The David Moyes appreciation thread

[Abhinav]

Not buying that, i'd be staggered if at least half the people he asked(and i'm sure he asked many people he trusted in football, and close friends) what they would do in the same situation re. SAF's staff would have said he had to bring in his own staff because the last thing he needed after the first defeat/sequence of bad results was Mickey Phelan in his ear saying SAF would have done this, SAF would have done that, or Rene holding a seminar with flip-charts aplenty going into graphic detail why RvP wasn't as effective as the previous year because he was playing 2 inches to far to the right.

If David Moyes thought it was the right thing to do it was the right thing for him to do.

And if the players didn't like it, tough, it was his Gig, and the option to leave was always there. Most of them were ready for the Travellers yard any way.

Well then maybe thats why half the people that would have given that advice would never become elite level managers. I am sure Sir Alex advised him to keep the staff and thats the only advice he should have listened to.

Its a decision thats coming out of insecurity rather than authority. The question to be answered is this - Did David Moyes bring in the new staff because they were more likely to get through to the players and succeed? Or did he bring in the new staff because he would be able to command them and not be challenged? If he is honest with himself the answer is the latter.

Not that he will ever come to that realisation himself - all his interviews post the sacking point to some misplaced arrogance that might be coming from a place of insecurity, knowing deep inside that he didn’t deserve to be the United manager. Nothing wrong with feeling inadequate or insecure, but it always helps if you are honest with your self as it helps one make better decisions.

 

[Ikon]

There was a misplaced arrogance about him and a complete lack of understanding about the size of the club. He gave himself no chance from day one.

That smug and arrogant look on his face......don't think there's ever been anyone ever at United that I've wanted to slap so much..!!

 

[TRUERED89]

That smug and arrogant look on his face......don't think there's ever been anyone ever at United that I've wanted to slap so much..!!

Tevez? Jose? Fellaini? Lukaku? Sanchez? Di Maria? There's a few on the list

 

[Foxbatt]

SAF did say that he adviced Moyes to keep the coaching staff and that it was a well run ship and he never thought Moyes was going to get rid of them. Shows that SAF does not know how to judge people sometimes.
That team he had was good enough to finish in the top 4 without a doubt. If he had kept the Phelan and Rene they would have continued doing what they kept doing the previous years and winning matches. He was too arrogant when he got the job.

 

[Ikon]

Tevez? Jose? Fellaini? Lukaku? Sanchez? Di Maria? There's a few on the list

All good candidates, but Moyes just takes the biscuit for me, that fecking face..!!

 

[Chabon]

Ferguson left United in 2013 with an old team that was on its very last legs.

It's not possible for a dominant, league winning team, to suddenly become crap over a summer.

Over Fergie's last two seasons our starting 11, based on minutes played in the league, was the following:

De Gea
Rafael Rio Evans Evra
Carrick Jones
Valencia Rooney Welbeck
Van Persie

It's not an old team by any measure. Rio was the only player on his last legs, and obviously, obviously, we needed a new CM*, but beyond that it's a very well-balanced side in terms of age and ability. You can argue (and many have) that it's a mediocre team that Fergie magicked into two successive 89 point seasons, but the idea that it was an 'old' team is based on some myth of Vidic**, Giggs, and Scholes being vital players in that era, which simply isn't borne out by the facts of who actually played the minutes.

Which brings me to the second quote. The most telling fact about Moyes is that we had the best away form in the league when he was manager. You can't do that without having a quality football team, but the problem was that Moyes had absolutely no idea how to manage Manchester United at Old Trafford. Anyone who attended any match that season at OT (the Fulham game was on my birthday, so I remember those 81 crosses particularly well) knows the problem that year wasn't the players, it was the clueless manager. We were always going to have a drop when Fergie left, but any remotely competent manager would have seen us drop ten points and maybe two places, not 25 points and six places.

