have faith (apologies for my non existent photoshop skills)
"I believe our adventure through time has taken a most serious turn."
The John Murtough Era
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"I believe our adventure through time has taken a most serious turn."
Robson was, what, 24, when he signed. He was in the middle of his playing career, in his prime. Without titles or anything, just an emerging talent really. He followed a manager that knew and appreciated him actually. It was Atkinson who made him into a top player or allowed him to flourish or whatever.
So what is similar with Casemiro transfer exactly? I don't see anything relevant at all.
The brazilian is clearly looking for the last payday, his career already made, titles won and so on.
I'm excited for every signing but I'm sure some are aware of the contradiction of spending all summer saying "woodward would have had us chasing dybala or other older established star" We didn't do our diligence and are back to band aiding during what should be the easiest stage of a rebuild. Supposed to be almost impossible to screw up year one with expectations already rock bottom.
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Yes, it will be worth it b/c for the next two years we will be scrapping for top 4. Let’s not kid ourselves, money is a big factor here and you have already seen money alone is not enough to attract the top young talents here. Obviously can’t be sure but you cannot tell me we didn’t want Tchouameni or Camavinga. Obviously they chose RM over the likes of us. I don’t disagree with you that ideally we should buy top young talent but they ain’t coming for obvious reasons. I am not defending Murtaugh at all, he has obviously failed again this summer and flinging money at Casemiro smacks of short term fix. But a short term fix to stem the bleeding and fill in an obvious need at DM for the next couple of seasons whilst we hope to get back to true competitiveness may not be a bad move as we have plenty of other areas to address. I don’t see a lot of moves left for Murtough this window.
Like I said to another poster here, completely agree that this is about money. It’s easy to say we need to get in a lot of players with potential, hunger etc. It doesn’t take a DOF to figure that one out. I agree with you that IDEALLY we should bite the bullet and hold firm. Problem is we are NOT an attractive destination and the basic assumption that we can simply get these young stars is not a very solid one. I am not sure what your solution is here. Continue to pine for FDJ or some other hot young midfielder, knowing we won’t get them (all evidence support this) or alternatively, do nothing, continue to play McFred and get slaughtered? Yes, Casemiro is a short term fix and yes it’s money driven but I am just not sure the club has many other options. He fills a clear need we have had for years and no one can say he is not a top DM.
Which 1st to 2nd contract player is better than Casimero?It might work when your not in a crisis trying to preserve your job and growing reputation.
John murtagh is a lamb thrown to the wolves.. if this so called team is set up of him Arnold sir Alex david gill and robbo. It’s to try deflect blame of them cnuts. We will probably sign a big name before transfer window closes to again try deflect abuse. Glazers are shrewd business men. They don’t care about United they don’t care about the buccaneers they only care about money. The world would be a better place without them. Why has david gill not took the reigns back??
The issue beside the bigger picture stuff, is the timing. If we had bought Casemirofor same financial package before PL start, it would be easier to stomach. It would show the people at the top actually saw the well known issue with our midfield.
Same signing after two defeat but getting found out being reactive without planning will alarm future potential signing that we're the same mess. They would be skeptical about committing their development to us under same upper management until our manager can prove himself.
Listen mate I completely agree with you. I don’t think anyone loves this deal but I am trying to think pragmatically here. Part of the problem is that we should have given up on FDJ long ago. Whose fault is that we don’t know but seems like ETH was insisting. Does that absolve Murtough? No. What it shows is that he cannot do the job and hasn’t demonstrated that he can. That I agree with everyone else. That said, we must stem the bleeding and address a clear need in midfield here. With time running out, options dwindling this may be a desperation move, sure. But what is the alternative? Hold the line and aim for good prospects which aren’t coming and let this club continue to implode?
The growing notion we can't do transfers because we can't attract anyone is mad. We won't be signing the Halands and Mbappes but we can still sign young talent if we want. All the reasons that allow us to recruit a CL winning midfielder can attract one or two talented youngsters even if it's just money, we just have to not do our scouting on Fifa 22. Even then we're just one year removed from signing Sancho, one of the most videogamey talents so it's not like we are helpless in that tier either. It's more challenging but we can do a rebuild very comfortably if we have our shit together.
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No one said we cannot do transfers we want. But have you seen any evidence that we have done this for the past few years and this summer? Have you seen any evidence to show that these young talents whoever they are, want to come here? Or that counterparty clubs are prepared to sell at a reasonable price? What is clear is that we aren’t that attractive a proposition right now for the top young talents you are referring to.
I honestly think almost anyone could spend 60m on Casemiro, and offer him massive wages. What I very stupidly assumed was that we’d see the gradual emergence of some astute signings as a result of data driven player analysis, and potentially unearth a gem or two.
What has transpired has been the exact opposite of that. I’m generally pretty calm about these things because we don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes, or quite how controlling, awkward or dictatorial the owners are; but there has been no encouragement that we are moving in the right direction under this new structure. In fact our recruitment efforts this summer are the worst they have been since the Fellaini summer.
There is literally nothing about our approach which says “intelligent”. We are light years away from establishing any sort of competitive advantage.
