The Daredevil Draft R1 | Physiocrat vs. Michaelf

With all players at their peak, which team do you think would win this game?


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GodShaveTheQueen

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------------------------------------ PHYSIOCRAT-------------------------------------------------------------------------- MICHAELF-----------------------------------

Physiocrat's write up:

Tactics – Direct/ Mixed

Formation – 433

In attack there a numerous possibilities. Here are a few.






Defensive Line Balanced

Marking – Zonal

The side is built around George Best (61 goals in 119 games at his peak – interestingly he came third in the Ballon d’Or in 1971 along with his win in 1968 showing he has better longevity than is typical thought). He has complete freedom to do as he pleases, as he vacates the left Nedved will generally take up the space to keep the pitch spread horizontally. Best will be a total menace to Leandro at right back. He will love the through balls of both Nedved and Schuster as will Alberto Spencer. As Theon aptly showed in the last draft, he is not just a heading machine but an intelligent quick dribbling forward. Spencer was also the big game player scoring 16 goals in 17 Libertadores games between 1960 and 1962.

Spencer’s heading will though be exploited by Nedved and of course Luis Figo with his deadly crosses as well as Schuster’s free-kicks. Figo will also be able to drift into the middle and play make being flanked by the tireless Gerets. One of Gerets, Vasovic and Marzolini will get forward in attack but with Gerets the most frequent, then Vasovic and then Marzolini (according to written records he got forward pretty well so even if that is overblown in this supplementary attacking role will suit him well). Zito will anchor the midfield with his tenacious tackling, work rate and sharp passing. Even if we can’t break down Michael’s defence, Nedved, Schuster and Figo had excellent long shots on them.

When we lose the ball the front three will engage in some counter pressing, especially Best and Figo. If the ball is not won by the half way line the side will move into the organised defensive stage keeping Best in the hole ready to unleash devastation following expert long passes from Schuster.

The midfield four (in the defensive phase Nedved, Zito, Schuster and Figo) are all extremely hard working and intelligent. Then the back four has the all-time Argentine left back Marzolini, Ajax’s legend sweeper Vasovic who will marshal the back four, tenacious but composed Ferrara, and Belgian great Eric Gerets. In goal there’s the Pat Jennings ranked 13th best keeper of all-time in the Draft forum rankings. We will be tough to break down and the pace of Spencer and Best on the break will be a problem for Michael.

Michaelf's write up:

My team will be playing a basic 4-4-2 with Baggio playing a bit deeper and Romario as the poacher. Most of my players are fairly well nown with the exception of Abbadie whom I rate as the greatest defensive winger ever (look at this post (http://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-...han-vs-joga-annah.409195/page-3#post-18107720) from Antohan for details of how with a RB behind him who has no international caps and no page on either the English or Spanish wikipedia's, he kept quiet a flank which both Gento and Amancio were attacking). Abbadie's defensive skills therefore gives Leandro more freedom to go forward.
 

Physiocrat

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Thanks for setting it up.

First thoughts on Michael's side are that the front two a great combo and the wingers male sense for a 442 (will read up on Abbadie). Passarella though next to an attacking left-back is not going to allow him to get forward as much as you would like. Also Tardelli looks as though he's playing more of a DM role which looks an ill fit although it could well be two B2B midfielders.

My main main advantage is going to be Nedved and Best on the left creating havoc for Leandro and Abbadie. Best cutting in on the half-spaces towards van Dijk and being fed by Nedved and Schuster will be a thorn in Michael's side. Also I having Zito in a dedicated DM role will help in stopping Baggio on the break. As I see it I will have a decent amount more of the ball (nothing crazy, maybe 56%) and have the creativity to break down that defence.
 

harms

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I'm leaning towards Physio although Beckenbauer's presence makes this choice so tough. Physio's attack and midfield looks absolutely fantastic though, I absolutely love the balance and the role that he has given Nedved there.
 

