The lack of athleticism

[Solius]

Might see him have to fast-track the likes of Kone, Amass, etc.. to get the desired effect since we're unlikely to be able to afford transfers until the summer.

 

[dwd]

I would argue that unless the management put a huge focus on fitness, this issue won't be improved.
We've been one of the unfittest teams for a while now and I just don't see it changing unless we focus on that aspect.

Of course it won’t but to expect it to improve in 5 days, 2 of which with the new staff is plainly mental and ridiculous.

 

[stevoc]

This was a problem 3 managers and 2 squads ago. It wasn't addressed over the last 5-6 years for some reason.

 

[dwd]

I also find the circlejerking over ten Hag making the players do a long run after a game utterly stupid aswell. No wonder we had so many injuries under that idiot.

Let’s give the new fitness staff an actual chance to do their job before moaning.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Might see him have to fast-track the likes of Kone, Amass, etc.. to get the desired effect since we're unlikely to be able to afford transfers until the summer.

I've been thinking this as well lately. There are too many weak links in the current squad for his system, and since he (smartly) doesn't want to compensate the plan just for short term results this season, I think he'll have to give a lot of those academy players some chances to shine.

 

[Tincanalley]

I think there's a slight nuance to both, Erik recruited / formed a team that has relatively good endurance but being poor when it comes to physical composition.

Even Delap today, hardly a powerhouse but looked to shrug multiple defenders off in different periods of the game.

It's a reason why I'm behind the club obtaining a defender like Branthwaite as given his standing he should be solid in shoulder to shoulders and clearing the box from ariel threats.

But it wouldn't be the first time being deceived, Hojlund is on paper genetically well profiled but when seeing him play looks like a 5ft8 individual, without the balance, explosiveness someone with a lower center of gravity possesses.

Quality post

 

[Marwood]

I think there's a slight nuance to both, Erik recruited / formed a team that has relatively good endurance but being poor when it comes to physical composition.

Even Delap today, hardly a powerhouse but looked to shrug multiple defenders off in different periods of the game.

It's a reason why I'm behind the club obtaining a defender like Branthwaite as given his standing he should be solid in shoulder to shoulders and clearing the box from ariel threats.

But it wouldn't be the first time being deceived, Hojlund is on paper genetically well profiled but when seeing him play looks like a 5ft8 individual, without the balance, explosiveness someone with a lower center of gravity possesses.

Agree on that as a team. We're not short on lungs and distance covered. Strength,speed and willingness to use it is more the issue.

But I think it's a bit harsh on Hojlund. He gives defenders a hard time physically. He's just not getting the timing right of when to be physical.

He's not much use in the air but nobody is anymore. I'd say he's actually one of the few who has the right physical profile.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Might see him have to fast-track the likes of Kone, Amass, etc.. to get the desired effect since we're unlikely to be able to afford transfers until the summer.

Both are quite small and seem a few years away from first team football, or?

 

[Adnan]

Fantastic post as per usual

One question. We've been saying there's a lack of athletism for years now yet for most of the timecwe kept signing old players + no 10s in CM. Do you think there a reason to that or is it down to bad recruitment?

I think the problem has been that we have had a strategy but that strategy was flawed as far as playing a more expansive brand of football in the present day EPL. And I think the problem has been the managers post Fergie from Moyes onwards who have signed players without taking into account how it would affect how we defend higher up the pitch in a higher defensive line. And if we start with Moyes, he signed two players in Fellaini and Mata who were both weak when it comes to defending on the front foot and lacked the speed to cover ground quickly. And that set the ball rolling as far as making us into a more conservative team who relied on quick transitions against any half decent team. And even after Moyes, things didn't improve much because, again the pace and power aspect of the team was neglected.

If we as a team want to dominate the game and play higher up the pitch with the high press being the first line of defense and the back-line (CBs) being the last line of defense, where defending near the half way line to squeeze the pitch and suffocate the opposition in their own half. Then we need players in the CB positions and deeper midfield who have the pace, power and technical quality to both progress the ball forward whilst retaining the ball at a good standard along with the ability to contain or control transitions in larger spaces. This team can't do this to a high enough standard and hasn't been able to do it for a number of years because the details are being neglected, especially out of possession. Because as a opposition manager it's very easy to play against us because if you disrupt our build up play from the CBs into midfield, then you've succeeded in throwing the spanner in the works into our system of play which will then effect the rest of the team and we'll resort to playing more direct football.

