Cheers. All the best to you as well
The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft Final - Indnyc/crappycraperson vs. Tuppet
- Thread starter green_smiley
- Start date
I do at least depending on the opposition
I didn't mean the whole formation, but that is okay. Its obviously not a blue print.
Nowt to do with opposition.I do at least depending on the opposition
What on earth do you have Giggs for then? Both Puskas and Zico favoured the inside left channel. I don't see that being an issue, but if Giggs is supposed to hand over the outside left channel to a fullback (why? no defender should be a better winger than Giggs) what the hell is he there for?
I think you are taking my point in the wrong sense. I don't see any gaps in the attack. Never mentioned that.
Its just that there could have been an additional body contributing a lot more and making that side very vulnerable to defend against.
I think I have made my point quite clearly and you obviously have your reservations about it. Lets agree to disagree.
wow, so many talking points. right to begin with Gato Fernandez is rightly being questioned. I would say this on the topic -
1). There is absolutely no reason to believe that the GK was sheep level what so ever. His international record is very good with his 78 caps and a Copa America to his name. He was involved in his country's last big international success. They actually even won the Copa on penalties, so its not like their attack was the thing that got them the trophy. He was part of the WC as well, made this sweet Penalty save from Hugo Sanchez -
2). In his club career he won the league 3 times. He was good enough to be called from La liga and played there for 5 years.
3). Finally I agree that GKs are somewhat underrated in the drafts, but hopefully we won't be making them OP. Plenty of great teams have won without a GOAT GK. Actually lot of all time great teams - 50s Real Madrid, 70s Brazil, 90s Milan & 2010s Bracelona. All of these teams had good goalkeepers and not All time greats, this didn't stopped them. GOAT gk is a great advantage but it needs to be put in perspective, we are already counting the GK advantage in case of draw, which is like an extra vote, so I hope GKs are not what deciding the games here.
1). There is absolutely no reason to believe that the GK was sheep level what so ever. His international record is very good with his 78 caps and a Copa America to his name. He was involved in his country's last big international success. They actually even won the Copa on penalties, so its not like their attack was the thing that got them the trophy. He was part of the WC as well, made this sweet Penalty save from Hugo Sanchez -
2). In his club career he won the league 3 times. He was good enough to be called from La liga and played there for 5 years.
3). Finally I agree that GKs are somewhat underrated in the drafts, but hopefully we won't be making them OP. Plenty of great teams have won without a GOAT GK. Actually lot of all time great teams - 50s Real Madrid, 70s Brazil, 90s Milan & 2010s Bracelona. All of these teams had good goalkeepers and not All time greats, this didn't stopped them. GOAT gk is a great advantage but it needs to be put in perspective, we are already counting the GK advantage in case of draw, which is like an extra vote, so I hope GKs are not what deciding the games here.
I agree.
For people missing Masopust, I almost share the same feeling, but I really needed Beckenbauer's influence in the midfield. I though about getting Rijkaard and playing Rijkaard - Masopust against Platini, which could have worked but is really a sideways reinforcement. I feel my current midfield gets the right defensive balance to choke the playmaking from Platini, which I think is the only proper way to nullify Cristiano. Not to mention that Beckenbauer was a hell of a playmaker himself, so if Zico gets tied down with say Scirea stepping up and helping Stiles, Beckenbauer can take the game in his hands and play as the primary playmaker on par with any great number 10.
What Marcelo/Carlos could have on Lizarazu is being able to run the flank single-handedly. Since that isn't necessary Lizarazu is as competent a foil for Giggs as either of the others. It's a bit like wanting a Ferrari when a Mondeo will do (more a BMW to be fair).
Indnyc is going to be primarily involved here but I will reply to this just once since I don't agree somewhat. First, it is an all time draft, so keeper looks more out of place than it would on a restricted one. Second, other great sides in real life also got away with average players in other positions too. That normally does not works an excuse (not going into whether it should or not).
Also if you read my post making the point about keepers. I already said that if people think that your team is considerably better then keeper perhaps should not matter but if it is a case of 55/45 in either favor then keepers can and absolutely should be a factor.
