The Gareth SouthGOAT Appreciation Club ft. no fun at all

[Eboue]

Quite amazed at the criticism towards England and Southgate in this thread but if this World Cup has taught me anything it's that a small section of people are joyless, miserable, nit picking feckers.

actually seeing england lose is the opposite of joyless

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

@Leroy The Red


I agree that we should all be delighted with reaching a semi-final, and it's incredible the way Southgate has succeeded where more qualified predecessors have failed .. he generated a positive atmosphere and managed to build a team which played with a sense of togetherness. For that, he should be applauded and given all the praise in the world. It's no easy task and I'm delighted we have a manager who our players actually seem to like. You're right, they DO look like they care, and that was so good to see.

He made mistakes which were pretty poor even for an inexperienced manager. He's actually been in the management game for a pretty long while now and he's manager of the England national team, it's not like we're talking about some rookie. He's not immune to criticism over his tactics, the tournament is over now and it's only natural people will want to assess how he did, and I think any reasonable person would say he did brilliantly in terms of getting the team behind him, but poorly at in game management and tactical decisions.

He also doesn't have a poor team at his disposal. It's not golden generation level, but it's a better collection of players than any of the teams we beat possessed. Most people would say Harry Kane is world class despite a poor tournament, this is a man who is managing 30 league goals a season in a tough league, holds two golden boots, and scored 7 champions league goals despite his team going out in the first knockout round. There aren't many better fowards around. In support he has some pretty decent players who perform for top clubs, I'm not going to go over all of them, but as I've said before I think on paper we're similar in level to Croatia. We're obviously nowhere near France for example, but there are far worse teams around.

Think you can both have really enjoyed the experience, but also accept that Southgate needs to learn from this tournament big time if we're to have a successful tournament in 2020. Stuff like us having the second least shots on target in the tournament (Only Iran managed less) is clearly a big problem, and it's not down only to personnel. Naturally people are going to talk about this, but in fairness they should also be praising Southgate for the impact he had on the teams mental state (as opposed to past England managers) and also how good we were from set pieces in particular. We were the most dangerous side in the tournament from them, and that's no accident. He deserves both praise and criticism, don't see any issue iwth that.

 

[Ludens the Red]

@Leroy The Red


I agree that we should all be delighted with reaching a semi-final, and it's incredible the way Southgate has succeeded where more qualified predecessors have failed .. he generated a positive atmosphere and managed to build a team which played with a sense of togetherness. For that, he should be applauded and given all the praise in the world. It's no easy task and I'm delighted we have a manager who our players actually seem to like. You're right, they DO look like they care, and that was so good to see.

He made mistakes which were pretty poor even for an inexperienced manager. He's actually been in the management game for a pretty long while now and he's manager of the England national team, it's not like we're talking about some rookie. He's not immune to criticism over his tactics, the tournament is over now and it's only natural people will want to assess how he did, and I think any reasonable person would say he did brilliantly in terms of getting the team behind him, but poorly at in game management and tactical decisions.

Absolutely he did and I attested to that when I said his game management needs work and whilst he shouldn't be immune to criticism I do think people have been over critical. Also he's managed about 50 games in the last 9 years since leaving Middlesbrough, considering how different football is now, surely that cannot be classed as being in the management game for long.

He also doesn't have a poor team at his disposal. It's not golden generation level, but it's a better collection of players than any of the teams we beat possessed. Most people would say Harry Kane is world class despite a poor tournament, this is a man who is managing 30 league goals a season in a tough league, holds two golden boots, and scored 7 champions league goals despite his team going out in the first knockout round. There aren't many better fowards around. In support he has some pretty decent players who perform for top clubs, I'm not going to go over all of them, but as I've said before I think on paper we're similar in level to Croatia. We're obviously nowhere near France for example, but there are far worse teams around.

I don't think it's a 'poor team', actually said average which I don't think many would argue it isn't. It definitely is the weakest England team individually I've ever known. And yeah its better than all the teams we beat, like I said "At least this team had the decency to beat the teams at their level and below", same cannot be said for the old generations.
As for Kane, most people would say he's world class and his record cannot be sniffed at. I think his output is fantastic and his goalscoring record is great but I dunno, I don't see him as a world class "footballer". I genuinely wouldn't even place him in the top 5 English centre forwards of the last 20 years.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Absolutely he did and I attested to that when I said his game management needs work and whilst he shouldn't be immune to criticism I do think people have been over critical. Also he's managed about 50 games in the last 9 years since leaving Middlesbrough, considering how different football is now, surely that cannot be classed as being in the management game for long.



I don't think it's a 'poor team', actually said average which I don't think many would argue it isn't. It definitely is the weakest England team individually I've ever known. And yeah its better than all the teams we beat, like I said "At least this team had the decency to beat the teams at their level and below", same cannot be said for the old generations.
As for Kane, most people would say he's world class and his record cannot be sniffed at. I think his output is fantastic and his goalscoring record is great but I dunno, I don't see him as a world class "footballer". I genuinely wouldn't even place him in the top 5 English centre forwards of the last 20 years.

