The F1 Thread 2012 Season

[Rado_N]

Well the governing body of the sport have stated that he didn't break a rule, so the rest of your post is redundant really.

That said, your football analogy doesn't work, as a retrospective red card doesn't alter a result. A better one would be to say, do you think offside goals should be struck off after a match?

 

[Zarlak]

He obviously broke a rule Nick. If someone slapped the ball away with his hand in the box and FA said it wasn't a handball, it still is.

It didn't get punished, but he still did it.

 

[Cheesy]

So basically Vettel has cheated a world title? Credible for the sport...

 

[Rado_N]

The stewards have said it was a yellow and red flag, Ferrari have said it was a yellow and red flag, Brundle has said it was a yellow and red flag, I'm quite sure they've seen more than we have on the matter.

 

[Zarlak]

So basically Vettel has cheated a world title? Credible for the sport...

No he didn't cheat the world title. He was good for every victory this year that effectively sealed it for him.

He was comfortably ahead, and Alonso needed a miracle to win, it just so happened that that miracle came today and it should have been 'fair play' and Alonso getting his miracle but some very dodgy things went Vettel's way that handed it him to get him out of trouble.

Still disappointed in MSC. Team orders are one thing but when you've got other drivers you're friendly with on the grid helping you to win by gifting you places and winning becomes about who you're mates with, rather than about racing and skill it's a disappointing thing to see. Vettel should have done it on his own merit. I can't blame Vettel for that though because he may not have even known it was going to happen.

The yellow flag thing is another thing Vettel can be blamed for but shit happens.

 

[20solskjaer]

They've said it was a yellow/red flag because its the easiest thing to do, had he not been fighting for the title he would have been given a penalty for both the pass under yellows and the accident at the start, they were never going to hand the title to either driver by making a call on a penalty like that

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Pos Team Name Value Total
1st (481st) Billy and Jack Racing Paul Dyson 47.90 658 610 11440
2nd (522nd) Senna's Lotus Paul L...... 47.90 658 610 11440
3rd (1447th) Dunners Devils Jasper D...... 42.10 392 552 10835
4th (1867th) Energy Drink F1 Leg End 43.55 587 394 10643
5th (3683rd) Eightball Racing Nick Hall 44.25 528 557 10201
6th (4053rd) Stretch the Gap Hilton Baartman 44.05 621 390 10155
7th (4307th) Lets All Laugh At Massa... Mark D...... 42.30 440 642 10124
8th (4436th) Iceman15 Flying Finn 45.60 664 658 10084
9th (6852nd) Elbow-Licking at 200MPH Ed Weatherall 40.70 498 611 9227
10th (6867th) TeamLarsson Darren C...... 40.70 498 611 9227

Top spot , not bad after being near the bottom last season.

 

[Leg-End]

I beat Nick, thats all that matters.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

How about next season, we had something to play for.
Maybe a £5 per team winner takes all.

 

[17Larsson]

I won it last year and bottom this year.

I agree with the money thing, it would definitely make it a bit more interesting next year

 

[Pscholes18]

Spoiler

FFS hahahahaha

 

[senorgregster]

Bernie wanted Vettel to win...

If anything the Ferrari International Assistance did all they could to get Alonso to P1. Safety car right after Alonso's radio and then the silly drive through for Hulk. Ridiculous. Vettel didn't pass under yellow else Ferrari would gave shown evidence and not stated it was an oil/condition warning.

 

[senorgregster]

They've said it was a yellow/red flag because its the easiest thing to do, had he not been fighting for the title he would have been given a penalty for both the pass under yellows and the accident at the start, they were never going to hand the title to either driver by making a call on a penalty like that

Ferrari stated the exact same thing - an oil flag easy for them too?

 

[Dargonk]

The stewards have said it was a yellow and red flag, Ferrari have said it was a yellow and red flag, Brundle has said it was a yellow and red flag, I'm quite sure they've seen more than we have on the matter.

When all those parties including the ones that would benefit from it actually being a yellow flag say it wasn't you have to accept that it wasn't actually a yellow flag.

There seem to be some very bitter people in this thread at the moment. Vettel did well to win the WC. He might have had the best car for periods, but at the beginning he clearly didn't which a lot of people keep ignoring/forgetting.

 

[Amar__]

 

[Zarlak]

 

[Zarlak]

When all those parties including the ones that would benefit from it actually being a yellow flag say it wasn't you have to accept that it wasn't actually a yellow flag.

There seem to be some very bitter people in this thread at the moment. Vettel did well to win the WC. He might have had the best car for periods, but at the beginning he clearly didn't which a lot of people keep ignoring/forgetting.

