The lack of athleticism

[BehemothTerror]

Could the academy provide us something that we are missing in this team? By playing Amad at RWB it seems he wants more of an attacking profile playing there but Amad clearly needs to be further up the field.

Obviously he had Quenda at sporting. We have Mantato(probably too early) in the academy who has played at full back for England and is a similar kind of player. Wonder whether we could look to promote.

We have several great prospects particularly in the U18 but sadly it's probably a year too early at least for most of them

 

[Borys]

Because they’re learning a new formation/system. So they’ll have all been obsessing about team shape and not being caught out of position. Which inevitably causes a static performance. Once they relax a bit more it will all get more fluid and they’ll play with more freedom and cover more ground.

That looks indeed as a big factor. There is a difference to ETH's suicidal 415 tactics that left midfielder exposed and will a lot of ground to cover. I rarely felt like the team was out of shape, we had bodies in Central and defensive areas. It just looked like every player needed extra half a second to make a decision. You can't half that on this level, it has to be instinctive. Which is why I'm not particularly worried atm. This will take time, although it sounds like a big risk cause we'll need to go all-in to make this work. Otherwise, it's just a change in formation, without a proper change of players roles and responsibilities in the system.

 

[Red00012]

We ran 102 KM , second lowest by us this season.
So much for busting a gut for the new manager. Amorim has his work cut out with these

 

[Desert Eagle]

We ran 102 KM , second lowest by us this season.
So much for busting a gut for the new manager. Amorim has his work cut out with these

Shameful

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Davies is a start.

 

[wolvored]

Because they’re learning a new formation/system. So they’ll have all been obsessing about team shape and not being caught out of position. Which inevitably causes a static performance. Once they relax a bit more it will all get more fluid and they’ll play with more freedom and cover more ground.

RA alluded to that in his interview. Lets hope the second bit comes as well.

 

[P0GBA]

Not sure it's really that important, it's just the quality of players that matter. Hoijlund, Mainoo and Ugarte have more athleticism than Rashford, Casemiro and Erikson.but the latter three will score you more goals combined. Ronaldo, Kroos and Modric are all finished at the top level in terms of athleticism but combined they'd outscore any three of our players.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Why don't they have the legs for it? Eriksen I understand, maybe even Casemiro. But the rest? They train almost every day, they have professionals coach them on fitness, they have professional chefs and dietritians sorting out their meals. What's the excuse?

I'm of the opinion we still have a hangover from past cultural influences within the club that led to less than desirable traits, rather than it being purely physical. Laziness, lack of professionalism, poor work ethic, entitlement. Rashford epitomises it.

This.

We have enough athletes, for example Amad outran 2 players for his assist and Dalot easily beat Hutchinson in a foot race, Hojlund can bully players off the ball and Bruno & Garna run all game, the issues today were:

- obviously Eriksen and Evans can't provide physical intensity, Evans was guilty and allowed Hutchinson alot of space, once Shaw came in, he stuck to Hutchinson and made him disappear.

- MdL and Maz didn't step in enough times when needed, they choose to stay back, Amorim aluded to this too.

- Rashford does not run and chase as hard as he is supposed to, Ipswich players ran at our backline and pressed like animals.

Hopefully Amorim addresses these issues, he did say the players don't run enough and that has to change.

 

[ScholesBrain]

Rashford and Zirkzee are epitomes of our this problem and both need to go

 

[gaffs]

We ran 102 KM , second lowest by us this season.
So much for busting a gut for the new manager. Amorim has his work cut out with these

It is because we dont press.

We play like a 90s team. Forwards just jogging towards a defender, knowing they are not trying to win the ball, but doing it because they think they should.

It will be tough. We know Ten Hag wanted to press but couldn't get them to do so effectively and with any consistency. Amorim Sporting were great at pressing from the front. It takes fitness and intelligence to do it effectively.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It’s a combination of lack of legs and lack of quality off the ball.

