The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft Final - Indnyc/crappycraperson vs. Tuppet

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by green_smiley, Jan 5, 2018.

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Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?

Poll closed Jan 6, 2018.
  1. Team Indnyc/crappycraperson

    65.5%
  2. Team Tuppet

    34.5%
  1. Jan 5, 2018
    #1

    green_smiley :lol:

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    TEAM INDNYC/CRAPPYCRAPERSON

    [​IMG]

    VS

    TEAM TUPPET

    [​IMG]

    TACTICS INDNYC/CRAPPYCRAPERSON

    Final Tactics : - Indnyc/Crappy


    3-4-1-2 formation centered to bring out the best of Platini, C. Ronaldo and Ronaldo

    The team is set up similar to the great Juventus team of the 80’s in which Platini won 3 European player of the year awards. In addition we have two of the best forwards of all time upfront- the greatest number 9 ever, Luiz Ronaldo, and the greatest wing forward ever in Cristiano Ronaldo.

    Goalkeeper: Oliver Kahn.. Easily one of the greatest of all times

    Defense

    The defense is the same as the semi final. Gaetano Scriea, Paolo Maldini and Rio Ferdinand make our defense water tight. Scriea plays the role he played for Juventus and is expected to bring the ball out of defense and start attacks.

    P. Maldini is easily amongst top 5 defenders of all time and Rio is as graceful as they get. They are flanked by Cabrini another member of the Juventus side who also won the 1982 World Cup with Italy at Left Wing Back and is one of the greatest left backs of all time. Manuel Amoros completes the defense at right wing back.

    Cabrini and Amoros are given a license to venture forward with the back 3 covering for them. Noby Stiles will fall back in defense as required

    Midfield

    Noby Stiles, Neeskens, and Platini give the team a great balance. Noby Stiles was the player that sat and did the dirty work as Charlton and co. led United to the European cup. His role here is to break up attacks and feed the ball to Platini and Neeskens.

    Neeskens is probably one of the greatest box to box midfielders and will be a key player in both attack and defense. In this formation he is given a bit more licence to move forward and join the attack. He still maintains his role as a box to box midfielder.

    Platini is given the free role of sorts in the midfield with freedom to drop deep or move into the box as he sees fit. Even if presence of two Ronaldos upfront may not allow him to play a proper false 9 role, he is the second best pure no.10 in history behind Maradona and after Diego, he is the player you want supplying balls to those 2.

    Attack

    Ronaldo and Cristiano Ronaldo completes the line up. Arguably two of the greatest forwards of all time, they are playing in familiar roles and no matter how good the defense they will cause trouble.

    Match Specific Tactics

    • Our tactic is to use the strength of our 5 man defense with Stiles and Neeskens on top of that, absorb any attack from Tuppet's team and then counter from the back
    • Cristiano and Luiz Ronaldo are both excellent when it comes to breaking out in counters either with the ball or without it
    • Both full backs are capable of sprinting forward as is Neeskens.
    • Platini, Neeskens and Scriea can play that critical pass from the back to lead a quick counter
    While Attacking
    • In an attacking phase when we do have the ball, our full backs will have leeway to attack since Maldini can nullify Jairzinho when required given the latter almost played as a wing forward at times and Rio can be back up for Amoros if Giggs leads the attack.
    • This is strictly true for attacking phase when the opposition might try to counter. When in defensive phase, all 5 will be in their positions.
    While Defending
    • Zico + Puskas will be difficult for any defense but but our central defensive spine is incredibly strong in Scriea, Rio, Maldini and Stiles
    • If Puskas drops deep, Scriea will come out of the defense to the midfield
    Game Changer
    • A huge part of our defense is Goalkeeper Oliver Kahn who is arguably a contender for GOAT. The opposition goalkeeper by comparison is almost a sheep. The gulf in class between the two goalkeepers is glaring when we look at the other positions where we are evenly matched

    TACTICS TUPPET

    When two of our best attacking players are the best players of two of the most brilliant attacking teams (Mighty Magyars, Brazil 82), it doesn't makes much sense to play defensively, soak pressure & counter etc. We are going to be playing in an attacking 4-2-3-1.


    Facing an attack as good as crappy/Indy is very hard and made me take some tough decison. Beckenbauer in defense or midfield was one of them and it was a hard one, I know Wright is probably (& in my view unjustifiably) not going to get rated as much as the others, and Beckenbauer would be an immense upgrade on him. But I am going to back my conviction on Wright - Moore partnership which I feel is perfect. More importantly I want to have Kaiser's influence in midfield to counter Platini and win the control the midfield.