I would personally prioritise the signings of two midfielders and another CB who elevate our game as far as the missing attributes are concerned. Diomande or Branthwaite at CB with players like Carlos Baleba and Angelo Stiller in midfield who would provide a good blend of physical, athletic and technical quality.

You've been mentioning this issue for years and it is a massive factor why we're outplayed in midfield every season. People here were looking down on Amadou Onana and yet championing Ugarte. We would have a far better midfield if we'd targetted Onana instead of Ugarte and not tried to go for Branthwaite first. We obviously figured Everton would only sell one and prioritised Branthwaite. Onana would be perfect for Amorim and that central 2 in midfield with him and Mainoo would've left Amorim with a lot to work with.

Onana was better than Ugarte physically, athletically and as far as playing the ball forward. But we've ended up signing Ugarte and eventhough I'm not a big fan of him, I think if we brought in a Carlos Baleba along with someone like Angelo Stiller it wouldn't look too bad to have Ugarte in the squad.

 

[Solius]

Both are quite small and seem a few years away from first team football, or?

I think it’s more about pace, endurance and agility than strength and height. But those would be desired too.

 

[bushyzor]

We need to borrow some Asthma pumps from Liverpool.

 

[JakeC]

Dalot is a great example of what's needed, as is Ugarte. It's not just physicality, but mentality as well.

Amad has the heart of a lion, and runs like feck, he's also quite good at shielding the ball for a man his size. Same can be said for Martinez.

Rasmus needs to be a bit meaner and dirtier, he gets bullied quite a lot.

Rashford is the one player I REALLY want to see do well. He's one of our one, born and bred. However, his attitude changes like the wind. Not even game by game, but minute by minute.

Bruno is fine, he's fitter than anyone, same with Mazz.

 

[devilish]

I think the problem has been that we have had a strategy but that strategy was flawed as far as playing a more expansive brand of football in the present day EPL. And I think the problem has been the managers post Fergie from Moyes onwards who have signed players without taking into account how it would affect how we defend higher up the pitch in a higher defensive line. And if we start with Moyes, he signed two players in Fellaini and Mata who were both weak when it comes to defending on the front foot and lacked the speed to cover ground quickly. And that set the ball rolling as far as making us into a more conservative team who relied on quick transitions against any half decent team. And even after Moyes, things didn't improve much because, again the pace and power aspect of the team was neglected.

If we as a team want to dominate the game and play higher up the pitch with the high press being the first line of defense and the back-line (CBs) being the last line of defense, where defending near the half way line to squeeze the pitch and suffocate the opposition in their own half. Then we need players in the CB positions and deeper midfield who have the pace, power and technical quality to both progress the ball forward whilst retaining the ball at a good standard along with the ability to contain or control transitions in larger spaces. This team can't do this to a high enough standard and hasn't been able to do it for a number of years because the details are being neglected, especially out of possession. Because as a opposition manager it's very easy to play against us because if you disrupt our build up play from the CBs into midfield, then you've succeeded in throwing the spanner in the works into our system of play which will then effect the rest of the team and we'll resort to playing more direct football.

I would personally prioritise the signings of two midfielders and another CB who elevate our game as far as the missing attributes are concerned. Diomande or Branthwaite at CB with players like Carlos Baleba and Angelo Stiller in midfield who would provide a good blend of physical, athletic and technical quality.


Onana was better than Ugarte physically, athletically and as far as playing the ball forward. But we've ended up signing Ugarte and eventhough I'm not a big fan of him, I think if we brought in a Carlos Baleba along with someone like Angelo Stiller it wouldn't look too bad to have Ugarte in the squad.

I agree with all you said however I think there's a fourth element that is often ignored ie politics. As you are well aware CM is were often football is won and lost which makes it imperative for managers not to lose the dressing room there. Ironically it started pre SAF with the old fox refusing to add new blood into his ageing CM despite the obvious need. We even lost Pogba because of that.