Physiocrat

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I'm leaning towards Physio although Beckenbauer's presence makes this choice so tough. Physio's attack and midfield looks absolutely fantastic though, I absolutely love the balance and the role that he has given Nedved there.
I went for Nedved relatively early as he was the best fit for this LCM role in this side. Plus I really liked the idea of putting him in his best role - in the LCM position with three players generally ahead of him. You free him to be creative with lots of options upfront but also deep enough to make best use of his industry.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Yea it comes down to a team build almost in perfect sync like you would expect from a physio team (structure and cohesiveness over Goatness) against a Michael team that has brilliant partnerships all around be it Romario-Baggio or Tardelli-Kaiser or Passarella-Van Dijk.

Really close, will think and vote tomorrow.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Yea it comes down to a team build almost in perfect sync like you would expect from a physio team (structure and cohesiveness over Goatness) against a Michael team that has brilliant partnerships all around be it Romario-Baggio or Tardelli-Kaiser or Passarella-Van Dijk.

Really close, will think and vote tomorrow.
I had Michael in 1st place in the seedings but he somehow seems slightly less than the sum of his awesome parts here, whereas Physio just looks in perfect sync like you say.
 

Isotope

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I just think that Baggio - ROmario would tear up that Vasovic - Ferrara defence. And there's a massive underrating of Donadoni here. He's a skilful and creative winger, and extremely hardworker also.
 

Physiocrat

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I just think that Baggio - ROmario would tear up that Vasovic - Ferrara defence. And there's a massive underrating of Donadoni here. He's a skilful and creative winger, and extremely hardworker also.
I think that is harsh on Ferrara and Vasovic. Both have decent pace and Ferrara famously dealt with R9 at his peak at Inter who is at least similar in certain respects to Romario.

Here's a profile on the underrated Vasovic.

Here's a profile of a generally underrated player in Velibor Vasovic


Velibor Vasovic: The Yugoslav who completed Michels’ Total Football dream



In 1965, Rinus Michels took over as Ajax coach in a bid to pull themselves away from the relegation zone, and achieved it. However, Michels’ goals were much higher than that and having won the league in the very next season, he realised there had to be changes if the Dutch club aimed at European success.

Michels was undoubtedly one of the best – or perhaps, even the best – tactical minds to have graced football, and and it is not particularly surprising when he realised in 1966 that even though he had at his disposal, some of the best attackers in the continent in Piet Keizer, Sjaak Swart and of course, the young Johan Cruijff, that his team will never reach the zenith without a solid defence.

Tonnie Pronk and Frits Soutekouw were not horrid defenders by any means, they just did not have the attitude or technical prowess Michels expected his defenders to have. The Dutchman had played under Jack Reynolds at Ajax and the Englishman’s philosophy of attack being the best defence and looked for a player who could emulate that characteristic on pitch.

Moreover, Michels realised that though there was an abundance of talent, the correct mindset was missing. Too often, as Dutch mentalities can tend to be, there was a lack of a winning mentality in the young Ajax squad. They lacked the arrogance, (which for many, is what actuallywould turn out to be the hamartia of the Oranje in the 1974 World Cup final) and self-assurance. So, Rinus Michels set out on an expedition to search high and low for a player who ticked these boxes for him, perhaps the final jigsaw of his own goudenploeg (golden team).

In short, he was hoping to chance upon Velibor Vasovic.

Knowing that Ajax would contest in the European Cup, having won the Eredivisie, Michels was not one who would settle for losses in Europe, writing them off as ‘experience’. As a result, his search began right after Ajax had triumphed in the league. Michels had watched Vasovic’s Partizan lose to a Real Madrid with the likes of Pirri and Gento in Brussels, but was highly impressed with the Yugoslav centreback’s tendency to burst out in attack when he was in possession of the ball. He approached Vasovic through a mutual friend and official talks were held in October of 1966, a few months before ‘de Mistwestrijd’ thrashing of Shankly’s Liverpool and the subsequent disappointing exit at the hands of underdogs Dukla Prague.

Vasovic was not satisfied with the price offered by the Amsterdam club, but wanting a move away from Belgrade, with Ajax the only viable option and convinced with Michels’ vision for the club and his own role in it, Vasovic signed for the Godenzonen in December 1966 and was immediately drafted into the first XI, paired with Barry Hulshoff, 8 years his junior. Vasovic himself was not old at the time, only 27, but in comparison to the rest of the Ajax squad, he was a veteran and he knew it. By no means, modest, he realised then the impact he could have at the football club, just by sharing his experience and showing the younger generation how to play in order to win.