    Leaving Masopust was a tough decision as well but while Masopust was awesome he doesn't provide anything that Beckenbauer doesn't already do it better. Monti on the other hand with his incredible defensive acumen can hold the fort pretty well while Kaiser goes forward to help in attack. Not that Beckenbauer is particularly instructed to go forward at every opportunity but Monti frees him to play his natural game. I feel containing Platini is the key for me to contain the opposition attack. Out of all the great number 10s I feel Platini is the one who is most comfortable in middle and is less prone to move to wide areas. He was an astonishing playmaker but his game was more based on passing and quick pass & go rather than dribbling and taking on defenders (relatively speaking ofcourse). I feel the central axis of Monti-Beckenbauer-Moore-Wright has the right combination of skill, physicallity and sheer talent to limit Platini.

    The best way to deal with Cristiano is always try to cut the supply to him, thats what SAF tried when he used Welbeck to suffocate Alonso. Especially his Real Madrid version while an amazing finisher is more dependent on supply. Our solution is to try and contain Platini. We have a very strong central core that should stifle his creativity and reduce the chances for Cristiano. Facing him is Djalma Santos who is perfect for Ronaldo as Djalma had pretty much no flaws in his defensive game. He believed that first responsibility of a fullback is to defend and he fulfilled that impeccably with his strength, durability and resolution. He was unyielding in the tackle, effective in the air, quick to cover the ground with his distinctive scuttling run and perceptive in his distribution, usually preferring a simple pass to one of his more extravagantly talented team-mates.

    Dealing with phenomeno is an incredibly hard job. In Bobby Moore though I have a defender who did a very admirable job of containing a similar player in Pele. Moore and Wright would have to be at their best to have any hope to contain Ronaldo but for purely covering, marking & tackling Moore was the best defender and Both Pele & Beckenbauer agreed on this. While other defenders like Baresi, Scirea bring different qualities to the game, when it comes to pure defending Moore was as good as it gets. Wright would compliment him with his pace and heading.

    For my team I feel we have edge in Midfield battle. With our opposition playing 5 at the back, We are going to be the more proactive & attacking team and likely control the game more, with Backenbauer being a great influence in both attack and defense. Width is something thats going to come up as well. 4-2-3-1 generally has the advantage in the wing over 3-5-2 and I have a pair of all time great wingers in Jairzinho and Giggs. They would force the wingbacks back and pull the defenders apart to create space for Zico & Puskas through center.

    Zico is unsurprisingly my talisman in this game. He was brilliant against Scirea in Italy vs Brazil 1982, while also shaking off Gentile's brutal marking.



    In last game I heard someone question Zico's scoring record with a remark on him scoring those goals in an attacking Brazilian league. Just to take an example of his sheer talent and adaptability, consider that he moved to Italy at the age of 30 to play for Udinise. He adapated to the cynical & defensive Itallian football which is wildly different from Brazilian game. And in his very first season hit 19 goals in the league, scoring at a better rate (19 in 24 vs 20 in 28) & just one behind league highest scorer Platini who played for a settled and much superior Juventus team. He also scored against some brilliant defenders like 2 goals agaisnt Baresi's Milan and a goal against Scirea's Juventus. He has the performance and stats to back him up against the Scirea lead defense.

    Puskas is yet another GOAT from my team. Most prolific player in the draft, he can both create his own chances and finish what the likes of Zico & Backenbauer would create for him. Its hard not to get excited looking at other team and seeing Phenomeno leading the line, but it should be remembered that Puskas scored more goals, won more trophies & had an overall better career than Ronaldo did.