Rashford and Garnacho are examples of forwards who are mostly ineffective in the press and allow opponents to play around us easily. The latter tries harder but both do little to disrupt the opposition (unlike Amad and Antony).

On top of that, the likes of Casemiro and Eriksen genuinely don’t have the legs to compete at this level unless the opponents sit back. They just don’t get to their man quick enough and actually that’s a trend with most of the team.

Even Bruno who is always available and has a good engine lacks of the physicality to impact opposition midfields.

At the end of the day, you can carry one and on the odd occasion two bad presseds but not 4-5.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

It’s a combination of lack of legs and lack of quality off the ball.

Rashford and Garnacho are examples of forwards who are mostly ineffective in the press and allow opponents to play around us easily. The latter tries harder but both do little to disrupt the opposition (unlike Amad and Antony).

On top of that, the likes of Casemiro and Eriksen genuinely don’t have the legs to compete at this level unless the opponents sit back. They just don’t get to their man quick enough and actually that’s a trend with most of the team.

Even Bruno who is always available and has a good engine lacks of the physicality to impact opposition midfields.

At the end of the day, you can carry one and on the odd occasion two bad presseds but not 4-5.

Yep. Looking at that starting XI:

-Evans, MdL, Case, Eriksen all quite slow/sluggish and lacking legs
- Bruno isn't any sort of robust athlete. He has great cardio but he's pretty slow and weak all things considered. Definitely not someone that's going to win a bunch of 50/50's or drive through the midfield with the ball.
- Rashford has largely lost any hint of explosiveness and has always been terrible in duels/challenges. Also isn't going to do a bunch of running
- Garnacho is decently quick but lacks balance and can be shrugged off the ball pretty easily. Good stamina though

So that's 7 players right there that all will struggle and either be outpaced/outmuscled by opposition a good amount of the time. That's such a high number that you'd need a squad of elite technicians to make up for it (which we don't have). But it's why you can watch that game today and so much of what made Ipswich dangerous is that they could simply beat us in all the aspects of the game that don't even require the ball. Once we can fix that issue in our squad, I think performances will have a much higher baseline to build upon.

 

[Freak]

We ran 102 KM , second lowest by us this season.
So much for busting a gut for the new manager. Amorim has his work cut out with these

That stat might be misleading though. We had to run a lot previously because ETH set us up to play an open basketball like game. So players were constantly running up and down like headless chickens. With a proper, tighter structure, you would see players having to run less to cover ground because they are closer to their teammates and there is lesser space.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I think it is a mixture of a) not playing smart, b) actually not having many players who are at least above average in terms of athleticism and c) too many players being enough hungry enough. It is nice that this pops up now, lets see whether it sticks to peoples minds when they continue their best-elevents with Eriksen-Casemiro-Shaw-Martinez and Rashford.

Were they? Were they really good? Or were they not as shit as earlier pairings? Depending on the system we want to play, some players simply don't have a place in the team. With 3atb, you usually don't have a sitting DM - one of the CB takes most aspects of this role in most cases. The 2 players in there have to be mobile and industrious plus they have to be useful in all aspects of the game. Right now this only applies to Mainoo and Ugarte, maybe(maybe!!!!) Bruno against really easy and stand-off-ish opposition. Minutes for Eriksen and Casemiro are wastes of time at this point. We'd be better off giving them to young players - when they are good, they might have a future here, if they aren't good, at least we know and can sell them. Only place for Eriksen and Casemiro should be cup games.

Yeah they were. They both had some of the best stats in the league in terms of winning the ball back. Sure to be successful we are going to need more than that but they were good together and gave us a solid base to work from.

I would like Mainoo to go in there but then he doesn’t fit the profile of what Ruben says he wants in a player. He is neither athletic nor plays with intensity. He tends to tire very easily so if we are going to ask him to play with intensity expect him to be tiring even quicker.

