Has never been the right manager for me and sorry Ole inners not afraid to say it at all, he should have gone at the end of the 18/19 season after his interim period but Paris made that Toy Story puppet panic and make him permanent
The EL final loss: a measured response
- Thread starter OleBoiii
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There’s more to be said. De Gea deserves both our respect and sympathy. He’s a great guy and a fine keeper. He stayed here while under family pressure and who knows what pressure. Everyone on that pitch gave of their best. Mata showed guts and commitment to the cause.
The whole story of Villarreal is something of a romantic dream. This final was ALL their dreams come true. So we were up against incredible passion and the know how of Emery. Yes I think OGS needed to sub people quicker. Yes we played a ridiculous amount of games. I do wonder about Rashford- the injury - (certainly we are playing the likes of Bruno and Maguire into the ground).
Rashford may have been distracted by phone calls with Obama, off-field causes etc. Solskjær seems unable to drop him. But as fans we have to move on. Avoid scapegoating anyone. And of course we need to speak up against the vile racism directed at players like Marcus.
The future is blurry. I don’t like the PR spin of the club about ‘four signings’, naming them and pricing them. That reads like briefed ready-cooked propaganda designed to get the owners out of jail and suppress fan anger.
More half-measures incoming. We need to keep up the chant: Out. Poison out. Leeches out. What’s the problem? Ole? Dave? Rashford? No. It’s them. @Glazersout..
The whole story of Villarreal is something of a romantic dream. This final was ALL their dreams come true. So we were up against incredible passion and the know how of Emery. Yes I think OGS needed to sub people quicker. Yes we played a ridiculous amount of games. I do wonder about Rashford- the injury - (certainly we are playing the likes of Bruno and Maguire into the ground).
Rashford may have been distracted by phone calls with Obama, off-field causes etc. Solskjær seems unable to drop him. But as fans we have to move on. Avoid scapegoating anyone. And of course we need to speak up against the vile racism directed at players like Marcus.
The future is blurry. I don’t like the PR spin of the club about ‘four signings’, naming them and pricing them. That reads like briefed ready-cooked propaganda designed to get the owners out of jail and suppress fan anger.
More half-measures incoming. We need to keep up the chant: Out. Poison out. Leeches out. What’s the problem? Ole? Dave? Rashford? No. It’s them. @Glazersout..
. Top 6 small club manager ultimately. SAF ran on empty and recommended him. Wasn’t backed. Not up to it.
Not backed. Treated disgracefully. No sun in Mankland for Di Maria. Eccentric, and ultimately, while a major upgrade on Moyes and did lay the groundwork for some changes we still benefit from today, not quite right, either. Past his best by the time we got him.
Massive oversimplification. It’s the received wisdom and the Ed narrative. I don’t like his philosophy, but... Jose wasn’t backed either, Like SAF, Moyes, LVG and Ole weren’t backed sufficiently.
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Glazers Out. Rebuild. Ole has flaws. He has - to some extent - grown into the job. It’s slow progress. But. Again, a but. Managers are only the symptom of the bigger, elephant-in-the-room illness and dysfunction at this great club.
In a one-off match upsets can happen, especially when the other team comes out with no intention to win the match in 90 minutes. Even the great Conte lost a final to Sevilla last year. We have lost more important finals (against Barcelona) before and those definitely hurt much more.
However, there were a lot of mistakes made by the manager and his coaches on the night and there is no way to sugar coat it. Not subbing Rashford at the 75 minutes mark or even earlier, once it was clear to everyone that his night was not going to get better was IMO a bad call. In extra time, we were so leggy and we should have brought on fresh legs to regain the momentum. Then when it came to penalties, hand to heart, who here had any confidence in DDG saving any penalty? I don't think even he had any confidence in himself. When we could bring on Mata & Telles for penalties, we could also have brought on Henderson to save penalties. Taking a brave call and getting it wrong would still be palatable, inaction knowing that the plan was not working left a lot to be desired.
However, there were a lot of mistakes made by the manager and his coaches on the night and there is no way to sugar coat it. Not subbing Rashford at the 75 minutes mark or even earlier, once it was clear to everyone that his night was not going to get better was IMO a bad call. In extra time, we were so leggy and we should have brought on fresh legs to regain the momentum. Then when it came to penalties, hand to heart, who here had any confidence in DDG saving any penalty? I don't think even he had any confidence in himself. When we could bring on Mata & Telles for penalties, we could also have brought on Henderson to save penalties. Taking a brave call and getting it wrong would still be palatable, inaction knowing that the plan was not working left a lot to be desired.