Moyes came in, he failed to bring in Fabregas and he then opted for Fellaini knowing that his pet would give his 100% for him with Mata coming in January when we were struggling to create chances and goals. LVG signed his own people as well (Blind and Schweinsteiger), the EPL 'proven' (excuse the pun) Schneiderlin and Herrera. He was then followed by Mou who stuck to Fellaini (who gave his all under all managers), brought his man as well (Matic) and promoted McT whom, tbf, bled for him. Mou was then given the flashy big name signing (Pogba), which LVG had with De Maria and Moyes with Mata and he refused to play Fred who seem not to be his signing. Ole stuck with McFred and brought the big name signing Bruno. Then ETH came in with his horde of players who played in the Eredivisie (Mount, Amrabat, Eriksen), the big name signing (Casemiro) and again the player that was brought on him whom he didn't want/didn't play (Ugarte).

It seems to me that there's a pattern there with managers engaging in a sort of thug of war with the club with the former trying to bring their own guys and the club trying to bring the big name/signings they don't want. Both parties seems so consumed in such politics that they couldn't really bring the players we need to bring such balance in midfield. Their lack of football knowledge of how to manage a successful EPL side (only Mou had that and for most of the time he was aided by a top DOF) didn't help either as mistakes were made. I mean Eriksen, Bruno and an ageing Casemiro in CM? Seriously?

 

[Josh 76]

We need to borrow some Asthma pumps from Liverpool.

Who ever they sign, all seem to become athletic some way or another.

 

[Andrei Kanspellthis]

If ChaptGPT could summarise all valid points made in this and other threads after the Ipswich game, Amorim would have the blueprint to start from. To (attempt) that, I think the consensus of what we need is:
- Pace, endurance, mobility
- More specifically, a high-octane midfielder who's technically gifted, not just a speed machine
- On top of that, a genuine playmaker who can influence/control possession for longer periods (Gomes to return?) and retain it in tight spaces
- Evans can't continue in that role
- Eriksen and Casemiro don't work as a duo in Amorim's preferred system
- Much, much more potency among front three
- Hojland not Rashford to start

As a side not, there were several occasions against Ipswich where our wing-backs, under pressure next to their own box, chipped it to the middle in the vein hope Casemiro or Eriksen would pick it up - we lost the ball each time.
On the front three/four, is it just me or does it seem to anyone that Garnacho, Diallo, Fernandes and Rashford just don't get on, or barely speak to each other off-field?? The communication, camaraderie and awareness/understanding of how they knit together seems completely void?

 

[Ekeke]

If ChaptGPT could summarise all valid points made in this and other threads after the Ipswich game, Amorim would have the blueprint to start from. To (attempt) that, I think the consensus of what we need is:
- Pace, endurance, mobility
- More specifically, a high-octane midfielder who's technically gifted, not just a speed machine
- On top of that, a genuine playmaker who can influence/control possession for longer periods (Gomes to return?) and retain it in tight spaces
- Evans can't continue in that role
- Eriksen and Casemiro don't work as a duo in Amorim's preferred system
- Much, much more potency among front three
- Hojland not Rashford to start

As a side not, there were several occasions against Ipswich where our wing-backs, under pressure next to their own box, chipped it to the middle in the vein hope Casemiro or Eriksen would pick it up - we lost the ball each time.
On the front three/four, is it just me or does it seem to anyone that Garnacho, Diallo, Fernandes and Rashford just don't get on, or barely speak to each other off-field?? The communication, camaraderie and awareness/understanding of how they knit together seems completely void?

Who is fast and technical in CM? Usually its one or the other. Even at top teams

 

[Andrei Kanspellthis]

Who is fast and technical in CM? Usually its one or the other. Even at top teams

Substitute 'fast' for 'power' or 'endurance' then. Albeit using one-off past examples here of CMs with technical ability and power (if not the fastest) - Toure, Robbo, Vieira, Gerrard, Seedorf - not that CMs of this calibre are available to buy. The point being that athleticism and technical ability are not always mutually exclusive

 

[RedIan]

Yoro and shaw returning will add a lot.
We need a striker in Jan. zirkzee is a total flop

 

[clean-sheet-culkin]

Speed, desire, positioning, team play, quality, physicality, attacking the ball, pressure, muscle, belief, great deliveries, attacking headers, appetite, fun, enjoyment, celebration, passion.