He is still young enough that maybe you can drill a mentality shift in to him but it’s hard to make people faster players if they just don’t have any natural speed to begin with. So he kinda leaves you with the same issues we lament Eriksen and Casemiro for.

There is however if we just get better on the ball and better at protecting the ball then these players should be less exposed but yesterday we had Eriksen pushing really high and just Cas staying back which then sort of screwed us as Erik just couldn’t get back and Evans when he was stepping in was giving away fouls or just losing it straight away.

 

[devilish]

switching system mid season is a problem especially when we lack the staff to do so. Asking the likes of Rashford, Casemiro and Eriksen to play with intensity is like asking a vampire to eat garlic.

 

[GoodTimes]

What's amazing is Ten Hag said when he joined the biggest mistake Guardiola made when he first came to English players was misjudging the physicality of the league - then he leaves this squad behind?!

 

[Idxomer]

It's physicality combined with being weak on the ball. Yesterday, you could count on one hand the players who could handle the ball under pressure. It was just Amad, Mazraoui, Onana and sometimes Bruno.

 

[The Red Thinker]

Will be interesting to see how much business we do in January.

Can we sell off some of our players and bring in some quality?

Or maybe he turns to the academy? Even in the academy he’s not happy with the physicality of most of them looking at some of his comments in wanting to improve the academy. We have some great touch and technical players there but physically not the best. Specially in midfield.

Collyer might have a go. Kukonki is so young. Amass maybe. Ibragimov is knocking on the door this season but he’s quite tiny for someone playing so centrally. No problems with his on ball abilities physically, aerially is my worry.

That’s my inference at least.

 

[AneRu]

What's amazing is Ten Hag said when he joined the biggest mistake Guardiola made when he first came to English players was misjudging the physicality of the league - then he leaves this squad behind?!

I think the problem is just him, he had a big part in it, but for a long time even before he came we have had this tendency to go for players we can buy not the ones we actually want or need.

Look through our history we have signed Di Maria because Madrid wanted him out, Pogba because Raoila could push him to us, Sanchez because he wanted out of Arsenal who didnt want to lose him for free, Herrera who had a release clause, DVB because we could easily pluck him out of Ajax, Casemiro because he wanted a last big payday, Mount because Chelsea didn't offer him the contract he wanted etc. Some signings look like coups but they really aren't, we are just exploiting their situation with their club and we need a player in his position but we don't look at his attributes as a player.

Some players work out for the best but most really don't because we are not buying according to the specifications of what we actually need.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

I'm curious as to why people are categorising Kobbie as one of the "athletic" players. He's young and he's a superb technical footballer, but he's not athletic.

 

[BuzzKillington]

Why don't they have the legs for it? Eriksen I understand, maybe even Casemiro. But the rest? They train almost every day, they have professionals coach them on fitness, they have professional chefs and dietritians sorting out their meals. What's the excuse?

I'm of the opinion we still have a hangover from past cultural influences within the club that led to less than desirable traits, rather than it being purely physical. Laziness, lack of professionalism, poor work ethic, entitlement. Rashford epitomises it.

I feel like Jose’s rest-defence never really went away. We were the laziest team under him and it’s never changed. We seem to fall back into it whenever things start going wrong.

 

[NZT-One]

That stat might be misleading though. We had to run a lot previously because ETH set us up to play an open basketball like game. So players were constantly running up and down like headless chickens. With a proper, tighter structure, you would see players having to run less to cover ground because they are closer to their teammates and there is lesser space.

Not sure, that is really true. ETHs system wasn't good but it didn't ask for more running than any other team or system would that is comparatively using a press like ours. An organized press will always require more running and given that our team isn't known for being intense or above average in workrate, I'd be pretty suprised, if the ground covered stats wouldn't go up. Its one aspect, that smaller teams had to have a go at us since quite some time: they are outworking us. And it doesn't take much.

Yeah they were. They both had some of the best stats in the league in terms of winning the ball back. Sure to be successful we are going to need more than that but they were good together and gave us a solid base to work from.