Spot on. Like everyone else, I’m fully behind the team and manager, but it’s perfectly reasonable to call-out the catastrophic mistakes made in this game (e.g. Rashford should’ve been the first player hooked; management of sudden death pens; and don’t get me started on the argument that we had no options on the bench). Despite clear signs of progress, Ole needs to demonstrate that he’s learning from past mistakes or he needs to be changed out.
Eh, did you notice the 5 Villareal subs who came on? They may have had something to do with that. Emery change half his outfield players. While Olé did nothing.
Dé Gea has saved penalties. Am not on Ole's side but keep it real.
Yes I think the occasion got the better of Ole. I noticed he seemed very highly strung at the beginning of the game which happens to him in big games. I think the stress blocks his ability to think tactically. He is unexperienced at this level and he will learn alot from the final. I don't know if he will be given enough time to learn through failure. I think he has to win something next year or at least come close in the league or champions league.
Whole game is a disaster. I see some fans blaming Glazer, that is just an excuse. Glazer has not been great but this lost is on Ole, nobody but Ole. Ole and Rashford, talks about trying to win a passionately but where is a end product. How can we lose? Villareal score from a set piece, we equalise yet we can't finish them off. Ole out!!!!! He is just not good enough.
We lost on penalties to a team that was well coached to sit back and soak up our pressure while marking Bruno out of the game in a one off game . City lost to Brighton and Leeds in one off matches that doesn't diminish the side or their manager. The Spanish league is a bloody good league I would say that Villa Real are better than either Brighton or Leeds. I would say that they are better than the likes of Arsenal at the moment.
The trouble with Olé as a manager is that he has no CV. He has no track record of success to fall back on.
He may learn but it's important to remember that most managers don't. Most managers do not become winners, managers actually have their best years early in their careers which is strange.
I dont think it's strange, I think it's just most managers if they have what it takes have some pretty excellent achievements early on (or show their class right from the start). People love citing Sir Alex on here, but he was a terrific manager before he came to United. Easy to give time to a guy that had a pretty great achievement at Aberdeen and then took over a club in the bottom half of the league.
It's strange in the sense that experience is valuable but only for a limited period of time, managers seemingly peak early and then decline slowly regardless of their talent or experience. Generally experience is something that gives you an edge for a long time but not in sport management.
I kind of disagree. To me, Fergie just kept getting better and better. He didn't make a single marquee signing in his last 8(?) years in charge and managed to adapt to a whole new world of football. He was a damn wizard near the end. He only lacked the beard
Having said that: Fergie was always great. It's just that he never really lost this greatness. And with added experience and even better people skills, he just kept improving until the end. I have no doubt in my mind that if he still was in charge(and healthy), then we'd be the best team in England(and possibly the world now that the power dynamic has shifted back to the PL).
You disagree? You realize that Ferguson is an outlier?I kind of disagree. To me, Fergie just kept getting better and better. He didn't make a single marquee signing in his last 8(?) years in charge and managed to adapt to a whole new world of football. He was a damn wizard near the end. He only lacked the beard
Having said that: Fergie was always great. It's just that he never really lost this greatness. And with added experience and even better people skills, he just kept improving until the end. I have no doubt in my mind that if he still was in charge(and healthy), then we'd be the best team in England(and possibly the world now that the power dynamic has shifted back to the PL).
Ah, I conflated your opinion with your conversation with @bosnian_red . My bad!
There seems to be a lot of outliers, though. Klopp is certainly no worse now than he was with Mainz or Dortmund. You could argue that he's better. The same could be said of Pep, as this City team(while very good) is nowhere near the same level as his Barca team in terms of player quality.
Perhaps the greatest managers never really lose it? It's still a bit too early to say when it comes to Pep and Klopp, though.
No he wasn't.
Shankly , Clough, Paisley and our own Sir Mat are all managers who were great throughout their managerial careers.
Then Ole or the players come out and beg the fans to stop protesting, support the team and all the rest. You can't have it both ways. Solskjaer should say that the whole club needs more investment in it, because we are way behind in every aspect right now. It would take years to fix all the neglected issues. The more we do nothing, the worse it will get.
Ole won't have an easier team to beat in a final then Villarreal. All the other defeats we had in cup competitions under him were with teams that are superior to Villarreal. And he somehow cocked it up. Proof, if any more is needed, he won't be the one to bring us back to our glory days.
And those are outliers, you just mentioned 5 managers out of literally thousands.