What has transpired has been the exact opposite of that. I’m generally pretty calm about these things because we don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes, or quite how controlling, awkward or dictatorial the owners are; but there has been no encouragement that we are moving in the right direction under this new structure. In fact our recruitment efforts this summer are the worst they have been since the Fellaini summer.
There is literally nothing about our approach which says “intelligent”. We are light years away from establishing any sort of competitive advantage.
Thing is we don't have Redbull group's scouting network. You want to see another AWB like disaster?
In a perfect world, we would unearth some random names and they would be valuable assets for years to come but United as a club doesn't have the luxury to risk it for now. Casemiro is a good stop gap signing, if we can secure top 4 for 2-3 seasons he'll be worth it.
Still I do agree with you. As of now, Murtough isn't doing better job than Woodward, he's massively overpaying for big names. It's something we should be moving away from.
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We just got Sancho little over a year ago. We're not a dream destination but this feels like just underplaying our desirability to excuse a lack of transfer creativity. We can still sign youngsters ranging from the big name Sanchos to the lesser known Malacias, we just have to not leave it to 2 weeks before the window closes.
Funny thing here, I completely agree with you, while at the same time, if we end up with Casemiro, I think we will have signed 4 very good players so far.
So we’ve been throwing out lowball offers for mediocre players for the past 2 weeks hinting that we have no budget but now the pressure is on from the fans we’ve suddenly found enough to bid for Casamiro and Antony?
Feck off.
Feck off.
I give him a pass for now if he de jong for us as well.
Yesh. I ageee with that too. Four good players, without a doubt. They all make the squad better. Just 4 very obvious signings. I’m not trying to elucidate you here, because I know you know that. I am just thinking out loud to re-emphasise my point. Two signings ETH had great familiarity with, one obvious Pogba replacement that the media Almost made for us, and one semi panic buy for a massive fee on massive wages, that you might say is a gross over valuation. But the dichotomy on being critical is that he is potentially the perfect signing for what we need.
But at no point there do you get the impression we are utilising data, scouting, analysis, getting value, or building in line with a long term strategy. Quite the opposite. I suppose it was naive of me to ever buy into the structural and operational revolution that the club so proudly beat its chest over.
All these data analysts, sports scientists, scouts, DOF, technical director and deputy DOF only for us to unearth a 30 year old DM from Real Madrid on crazy money.
And since we are leaving it so late, it means we already missed out on some great players we desperately needed, many will not sell now, but also that we will overpay as we are desperate.
I really dont know why they think that they get better deals closer to deadline day. Such a horrible strategy.
Yeah, apparently you can't judge Murtough in so early, you have to give him 2-3 years before his finds his feet. He doestnt have a scouting team you see.
Maybe their original strategy was hoping ETH could miraculously polish our turd of midfield. Getting FdJ at the fee reported would make them look good. Not getting him was not their issue.
Any people with basic understanding of football can see that our midfield is shite. Doesn't need to even hire a scout to spot talent like like Casemiro for his market price. This should have been done before 2 defeats if well planned.
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Amazing isn't it? Casemiro is good, sure, but I really can't get optimistic before we start seeing signs that there's a plan on buildig the squad. I thought the appointment of Murtough was that, but it looks more and more like that he's just there to make it seem so
Yeah, I am not impressed with how we have conducted ourselves, which is why I agree with you. There is nothing imaginative about what we have done from a recruitment point of view. I also would have used the money we've spent and probably are going to spend differently. For example, as much as I rate Antony, 80m is insane for him.
It's insane, because we're insanely overpaying for Martinez giving Ajax extra mil so they can afford to keep Antony. Taking a risk of selling for a bit less next summer; in order to make sure they continue to participate in CL. CL participation is a good long term strategy for club in smaller league like Ajax. Ajax buys themselves time to scout for Antony replacement in the mean while too.
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Completely. Meanwhile we’ve watched players like Gravenberch, Adeyemi, Sesko, all move for reasonable fees. All of whom could have been smart additions. And that’s just tip of the iceberg stuff. One might find a way to shoot down individual propositions, but generally, as you say, as unimaginative as possible, and just not an astute use of funds.
Putting our millions to good use with any kind of decent scouting and analytics department would see us identify the next Casemiro and a player to play alongside him for less than we paid. It's the type of signing anyone here could make with no foresight whatsoever.
We won't be signing a partner for him.
It's almost like Chelsea signed a 31 year old defender for £35million and gave him over £200k a week just because they needed a solution for the here and now.
Not every signing has to be a youngster with resale value. Sometimes a here and now solution is needed. That's the situation we find ourselves in.
Let's not forget Liverpool signed Thiago, an injury prone player for £25m and gave him £200k a week.
And that's all. For some boring well known transfer this summer, Gabriel Jesus, De Ligt, could be a lot better, without being much more expensive than rumored 40-50mil asking price for Gakpo, Martinez (€10 less than De Ligt IIRC).
Hell, even Koulibally would be an interesting signing now it's shown that we're Okay with 30 year old signing stop gap.
The situation we found ourselves in this summer is needing better players in nearly every position on the pitch. A shrewd club with an actual scouting and analysis department would have identified the players required long ago and spent the money more wisely across all positions.