But Platini is covered by Monti and Beckenbauer. This is why i think the midfield move was game changing because it shifts the balance of the midfield battle to Tuppet's favor. I just don't see Platini having a strong game here between the opposing personnel and tactic. Certainly Platini is much more restricted than Zico will be and either Neeskens is going to need to help out Stiles constantly or Scirea moves up which will leave more space for Puskas and Jairzinho/Giggs. I just think Tuppet sides gets more clear cut chances and Zico-Puskas I would bet to put away more than the chances In/cra might get.
Zico will have a good game, I'm sure of it, but crappy's side will outscore them.
The aerial point is valid for sure. I just don't think he is going to be getting enough balls for that to make the difference.
Its not that I am ignoring him. I just think Stiles vs. Zico is the biggest mismatch on the pitch so he is going to a lot of help from Neeskens and/or Scirea.
Djalma is dealing with Cristiano most of the time, so he is hardly useless. Lizarazu would be helping out Giggs in attack, he was not the most attacking but with him behind Giggs can go all in on Amoros. I actually think that a 4-2-3-1 provides a very good counter to a 3-5-2, exposing the teams in wing area. But thats not what my draft experience has been like. Somehow wingbacks always manage to handle the opposition wingers while also doing their thing in attack and never getting caught up top.
Giggs-Lizarazu against Amoros is a great example. Amoros needs to be quite attacking as he is the only source of width at that side. Giggs was an all time great winger and would definitely beat him quite a few times because Amoros is attacking. This would lead Ferdi to go wide or Neeskens to drop to RB side to cover. Either of those options stretches the mid or defense, with Lizarazu providing overlap and a pretty strong central attack in Zico-Puskas & Jairzinho cutting in these stretching of defense / midfield would be decisive. Not to mention we have more players in attack and if anyone is being wasted its 3 CBs vs 1 striker. They constantly have to leave their position to play wide.
It's the Spanish stint that gives me pause.
Dragging a goalie from Paraguay to Europe was such an exceptional thing to do back then. La Liga was a much more even playing field then as well and using a foreigner slot on a keeper would need ro be justified.
But then, he only started one season and he changed clubs regularly over his career, which is also an odd thing for a sound goalkeeper to do.
He was certainly very good at penos, but that's the sort of situation that favours his strengths and doesn't portray the weaknesses harms pointed out and documented in his game.
And Zico (who'll play slightly further up than Platini) faces Scirea sided by Maldini and Rio. I don't think that Tuppet will dominate the midfield — he's got an upper hand here, but both sides will get enough chances.
I agree with most of what you say and just to reiterate I don't think you have a tactical mistake or something or any gaps in attack. Don't think I mentioned that in any of the posts.
Only point being, the text in bold is something you don't need to worry too much against this particular formation or opposition and Lizarazu I felt is under utilized in that sense considering a much more attacking minded fullback could have been afforded and killed that flank.
I know that bold part was w.r.t Cabrini and Amoros, but it made sense with the Lizarazu role here as well IMO.
Tuppet will dominate the midfield, Stiles is completely out of his depth compared to the opposition, and it happens Tuppet's best attacker is operating in his areas. Zico will run him ragged.
Don't agree. With 5 in the back + Neeskens (it was probably a mistake to leave Stiles "alone" at the picture, in a counter-attacking system like this Neeskens will definitely help out a la Tardelli with Furino) Zico won't run anyone ragged. He'll get his chances, but so will the others.
Naw, in an all-time sense Stiles is well below average on the ball. No way Tuppet doesn't dominate that midfield with the Kaiser addition. And Zico won't be going against Maldini and Ferdinand regularly. They have to mind both Puskas and then Jairzinho/Giggs. I don't buy the wing-backs always being able to defend the wings all match and also provide the required width and service to attack. Something has to give there. Its why I think Beckenbauer in this tactic shades the match for Tuppet.
That leaves Neeskens free. I don't think Platini is more restricted than Zico is.. Stiles isn't Djemba -Djemba. He may not be a the greatest but between him and Scriea there is a lot of bodies that he needs to get through.. Stiles was a key member of both the world cup winning side and Manchester United's 1968 European cup winning side..
Beckenbauer does have to worry about Neeskens and cannot focus only on Platini. Jairzinho/Giggs have Cabrini and Amoros so not sure why Scriea is going there except if we get caught on counter attacks which won't happen too often given our strategy
I'll reiterate the point that Jairzinho and Giggs have Cabrini and Amoros covering them.. In the defensive phase we have 5 at the back.. Ferdinand and Maldini are there to support but they aren't the only defenders there.