My take on the Final:
- despite the fact that Rashford's form has been abysmal for the past few months, he was selected to start; this in itself created an immediate problem - because no matter how Rashford played in the Final, Ole would not be able to substitute him because he is one of the club's penalty-taker's (i.e. he would be needed if the match went to a shootout).
- during 90 minutes it was blatantly obvious that Pogba kept on slowing our play down in midfield, when we were trying to transition from defence to attack; this continually meant that Villareal were able to organise and set themselves, and nullify any of our attempted attacking play.
- Bruno and Rashford were abysmal; and again because they are penalty-takers they could not be hooked.
- McTominay and Cavani were excellent, in that they gave the minimum you would expect from players in a Final... 100% effort. Well done to them.
- once the 90 minutes were up, it was clear we were gassed. Villareal had made 5 x substitutions up to the 90 minutes, whereas we had made none.
- once extra time arrived, we waited a further 10 minutes before making our first substitution - Fred for Greenwood, because Fred is trusted more at penalties than Greenwood.
- during extra time I don't recall us having a single attempt at goal, which I attribute to the players running on empty.
- once penalties arrived, De Gea was given notes from our coaching staff that stated the direction that Villareal's penalties were likely to be kicked. The notes for the first 6 penalties would prove to be 50% accurate, with crucially penalty no.6 (the 1st sudden death penalty) being correctly hit straight down the middle without an ounce of hesitation from the Villareal player (no stuttering run up, no waiting for De Gea to make his move, just eyes on the ball).
Inexplicably De Gea chose to ignore the notes, and fell to the side, instead of staying stood upright and saving the penalty, that would have been hit straight at him.
I blame Ole for the starting lineup:
- Rashford should have been benched due to his abysmal form
I blame Ole for his in-game management:
- not making a substitution until the 100th minute, when Villareal had made 5 x substitutions before 90 minutes, is absolutely unfair on the players who were completely gassed going into extra time.
I blame Bruno for not turning up, and his decision making:
- to win the coin toss and allow Villareal to go first in the shootout is pathetic; in that it statistically gave an advantage to Villareal (60% chance of winning by going first, compared to a 40% chance of winning by going second).
Also, from penalty no.5 onwards, Utd were taking penalties under added pressure - miss and the game would end there and then.
Contrast that to Villareal, who had less pressure, by knowing that if they missed, the game wouldn't have ended there and then because Utd would still have had to score their penalty.
I blame De Gea for not following the notes of our coaching team for the penalties:
- had De Gea followed the notes then Manchester United would have won.
Let me tell you now, I was absolutely proud of every one of our outfield players when they stepped up, and slotted away their penalties even with the added pressure that Bruno had put us under (by choosing to go second).
- despite the fact that Rashford's form has been abysmal for the past few months, he was selected to start; this in itself created an immediate problem - because no matter how Rashford played in the Final, Ole would not be able to substitute him because he is one of the club's penalty-taker's (i.e. he would be needed if the match went to a shootout).
- during 90 minutes it was blatantly obvious that Pogba kept on slowing our play down in midfield, when we were trying to transition from defence to attack; this continually meant that Villareal were able to organise and set themselves, and nullify any of our attempted attacking play.
- Bruno and Rashford were abysmal; and again because they are penalty-takers they could not be hooked.
- McTominay and Cavani were excellent, in that they gave the minimum you would expect from players in a Final... 100% effort. Well done to them.
- once the 90 minutes were up, it was clear we were gassed. Villareal had made 5 x substitutions up to the 90 minutes, whereas we had made none.
- once extra time arrived, we waited a further 10 minutes before making our first substitution - Fred for Greenwood, because Fred is trusted more at penalties than Greenwood.
- during extra time I don't recall us having a single attempt at goal, which I attribute to the players running on empty.
- once penalties arrived, De Gea was given notes from our coaching staff that stated the direction that Villareal's penalties were likely to be kicked. The notes for the first 6 penalties would prove to be 50% accurate, with crucially penalty no.6 (the 1st sudden death penalty) being correctly hit straight down the middle without an ounce of hesitation from the Villareal player (no stuttering run up, no waiting for De Gea to make his move, just eyes on the ball).
Inexplicably De Gea chose to ignore the notes, and fell to the side, instead of staying stood upright and saving the penalty, that would have been hit straight at him.
I blame Ole for the starting lineup:
- Rashford should have been benched due to his abysmal form
I blame Ole for his in-game management:
- not making a substitution until the 100th minute, when Villareal had made 5 x substitutions before 90 minutes, is absolutely unfair on the players who were completely gassed going into extra time.