Not just from that front three, but also from the defenders and midfielders behind.

Athleticism is one thing, but it's got to be coupled with that fierce competitive attitude of "I am going to beat you, no matter what it takes", the anger (instead of shame, disappointment or tantrum) when you miss a shot or lose out on a tackle, the derision and lack of respect you have for your opponent, and the "fek ye" dopamine dump when you put one away.

Most of our squad are "athletic". But which of them have the mentality, intelligence and quality to get the most out of their body?

I can only think of Onana, Amad and Martinez.

 

[Adnan]

I agree with all you said however I think there's a fourth element that is often ignored ie politics. As you are well aware CM is were often football is won and lost which makes it imperative for managers not to lose the dressing room there. Ironically it started pre SAF with the old fox refusing to add new blood into his ageing CM despite the obvious need. We even lost Pogba because of that.

Moyes came in, he failed to bring in Fabregas and he then opted for Fellaini knowing that his pet would give his 100% for him with Mata coming in January when we were struggling to create chances and goals. LVG signed his own people as well (Blind and Schweinsteiger), the EPL 'proven' (excuse the pun) Schneiderlin and Herrera. He was then followed by Mou who stuck to Fellaini (who gave his all under all managers), brought his man as well (Matic) and promoted McT whom, tbf, bled for him. Mou was then given the flashy big name signing (Pogba), which LVG had with De Maria and Moyes with Mata and he refused to play Fred who seem not to be his signing. Ole stuck with McFred and brought the big name signing Bruno. Then ETH came in with his horde of players who played in the Eredivisie (Mount, Amrabat, Eriksen), the big name signing (Casemiro) and again the player that was brought on him whom he didn't want/didn't play (Ugarte).

It seems to me that there's a pattern there with managers engaging in a sort of thug of war with the club with the former trying to bring their own guys and the club trying to bring the big name/signings they don't want. Both parties seems so consumed in such politics that they couldn't really bring the players we need to bring such balance in midfield. Their lack of football knowledge of how to manage a successful EPL side (only Mou had that and for most of the time he was aided by a top DOF) didn't help either as mistakes were made. I mean Eriksen, Bruno and an ageing Casemiro in CM? Seriously?

The midfield is seriously lacking and has been lacking for about 14 or 15 years. And that's not good enough for a club of Man Utd's stature. It's unacceptable. But in the present day EPL, along with the deeper midfield players you absolutely require top quality CBs as well who tick the boxes as far as pace, power and athleticism is concerned. Mourinho and Solskjaer shot themselves in the foot by spending considerable funds on CBs who just weren't cut out for defending transitions in larger space. The closest they got was Mourinho signing Eric Bailly who at 22 years of age was a very raw player due to him missing several years of football in his youth development days in the Ivory Coast hence him not being fully developed as a young player. And the problem that followed was that after signing multiple defensive players for the backline for considerable amounts of money they attempted to rectify their mistakes in future windows which meant the so called rebuild stagnated and other positions in the team then couldn't be prioritised.

All the top teams have a strong base when it comes to controlling their own deeper half spaces and central space. Strong CBs and deeper mids who together provide a strong foundation for the team to thrive. Players who can play out against a well coordinated press from the first line and defend the transitions as the last line in larger spaces. Controlling these aspects is absolutely crucial and failing to do so will see the team struggling. And if the aforementioned positions are strong with the correct calibre of player, then the potential is there to dominate the game and pin the opponent back in their own half. And when you're able to do that as a team, then chances will come via multiple different players across the team because you've committed a high volume of players in the opponent's half with a powerful rest defense as a fail safe to extinguish the threat on the counter in larger spaces.

For me it's very obvious what needs to be done and if it was upto me then I'd spend the money on a CB and two CMs who fit the criteria which I've mentioned above who collectively raise the physical, athletic and technical quality of both the build up from the back along with being dominant at controlling transitions in isolation.

