The EL final loss: a measured response

[OleBoiii]

The football forum is a mess now and it's probably gonna be this way until the Euros. Here's a measured response to the big topics related to our EL final loss:

Our opponents
I'm starting with this point because it's possibly the most annoying one. I know that the English bias is strong both in the media and in here, but people are talking about Villarreal as if they're a complete walk-over. It's a La Liga team that has made the EL final and beaten Arsenal over two games to get there. And it's their only chance to get CL football, which means that they are gonna have an additional boost. On top of this, Emery seems to have the EL figured out. This was his 4th(!) EL win in just 7 years. Give the man and his team some goddamn respect.
Yes, we were still the favorites to win. But the gap between us is not nearly as big as some of you make it out to be. Not by a long shot.

The starting lineup
I don't think you could argue too much about the starting lineup. Given the injuries, I think it's possibly our strongest starting XI. There will always be disagreements, though. Especially in hindsight if we lose or draw. This happened on a consistent basis when Fergie was in charge as well. It's the nature of fans on the internet. They always seem to know better than the manager, regardless of who's in charge.

The late substitutions
We were the best team in that second half. Things were clicking(apart from in the final third of the pitch) at least up until the 75th minute or so. And our 4 best players were(in my opinion): McTominay, Shaw, AWB and Pogba.
Who should come off and who should come on? Keep in mind that we are chasing a goal and our only attacking "threats" on the bench are James, Mata and Amad. In case you're confused: there is no good sub to make.
McTominay was on fire during that period so taking him off was not an option. Switching Pogba with VDB or Fred is a defensive move and we needed goals. James has been criticized all year, so if you claim that he was the solution then you're simply lying to push your agenda. Amad is just a kid and he's barely played for us. You could argue that switching Rashford with Fred/VDB and putting Pogba out left was a good solution, but that is also a defensive move and only serves the purpose of fresh(but weaker) legs. Also...

Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Greenwood was better than Rashford, but only up until a certain point. After the 70th minute or so Greenwood was gradually becoming as invisible as Rashford, if not more. At this point it all comes down to experience and how much energy you have left. It was the right choice, overall.

So who's to blame?
Why does it have to be one single reason? Why do we need a scapegoat? We simply lost an even game against a decent opponent who were playing for their life(in this case: CL football) and defending their goal with all they got. We were not outplayed. We weren't even the worst team. And we lost after 22 penalties.

No trophies, though
A trophy, even a minor one, would certainly have been nice. But let's not start to pretend that it's the end of the world for us. No manager post Fergie has made the top 4 and won a trophy in the same season. If you were given a choice between a comfortable top 4 finish or the EL trophy, most of you would agree that the former is a much stronger indicator of progress. And quite frankly, the only reason any of you would choose the EL trophy over 2nd is because it also leads to CL football. If the stakes were "comfortable top 4 finish" vs "FA Cup win", almost everyone would choose the former, even though the FA Cup isn't that much worse than the EL. You can move the goal posts all you want, but the long term focus is always the PL and CL.

A final positive note
We have made the top 4 for two consecutive seasons for the first time post Fergie. Quite comfortably as well! We also have a very young team, which can only be good for the long term. The summer transfer window will largely decide the outcome of next season, but let's not complain about lack of transfers already in May, shall we? Take a deep breath and enjoy the upcoming summer!


_______________


EDIT:

Disclaimer, in case it wasn't clear:

I still think we played badly. I do think Ole and the players(our attackers in particular) needs to take a fair bit of blame. But I also find the criticism over the top. I also disagree strongly with some of the points being brought up(which I have addressed in the topic).

That is the nature of a measured response. You can criticise the manager and the performance without painting the whole thing as a complete disaster.

 

[King7Eric]

It's pointless trying to get a measured response on here, especially this close to last night. The armchair tacticians and coaches are all out in force and nothing sensible is gonna placate them.

We had a bad day at the office yesterday, yet that is enough for some to forget the improvements made over the course of a season.