I blame Bruno for not turning up, and his decision making:
- to win the coin toss and allow Villareal to go first in the shootout is pathetic; in that it statistically gave an advantage to Villareal (60% chance of winning by going first, compared to a 40% chance of winning by going second).
Also, from penalty no.5 onwards, Utd were taking penalties under added pressure - miss and the game would end there and then.
Contrast that to Villareal, who had less pressure, by knowing that if they missed, the game wouldn't have ended there and then because Utd would still have had to score their penalty.
I blame De Gea for not following the notes of our coaching team for the penalties:
- had De Gea followed the notes then Manchester United would have won.
Let me tell you now, I was absolutely proud of every one of our outfield players when they stepped up, and slotted away their penalties even with the added pressure that Bruno had put us under (by choosing to go second).
This is what broke my trust for Solskjaer. It's unacceptable to lose a final to this type of team, they are absolutely dogshit and my intentions are not to disrespect them, they just lack quality. Yet we did feck all for 120 minutes, literally. It's a disgrace.
I'm pretty sure that if we start digging then we'll find plenty of managers who had a better middle/end of their career. If the average manager manages for 20 years, then your claim is that most them peak in the first 5-6 years. I honestly don't think that's true, but I can't be arsed to do the research
Yes they are outliers but that is what it should be to be an elite. Anybody else is just a manager who won something. To be an elite manager you need to not only win things but continue to evolve when the game changes to counter your style of play.
And most managers even elite ones do not evolve, the ones that evolve and have long plateaus around their peak are outliers among outliers.
We are talking about the 5 managers who tied up at least 50 years of English football. It's not about being an outlier it's about dominating in your time period.
Not to mention some of the greatest to ever do it. Having said that some stats to back up the claim would be nice.
That is what they played for. They went out to get to penalties.
Man City lost to Brighton the other week but that doesn't mean that Brighton are better than City. Anybody can lose to anybody in a one off match.
I respect the Op.
mall fair comments and reason for optimism, even though we were terrible and beat ourselves on the night.
mall fair comments and reason for optimism, even though we were terrible and beat ourselves on the night.
There is an article about it in the telegraph, iirc the most successful managers have won titles by age 43 and the average age of a title winning manager is 50. If I remember correctly you have the same trend in the NFL and Rugby.
You can't compare two things that are completely different:
- Man Utd played against Villareal in a European Final
- Man City played against Brighton in a league match, where the league title had already been decided (Man City were already league champions)
Therefore Man Utd were playing in a competition that had not yet been decided....
Whereas Man City were playing a match in a competition that had already been decided.
If you can't differentiate between the two, and you still want to compare them both, then they are still completely different matches:
- Man City had a player sent off after 10 minutes; Man Utd did not
If you want to compare the Europa League Final, to another match, then you would need to find another Cup Final in which:
- the underdog team had 1 shot on target in the whole match, and lifted the trophy
Even when underdogs Wigan beat City 1-0 in the FA Cup Final in 2013, Wigan managed 7 shots on target.
We faced 1 shot on target by underdogs Villareal in the whole match of a European Final, and we lost!
Well when you put it like that .
Cheers. Article in question if anyone is interested. Just click on the x button if you wanna get past the pay wall:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...avent-won-trophy-43-years-old-probably-never/
They played an exceedingly negative game. Even shit teams are hard to beat when they play 11 behind the ball, and Emery obviously knows what he's doing organising his team to do so. Really annoying for us but ultimately we had to break them and we didn't
It's a shocker that we've only had 2 consecutive top 4 finishes once in 8 seasons post Fergie.
That is startling.
That is startling.
No manager gets eveyone he wants. Jose got a lot, though, in his first two summers. LVG got a lot, even if some of his targets just weren't attainable even for Manchestet United.
Funny stat, the average age of a Superbowl winner as head coach is the same than the average age of a PL winner, 50 years old. One of the theories that I have heard about why younger managers are more successful is that winning even if you are talented requires a level of dedication that only a young-ish person can provide.
Okay.
The Brighton match was the last time they lost. Let's go back to December when West Brom drew with City(like we drew with Villa Real) the league wasn't decided then.
If the league had been decided that was not the point. The point was that anybody can get a result against anybody.
We lost the league back in the day because we could beat West Ham on the last day of the season(under SAF). Anybody can lose in a one off match regardless of the quality of the teams involved or the quality of the manager.