*

Spoiler

Scholes, Giggs, Cleverley, and Anderson all played about 20 games' worth in our endless midfield carousel, Jones only got about 12 but he played loads in other positions so you have to have him as a first 11 player.

**

Spoiler

The knee injury Vida suffered in 2011 basically ended his career, we just didn't know it at the time. He played less than Ferdinand, Evans, Smalling and Jones in SAF's last two seasons.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Over Fergie's last two seasons our starting 11, based on minutes played in the league, was the following:

De Gea
Rafael Rio Evans Evra
Carrick Jones
Valencia Rooney Welbeck
Van Persie

It's not an old team by any measure. Rio was the only player on his last legs, and obviously, obviously, we needed a new CM*, but beyond that it's a very well-balanced side in terms of age and ability. You can argue (and many have) that it's a mediocre team that Fergie magicked into two successive 89 point seasons, but the idea that it was an 'old' team is based on some myth of Vidic**, Giggs, and Scholes being vital players in that era, which simply isn't borne out by the facts of who actually played the minutes.

Look at that midfield, you can replace Jones with any midfielder we had at the time for that matter, look at those wide players, no other manager in the world comes close to winning the league with that team.

 

[TRUERED89]

All good candidates, but Moyes just takes the biscuit for me, that fecking face..!!

Well Moyes was the catalyst for the sunken ship that is now Manchester United, so I guess that's a fair shout!

 

[John Blund]

Look at that midfield, you can replace Jones with any midfielder we had at the time for that matter, look at those wide players, no other manager in the world comes close to winning the league with that team.

Valencia were still class. Yes, he faded away the last few seasons as RB, but his contribution as RW still counts. Funny how we never had a decent LW under SAF, and now we can't find a proper RW.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Valencia were still class. Yes, he faded away the last few seasons as RB, but his contribution as RW still counts. Funny how we never had a decent LW under SAF, and now we can't find a proper RW.

Nah he wasn’t, he stopped being an effective attacking player by the end of 2011-2012, we didn’t have a single effective wide player in 12-13.
The way the careers of almost all of these players went after SAF retired says it all about their quality, and how good of a manager he was.

But yes, literally any manager that would’ve come after SAF and kept his staff would’ve finished top 4 that season, no problem.

 

[KirkDuyt]

This might be a bit unpopular, but judging his successors, was he really that much worse? He has the whole gollum lookalike thing and the Fulham fist pump is a bit silly when managing United, but looking at your signings the past 6 years. Fellaini is definitely not the worst.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

This might be a bit unpopular, but judging his successors, was he really that much worse? He has the whole gollum lookalike thing and the Fulham fist pump is a bit silly when managing United, but looking at your signings the past 6 years. Fellaini is definitely not the worst.

I think he would’ve surely done better in the market than Jose, and comfortably better than Van Gaal.
He did have an eye for a bargain, cannot take that away from him.
Fellaini is far a better player than Pereira or Fred, and we should’ve kept him imo.

 

[stevoc]

Look at that midfield, you can replace Jones with any midfielder we had at the time for that matter, look at those wide players, no other manager in the world comes close to winning the league with that team.

The thing is Moyes didn't have to win the league, he didn't even have to come close. All he had to do was come 4th and he couldn't even manage that.

For the record Moyes also had Nani, Young and Zaha at his disposal he wouldn't have had to play those wide players.

 

[stevoc]

I'm always open to other peoples opinion, and within a week of him getting the Gig i'd gone from whatever he does he must keep SAF's staff to it will probably be best if he brings his own people in, and i've tried to explain why in post #197, so it was no great surprise that he did just that.

I wasn't surprised he did it either, Moyes seems like the type that would want his own yes men around him.

And on his staff, Ramsden was 66/67 at the time and probably retired, I think Chris Woods stayed on after Moyes left for a while then got fixed up elsewhere, and Steve Round got a job with the FA so the option for them to go to Spain with him wasn't an option, but luckily for him nobody wanted Phil Neville so he went with him, I think anyway, maybe I just made that all up.