 

[Berbasbullet]

This thread is going to be a bloodbath.

 

[sullydnl]

Those most measured thing I can say is that if we're successful in the coming seasons then I won't care in the slightest about yesterday. I know silverware is silverware but even still, it's the UEFA cup. We shouldn't even be in the damn competition.

What was dispiriting about yesterday was that the things that ultimately cost us were issues that have been ever-present all season, which then casts the entire season in a more negative light. It would be one thing if it was just a bad day at the office but it's another when it's a culmination of all the season's negatives that we've failed to address.

It also changes the mood around the club quite a bit. Not that finishing second and winning the UEFA cup would have massively bolstered Solskjaer in itself (just look at Mourinho) but realistically it won't take much of a rocky start next season for things to turn very negative. The cup I can live without but the positive momentum would have been nice.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

To be honest, for some reason, i was not bothered by the loss of the EL Final as much as I was bothered by say the loss to Liverpool at home for example, when I think about it, I wanted the team to secure a comfortable top 4 this season, considering the fact that the team played 61 games, and the team had a crazy schedule of playing twice a week the entire season except for the International weeks (that includes trips to Turkey!!!), it was reported that the team didn't have many chances to work on the training pitch as much as possible this season.

However, next season, I truly expect us to challenge for the league and to go at least to QF in CL, those are the minimums, given we will get a full pre-season, Ole is fully backed with the players he need (RW, CB, CM/DM) and they are brought before the pre-season so the new players can be integrated into the 1st team sooner than later.

 

[jderbyshire]

I was really surprised in the days leading up how many fans were completely dismissing Villarreal.

 

[FahadiHossein]

I think the English-bias is strong here when everyone says how we should walk over Villarreal like they were nothing.
Villarreal had 3 rejects from EPL, but this does not mean that they are bad players; it's that EPL never gave them a chance to shine. Iago Aspas, Mikel Merino to name a few. I do think that it is the La Liga mid-table style, in which they take in returnees and gel the team to play through each other's strengths and weaknesses, whereas the 'ESL clubs' in England cut you off immediately. The La Liga is by no means a poor league and these players performing in La Liga shows you exactly why the EPL clubs wanted them in the first place.
United fans are acting as if we are big and rich enough to beat them with ease. Firstly, we are a club that has money siphoned out by the American owners, and we are not as rich as people think. Even LvG said that.
Secondly, we are big and rich, but we have not spent money wisely with a bench now that rarely plays and we have a merry-go-round of players (Schnerdlin, Mikh, Dalot etc.). We were incredibly lucky that Liverpool had an injury crisis and Spurs and Chelsea imploded. Tell me before this season began that we had a better squad than Liverpool, Chelsea or even Spurs?

 

[11101]

The football forum is a mess now and it's probably gonna be this way until the Euros. Here's a measured response to the big topics related to our EL final loss:


Our opponents
I'm starting with this point because it's possibly the most annoying one. I know that the English bias is strong both in the media and in here, but people are talking about Villarreal as if they're a complete walk-over. It's a La Liga team that has made the EL final and beaten Arsenal over two games to get there. And it's their only chance to get CL football, which means that they are gonna have an additional boost. On top of this, Emery seems to have the EL figured out. This was his 4th(!) EL win in just 7 years. Give the man and his team some goddamn respect.
Yes, we were still the favorites to win. But the gap between us is not nearly as big as some of you make it out to be. Not by a long shot.


The starting lineup
I don't think you could argue too much about the starting lineup. Given the injuries, I think it's possibly our strongest starting XI. There will always be disagreements, though. Especially in hindsight if we lose or draw. This happened on a consistent basis when Fergie was in charge as well. It's the nature of fans on the internet. They always seem to know better than the manager, regardless of who's in charge.