 

[Nogho]

It’s so sad that Casimero took a nose dive after his first season. The year before he joined us he would have been the perfect player for Amorims system. His body and mind must have checked out at the same time. Sadly his retirement check is payed by us and hinder us from hiring a replacement.

But a strong bully, good with the ball and who could run all day would be ideal. Ugarte should be this on paper, so I put my trust in him and Mainoo. If they click they could be world beaters. The form Mainoo had during the Euros was top notch.

Let put our trust in Amorim who got Ugarte to where he is today.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Shaw, Mount, Yoro and Ugarte will make a dramatic change to this.

 

[Kingslayer18]

I think the problem has been that we have had a strategy but that strategy was flawed as far as playing a more expansive brand of football in the present day EPL. And I think the problem has been the managers post Fergie from Moyes onwards who have signed players without taking into account how it would affect how we defend higher up the pitch in a higher defensive line. And if we start with Moyes, he signed two players in Fellaini and Mata who were both weak when it comes to defending on the front foot and lacked the speed to cover ground quickly. And that set the ball rolling as far as making us into a more conservative team who relied on quick transitions against any half decent team. And even after Moyes, things didn't improve much because, again the pace and power aspect of the team was neglected.

If we as a team want to dominate the game and play higher up the pitch with the high press being the first line of defense and the back-line (CBs) being the last line of defense, where defending near the half way line to squeeze the pitch and suffocate the opposition in their own half. Then we need players in the CB positions and deeper midfield who have the pace, power and technical quality to both progress the ball forward whilst retaining the ball at a good standard along with the ability to contain or control transitions in larger spaces. This team can't do this to a high enough standard and hasn't been able to do it for a number of years because the details are being neglected, especially out of possession. Because as a opposition manager it's very easy to play against us because if you disrupt our build up play from the CBs into midfield, then you've succeeded in throwing the spanner in the works into our system of play which will then effect the rest of the team and we'll resort to playing more direct football.

I would personally prioritise the signings of two midfielders and another CB who elevate our game as far as the missing attributes are concerned. Diomande or Branthwaite at CB with players like Carlos Baleba and Angelo Stiller in midfield who would provide a good blend of physical, athletic and technical quality.


Onana was better than Ugarte physically, athletically and as far as playing the ball forward. But we've ended up signing Ugarte and eventhough I'm not a big fan of him, I think if we brought in a Carlos Baleba along with someone like Angelo Stiller it wouldn't look too bad to have Ugarte in the squad.

Is Stiller athletic enough for what we need? I know he has a great passing range but I'm not sure he has the engine for the B2B role Amorim would want. It seems we're linked with Ederson from Atalanta again, how do you rate him compared to Baleba? Brighton are likely to ask for a huge fee for him, so we need to be smart in how we go about spending in that position. A player like Hugo Larsson would also be good in that B2B role.

 

[Woziak]

We’re screwed with FFP and can’t recruit in January. We’ll get one player on loan at best.

In reality the whole transfer window for this season is from the summer of 24 through to the Winter of 25 is based on the club financial revenues for the season 23/24 in EPL and from January 1st 2024 to December 31st 2024 for European Football where a maximum of 80% of revenue can be spent on Agent Fees, Net Transfer costs and owed transfer fees.

The EPL is transitioning to a 70-85% model from 2025/26 season with much more leeway allowed next season as new measures are still to be agreed on by the 20 clubs.

We sold an awful lot of homegrown talent this summer ; A Fernandez(6m),
M Greenwood(23m),
S McTominay(27m), DVB(0.5m),
F Pellistri(4m), Hannibal(7m),
W Kambwala(7m), M Oyedele(0.5m), AWB (15m) and Sancho £2m loan plus £23m obligation to buy. Total £90-95m plus £23 to come in summer.
We actually spent €214m and recouped €103m which is a net spend of €111m(£93m) plus Agent Fees.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/transfers/verein/985

We are told every window the clubs got no money , maybe £50m sometimes £100m to spend like last summer then we spent £180m in the summer.