What we've done again is to try shortcut our way out by overspending on a past his best player, plugging one hole while leaving the others. We've been here before.
Its not comparable to Chelsea or Liverpool who already have well oiled machines which just need a tweak here and there.
Thiago was a year younger (29) when they signed him two years ago for half the price. His injury problems don't exactly say we should be copying either. We've seen it ourselves with Varane.
While I get we will basically take anyone in midfield who is half world class.
Why are we signing players for £70m with zero sell on potential and selling possible international level players Levitt and Garner for £15.3n combined?
Basically throwing them out the club for scraps. Makes little sense to me. Madrid get a free replacement now in Tchnounemi who cost a similar amount and is 10 years younger!
If he gets us CL amazing but as it stands Madrid are laughing building their next generation of stars while we are clutching at straws selling our future.
Why are we signing players for £70m with zero sell on potential and selling possible international level players Levitt and Garner for £15.3n combined?
Basically throwing them out the club for scraps. Makes little sense to me. Madrid get a free replacement now in Tchnounemi who cost a similar amount and is 10 years younger!
If he gets us CL amazing but as it stands Madrid are laughing building their next generation of stars while we are clutching at straws selling our future.
I’ve had a lovely 24 hours or so off social media and news and everything seems to have changed - can anyone summarise whether all these new transfers are clickbait bs or likely to happen? The last I heard yesterday morning was that Radcliffe was serious about a small stake-could the Glazers be increasing the value or is Murtough panicking, or is he just going to fail like a dick as usual?
Wake the feck up.
There was nothing stopping him from revamping the scouting network much earlier, he didn’t start his job in June.
He’s just incompetent and the only thing he’s good at is releasing stories for the media to talk about what a great job he’s doing when he did feck all of note.
He could have done a lot worse. Regardless of some of the shortcomings of Age, wages, etc , we have added a proven winner to the squad and the benefits of that alone outweighs other negatives. Murtough could have finished the transfer business earlier but if he can add another top attacker to the team I would give him 8/10 for the summer window.
And I wouldn't blame him for the DeJong Fiasco as that was clearly on Ten Hag , may be now onwards he shouldn't rely solely on the manager in terms of the transfers and get things done quicker.
As for the hidden gems and the frugal signings, there are more entities like scouts and other technical guys involved and it is a game of probabilities if those will succeed or not. We need experts for those and I hope those critical appointments are done right as our track record has been poor on that front.
And I wouldn't blame him for the DeJong Fiasco as that was clearly on Ten Hag , may be now onwards he shouldn't rely solely on the manager in terms of the transfers and get things done quicker.
As for the hidden gems and the frugal signings, there are more entities like scouts and other technical guys involved and it is a game of probabilities if those will succeed or not. We need experts for those and I hope those critical appointments are done right as our track record has been poor on that front.
I disagree entirely.
We are not buying a crock here, at least historically.
We are buying a player who is still playing at the top of his game.
You keep saying a shrewd club would have found a you get player, yet that's not always the case, Liverpool, Chelsea, City, any club you care to mention do Indeed spend money on players over thirty.
You could argue that we are in this situation in midfield only, however we brought in VdB as a young option which hasn't worked out, we had McTominay come through the ranks as a young option which he has stalled slightly in his development, we have Garner who unfortunately doesn't seem to be ready or potentially good enough. We have Hannibal who again isn't ready yet, we have Iqbal who isn't quite ready yet.
We have potential options, we need someone to hold the fort until they are ready.
Why would these players come to United and not where they ended up? Would we have paid over the top to sign them? If they flopped, how would we sell them?
Fans need to start understanding not every player dreams of playing for United and we should not go for every player out there.
this is why I'd sign Vardy in a heart beat. Very good temporary cover until we find good young striker
The players we have paid fees for 2 of them fit the contract 1 or 2 profile exactly the other looks to be experienced and our other transfer was free
Claude Makelele was same age as Casemiro when signed for Chelsea nearly exactly the same as it goes, everyone can agree that transfer worked for Chelsea very well.
Claude Makelele was same age as Casemiro when signed for Chelsea nearly exactly the same as it goes, everyone can agree that transfer worked for Chelsea very well.
Hopefully it won't stop from here since even monster player like Cas doesn't solve every problem in midfield United had since SAF left.
Also leaving Ten Hag with current attacking lineup almost equals to throwing him under the bus. Some smart moves still required.
Also leaving Ten Hag with current attacking lineup almost equals to throwing him under the bus. Some smart moves still required.
The players Madrid have bought - the most promising midfielders of their generation along with the Barca kids - only wanted to go there. There was no chance of signing them back then and much less now that our club has truly hit the shit. Now, I think it's clear our transfer strategy this summer has been absolutely appalling but signing Casemiro is a no-brainer. Outside of him actually wanting to join, the biggest surprise is that the toad in charge at Chelsea hasn't tried to hijack the deal yet.
If Casemiro comes off he should consider himself a lucky boy that the player just happened to be amenable to a move. The approach clearly came out of complete desperation rather than from any sort of cohesive strategy.
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