty of Edwards was his ability to cover the whole pitch and produce pieces of brilliant of both phases of the game, the literal definition of a box-to-box midfielder.

Beckenbauer's comparison is weird as he had his own interpretation of a libero role and he had performed it for pretty much his entire career (excluding his early years for the NT, thanks to Schulz occupying his spot). From the back 4. Edwards wasn't playing in a role he's put in here.

Are you playing with 2 box-to-box midfielders behind Socrates and Cruyff? If that is the case, I'm sorry, it's just that your formation picture suggests something different (and I'm not sure how wise it is to play like that with Cruyff also coming inside a lot). Still, I wouldn't have much issues with a Falcão - Edwards as a dynamic box-to-box duo.

edit:
He's not a pure DM, but his defensive capabilities is also explained on those quote you have. Lots of people don't mind having him as DM, even as centerback.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thefootballtacticsblog/2011/04/who_would_make_your_all-time_m.html

 

[Isotope]

Yeah, I’d buy him in that idea, but this is not it, is it? Socrates especially looks out of place here if you’re going for a Netherlands-inspired team, and generally both the formation and the personnel are pretty different.

Socrates shouldn't be a weakness. He's actually pretty good in tackling, if needed. And he's press resistant, with good vision. He'll force the opponent to defend.

I personally think that P-Nut team won't have many chance to attack, especially through using width.

I'm not sure of why you think my team will lose to P-Nut team. My team has more proven goalscorers from so many sources, and I have better defence. Even the midfield dominance, I'm going with 50-50 at least, conservatively.

 

[harms]

He's not a pure DM, but his defensive capabilities is also explained on those quote you have. Lots of people don't mind having him as DM, even as centerback.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thefootballtacticsblog/2011/04/who_would_make_your_all-time_m.html

I see your argument and raise you this

 

[harms]

Socrates shouldn't be a weakness. He's actually pretty good in tackling, if needed. And he's press resistant, with good vision. He'll force the opponent to defend.

I don't have an issue with Socrates in your team unless it claims to be inspired by the 70's Dutch 4-3-3 (so far only GSTQ used this direct comparison if I'm not wrong). Your fullbacks also have to provide width (and they can do it very well), but you really need your DM to drop back in that case. As I see it, you have a set of different options to choose from, but you can't choose all of them.

 

[Isotope]

I see your argument and raise you this

And this is another article about him that can play anywhere:

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/du...-thing-that-has-happened-in-british-football/

Edwards was revered for his all-round game and versatility, and how he could excel at almost every position on the pitch, whether it was centre-half, centre-forward, inside forward or half-back. “He was never bothered where he played,” said Murphy.


However, he would make the majority of his appearances as a left-half, a hybrid between a defender and a midfielder, which was his favourite position as he was constantly involved and could use both his defensive and attacking abilities.


“He was Roy Keane and Bryan Robson combined, but in a bigger body,” is how his former teammate Wilf McGuinness described him. “He could play as an attacker, creator or defender and be the best player on the pitch… He was world class when United had the ball, and when the opposition has the ball he was our best defender.”

 

[Isotope]

@harms. Although this position appears to be not displaying his full capabilities, but it does still show one of his strength. And it is not a really obscure opinion (like putting Iniesta as DLP, which not many people put him there), as many have agreed.

 

[P-Nut]

Sorry I've not been around half as much as I wanted to be today, wife dragged me sorting stuff for the house.

I think the amount of defending my side would have to do is being overstated by some though.

I've got Pirlo to dictate the tempo of the game when I need to keep the ball and 3 midfielders around him all with a good passing range and work rate, there is no reason we shouldn't have plenty of the ball here.

The lesser Muller in Thomas is another reason why this side just won't be dominated on possession side of things.

I personally love the below article on all the things he brings to any side he plays in and how he elevates the players around him.

https://www.bavarianfootballworks.c...why-the-idea-of-thomas-muller-is-so-important

It also highlights some of the reasons I think Gerard works in this diamond, he's got the work rate of Muller in front of him rather than a traditional second striker who wouldn't work half as hard and open up the space as much for Gerrard to go forward.

 

[Himannv]

Isotope's write up:

In attack, Cruyff fluidly interchange position with the deadly but hardworker Lewandowski and Barcelona legend Kubala.

Is there such a big necessity to hold the attacking shape and replicate a total football kind of setup in attack? I'd be more tempted to just give Cruyff a free role and let him go where he wants. You just know he'd eventually find that space between Pirlo and the CBs or a slot between Alves and Carvalho.