Against poor opposition.

I would like Mainoo to go in there but then he doesn’t fit the profile of what Ruben says he wants in a player. He is neither athletic nor plays with intensity. He tends to tire very easily so if we are going to ask him to play with intensity expect him to be tiring even quicker.

From what I read, the midfielders at Sporting weren't Kante or Fred types as well. Also him growing into his body will mean that where he is now athletically isn't where he will be in 6 month, a year or two years. Mainoo is the one player we have to integrate in our teams, if he doesn't fit at all, we have to sell which would be mad.

He is still young enough that maybe you can drill a mentality shift in to him but it’s hard to make people faster players if they just don’t have any natural speed to begin with. So he kinda leaves you with the same issues we lament Eriksen and Casemiro for.

Not sure thats true. The issue with those two are different. While both are rather slow regarding their pace, Eriksen has the issue being a weak and easy to shrug off. Casemiro is the opposite of that but hasn't adapted to league or his current capabilities and overcommits too often which takes himself out of situations.

There is however if we just get better on the ball and better at protecting the ball then these players should be less exposed but yesterday we had Eriksen pushing really high and just Cas staying back which then sort of screwed us as Erik just couldn’t get back and Evans when he was stepping in was giving away fouls or just losing it straight away.

You have to become really really good on the ball to get to a point, where you can "afford" players in the squad only for their on-the-ball abilities. I think, we are more than one or two levels away from such a state. And given that, there is no point to play, especially Eriksen, in midfield in a league game anymore. If you want him on the pitch, then find a way to have him further forward but we have to stop thinking that this team can afford to play AMs in central midfield without suffering from the consequences of it.

We shouldn't overestimate the meaning of yesterdays game and performance. The lineup may had more to do with availability than preference on Amorims part. But no matter what, if Eriksen and Casemiro are the somehow the answer then the question is all wrong.

 

[Cloudface]

That stat might be misleading though. We had to run a lot previously because ETH set us up to play an open basketball like game. So players were constantly running up and down like headless chickens. With a proper, tighter structure, you would see players having to run less to cover ground because they are closer to their teammates and there is lesser space.

It's hard to find stats on this for the PL but the Champions League does track distance covered for teams.

The average distance covered for Liverpool was 115km a game. Man City 112km a game. Inter 115km a game. Villa 113km a game.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/standings/

I don't think they are all an unorganised mess and that's why they run so much. More likely they understand that to properly defend and attack you need to work for it.

It probably makes sense of why we often look like we play with a man less, because some days we effectively are with the difference in running between teams.

 

[AndyMUFC]

It’s definitely our biggest issue. If you keep losing every 50-50 and are second to every ball, you’ll struggle in a lot of games in the Premier League. It’s a basic fundamental of football at any level.

It’s just a combination of things. You’ve got players that don’t have the legs, younger players that get knocked off the ball and others that just don’t play with any intensity,

 

[Malone_Post]

It could've been addressed in the summer window just gone but for some strange reason it was decided that we had to sign Ugarte and Zirkzee who imo wasn't needed due to his profile. I think the backline has potential when everyone is fit but the midfield is nowhere near good enough as a collective unit to propel the team forward as far as playing a more dominant brand of football.

The issue isn't just athleticism which I've been banging on about for years. But the issues when it comes to the midfield as a composition is that we not only lack athleticism and recovery pace but also the inability to play out of confined spaces against the opposition press. Mainoo will provide some of the missing ingredients when it comes to playing in confined spaces but he needs to be backed up by players alongside him in midfield who have the physical, athletic and technical qualities to play a more vertical game. So keeping the ball, evading the press and breaking lines at a good level is an absolute requirement for the defensive and deeper midfield lines. And our midfield as a composition just isn't balanced enough to control opposition transitions and also not good enough in-possession to evade the press and progress the ball forward. When your midfield lacks the aforementioned attributes as a collective, then the ceiling of the entire team is affected. When your deeper midfield players or CBs lack in the aforementioned attributes then you allow the opposition to be even more effective in their own game plan which is what has been happening.