The late substitutions
We were the best team in that second half. Things were clicking(apart from in the final third of the pitch) at least up until the 75th minute or so. And our 4 best players were(in my opinion): McTominay, Shaw, AWB and Pogba.
Who should come off and who should come on? Keep in mind that we are chasing a goal and our only attacking "threats" on the bench are James, Mata and Amad. In case you're confused: there is no good sub to make.
McTominay was on fire during that period so taking him off was not an option. Switching Pogba with VDB or Fred is a defensive move and we needed goals. James has been criticized all year, so if you claim that he was the solution then you're simply lying to push your agenda. Amad is just a kid and he's barely played for us. You could argue that switching Rashford with Fred/VDB and putting Pogba out left was a good solution, but that is also a defensive move and only serves the purpose of fresh(but weaker) legs. Also...


Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Greenwood was better than Rashford, but only up until a certain point. After the 70th minute or so Greenwood was gradually becoming as invisible as Rashford, if not more. At this point it all comes down to experience and how much energy you have left. It was the right choice, overall.


So who's to blame?
Why does it have to be one single reason? Why do we need a scapegoat? We simply lost an even game against a decent opponent who were playing for their life(in this case: CL football) and defending their goal with all they got. We were not outplayed. We weren't even the worst team. And we lost after 22 penalties.


No trophies, though
A trophy, even a minor one, would certainly have been nice. But let's not start to pretend that it's the end of the world for us. No manager post Fergie has made the top 4 and won a trophy in the same season. If you were given a choice between a comfortable top 4 finish or the EL trophy, most of you would agree that the former is a much stronger indicator of progress. And quite frankly, the only reason any of you would choose the EL trophy over 2nd is because it also leads to CL football. If the stakes were "comfortable top 4 finish" vs "FA Cup win", almost everyone would choose the former, even though the FA Cup isn't that much worse than the EL. You can move the goal posts all you want, but the long term focus is always the PL and CL.


A final positive note
We have made the top 4 for two consecutive seasons for the first time post Fergie. Quite comfortably as well! We also have a very young team, which can only be good for the long term. The summer transfer window will largely decide the outcome of next season, but let's not complain about lack of transfers already in May, shall we? Take a deep breath and enjoy the upcoming summer!

Our opponents
I disagree. Villareal were awful and we absolutely dominated them in the first 90 mins, until we tired and Ole froze. We had 65% possession, more passes, more shots, everything. We just couldn't find our way through a 9 man defence.


The starting lineup
Again, i disagree. I and plenty of others posted before the game that we were worried about Lindelof and Fred with no screening midfielder, and McTominay and Pogba in a two. We were right. We've played a certain way with success this season but we changed it for the biggest game.


The late substitutions
Why keep a tired Pogba on so long if he wasn't going to take a penalty?
Why leave Rashford on all game?
If Greenwood wasn't taking a penalty, why not take him off earlier?
James might not be Maradona but he's effective against tired legs.
Which subs were the right ones could be a matter of debate. But what's not a matter for debate is doing absolutely nothing, and that's what Ole did. He froze.


Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
If Greenwood was invisible after 70 minutes, why wait until minute 100 to sub him?
Rashford was invisible all game, but we don't sub him at all?


So who's to blame?
Ole.

 

[Desert Eagle]

The football forum is a mess now and it's probably gonna be this way until the Euros. Here's a measured response to the big topics related to our EL final loss:

Our opponents
I'm starting with this point because it's possibly the most annoying one. I know that the English bias is strong both in the media and in here, but people are talking about Villarreal as if they're a complete walk-over. It's a La Liga team that has made the EL final and beaten Arsenal over two games to get there. And it's their only chance to get CL football, which means that they are gonna have an additional boost. On top of this, Emery seems to have the EL figured out. This was his 4th(!) EL win in just 7 years. Give the man and his team some goddamn respect.
Yes, we were still the favorites to win. But the gap between us is not nearly as big as some of you make it out to be. Not by a long shot.