“When I came, I preferred to play a kind of total football. I played the last man in defence, the libero. Michels made this plan to play very offensive football. We discussed it. I was the architect, together with Michels, of the aggressive way of defending. I did small things, like make an offisde or stand in the wall to make a gap for goals. When you see examples from other players on field, you learn a hundred times better than in training,” he said, with the same air of confidence he had around him when he arrived at Ajax. His self-assurance became contagious at the de Meer, not the least infecting Johan Cruijff, who looked to the Prozevac-born defender like his elder brother.

As we gaze back at the past now, his last sentence there could not have been more true. With him around, his young 19-year-old partner in defence, Hulshoff learnt how to read the game with precision, so much so that though Michels asked of him to be stronger and rougher on field, he never had to, because he would never let attackers get that close. Ruud Krol, who played leftback when Vasovic was at Ajax, would later become a sweeper himself has also acknowledged the Yugoslav’s input in his own development as a player, talking about how he would try to emulate Vasovic



Moroever, Vasovic had a resilient aura about him that was ever so vital in transforming Ajax from a team that played beautifully to a team that won beautifully. There was a lot more steel in the Golden Ajax team than many romantics would have you believe and Vasovic made sure that the defence remained efficient while being offensive and aggressive. Vasco was one who certainly knew the detour from the road of arrogance to the road of complacency and with the help of Michels, made sure he and the team were on the right track.

Looking a bit like Johan Cruijff’s older, stouter brother too, Vasovic was given the captaincy by Michels, hence making him the first ever foreign player to have captained Ajax, and he got the honour of being captain in the clubs’s bid to win their first European Cup. But as he was, four years previously in Brussels, Vasovic was denied the chance to get his hands on ‘Big-Ears’ even though he had scored in his second European final, though this team his Ajax were beaten soundly by Milan. 4-1 it ended and by the end of the match, Vasovic had but one resolve. He knew his career was not going to last long, especially with his asthma, even though he was only 30 at the time. Even though they had just won two Eredivisie titles on the trot, nothing matches the exultation of being decreed as the best in Europe. ‘Vasco’ was possibly the one determined, more than anyone in that Ajax team to win the European Cup.

Perhaps the biggest aid for this dream of his, came in the form of a 19-year-old, wild-haired Dutch lad with a penchant to run equally wildly at the opponents, the young Johan Neeskens. In a way, Neeskens brought the best out of Vasovic himself. Neeskens would hound the opposition into their own half while Vasovic realised his defence’s relative positions compared to the opponent attacker’s and urged his defenders to move forward and decrease the space or ‘pitch’ available for the opponents. This was effectively, the invention of the offside trap and the high line that Ajax still use today.

Moreover, it involved the very Dutch concept of space, which Michels based Total Football on. As Barry Hulshoff puts it, “You make space, you come into space.”. The more successful Ajax teams – including the hattrick-championship-winning ones – have always been built on a foundation of technically brilliant defenders who are more-than-capable passers, and Vasovic was the one who undoubtedly set the precedent. As David Winner puts it, Vasovic was a ‘battle-hardened veteran and inspiring competitor who could teach the youngsters a thing or two about winning football matches.’

All these tactics were not yet known of in other shores and this meant 1971 was the year, when Velibor Vasovic would get third time lucky and lift his and Ajax’s first European Cup, as captain. With that, he would hang his boots up, only 32 and only having played 13 full seasons in his entire career. He had found his Holy Grail and he was content, leaving the Netherlands as an Ajax legend and having spearheaded some of the biggest tactical innovations football has seen and uses today.
 

Isotope

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I don't know. Defending wise, I don't really rate Vasovic. He's an excellent passer as defender though.
 

Physiocrat

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football is a funny game isnt it as id say the opposite :)
From what I have seen he doesn't seem to be much of a passing CB like say Krol was in that position, he is more of a dribbling one, bringing the ball out of defence that way.
 