Woods stayed on for a bit but was sacked when Van Gaal took over, he was out of work for over a year before getting a role at West Ham. I can't find anything about Round working for the FA, he like Woods was out of work when Moyes took over at Sociedad, then Round was assistant at Derby for a few months in early 2015 before being out of work again until becoming a DOF at Villa in 2016.

So either they didn't fancy a job in Spain or Moyes wasn't too worried about their mortgages.

 

[stevoc]

D'ya think

I do yes mate, i though it was a mistake at time too but was open minded enough to realize i could be wrong.

Or if they'd been professional like Rio and stabbed him in the back with Jagielkagate on Twitter inside a month!

Lets be honest that deserved to be made public knowledge. And Moyes has done enough back stabbing of his own so i have little sympathy for him.

 

[Class of 63]

Well then maybe thats why half the people that would have given that advice would never become elite level managers. I am sure Sir Alex advised him to keep the staff and thats the only advice he should have listened to.

Its a decision thats coming out of insecurity rather than authority. The question to be answered is this - Did David Moyes bring in the new staff because they were more likely to get through to the players and succeed? Or did he bring in the new staff because he would be able to command them and not be challenged? If he is honest with himself the answer is the latter.

Not that he will ever come to that realisation himself - all his interviews post the sacking point to some misplaced arrogance that might be coming from a place of insecurity, knowing deep inside that he didn’t deserve to be the United manager. Nothing wrong with feeling inadequate or insecure, but it always helps if you are honest with your self as it helps one make better decisions.

On the Couch(in treatment)with @Abhinav

Maybe he should have just declined the job offer, and then regretted it for the rest of his life.

And each and every one of us prefer having people around us we feel comfortable with, life is tough enough as it is.

 

[Foxbatt]

SAF gave him the job so he should have listened to him on the coaching staff.

 

[shamans]

This might be a bit unpopular, but judging his successors, was he really that much worse? He has the whole gollum lookalike thing and the Fulham fist pump is a bit silly when managing United, but looking at your signings the past 6 years. Fellaini is definitely not the worst.

Also taken out of context. That fist pump was done when scored and were ahead not when we equalized.

Moyes was not as bad as he was made out to be but at the end of the day, he had his chance. He made some calls and it didn't work out.

 

[Class of 63]

I wasn't surprised he did it either, Moyes seems like the type that would want his own yes men around him.

Woods stayed on for a bit but was sacked when Van Gaal took over, he was out of work for over a year before getting a role at West Ham. I can't find anything about Round working for the FA, he like Woods was out of work when Moyes took over at Sociedad, then Round was assistant at Derby for a few months in early 2015 before being out of work again until becoming a DOF at Villa in 2016.

So either they didn't fancy a job in Spain or Moyes wasn't too worried about their mortgages.

• I'd imagine Jimmy Lumsden wouldn't have be slow at coming forward if he felt Moyes needed pulling up, but surely it's the norm to have 'yes' men around?
• I don't know mate it's 7 years ago and i've slept since.
• Who knows, who cares. As I said they couldn't just be sat around waiting for him to get his next Gig.

 

[Class of 63]

I do yes mate, i though it was a mistake at time too but was open minded enough to realize i could be wrong.

Lets be honest that deserved to be made public knowledge. And Moyes has done enough back stabbing of his own so i have little sympathy for him.

Did it feck as like, he undermined the Manager while he was still getting his feet under the table, it was a fecking twats trick and if you could put your dislike of David Moyes aside, you'd agree

 

[KirkDuyt]

Also taken out of context. That fist pump was done when scored and were ahead not when we equalized.

Moyes was not as bad as he was made out to be but at the end of the day, he had his chance. He made some calls and it didn't work out.

Ah it was? Thought it was the equaliser.

 

[shamans]

Ah it was? Thought it was the equaliser.