Here we see a yellow and red flag.

So yeah, yellow and red.... but.... just after that which is plain to see for everybody with eyes.

Unless I'm colour blind, those are yellow flags indicating no overtaking. On top of the solitary yellow and red flag before the yellow flag yellow flag yellow flag that were clear to see.

Not that anything can be done, the race is over. But at the time, Vettel saw multiple yellow flags and overtook an opponent. Now unless he has a direct patch into the stewards who warned him in advance that the displayed flags were wrong, he knowingly broke a rule. It's lucky for him that he's being defended afterwards because at the time he broke the rule he had no way of knowing that those blatant yellow flags were not to be adhered to.

 

[Amir]

Why would he be so desperate to pass even when he knows he can get into huge trouble?

 

[Zarlak]

Maybe his 3rd WDC at stake?

Unless there's a more plausible explanation for ignoring multiple yellow flags that are plain to see, without having a direct patch into the stewards to tell him in advance to ignore blaring yellow flags?

Who knows. But it's foolish to say there wasn't a yellow flag. What got cleared up after the race wasn't the case at the time it happened so can't be used as an excuse.

It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, Kobayashi pitted and he would have gained the place anyway but it's just funny to see people say it wasn't a yellow flag even when you can quite clearly see that it was. There was also a red and yellow flag just before, on top of the multiple yellow flags.

I'm not that arsed about the yellow flag, but come on at least accept that it's clear as day to see that it's there. What I'm pissed off with is MSC.

 

[Rado_N]

Not that anything can be done, the race is over. But at the time, Vettel saw multiple yellow flags and overtook an opponent. Now unless he has a direct patch into the stewards who warned him in advance that the displayed flags were wrong, he knowingly broke a rule. It's lucky for him that he's being defended afterwards because at the time he broke the rule he had no way of knowing that those blatant yellow flags were not to be adhered to.

Unless he had some kind of display in his car, like the one on the steering wheel which tells drivers what flags are out.

 

[Zarlak]

Unless he had some kind of display in his car, like the one on the steering wheel which tells drivers what flags are out.

Then you would query the mismatch on his radio and await an answer from the stewards before assuming that everything on the track in front of him is a lie.

 

[Rado_N]

Why do you think Ferrari are satisfied that the overtake was legitimate?

 

[Zarlak]

Probably because it's incredibly poor sport to bring it up after the race when it's all over with. It should have been done at the time. Which I agree with.

The issue is with people saying there weren't yellow flags, in the face of evidence showing that there quite clearly are and drivers not having any way of knowing any different until after.

 

[senorgregster]

aren't those last two alerts red? I'd like to see the video because if they are flashing alternating red/yellow (is that what they do) it would be easy to grab images of all yellow.

 

[Amir]

Maybe his 3rd WDC at stake?

I'm not that arsed about the yellow flag, but come on at least accept that it's clear as day to see that it's there. What I'm pissed off with is MSC.

It wasn't late in the race. There was certainly no reason for such a desperate move. The possible cost was much higher than any gain.

As for Schumacher, seventh would have been enough for Vettel anyway.

 

[vanthaman]

It's ok, kimi knows what he's doing

 

[Zarlak]

As for Schumacher, seventh would have been enough for Vettel anyway.

Doesn't make it right.


Question for you both, if you're the driver and you're on the race track and you're driving legit... you see multiple yellow flags and you have something on your wheel telling you no yellow flags.

Do you, a.) query which is the case before proceeding
b.) assume the track is lying and do what you want?

 

[Rado_N]

Probably because it's incredibly poor sport to bring it up after the race when it's all over with. It should have been done at the time. Which I agree with.

The issue is with people saying there weren't yellow flags, in the face of evidence showing that there quite clearly are and drivers not having any way of knowing any different until after.

Then why didn't they bring it up during the race? They had more than enough time.

Is it not possible that they knew at the time that there was nothing wrong? As for not wanting to bring it up after the race, sorry but this is Ferrari we're talking about, not to mention a feck-tonne of money at stake, if they thought there was something wrong they'd have acted on it.

 

[Zarlak]

Then why didn't they bring it up during the race? They had more than enough time.

Is it not possible that they knew at the time that there was nothing wrong? As for not wanting to bring it up after the race, sorry but this is Ferrari we're talking about, not to mention a feck-tonne of money at stake, if they thought there was something wrong they'd have acted on it.

But you're getting away from the question Nick. That point is irrelevant. That's Ferraris own fault.