The late substitutions
We were the best team in that second half. Things were clicking(apart from in the final third of the pitch) at least up until the 75th minute or so. And our 4 best players were(in my opinion): McTominay, Shaw, AWB and Pogba.
Who should come off and who should come on? Keep in mind that we are chasing a goal and our only attacking "threats" on the bench are James, Mata and Amad. In case you're confused: there is no good sub to make.
McTominay was on fire during that period so taking him off was not an option. Switching Pogba with VDB or Fred is a defensive move and we needed goals. James has been criticized all year, so if you claim that he was the solution then you're simply lying to push your agenda. Amad is just a kid and he's barely played for us. You could argue that switching Rashford with Fred/VDB and putting Pogba out left was a good solution, but that is also a defensive move and only serves the purpose of fresh(but weaker) legs. Also...

Why did Ole sub Greenwood instead of Rashford?
Greenwood was better than Rashford, but only up until a certain point. After the 70th minute or so Greenwood was gradually becoming as invisible as Rashford, if not more. At this point it all comes down to experience and how much energy you have left. It was the right choice, overall.

I'll just address these three points.

1. We were heavy favorites before the game and rightly so. Not many thought it'd be a spanking but everybody expected us to win. Being a la Liga team that beat arsenal means feck all.

2. You do realize he ended up subbing Greenwood for Fred right. Was that a good sub by your weird definition?

3. I have to say I admire your creative writing here. Greenwood was only better than rashford for 70 minutes and was becoming just as bad as him so it became about experience and energy therefore it's the right sub. Funny how he didn't make any other subs till the end since energy is so important.

 

[cyberman]

I think the myth of Pogba playing centrally died last night. His creativity adds little when so far from goal. We really need to play our best players in their best positions and build around them with our transfer targets in the summer.
Pogba from the left, Sancho right, Cavani down the middle and rotate in Mason and Rashford very other week.
Set pieces are a glaring problem so bring in a Varane and lets get fecking organised. We give up too many headed goals and its more basic problem to solve.
We really arent that far away being being a top side and this 11 should never have been asked to go another season on their own. We arent good enough to over come having 2 years worth of gametape used against us. Itd a credit to the staff and players that we even acheived what we did and its up to the transfer committee to help them out. Give us a proper chance ffs.

 

[acnumber9]

Who decides that your response is the measured one?

 

[Dec9003]

I agree with a lot of what you said, except for the subs part. I think watching how Rashford got on, I’d have gambled on James or perhaps Mata having 20 minutes in regular time to make something happen. Obviously they might not have done anything, but it’s not an agenda to think that they might.

 

[PoTMS]

Who decides that your response is the measured one?

Exactly. The pathetic constant moving of goalposts is getting tiring. There's always an excuse or rationale behind why we have failed and keep on failing. Why can't you just call a spade a spade and admit the coaching team fecked up yesterday?

 

[Giggsyking]

It is crazy the amount of "measured responses threads" the "rational non reactive threads" has been written since yesterday with only one purpose, to defend a manager not of the standard required to be at en elite club. We lost yesterday as we did lose 5 semifinals, we have a mediocre manager, get over it.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Potential to be worst thread of the year this one. There’s absolutely no accountability.

 

[Ish]

Not sure that's too measured of a response, in fairness OP. Just seems/reads like a "defend Ole" at all costs thread.

Of course the reaction after the defeat is OTT - especially this close after the match. Fact is, winning (or losing) that EL trophy was always going to be weaponized by "both" camps to push their in/out agenda(s) - no matter how much they told you they didn't care about this cup beforehand.

A measured response would have seen a few aspects Ole/the team were absolutely accountable for, and some other aspects, as mentioned in the OP, where the reaction is completely OTT and a more reasonable view should be taken.

Personally, I am not even Ole's most ardent defender on here (I am almost a fence sitter, if you will) but i never put too much stock in the EL in the first place - but it would have been a great win for the manager and the team nonetheless. But we were favorites for this cup from the moment we entered into the competition. Should have won it, but oh well.