If you have Lewa up front and drawing defenders, it allows Cruyff to isolate one of the CBs a bit more easily. Switching positions with Lewa seems pointless because I don't know what Lewa will do on the left if he moves there.

Like Cruyff himself said, if he had a Van Basten in his team, he'd stick him up front and play off him. Letting Lewa play to his strengths seems like a better way to sync it all up.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Yeah, I’d buy him in that idea, but this is not it, is it? Socrates especially looks out of place here if you’re going for a Netherlands-inspired team, and generally both the formation and the personnel are pretty different.

Yea, I guess the double pivot would have been more appropriate.

 

[harms]

@harms. Although this position appears to be not displaying his full capabilities, but it does still show one of his strength. And it is not a really obscure opinion (like putting Iniesta as DLP, which not many people put him there), as many have agreed.

The thing is, you have to realistically assess all of those quotes. I can give you tons of quotes about Gerrard which will (supposedly) make your criticism of him look ridiculous, although personally I see where you’re coming from.

Anyway, this is something that doesn’t sit right with me – like Cafu behind Garrincha in other thread, he won’t get exposed, but it’s such a waste to use him that way. I think we’ve made our arguments, so I’m going to move on from this point.

 

[Synco]

Also said it on write up, Hulshoff had a good record against Muller. "In 1972/73 European Cup QF, Ajax’s Hulshoff met Bayern’s Muller in 2-leg ties. The round ended 5-2 to Ajax, where Muller only scored 1, after Ajax already led 5-1 in aggregate."

Wasn't quite like that, I have to say. Ajax famously won the first leg 4-0, and, without Cruijff, lost the game in Munich 1-2. The problem: Hulshoff was injured for the win and only played in the defeat, where Müller scored the winning goal after outfoxing Ajax' defense in typical style. (Although I think it's Blankenburg who was directly responsible for him in that situation).

That said, even if the facts in the OP were correct, I'm not a fan of reducing team results to a random individual duel (similar with the Dodz/Best narrative). Ajax' win had nothing to do with Müller getting individually shut down Figueroa-style in the first place. Likewise, everything the return leg shows is that Müller can indeed score against a defense featuring Hulshoff, which isn't much of a revelation either.

 

[Isotope]

Wasn't quite like that, I have to say. Ajax famously won the first leg 4-0, and, without Cruijff, lost the game in Munich 1-2. The problem: Hulshoff was injured in the win, and only played in the loss, where Müller scored the winning goal after outfoxing Ajax' defense in typical style. (Although I think it's Blankenburg who was directly responsible for him in that situation).

That said, even if the facts in the OP were correct, I'm not a fan of reducing team results to a random individual duel (similar with the Dodz/Best narrative). Ajax' win had nothing to do with Müller getting individually shut down Figueroa-style in the first place. Likewise, everything the return leg shows is that Müller can indeed score against a defense featuring Hulshoff, which isn't much of a revelation either.

You're right. It seems like Blakenburg was marking Muller, with that goal. Although I'm pretty sure Muller wasn't just stationary.

 

[Synco]

You're right. It seems like Blakenburg was marking Muller, with that goal. Although I'm pretty sure Muller wasn't just stationary.

Yeah, Hulshoff tried to block the pass, and Blankenburg tried to play Müller offside, which backfired. Müller nullified both with perfect timing & positioning, but Blankenburg was the one to make an actual mistake. At least that's what I can make out.

 

[Gio]

Although I agree with @harms that this holding role isn't making the optimal use of Edwards all-round game, but given Falcao, Socrates and Cruyff ahead, Edwards best serves the team by screening the defence and holding the midfield together. And I can see him being a hell of an imposing player in that role, given the chance, based on my understanding of him. A little bit like Yaya Toure at Barcelona, where he could do so much more, but was immense as a DM during 2008/09 because he had just about all the attributes you need in that position.

 

[harms]

Yeah, as I’ve said – he can certainly do it, I’m just not a fan of him being limited to that role.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Isotope's side is a creation of beauty and genius

I don't think P-Nut's die (especially with Gerrard and Pirlo in the midfield) would have a prayer defending against that attack plus Moore is a better defender and defensive leader than anyone on P-Nut's side.

 

[P-Nut]

Good game @Isotope

 

[Isotope]

Congrats @P-Nut

 

[Isotope]

Isotope's side is a creation of beauty and genius

I don't think P-Nut's die (especially with Gerrard and Pirlo in the midfield) would have a prayer defending against that attack plus Moore is a better defender and defensive leader than anyone on P-Nut's side.

Thanks. Best team I've ever assembled. Thanks to @GodShaveTheQueen for some suggestions.