Look at those pictures. Are you telling me those aren't yellow flags? So why in the first instance, was Vettels immediate reaction to overtake anyway? Shouldn't a drivers immediate reaction be to adhere to the flags you see in front of you?

What information came to light afterwards, and what the stewards decided afterwards is irrelevant. The issue is Vettels reaction immediately upon seeing signs saying 'you're not allowed to overtake.' Before any amount of time had elapsed where he could receive clarification on what he should be doing.

Had there been a team radio saying 'yellow flags are broken, ignore them' it would have been sent to every driver on the grid and we'd have heard one of them on TV, rather than everybody being confused for an hour about why he'd decided to break them.

I'm not sure how you can use any logic to assume the flags on the track were wrong at the time. There's no information whatsoever to support that at the time, that anybody knew of.

 

[Zarlak]

Like I said anyway, it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things but I can't understand why you'd look at a big yellow square and say 'that's not yellow.'

If you concede that it is indeed yellow, then you'd have to concede that drivers should have been obeying them until told otherwise. That then brings us onto the point of why he didn't, etc.

 

[Rado_N]

I'm not getting away from the question, I'm pointing to the fact that the team who would benefit from a Vettel punishment have stated that the flags were red and yellow. They had ample opportunity to raise the issue at the time had they felt there was an infringement, so my suggestion is that they already knew (at the time) that the flags were red and yellow. That seems the only logical explanation to me as to why Ferrari would have no problem.

As for Seb's actions at the time, if his steering wheel displays red/yellow and he acted accordingly, then I don't see an issue with that.

This entire debate is hypothetical though, so I don't really care. All I know as a fact is that Ferrari, who would leave no option unexplored to gain an advantage, are perfectly satisfied that nothing was done wrong, which is more than good enough for me.

 

[Rooney1987]

Deserved title for Seb. He's had his luck but doesn't every title winning season.

Looking at the back of the grid again HRT, Caterham and Marussia with 0 points in 3 seasons. I know it's tough to break in to F1 but even Torro Rosso and Force India at this point in there development were at least getting somewhere. HRT looking like packing it in wonder how long the other teams last.

 

[Leg-End]

Toro Rosso emerged from Minardi, Force India emerged from Jordan, Caterham and Marussia both started from nothing and thats the big difference in terms of development speed. It takes a long time for teams to establish themselves and given both of those teams are operating on limited budgets they can't rush it, 10th in the WCC will really help Caterham though.

HRT I think at this point is dead in the water, they have a fancy new team HQ so they might get a buyer but they need one quickly.

 

[londonredmaniac]

feck off Alonso.

 

[Amir]

Question for you both, if you're the driver and you're on the race track and you're driving legit... you see multiple yellow flags and you have something on your wheel telling you no yellow flags.

Do you, a.) query which is the case before proceeding
b.) assume the track is lying and do what you want?

I haven't a bloody clue. I don't know what he saw, I don't know what was going through his mind. I've never raced in my life. All I know is that looking at the how relatively easy it is to pass when you've got a Red Bull, and DRS, I can't fathom why he would insist on overtaking there and then.

 

[F-Red]

I think the flags discussion are neither here nor there and probably not the decision (or lack of from race control) that the media/public should have scrutinised of Vettel.

His first lap collision with Senna, turning into him & causing the incident was no different from Hulkenbergs on Hamilton later in the race. That was the more serious offence, not the yellow flags.

That said, he was in the right place at the right time to benefit from his luck. Alonso must be hopeful that if Ferrari get the right car from day one, then their upgrade path should be strong enough to take the challenge to Red Bull next year.

 

[Leg-End]

It ain't over yet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638

 

[pauldyson1uk]

It ain't over yet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638

If they do and they win , it would be just rubbish, they should of said something at the time.
Sour grapes comes to mind.

 

[Leg-End]

Not if they were gathering evidence for a stong protest.

 

[Count Orduck]

If they do and they win , it would be just rubbish, they should of said something at the time.
Sour grapes comes to mind.

Wait, what? If they protest and they "win", then they've surely done the right thing? If the ruling body decide that Vettel did break the rules and punish him, and in doing so take away his title, then that's just balancing things that are currently unbalanced. Just because Ferrari have waited doesn't make any potential wrongdoing "right".

But I'd punish them very heavily if they "lost" this protest, though, because then it's obvious that they're just grasping at straws and trying every trick in the book.

Alonso's Twitter message is a bit snarky though, but I suppose what do you expect from him:

No tengo milagros, Yo hago de las leyes correctas mis milagros.

Translation: I don't believe in miracles. I make my miracles out of the correct rules.