Stiles won't know what hit him.
It would be wonderful if every time you want, your back line changes from 3 to 5 at back & forth depending on the phase of the game and it happens perfectly. However in reality you either have your wingbacks playing conservatively and leaving you short of attacking width & you would need them crosses to Ronaldo. Or your wingbacks would caught up field with counters. This won't happen every time ofcourse, but would happen enough times as I do have a brilliant pair of wingers.
I would re-iterate my point, this is the problem with 3-5-2 formations, people when want to look at defensively see 5 defenders able to cover anything, while also someone saying those wingbacks being free to attack and rain crosses for Cristiano to bury and that effectively gives you 2 men advantage. I have always been a fan of wingers, I think they are underrated as hell in drafts, but Cabrini against Jarizinho for example is a potential route of goals for me, he would attack (that's just his game) get caught up high often, Maldini would have to cover him and that stretches the defense. Do it a few times against Puskas - Zico and goals would follow.
The key for me is the difference between Monti and Stiles. I know its tough to judge totally on playstyle because of the lack of footage but by all accounts, Monti was just a better all-around player than Stiles who will contribute more to all phases of the game. And as much as I love Neeskens contributions to any team, Beckenbauer is just a GOAT. When Zico was tightly marked, he did drop deep in midfield and that's how he was still able to unlock Gentile-Scirea defense. One of his assists against Liverpool as well can from him going over the top from deep. So overall I just see Monti-Beckenbauer-Zico able to control the game over Stiles-Neeskens-Platini.
Fair enough. Our feeling is even though it may be a stronger midfield, our defense and attack makes up for it.
I don't disagree with your overall point.. Our strategy is to counter attack and hence when we are defending we will have 5 at the back.. In general with the 3-5-2 formation, the idea is if our wingbacks push forward and attack, we would have 3 central defenders at the back along with Stiles.
There will be times when our defense is stretched and times when yours will be stretched as well.
I mean even if you are countering it hardly means your wingbacks are going to sit back all the time & if thats the case than you have wrong personnel for the job. Cabrini made his name almost playing as a winger on the left side, he was very attacking and he would be roasted for pace against Jairzinho a fair few times. I mean its like you have two Maldini's there, which is not the case at all.
The qualities and characteristics of the players needs to be taken into account. I see a narrative forming Beckenbauer covers Platini and Stiles covers Zico so we are even, which is not the case. One is all time greatest defensive player and he would be beaten far less times than Stiles who would be in a huge amount of trouble against Zico. He would need support from Scirea and Maldini would need to cover for Cabrini.
Same goes on the other side, Just because you have Rio on right side does not mean that when Amoros is beaten by Giggs, Ferdi would just go and cover him. Giggs is running at him full pelt if Amoros is caught up high and at that point just the existence of Rio is not enough to stop him. A perfect example of this is the goal that I posted in previous game -
Here once Giggs broke free of Thuram (Who is caught upfield because of a bad pass) he had Ferrara (Who is far more proven on right side than Rio) & Montero to beat, neither had a chance to stop him though.
You can say Scirea is also there but than Zico & Puskas are also there & Lizarazu is also moving forward. Not saying that our team would destroy yours or anything like that, but there is a difference between say Djalma Santos & Amoros and Djalma has a better chance to cover Cristiano than Amoros has a chance to cover Giggs and Rio's presence does not negate that.
3 defender formations are just getting on my nerves, because it feels like people are assuming that just by having 3 defenders they negate our wingers which is just not how the game usually works.
He probably wouldn't but in a draft like this (and the final no less), there are always going to be GOAT v Great matchups?
For instance, I don't think Wright would know what hit him with Ronaldo (the better one) running at him at speed?
Wingbacks are not going to sit back all the time.. That’s not the game.. But just because they are playing as wingbacks doesn’t make them any less competent than traditional defenders.. They will attack when we have the ball and defend when we don’t.. There will be times when we get caught out but we believe that the players have the ability to fall back and defend when we lose the ball
We’ve never claimed that Beckenbauer on Platini = Stiles on Zico.. We concede that you have a stronger midfield in that Monti probably is better than Stiles.. Scriea being in the defense helps in the central areas.. We wanted an extra body in the central areas to reduce the threat of Zico + Puskas..