    To sum it up, Zico is free-er to do his magic. He has proven that he can perform against best of Italian defense and has one of the most prolific player of all time in front of him. My world class wingers are going the stretch the opposition defense more consistently and with our midfield dominating we would be crating more chances, more often which should give us victory.
  2. Jan 5, 2018
    #2

    green_smiley :lol:

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  3. Jan 5, 2018
    #3

    harms Way Staff

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    Not one did, read it again :nono:
  4. Jan 5, 2018
    #4

    harms Way Staff

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    Not sure that Beckenbauer instead of Masopust was a great reinforcement to be honest. Plus Fernandez sticks out like a sore thumb (especially seeing Kahn in the opposition's goal).
  5. Jan 5, 2018
    #5

    idmanager New Member

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    Man, I loved Masopust in that lineup alongside Monti.
    Not that I don't like Kaiser here but that role was perfect with Masopust as well.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  6. Jan 5, 2018
    #6

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Yeah true. But at the same time Kaiser imo has Pele /Maradona level influence, because he's a defender doesn't get recognised as much as such. Masopust is brilliant but Kaiser is a game changer.
  7. Jan 5, 2018
    #7

    idmanager New Member

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    In general, yes. A game changer.
    In the current role alongside the players he has behind and ahead, I wouldn't say he takes the team miles ahead of what Masopust would. (I might be biased after the last draft where I got to check him out a bit more after we entered Austria/Czech)

    I absolutely loved Zico-Masopust-Monti. Looked almost perfect without the flashiest names. Perfect old school 4-3-3.
  8. Jan 5, 2018
    #8

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Can see where you are coming from, but Kaiser is Kaiser, and Zico will have a much easier time than Platini because of him. Think Tuppet got it right switching to 4-2-3-1 against that back 5, esp with the wingers he has.
  9. Jan 5, 2018
    #9

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    Wow.. Masopust dropped .. didn't see that coming at all.

    Anyway, few points

    - It is not a case of Monti + Kaiser vs Platini. It is those two vs Platini + Neeskens. Absence of Masopust means Neeskens can play more of an attacking role here.
    - Second even if we don't have 2 DMs to clog the area against Zico, he has the tougher task here since he faces a more congested central defensive area in front of the goal with 3 CBs and DM. Platini would still have two Ronaldos upfront pulling away defenders for him. Puskas at best can draw out Scirea from defense and Maldini can cover any threat Jairzinho may pose in the penalty area at all.
    - I am also happy now that both Ronaldos would face a Beckanbauer less back 4. Enough debate has been had over Wright in previous games but i would rather those 2 faced him than the german.
    - Finally I hope people account for keeper at least somewhat. Fine, if you think Tuppet's team is better than us by a good margin then vote for him but if both teams are in same ball park then the gulf in quality of keepers can win you matches. United fans with De Gea and Schmeichel should at least appreciate the same.
  10. Jan 5, 2018
    #10

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    But surely Beckanbauer's favoured role is in defence. He was good in midfield but not sure he should be rated similarly there as in defense.
  11. Jan 5, 2018
    #11

    harms Way Staff

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    Agree. Beckenbauer in midfield is still better than any midfielder bar maybe Xavi/Matthäus, but it's not the all-conquering libero version of him that made him one of the genuine GOATs (and Masopust was one of the best creative midfielders of all time anyway).

    Seriously, Beara would've been a better reinforcement imo
  12. Jan 5, 2018
    #12

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    I think his midfield was fine. Frankly, I said to indync that both trios were matched. That's not pertinent now so don't want to indulge too much in could've/should've but if he really wanted another DM in there then Rijkarrd was a no brainer IMO.
  13. Jan 5, 2018
    #13

    idmanager New Member

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    Its a huge disservice to Monti, putting Rijkaard alongside him. Kaiser was the better pick ahead of Rijkaard definitely. (If one wanted to replace Masopust at all cost)
  14. Jan 5, 2018
    #14

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    That's true probably. But anyway should just discuss what Tuppet has put now what he could have.
  15. Jan 5, 2018
    #15

    Gio ★★★★★★★★

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    It was a tricky upgrade for Tuppet. Moore/Kaiser isn't very compatible IMO, although arguably a similar if less pronounced point could be made on Scirea/Rio on the other side. Can't argue with the construction of the team, very balanced across the board. Kaiser probably gives Tuppet an edge in midfield and I'd fancy Zico to cause Stiles plenty of problems. A lot hinges on Lizarazu's capacity to run the game, he could get the space to do so. Carlos would be phenomenal in such a set-up. I'm assuming the two Rons won't do much defending so it would be interesting to see how crappy and indy plan to deal with Lizarazu and Giggs. A lot of love for the Platini/Cristiano/Ronaldo attack, one of the rare occasions a triumvirate of GOATs look like the sum of their parts. A particular route to goal could be Cristiano's aerial power against a fairly small defence with only Wright having especially memorable spring.
  16. Jan 5, 2018
    #16

    Charles Miller Full Member

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    Team Tuppet would smash them.
  17. Jan 5, 2018
    #17