 

[MadMike]

I know that the English bias is strong both in the media and in here,

It's pretty much the opposite. There's positive bias towards Spanish teams being "technical" while English teams being seen as clobbers that are always overachieving.

This tie was the equivalent of a final between Real Madrid and West Ham. Would Real Madrid fans not be outraged and have a bloody inquisition about why their team lost a final to West Ham? A team that hadn't been to a European final before and that was put together with a fraction of the budget?

Would you call those people expecting a Real Madrid to win or viewing failure as a disaster, to be Spanish-biased? Or would you say that it's a realistic expectation and grounded response? Because if it's the former, then OK. But if it's the latter that's just anti-English bias making anything continental appear somewhat better and more refined. It ain't.

 

[Tom Cato]

Who decides that your response is the measured one?

Because it's analytical and not a angry oneliner. Posts that don't argue in absolutes and blamegame are in its nature, measured.

 

[FreddieTheReddie]

Thanks for this thread, it feels safe to be here.

 

[talking robot]

Losing hurts, and should hurt, as the club expects to win trophies. Last night takes some of the gloss off our clear progress in other areas, but won't (and shouldn't) derail Solskjaer in the long term. He's more than earned his chance to go again next year given the consecutive top four finishes. The result may even help him convince the board to spend some cash on high quality signings this summer.

For me personally, this was a test of character for some, and I think they failed. The performance (more than result itself) highlighted the lack of leadership and winning mentality through the spine of the team. De Gea is weak. Lindelof is weak. Pogba is weak. And Rashford is weak. These players are just not winners. Greenwood, Fernandes, Cavani, Shaw, and even Mctominay have a fight about them that the former 4 simply lack. I'm not talking about talent here. I'm talking about drive, fight, and a refusal to accept defeat.

 

[MadMike]

Not sure that's too measured of a response, in fairness OP. Just seems/reads like a "defend Ole" at all costs thread.

Bingo.

Apparently a bench with £100m worth of Ole signings has no options to bring on against Villarreal but that's somehow not on Ole. Neither James nor Amad could be brought for a Rashford that was losing the ball with every touch, they're just not good enough, but yet cost as much as the Villarreal team put together. "But no Amad is good, he's just too young and inexperienced" yet somehow Villarreal started with an 18yo up front because their striker was injured.

The degree to which reality is distorted to fit the narrative is astounding on here.

 

[Idxomer]

The Villareal team is rubbish and yesterday proved that.

Ole's ability to make every game this season a coin toss is a huge problem which ultimately cost us what should've been an easy trophy.

 

[Denis79]

Moving goalposts again? We lost, it happens but yesterday was dreadful especially from our coaches.

 

[DULLAGHAN]

It's down to one thing, either Ole is tactically inept or he was sending a message to the board. You can make your own decisions, because I honestly don't know anymore

 

[Keefy18]

The starting lineup
Again, i disagree. I and plenty of others posted before the game that we were worried about Lindelof and Fred with no screening midfielder, and McTominay and Pogba in a two. We were right. We've played a certain way with success this season but we changed it for the biggest game.

Ugh pretty sure you couldn't be more wrong.

McTominay and Pogba were easily our two best players last night.

Utterly ridiculous to try attempt to try say otherwise.

 

[mosschopps]

The frightning thing about last night is Ole dosent seem to be learning. He makes the same miss stakes over and over again, late or no subs, cant break down low block teams, wont change in game tactics. Im all for Ole in but its a big problem that he's seems to gone as far as he can as a manager in terms of ability. Its not the loss thats the concern its type of loss it was which seems to be a recurring theme.

 

[Gomes]

"A measured response" from someone who tried to argue that West Brom has a better squad than United not that long ago.

 

[Ish]

Bingo.