I've been saying the same thing for years and I'll say it again, we need to raise the physical, athletic and technical quality of the team with the deeper midfield positions being our weaknesses. Just one player with the right attributes coming into central
midfield could have a big impact because the backline seems to have potential. And until proper upgrades are brought in it might be wise to not go too attacking against certain teams. Because as you saw with the game earlier, all three results were possible where we could've lost/won but ended up drawing.

Fantastic post. Absolutely nailed it.

 

[CloneMC16]

We're still playing Casemiro and Eriksen in midfield when it's been obvious for ages now that it isn't athletic enough. When we finally fix the midfield, we might start to improve.

 

[devilish]

It could've been addressed in the summer window just gone but for some strange reason it was decided that we had to sign Ugarte and Zirkzee who imo wasn't needed due to his profile. I think the backline has potential when everyone is fit but the midfield is nowhere near good enough as a collective unit to propel the team forward as far as playing a more dominant brand of football.

The issue isn't just athleticism which I've been banging on about for years. But the issues when it comes to the midfield as a composition is that we not only lack athleticism and recovery pace but also the inability to play out of confined spaces against the opposition press. Mainoo will provide some of the missing ingredients when it comes to playing in confined spaces but he needs to be backed up by players alongside him in midfield who have the physical, athletic and technical qualities to play a more vertical game. So keeping the ball, evading the press and breaking lines at a good level is an absolute requirement for the defensive and deeper midfield lines. And our midfield as a composition just isn't balanced enough to control opposition transitions and also not good enough in-possession to evade the press and progress the ball forward. When your midfield lacks the aforementioned attributes as a collective, then the ceiling of the entire team is affected. When your deeper midfield players or CBs lack in the aforementioned attributes then you allow the opposition to be even more effective in their own game plan which is what has been happening.

I've been saying the same thing for years and I'll say it again, we need to raise the physical, athletic and technical quality of the team with the deeper midfield positions being our weaknesses. Just one player with the right attributes coming into central
midfield could have a big impact because the backline seems to have potential. And until proper upgrades are brought in it might be wise to not go too attacking against certain teams. Because as you saw with the game earlier, all three results were possible where we could've lost/won but ended up drawing.

Fantastic post as per usual

One question. We've been saying there's a lack of athletism for years now yet for most of the timecwe kept signing old players + no 10s in CM. Do you think there a reason to that or is it down to bad recruitment?

 

[Rooney25]

Casemiro, Ericsson, evans, linderoff and maguire will leave this summer, that will free us of 5 non athletic players

 

[justsomebloke]

I'm curious as to why people are categorising Kobbie as one of the "athletic" players. He's young and he's a superb technical footballer, but he's not athletic.

True. Actually that is his most obvious shortcoming. Still young though, I suppose he may grow into it.

 

[golden_blunder]

@Adnan said it for years, we need to inject physical players who can handle the ball well, particularly at CB and midfield

 

[Marwood]

I feel like Jose’s rest-defence never really went away. We were the laziest team under him and it’s never changed. We seem to fall back into it whenever things start going wrong.

Different set of players though. It can't be a hangover from Jose.

We're not lazy as a team though. Not under ETH anyway.

We're athletically not the best and we give the ball away a lot. But in terms of distance covered the vast majority of players give it plenty of effort.

 

[Kingslayer18]

It could've been addressed in the summer window just gone but for some strange reason it was decided that we had to sign Ugarte and Zirkzee who imo wasn't needed due to his profile. I think the backline has potential when everyone is fit but the midfield is nowhere near good enough as a collective unit to propel the team forward as far as playing a more dominant brand of football.