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    We tried to clarify this in our write up. Amoros will be back in his right back position when we are in defensive phase and Tuppet has possession. In that set up it is upto the combo of Amoros and Rio to sweep the left side of his attack. If and when Amoros may be caught upfield in attack and both Lizrazu/Giggs make a run on the outside on a counter, we still would have Rio and Scirea to cover for those 2. Rio may not have experience trying to close down a flank but it is not out of purview of central defenders to close down attacks on the right. Also given our game plan we don't plan on being caught on too many counters so instances where Rio may have to step out completely to the flank would be rare if any.
  18. Jan 5, 2018
    #18

    Gio ★★★★★★★★

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    Fair enough and makes sense for Amo to step onto Liza.
  19. Jan 5, 2018
    #19

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    I think, as per usual, managers read and infer the wrong things from anything that has a neg on their men.

    All I said was it made no sense to equate Zico's (outstanding) record at the Maracana with Shearer's career record as the league styles and quality of opposition differ significantly.
  20. Jan 5, 2018
    #20

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    I actually like the Beckenbauer pick myself.

    1. I love midfield Beckenbauer

    2. It does significantly improve that midfield the right way. I did think in the semi that midfield needed more defensive nous. A Monti-Rijkaard upgrade would have kept things rather even, while Beckenbauer keeps pretty much all you needed from Masopust and adds everything that midfield lacked and absolutely needed in this game.

    3. It's ballsy. I like to see a bit of gun-sticking rather than discarding players (Wright) because people aren't rating them enough.

    The downside is no Beara, but I think if Beara was there I would have already voted for the other team on account of the spine being balanced, but not made of the necessary stuff for this game.
  21. Jan 5, 2018
    #21

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Just for some context on this point, Cristiano is 6'2" vs Santos who was 5'8". I don't doubt Santos's ability as a defender but Cristiano has arguably one of the greatest leaps of all time.. This is definitely a route to goal when you also consider the opposition goalkeeper
  22. Jan 5, 2018
    #22

    harms Way Staff

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    It's interesting, certainly. And you have a point that ind/cr would've probably edged it with Beara but, however great Beckenbauer is, Fernandez is a huge turn-off for me; especially with the likes of Cristiano shooting from all positions, how many goals did he scored from long/middle range against the mediocre La Liga goalkeepers?

    The other Ronaldo would've probably dribbled past Beara as he dribbles past Fernandez, but with the other it's a game-winning (losing) difference.
  23. Jan 5, 2018
    #23

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Yeah, I agree, it's a game of fine margins and that looks like the most likely regular source of margins.

    I do think Beckenbauer in midfield was a great call though.
  24. Jan 5, 2018
    #24

    idmanager New Member

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    Alright, below is my view on the game.

    Zico+Puskas as good as they are individually and probably as a combo, Platini+CR+Ronaldo is simply a notch higher in terms of fit and build.
    While there is Giggs and the 1 summer wonder Jairzinho on the pitch too, the Platini team wins the oomph battle for me.

    Tuppet definitely wins the midfield battle IMO. He would have won it even with Masopust in there. The chemistry is too good.
    Nobby Stiles from what I know is rated a bit below the level you would want someone to face Zico.

    Both the defenses are quite strong. Of course, Scirea+Maldini+Rio is a great trio which I love.
    There is one aspect which I don't see discussed usually and that is the influence of some players against a particular formation and whether they would have an impact on the game as much as they can.

    Cabrini+Amoros would have a great say in things while the lack of wingers on the opposition side make Lizarazu and Djalma under utilized in their natural element.
    I would not rate either great going forward as well, so they are kind of pointless at times although its something that is unavoidable.
    Not to say they wouldn't have a say on things helping out centrally, but they are definetely not the perfect players in the setup.
    The setup needed at least one high flying wing back, preferably on the other side of CR.
    Not sure if its makes sense to many, but for me these 2 positions on either side make it kind of a 10 vs 11 game tactically.

    All in all, the only thing that stops me voting for the Platini team is Stiles. And of course, Tuppet deserves to be heard before voting.
  25. Jan 5, 2018
    #25

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    This surprised me. After thinking a little, playing Beckenbauer in midfield seems like a masterpiece move. I feel like Zico now gets an extremely favorable match-up. Stiles vs. Zico heavily favors Zico and even with Scirea moving up, Zico does very well against him as well.