Apparently a bench with £100m worth of Ole signings has no options to bring on against Villarreal but that's somehow not on Ole. Neither James nor Amad could be brought for a Rashford that was losing the ball with every touch, they're just not good enough, but yet cost as much as the Villarreal team put together. "But no Amad is good, he's just too young and inexperienced" yet somehow Villarreal started with an 18yo up front because their striker was injured.

The degree to which reality is distorted to fit the narrative is astounding on here.

Yep, agreed. Too many are too fixed on both extreme sides of the in/out wagon and can see zero good (or bad) from the manager/team, and somehow they still think they're the voice of reason to a degree. There's nothing wrong with being in/out IMO, as long as you have your reasoning. But there's absolutely zero need to twist narratives to suit an agenda.

 

[Ish]

"A measured response" from someone who tried to argue that West Brom has a better squad than United not that long ago.

Surely this can't be true? Must have been some sort of WUM?

 

[The Hilton]

Nice try OP, but there are too many toys flying out of too many prams for this kind of sensible post at the moment.

 

[11101]

Ugh pretty sure you couldn't be more wrong.

McTominay and Pogba were easily our two best players last night.

Utterly ridiculous to try attempt to try say otherwise.

A player can have a good game whilst the unit they're in performs poorly. Our midfield didn't provide much protection to the centre backs and failed to link the attack. McTominay covering every blade of grass doesn't change that.

And at the bolded.

 

[OleBoiii]

"A measured response" from someone who tried to argue that West Brom has a better squad than United not that long ago.

Why are you spending your precious limited newbie posts on lies?

 

[Vidyoyo]

I think the English-bias is strong here when everyone says how we should walk over Villarreal like they were nothing.
Villarreal had 3 rejects from EPL, but this does not mean that they are bad players; it's that EPL never gave them a chance to shine. Iago Aspas, Mikel Merino to name a few. I do think that it is the La Liga mid-table style, in which they take in returnees and gel the team to play through each other's strengths and weaknesses, whereas the 'ESL clubs' in England cut you off immediately. The La Liga is by no means a poor league and these players performing in La Liga shows you exactly why the EPL clubs wanted them in the first place.
United fans are acting as if we are big and rich enough to beat them with ease. Firstly, we are a club that has money siphoned out by the American owners, and we are not as rich as people think. Even LvG said that.
Secondly, we are big and rich, but we have not spent money wisely with a bench now that rarely plays and we have a merry-go-round of players (Schnerdlin, Mikh, Dalot etc.). We were incredibly lucky that Liverpool had an injury crisis and Spurs and Chelsea imploded. Tell me before this season began that we had a better squad than Liverpool, Chelsea or even Spurs?

Good post. We were clearly over-confident and Villarreal showed us why we shouldn't have been. I'm sure they were very confident having just beaten Arsenal and knowing that a low block can work extremely effectively against us.

Don't get me wrong because we're the better team and should have dispatched them but, well, look at what happened in the FA Cup between Leicester and Chelsea. The better team on paper did not win.

Preparation in finals needs to be perfect and I guess last night it wasn't. Certain players didn't perform, or did according to what we've seen before, and the selection - particularly not having attacking bench options - had a negative outcome.

We live and learn, and go again, I suppose. My main take is that individuals should not be untouchable. If they're playing poorly, you have to haul them off at some point (or have one exception to the rule, Bruno).

 

[Tomuś]

We were 'preparing' for this game for more than a month I swear. Seemingly throwing other games with our eyes set on the final.

Only natural we look like clowns now.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Potential to be worst thread of the year this one. There’s absolutely no accountability.

Yeah it's too soon for reason for some as the thread I made also shows. Why do people want a scape goat? Because it's easy and it's a nice dream to have that all you need to do is change one person and then everything will be rosy again. Happens in politics all the time. Long processes of squad building are painful for fans and the obsession I see in the press with tactics, I'm not even sure there are that many that understand what it means to build a squad capable of wining multiple trophies. The decade it took City to be where it is, the 3 years it took Kloop not to mention SAF, all are forgotten. DDG makes a save and 95% of the criticism of today is not there.