Ecstatic

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@antohan woud have been proud of your team: A consistent 442, 2 top box to box, Passarella, the legendary Romario, etc. Almost a perfect drafting but a bit surprised by your final picks. If you win, I believe you should replace Donadoni IMO, I believe the latter is better on the right. Had a quick look at the youtube video donadoni vs fiorentina this morning and he seeens less comfortable with the left foot but, on the other hand he could cut inside like a Robert Pires who would have a similar interesting option. However, the perfect man would have been Giggs and I can understand why you tried to pick him but unsuccesfully :wenger:

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Physiocrat

If you win, I would suggest to find a way to remove Zito but a glamourous name in defence always helps.

I will vote for you because I would expect more goals with Nedved/Best/Figo/Spencer against Donadoni/Ronario/baggio/abaddie

The criteria decision factor is always the offensive unit.

Strange to vote against Beckenbauer/passarella/romario/baggio but I am always biased in an offensive way
 

Jim Beam

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From what I have seen he doesn't seem to be much of a passing CB like say Krol was in that position, he is more of a dribbling one, bringing the ball out of defence that way.
Yeah, he was much more about bringing the ball once he got it (would often go forward to get the ball in front of the attacker) and then create the numerical advantage upfront. Which gels quite nicely with Schuster and Nedved being on the front foot too.

Great teams, just see Physio putting more pressure and creating more chances the way it has been structured, even limiting Beckenbauer influence somewhat in the midfield.
 

Isotope

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football is a funny game isnt it as id say the opposite :)
Heh.. WIth Ajax, he often step up to midfield. His partner, Hulshoff, is the one doing the "dirty work".
He's another "defender" that in modern team, would be considered as midfielder, imho.
 

Physiocrat

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Heh.. WIth Ajax, he often step up to midfield. His partner, Hulshoff, is the one doing the "dirty work".
He's another "defender" that in modern team, would be considered as midfielder, imho.
I think Vasovic could well have been a midfielder today (assuming the high press, high line tactics) although I think he fits very well in my system and has licence to go forward.

On a related topic, would Baresi have been a midfielder today? The amount of forward runs and dribbles he makes from CB is far greater than you would today. That said he can obviously play high press and a high line but it would somewhat different to the way it is interpreted by Pep and Klopp today.
 

Jim Beam

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I think Vasovic could well have been a midfielder today (assuming the high press, high line tactics) although I think he fits very well in my system and has licence to go forward.
Vasovic played a lot as a DM for Partizan in his younger days then moved to defence. Tbf, his absolute best was as CB or a sweeper, but he could certainly operate as a midfielder.

Don't think Baresi would be moved anywhere. After all, he is/was the best pure defender to ever play the game.
 

Isotope

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I think Vasovic could well have been a midfielder today (assuming the high press, high line tactics) although I think he fits very well in my system and has licence to go forward.

On a related topic, would Baresi have been a midfielder today? The amount of forward runs and dribbles he makes from CB is far greater than you would today. That said he can obviously play high press and a high line but it would somewhat different to the way it is interpreted by Pep and Klopp today.
Yeh. Although I think with Romario there, it's a bit difficult for him to move forward.

With Baresi (and Scirea, imho), his tackling is superb. ALthough he moved forward sometimes, but you can tell he's a CB first and foremost. A typical Italian CB who's not afraid getting "dirty".
 

Šjor Bepo

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whats this nonsense that every ball playing defender would end up as a midfielder? are we in a bubble where managers dont almost rate ball playing skills over defending for almost 10 years now?
 

Physiocrat

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whats this nonsense that every ball playing defender would end up as a midfielder? are we in a bubble where managers dont almost rate ball playing skills over defending for almost 10 years now?
Well I like my CBs to be able to do it, it just seems the consensus is going that way at least if you assume modern tactics. It makes sense in a way as the archetypal CB today would be someone like Thiago Silva - strong, quick and decent on the ball. Decent on the ball meaning can play solid short passes, can dribble ok and are reasonable press resistant. That's what managers seem to want out of their CBs today. Now if you had someone with a distinct skillset he might try to adapt around that but that is how things seem to be going. All that said I'm not a fan of modern tactics so not something I like to see.