Giggs running at Amoros will sometimes win sometimes lose.. Same goes for Santos vs Cristiano and Ronaldo vs Wright
As good as Giggs and Jairzinho are, Cabrini and Amoros are great in defense. Both have played in 4 man defenses and have excelled..
Rio is there as a cover as is Maldini..
Of course our defense will get stretched but so will yours.. It’s nonsense to say Platini is not going to influence the game because he has Monti on him.. Cristiano and Ronaldo will get the ball and there is no one better to have in those positions..
3 central defenses work perfectly when implemented correctly and we think we have the perfect players for it.. It doesn’t negate your wingers but it helps us defend better against them..
This is exactly the point I want to make mate that they are less solid defensively than traditional defenders, some because of their charaterstics and some because of the tactic. Its not about this game either, because I've heard it many times that just because Wingbacks attack doesn't mean they can't defend. They can but there is obviously a difference between Roberto Carlos & Maldini while defending, it would be absurd to claim otherwise. Similarly a defense first right back like Djalma Santos who is also instructed to defend first & foremost is going to have more success against Cristiano than Giggs against Amoros, who is a) worse defensively than Djalma & b) is required to attack far more than Djalma. Just saying that oh Giggs would win sometimes & Cristiano would win sometimes so it all balance out is wrong. We have to think about how many times is sometimes. Giggs would win against Amoros & Jairzinho would beat Cabrini much more times than Cristiano would do to Djalma. Especially because his Real Madrid incarnation is really dependent on service and we have the midfield to cut it. Wingbacks probably used to be underrated, likes of Roberto Carlos & Alves did not get their dues but now its swung the other way round. You started two attacking wingbacks and they are also beating my wingers while playing their natural game. How does that compute ?
Erm no by definition wing backs are less defensively solid than Fullbacks due to the role assigned to them.
I don’t necessarily agree that Amoros is worse defensively than Santos.. Santos is defending first which hardly means that he won’t join in attacks to create 2 on 1 situations.. It’s not just about Giggs beating Amoros (which I don’t think is that easy).. It’s about getting through the central defense as well.. A lot of the supply will get cut out..
Amoros also had great man marking abilities which means he can often sit back if required..
I disagree that you will cut off the supply completely.. Both the Ronaldo’s are perfect for running off the ball and dragging defenders with them.. Between Scriea, Platini and Neeskens we have enough ability to launch quick counter attacks
Sure.. My point is the ability of a defender doesn’t change if he is playing a wing back position.. Amoros does have more license to attack but doesn’t mean he will give up his defensive responsibilities
Yes and tuppet point is that because he is attacking more, he will be caught out more often in defense than if he was playing as a fullback. Which is a fair comment.
Well if you don't agree there then there's really not much to argue, we would be arguing from very different planes. It would like me saying that Wright is not worse defensively than Baresi, its crazy really.
I don't understand this, how is that possible you give license to attack but he won't give up his defensive responsibilities. Its just unrealistic.
When I say he isn’t giving up his defensive responsibilities I mean that he will fall back to defend when we lose the ball
I've also clearly mentioned in OP, how Moore is specifically instructed to keep tabs on Ronaldo. Moore & Wright are doing their team effort on Ronaldo, while Djalma tracks Cristiano. Moore handled Pele with aplomb, he would have trouble against Ronaldo as much as anyone but just look at his performance in world cup, he was godly in tackling & positioning. As I mentioned before other defenders like Baresi & Scirea bring many things while defending, but for a purely defensive perspective Just marking, tackling & positioning I wouldn't put anyone ahead of Moore -
Pele said:
Bump.
Beckenbauer in midfield was one of the best players as well, a one of a kind combination of playmaking, box to box runs and defensive nous his midfield control could be a deciding factor in the game -
Beckenbauer in midfield was one of the best players as well, a one of a kind combination of playmaking, box to box runs and defensive nous his midfield control could be a deciding factor in the game -
Congratulations @crappycraperson @Indnyc for a well deserved win. Thanks @antohan @green_smiley & @Šjor Bepo for the draft.