The England team in the last three tournaments was definitely worse, in my opinion. 2010 is arguable but whilst that lineup had what seemed like big names at the time, many were already on a steep decline and it also featured the likes of James, Upson, Barry Defoe, Heskey, Milner, Hart, Wright Phillips, Lennon, Warnock ... we had some awful players. I don't think the current England team is too bad, we have a team which is young and hungry, with quite a few performing very strongly in the Premier League, spearheaded by one of Europe's best strikers. We have a void in central midfield to be sure, but even the likes of Delph and Dier do a job for City and Spurs, Henderson isn't that bad and RLC had a great season.

England teams pre-2010 generally beat sides they were expected to. Since then we've been an absolute disaster, both down to a lack of talent and horrific management. Capello was a complete alien in the dressing room, from all reports since then the dressing room was miserable. Hodgson was just awful, nothing more needs to be said about how poorly managed England were under him... I mean Kane on corners and free kicks for god sake. Southgate is an obvious improvement over this but it doesn't make him a messiah, it just makes him somewhat competent.

This isn't the Kane thread so I won't say too much about him, but I do disagree. He's a different player for Spurs than England, he's somewhat awkward in the way he moves but he's a fantastic footballer. He's more important to us than either Bale or Modric, and they undoubtedly are world class players. He hasn't looked his best since an injury and clearly needs a bit of rest, but he's born to score goals. Hopefully by 2020 we have a system more suited to him, because I feel like he suffered badly from a lack of service and exhausted himself by dropping deep to try and compensate for a lack of a midfield.

 

[99withaflake]

Pre-tournament, I looked at our squad of players, and to be honest I was shitting myself.

Maguire
Henderson
Young
Delph
Welbeck
Jones
Dier

A lot of opinions and perceptions have changed over the last month, but let's be honest, the reason no-one expected us to do much at this World Cup was because of the quality at our disposal. Quarter finals were the most optimistic shouts.

Yes, the route to the semi was easier than it could have been, but we didn't completely screw it up and self-implode, and part of the credit has to go to the manager. I'm not saying he's the next Alf Ramsey, but I'd much rather have him than Capello, Hodgson or the Wally with a Brolly.

I feel like this was his probation period in a new job, which he has passed comfortably. Yes, there are a couple of areas that need to be worked on (most notably in-game substations and tactics) but on the whole a very good start.

He generally got good performance levels from most of the squad, created a positive morale and culture, rebuilt some trust and love with the paying public, handed the media exceptionally well, and however you look at it, generated better results than we've had in years.

The Euros will be a much bigger test because all of a sudden there will be some expectation again, but he definitely deserves to have a crack at it.

 

[reelworld]

They have better midfielders. Strinic, Lovren, Vida and Vrsalijko are not better than the defenders Southgate had available. Strinic is a below average fullback playing for a poor A.C Milan team, he's a limited at best player. Rose and Young (Or Delph, who was very good in that position all season for City) aren't great, but are better players than him. Heck, so is Ryan Bertrand ffs.

Lovren is routinely mocked for being incredibly error prone. He can look decent all game but is generally always good for an error, I don't know a single Liverpool fan who doesn't get scared watching him play for them. Even when he's looking great you can't trust him. He's no better than John Stones. Vida plays in Turkey and is (again) very clearly a limited defender, how many teams would take him over Maguire? Seriously? Both him and Lovren looked terrified when England actually got at them for the first 20-30. Vrsaljko is a good player, but he's no better than Trippier or Kyle Walker, looks like Dani Alves in his prime when you give him the freedom of the right wing, of course.

They're better coached, but that's surely down to Southgate. He's the manager, if we're not a well coached side then he has to accept criticism. I like him, he's obviously well liked and has the team united which other England managers have hopelessly failed to do, but he failed tactically this tournament. His successes elsewhere mean he deserves another chance, but there's no point denying the truth. We don't need to pretend Croatia are fantastic now, they aren't. They're undeniably a good side, with good players, but they too struggled their way through the knockouts. Personnel wise they're on a similar level to England, though I think on paper we have the edge in terms of attacking and defensive players, while they obviously have better midfielders.

We should have beaten Croatia. We took the lead and they were all at sea for the first half, could easily have been 2 or 3 nil. When they got on top and we were clearly on the ropes in the second half, he was reactive rather than proactive, and never did anything to remedy the acres of space they had down the right which led to the equaliser. Managers are paid to steady the ship in these situations and work out what is going wrong, it wasn't a case of playing against unstoppable, vastly superior players who he could do little to stop. He was poor, but he deserves time and respect for rebuilding a sense of belief in the England team, and he will get that.