Too many underestimate how crap this squad was when Ole took over and what a massive job it is to go back to the top and hopefully stay there.

 

[JPRouve]

My measured response is that I see Ole the same way I see Pochettino, they are both seemingly good coaches but neither are winners, they thrive as the underdogs, they have shown the ability to build solid yet uninspiring sides. Yesterday we were the better team, we dominated for the better part of 90 minutes but failed to push a little bit harder when we hit their solid defense, Ole failed to make in game adjustments too. At some point it reminded me the Sevilla games last season.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Because it's analytical and not a angry oneliner. Posts that don't argue in absolutes and blamegame are in its nature, measured.

Then surely the following is a measured response?

Ole should be replaced because he has consistently failed in pressure scenarios where we are heavy favourites. United should not have the sole aim of a top four finish to show ‘success’ and therefore it is logical now he’s had so much time, to try someone else?

Yeah it's too soon for reason for some as the thread I made also shows. Why do people want a scape goat? Because it's easy and it's a nice dream to have that all you need to do is change one person and then everything will be rosy again. Happens in politics all the time. Long processes of squad building are painful for fans and the obsession I see in the press with tactics, I'm not even sure there are that many that understand what it means to build a squad capable of wining multiple trophies. The decade it took City to be where it is, the 3 years it took Kloop not to mention SAF, all are forgotten. DDG makes a save and 95% of the criticism of today is not there.

Too many underestimate how crap this squad was when Ole took over and what a massive job it is to go back to the top and hopefully stay there.

I mean he took over the squad which had recently won the competition we just lost and added 300m or so…

 

[bsCallout]

Losing hurts, and should hurt, as the club expects to win trophies. Last night takes some of the gloss off our clear progress in other areas, but won't (and shouldn't) derail Solskjaer in the long term. He's more than earned his chance to go again next year given the consecutive top four finishes. The result may even help him convince the board to spend some cash on high quality signings this summer.

For me personally, this was a test of character for some, and I think they failed. The performance (more than result itself) highlighted the lack of leadership and winning mentality through the spine of the team. De Gea is weak. Lindelof is weak. Pogba is weak. And Rashford is weak. These players are just not winners. Greenwood, Fernandes, Cavani, Shaw, and even Mctominay have a fight about them that the former 4 simply lack. I'm not talking about talent here. I'm talking about drive, fight, and a refusal to accept defeat.

I wouldn't call Rashford weak, he's played with an injury since September. I agree with everything else though.

 

[Godfather]

It is crazy the amount of "measured responses threads" the "rational non reactive threads" has been written since yesterday with only one purpose, to defend a manager not of the standard required to be at en elite club. We lost yesterday as we did lose 5 semifinals, we have a mediocre manager, get over it.

Bang on. Calling your own opinion measured because you don't agree with other people's views is quite a take...

To point 1: Disagree. Villareal are as average as it comes, we are just shit at breaking down teams that sit deep. This has been the case ever since Ole took over and couldn't be repaired by him at all.
To point 2: Rashford hasn't deserved to start in the final. His form was abysmal and it showed during the game too.
To point 3 and 4: Greenwood was still miles better than Rashford when he came off. Especially his decision making was on another level. Rashford managed to make the wrong one pretty much everytime he got on the ball. Mostly running into his defender.
To point 5: To blame is our inept management and players that shit their pants when it matters.

 

[jackal&hyde]

My measured response is that I see Ole the same way I see Pochettino, they are both seemingly good coaches but neither are winners, they thrive as the underdogs, they have shown the ability to build solid yet uninspiring sides. Yesterday we were the better team, we dominated for the better part of 90 minutes but failed to push a little bit harder when we hit their solid defense, Ole failed to make in game adjustments too. At some point it reminded me the Sevilla games last season.

This could be true but it's to early to tell. We've improved significantly over last season so we'll need to see where we are next. At this point only City have had a better PL season the us with a much better squad.