    Also I don't see much synergy with Fenomeno and Cristiano but that could be just me.
  26. Jan 5, 2018
    #26

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    Except he is not playing crap La Liga midfields and defenses. here both his supply is getting choked off and he is not playing with teammates that exist just to facilitate him (Benzema vs. Fenomemo). I personally don't see cr7 being in his element in this match at all and getting frustrated.
  27. Jan 5, 2018
    #27

    harms Way Staff

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    :confused: It's the same as ever in draft games. He also gets service from Platini of all people, and plays in a much better team than the current Madrid side, with defenders also focusing on Fenomeno, Le Roi etc. But the keeper here is of La Liga's quality, and it's a game-changer for me.

    Zico will have a good game, I'm sure of it, but crappy's side will outscore them.
  28. Jan 5, 2018
    #28

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Lizarazu isn't a high flying wingback but I'm not sure why you created that requirement. He is as balanced an all-rounder as you could want and, with only Amoros to worry about I can see him defending that from the front supporting Giggs splendidly.

    At the other end Djalma is absolutely fine. If he were said high flying wingback everyone would be banging on about that flank being targeted via Cab(i)rini and CR7.
  29. Jan 5, 2018
    #29

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    I think the point was keeper quality. I'd agree with the rest and never quite warmed to Cristiano in that setup, but here he will be a force to be reckoned with aerially and absolutely nobody in Tuppet's side can live with him.

    There's not a single player in that side you would particularly rate aerially. With CR around and two wingbacks freed up to go up and down the flanks he will make him pay.
  30. Jan 5, 2018
    #30

    Indnyc Full Member

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    I don't disagree that Stiles isn't the best fit for Zico but between Stiles and Scriea, Zico isn't going to run away with the game. Plus between Rio and Maldini, there is good coverage to handle Puskas as well. We mentioned this in the OP that Zico + Puskas is as good as it gets but our spine is also incredibly strong.
  31. Jan 5, 2018
    #31

    idmanager New Member

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    Regarding why the requirement, you don't need a great LB defensively on the left side while a great LB offensively would have been great without disturbing the defensive balance due to the lack of a winger or a CR-esque figure.

    Your second point about CR+Cabrini is moot as I already mentioned a wingback on the other side of CR would be best for the setup. Djalma is absolutely fine.

    My problem is not with defending against Amoros. I just think a far more attacking minded left back would have been miles better, especially with Giggs already there to support.
  32. Jan 5, 2018
    #32

    Indnyc Full Member

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    He has Platini feeding the ball to him and also Neeskens. Yet again, Neeskens is being forgotten/underrated here. He is perfectly capable of ensuring we make possession count and feed the ball to either of the Ronaldo's
  33. Jan 5, 2018
    #33

    idmanager New Member

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    CR not being in his element is surprising considering the last CL Madrid won was with an almost similar formation with Isco behind Ronaldo and Benzema.

    The only argument could be would Fenomeno work well and get the best out of CR as well as Benzema did and I have no doubts. Fenomeno was a great player to play with and some I don't think was selfish at all.
    Someone who could bring the best out of the people around him and create for others. Shares this trait with Henry who not only scored for fun but also created for fun.

    In fact I could imagine Fenomeno getting frustrated at times with CR, but never the other way round.
  34. Jan 5, 2018
    #34

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    So basically you'd rather a Marcelo than a Lizarazu. Doesn't need to be a "high-flying wingback", just that you would want more emphasis on attack. You are probably severely underrating Lizarazu tbh.
  35. Jan 5, 2018
    #35

    idmanager New Member

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    Probably, yea. I don't rate him as good as Marcelo or Carlos in attack.
  36. Jan 5, 2018
    #36

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Looks nothing like Madrid, CR aside. Agree Ronaldo would be an unselfish partner but that doesn't make him Benzema or that team similar to RM16-17.
  37. Jan 5, 2018
    #37

    idmanager New Member

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    Boy, its not harms with whom none of my views match. Its actually you :lol:
  38. Jan 5, 2018
    #38

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Probably not, but when you have Giggs there the difference is rather pointless. Nobody expects the fullback to be the main wide attacker. You just need a good foil, which Lizarazu would be.
  39. Jan 5, 2018
    #39

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Well, @harms and I tend to agree a lot, so there's that.

    Real didn't play 5 at the back for starters.
  40. Jan 5, 2018
    #40

    Tuppet New Member

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