Croatia defenders defended better than the English counterpart. Lovren had a very good tournament, so are the rest of the back four. I never said Croatia are a fantastic team, they are just better than England in many parts of the team. Which I think is fair because I think England is actually quite average.
Southgate has his faults, and I agree with some of your points on him above, it's just I think the criticism is a bit over the top. Losing to a Croatia team that was good enough to battered Argentina into submission and give France a game is understandable. The "could've scored 2 or 3 in the first half" narrative just means England is not a good enough team to take those chances yet.
Southgate have been good IMO, given the talent available and the result he achieved. Other than his tactical naivety, one thing that I'm interested in is how would he maintain the feel good and ego-less vibe in the England camp for next tournaments.
I feel that one of the big factor why England camp was devoid of any drama because most of the players are average. Great players come with big ego most of the time, and most successful manager are the ones that can manage that. Let say England found their Carrick/Scholes type of player to build their midfield around, but he comes with an attitude that could derailed the spirit of the other players. Could Southgate managed that?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Pre-tournament, I looked at our squad of players, and to be honest I was shitting myself.

Maguire
Henderson
Young
Delph
Welbeck
Jones
Dier

A lot of opinions and perceptions have changed over the last month, but let's be honest, the reason no-one expected us to do much at this World Cup was because of the quality at our disposal. Quarter finals were the most optimistic shouts.

Yes, the route to the semi was easier than it could have been, but we didn't completely screw it up and self-implode, and part of the credit has to go to the manager. I'm not saying he's the next Alf Ramsey, but I'd much rather have him than Capello, Hodgson or the Wally with a Brolly.

I feel like this was his probation period in a new job, which he has passed comfortably. Yes, there are a couple of areas that need to be worked on (most notably in-game substations and tactics) but on the whole a very good start.

He generally got good performance levels from most of the squad, created a positive morale and culture, rebuilt some trust and love with the paying public, handed the media exceptionally well, and however you look at it, generated better results than we've had in years.

The Euros will be a much bigger test because all of a sudden there will be some expectation again, but he definitely deserves to have a crack at it.

Yeah, but in fairness that was based on shattered hopes due to PTSD from the Hodgson era. We were used to losing to Iceland ... pretty much any success would have been masssive. Hodgson brought belief back to England supporters and the squad, and for that I'm eternally grateful. That being said I do believe the expectations coming in to the tournmanet were incredibly low, people were suggesting as long as he got out of the groups it was a success. I think quarter finals was always a realistic minimum shout but that was based on the fact that everybody thought we'd probably get a side like Germany or Brazil in the quarters. Thankfully the path was laid out to us, most of the teams who genuinely do have more talent and can be expected to do better were out, but I don't think that list includes Croatia.

I think you have to take in to account circumstances with this semi final, big time. You can't just go 'well he got to a semi' when it's pretty clear to anyone that a brief look at how we got there makes it not a usual semi final. If we had gone the way Belgium had, it would be incredibly different and a colossal achievement for Southgate. End of the day though we didn't beat any top side, finally being able to beat the sides we're better than is an improvement but it shouldn't be over celebrated. He's done a good job but room for improvement.

Your list of players isn't that bad, and nearly every international side has weaker players, unless you have insane strength in depth like France or Spain. Doesn't mean you can't do well. Croatia had a bunch of players in their squad who would be getting ripped apart if they'd made the England one, you don't need world class talent flowing throughout the side. Every single player on your list did decent jobs for top 8 Premier League sides this season aside from maybe Welbeck, and the likes of Henderson made the CL final with Delph winning the league. They weren't instrumental in this but they did jobs at top sides, so why not for England? If people want to look at a side getting way more than the sum of their parts, look at Wales in 2016. They had a better run than us here including beating Belgium 3-1 with the likes of Vokes and Robson Kanu scoring. People talk about England's lack of midfield creativity? They won that day with a midfield of Allen, Ledley and Ramsey. That's overachievement, that is squeezing the most out of your players.

Kane, Sterling, Lingard, Alli all looked terrible or impotent in this England team. That's down to the manager to change, it isn't down to poor personnel, these players score for fun at their clubs and look like different players. Rashford and Vardy too when they came on looked lost. He needs to fix that because we can't rely so heavily on set pieces in the future, the system clearly didn't suit our attacking players at all. Yes, I agree he did brilliantly at rebuilding bridges between England/the fans and the media, in this respect he was fantastic. In terms of his teams actual performances though, he wasn't exceeding its potential at all.

 

[barros]

He was our best player against Croatia.

He's fast but he kept losing the ball when he should pass or shoot.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

He's fast but he kept losing the ball when he should pass or shoot.

He had a far better game than Kane. He relieved pressure, got us up the pitch and was a nuisance for Croatia. He had his best game of the tournament.