Yeah I'm really sure. It was that gif with 2-2 in the top? I'm kinda certain we led 2-1 for that

 

[stevoc]

• I'd imagine Jimmy Lumsden wouldn't have be slow at coming forward if he felt Moyes needed pulling up, but surely it's the norm to have 'yes' men around?
• I don't know mate it's 7 years ago and i've slept since.
• Who knows, who cares. As I said they couldn't just be sat around waiting for him to get his next Gig.

Wee Jimmy? I'm not so sure. I'd say most top coaches value having assistants that challenged their views, according to Ferguson he did.

 

[stevoc]

Did it feck as like, he undermined the Manager while he was still getting his feet under the table, it was a fecking twats trick and if you could put your dislike of David Moyes aside, you'd agree

Are you sure you've got the timeline on that one is correct mate?

Could be wrong but as i remember it that rumour only started floating around mid-season and Ferdinand never even publicly commented on it until both he and Moyes had left United. I'm sure Ferdinand didn't announce it on Twitter a month into Moyes reign in any case.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Yeah I'm really sure. It was that gif with 2-2 in the top? I'm kinda certain we led 2-1 for that

Ah, yep that's the one.

 

[Class of 63]

Wee Jimmy? I'm not so sure. I'd say most top coaches value having assistants that challenged their views, according to Ferguson he did.

I don't know the dynamics(word)mate, but of his staff i'd have thunk Wee Jimmy would have been the most likely to pull him up, the others were a lot younger still making their way in the game and less likely to.

Could be totally wide of the mark but I think SAF changed as he got older, Archie Knox who he brought from Aberdeen with him would challenge him and regularly, but his later Lieutenants to the outside world at least were less likely to question him, or be as bullish about it.

Didn't he bounce Brian Kidd out for suggesting John Hartson?

 

[Abhinav]

On the Couch(in treatment)with @Abhinav

Maybe he should have just declined the job offer, and then regretted it for the rest of his life.

And each and every one of us prefer having people around us we feel comfortable with, life is tough enough as it is.

I am glad you find it amusing. You keep on appreciating Moyes and his wonderfully assembled staff.
The rest of us will regret the day the incompetent fool was appointed as the manager of this great institution for a long time.

 

[Class of 63]

Are you sure you've got the timeline on that one is correct mate?

Could be wrong but as i remember it that rumour only started floating around mid-season and Ferdinand never even publicly commented on it until both he and Moyes had left United. I'm sure Ferdinand didn't announce it on Twitter a month into Moyes reign in any case.

I don't know exactly when it was, but that's not really important. Moyes had bravely taken on a poisoned chalice, the hacks were already after him and the last thing he needed was one of his senior pros coming out with that garbage, if Rio had anything about him he'd have admitted he got it horribly wrong, but then this is the guy who missed a drugs tests, got paid a kings ransom for sitting on his arse for 9 months then instead of getting his head down and focusing on actual football when his ban was over he demanded a fecking pay rise, and got it.

 

[Class of 63]

I am glad you find it amusing. You keep on appreciating Moyes and his wonderfully assembled staff.
The rest of us will regret the day the incompetent fool was appointed as the manager of this great institution for a long time.

Behave yourself, what I do find amusing is how so many presumably adults allow themselves to get so bent out of shape by something that happened 7(seven)friggin years ago, christ in one current thread there are fans saying we are in our current predicament because of him, give me fecking strength.

 

[Yagami]

He was a cruel man.

He knew that we were in desperate need of a CM to compliment Carrick, and he decided bloody Fellaini was that man. Should've been sacked the moment he identified him as a legitimate transfer target.

 

[Chabon]

Look at that midfield, you can replace Jones with any midfielder we had at the time for that matter, look at those wide players, no other manager in the world comes close to winning the league with that team.