The issue isn't just athleticism which I've been banging on about for years. But the issues when it comes to the midfield as a composition is that we not only lack athleticism and recovery pace but also the inability to play out of confined spaces against the opposition press. Mainoo will provide some of the missing ingredients when it comes to playing in confined spaces but he needs to be backed up by players alongside him in midfield who have the physical, athletic and technical qualities to play a more vertical game. So keeping the ball, evading the press and breaking lines at a good level is an absolute requirement for the defensive and deeper midfield lines. And our midfield as a composition just isn't balanced enough to control opposition transitions and also not good enough in-possession to evade the press and progress the ball forward. When your midfield lacks the aforementioned attributes as a collective, then the ceiling of the entire team is affected. When your deeper midfield players or CBs lack in the aforementioned attributes then you allow the opposition to be even more effective in their own game plan which is what has been happening.

I've been saying the same thing for years and I'll say it again, we need to raise the physical, athletic and technical quality of the team with the deeper midfield positions being our weaknesses. Just one player with the right attributes coming into central
midfield could have a big impact because the backline seems to have potential. And until proper upgrades are brought in it might be wise to not go too attacking against certain teams. Because as you saw with the game earlier, all three results were possible where we could've lost/won but ended up drawing.

You've been mentioning this issue for years and it is a massive factor why we're outplayed in midfield every season. People here were looking down on Amadou Onana and yet championing Ugarte. We would have a far better midfield if we'd targetted Onana instead of Ugarte and not tried to go for Branthwaite first. We obviously figured Everton would only sell one and prioritised Branthwaite. Onana would be perfect for Amorim and that central 2 in midfield with him and Mainoo would've left Amorim with a lot to work with.

 

[Josh 76]

I am 100% certain if we had signed Gravenberch, we still would have been asking the same questions. No matter who we sign, they look crap when they the put on the Utd shirt. Then the players who we miss out on, look amazing. Even players like Elanga, Mctomminy and Welbeck all seem more athletic than what we have. I think coaching and playing to a system is a major factor. Hopefully Amorim can change that.

 

[OL29]

I'm curious as to why people are categorising Kobbie as one of the "athletic" players. He's young and he's a superb technical footballer, but he's not athletic.

He's pretty good at winning duels which we really struggle with but he does lack in speed and stamina.

 

[El Zoido]

We need a huge upgrade in the attacking positions. As well as lowering the age of the midfield dramatically and the work needs to start immediately in the January window, the club is now being prepped for Open Heart Surgery.

We’re screwed with FFP and can’t recruit in January. We’ll get one player on loan at best.

 

[OL29]

I still find it strange that ETH highlighted Pep not addressing the need for physicality in the premier league as an oversight when he first arrived, yet decided to stockpile us with athletically limited players.

 

[ScholesBrain]

I am 100% certain if we had signed Gravenberch, we still would have been asking the same questions. No matter who we sign, they look crap when they the put on the Utd shirt. Then the players who we miss out on, look amazing. Even players like Elanga, Mctomminy and Welbeck all seem more athletic than what we have. I think coaching and playing to a system is a major factor. Hopefully Amorim can change that.

Sometimes I feel it may be the fault of our medical/physio department

 

[devilish]

I still find it strange that ETH highlighted Pep not addressing the need for physicality in the premier league as an oversight when he first arrived, yet decided to stockpile us with athletically limited players.

That's why we can't let managers take decisions regarding transfers. It's baffling though why so many successive managers had claimed one thing and then went on totally different type of players. It's almost like they set themselves to fail

 

[greater wall]

It's not only athletism but also height. It's one reason that Casemiro plays. He is a magnet for headers in both boxes. Maguire, Evans are both defenders who know how to defend corners.

 

[sunama]

It is not an overnight thing, it’s going to take months before we see a real improvement in this department.

I would argue that unless the management put a huge focus on fitness, this issue won't be improved.
We've been one of the unfittest teams for a while now and I just don't see it changing unless we focus on that aspect.