Valencia, Nani, Young, Kagawa, Chicharito, Van Persie, Welbeck, and Rooney was in 2013 an excellent group of attacking players. It wasn't some sorcery on Sir Alex's part that had them scoring 86 and 89 goals in consecutive PL seasons before he retired, it was their considerable quality as attacking players. And yes, we obviously needed a new midfielder, literally everyone on the planet except David Moyes knew this.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Valencia, Nani, Young, Kagawa, Chicharito, Van Persie, Welbeck, and Rooney was in 2013 an excellent group of attacking players. It wasn't some sorcery on Sir Alex's part that had them scoring 86 and 89 goals in consecutive PL seasons before he retired, it was their considerable quality as attacking players. And yes, we obviously needed a new midfielder, literally everyone on the planet except David Moyes knew this.

Nani, Kagawa, Young, Welbeck, Hernandez and 2013 Valencia were bang average players, the way their career shaped up after SAF left says it all.

 

[Abhinav]

Behave yourself, what I do find amusing is how so many presumably adults allow themselves to get so bent out of shape by something that happened 7(seven)friggin years ago, christ in one current thread there are fans saying we are in our current predicament because of him, give me fecking strength.

So it seems you can dish it out but can’t take it.

Anyway, No one is really getting bent out of shape over Moyes. Its when other posters make excuses for his incompetence then people rightly call it out.

 

[Robbie Boy]

We still have a few hardcore mentalists left defending this utter clown. It’s 2019 get over it, he was utter wank

 

[Chabon]

Nani, Kagawa, Young, Welbeck, Hernandez and 2013 Valencia were bang average players, the way their career shaped up after SAF left says it all.

The goals that team scored says it all, to my mind. They remained a quality attacking side away from home under Moyes (with the addition of Januzaj), but fell apart at home. That's down to Moyes, not the players.

 

[stevoc]

I don't know the dynamics(word)mate, but of his staff i'd have thunk Wee Jimmy would have been the most likely to pull him up, the others were a lot younger still making their way in the game and less likely to.

Could be totally wide of the mark but I think SAF changed as he got older, Archie Knox who he brought from Aberdeen with him would challenge him and regularly, but his later Lieutenants to the outside world at least were less likely to question him, or be as bullish about it.

Didn't he bounce Brian Kidd out for suggesting John Hartson?

He did mate but i think theres a difference between one of your assistants challenging you in private and one waiting until you were on holiday and going behind your back to the chairman and undermining you by saying your transfer targets are wrong and suggesting some of their own.

Thats what he did according to Ferguson anyway.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

He did mate but i think theres a difference between one of your assistants challenging you in private and one waiting until you were on holiday and going behind your back to the chairman and undermining you by saying your transfer targets are wrong and suggesting some of their own.

Thats what he did according to Ferguson anyway.

At the time he was trying to get Yorke from my failing memory.

 

[stevoc]

I don't know exactly when it was, but that's not really important. Moyes had bravely taken on a poisoned chalice, the hacks were already after him and the last thing he needed was one of his senior pros coming out with that garbage, if Rio had anything about him he'd have admitted he got it horribly wrong, but then this is the guy who missed a drugs tests, got paid a kings ransom for sitting on his arse for 9 months then instead of getting his head down and focusing on actual football when his ban was over he demanded a fecking pay rise, and got it.

To be fair mate i think the timing is important. You said he undermined Moyes by revealing private conversations publicly a month into Moyes reign.

But to be honest i can't find any quotes from Ferdinand actually confirming it happened, if you can mate by all means share them as i'd be genuinely interested. I don't know if it was in Ferdinands book but that wasn't released until late 2014.

I think you might be being harsh on Rio here mate and blaming him for something that was most likely just a rumour started on Twitter.

 

[stevoc]

At the time he was trying to get Yorke from my failing memory.

It was mate yeah and Kidd preferred John Hartson. Had that one came off i don't imagine Hartson would have formed a lethal partnership with Cole and spearheaded us to the Treble.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

It was mate yeah and Kidd preferred John Hartson. Had that one came off i don't imagine Hartson would have formed a lethal partnership with Cole and spearheaded us to the Treble.

Haha yeah history would have been different I would imagine.