It’s much more about cash and terms, the club could have spent £300-350m in the summer without FFP issues, next season will be different and the budget may increase due to new FFP/PSR/SCR rules or could decrease to as low as £50m if our revenue significantly decreases and if we show a loss of more than £135m over a three year period in this years accounts which is the new rumoured threshold to be agree by the EPL.

Man United potentially could even be given a transfer ban for the summer transfer window, which may make us far more aggressive in this season’s winters transfer Window.

We should be ok to spend maybe £75m plus what we sell in January and £125-150m in the summer because of how well we sold academy players in the summer. The Home Grown players represents 100% profit so maybe £55-60m will be shown as 100% profit against last summers new incoming player investments on the accounts and the bet position will look far more favourable than many ‘so called experts’ would have you believe?

It’s far more important to remember that we had no cash available last January for even a loan deal however part of SJR acquisition of 27.7% included $300m capital investment in two stages, the first of $200(£151m) was paid in May 2024 and the second of $100m(£75m) is due to be paid in December 2024.

This cash was needed to assist with transfers, infrastructure and £50m was put aside for Carrington refurbishment, having no affect on PSR/FFP. It was also important to remember how many deals we tried to do on 2 and 3 and even 4 year payment terms in the summer to help the club with cash liquidity.

Let’s assume we paid 15% in Agent fees Which is about €32m and this would have had to be up front in the summer as agent fees are always paid up front.

Maybe we agreed mostly 3 year payment terms for our new players that’s €214m divided by 3 that’s another €72m which may have been paid in this Sumner, so maybe €105m would have been spent so far which is £88m added to the €60m(£50m) for Carrington and you have a total for most of the £151m which was invested in May 2024.

If you then add the €12.5m(£10m) we had to pay Sporting Lisbon to buy Ruben Amorim out of his contract then it’s fair to say that right now that maybe €177-180m may have been spent which converts into £148-150m.

Of course I have no actual numbers but this is my best guess having looked at our financials recently, I may be wide off the mark but I just don’t believe the fake media when it says United have no money to spend on new players.

I would also suggest that this means they have carefully thought out the financials with the new CFO, Roger Bell who incidentally was appointed in May 2024 to oversee the numbers, maybe therefore we might just have £50-60m set aside in January to facilitate transfer of new players plus what we sell.

We sold over £90m in the summer and I’ve not accounted for how much of that was also paid in instalments and how much was paid upfront in the summer, we just don’t know how much of that £90m has been paid to Man United PLC.

It might be £20m it might be £40m and this would be additional cash that can help Ashworth and Berrada to make one, maybe two marquee signings as early January 2025.

We also had to pay ETH and his coaches off but that will show in the accounts for he next two years and again potentially have an impact on next seasons transfer policy, it will mean that if we do sign one or two players in January, wages will be problem, there is no way there offering £25m to Bayern for Alphonso Davies with 6 months left on his contract and then £12m per year in wages?

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Dalot is a great example of what's needed, as is Ugarte. It's not just physicality, but mentality as well.

Amad has the heart of a lion, and runs like feck, he's also quite good at shielding the ball for a man his size. Same can be said for Martinez.

Rasmus needs to be a bit meaner and dirtier, he gets bullied quite a lot.

Rashford is the one player I REALLY want to see do well. He's one of our one, born and bred. However, his attitude changes like the wind. Not even game by game, but minute by minute.

Bruno is fine, he's fitter than anyone, same with Mazz.

Agree, but his lack of fight and physicality was sure on display vs Ipswhich, even with it being the 1st match under the new boss. He did not win a ball. I doubt he starts again any time soon, at least I hope. I root hard for him, it's such a bummer.

 

[Irwin99]

That stat might be misleading though. We had to run a lot previously because ETH set us up to play an open basketball like game. So players were constantly running up and down like headless chickens. With a proper, tighter structure, you would see players having to run less to cover ground because they are closer to their teammates and there is lesser space.

The weird thing is, we heard so much about EtH’s intense training and focus on fitness but I didn’t really see much of that on the pitch when he was here. I should imagine the stats back it up that we never ran that much or were top of the league for that stat.

I think on Sunday we had a lot of possession in the second half so it does mean we ran less but it’s true that we don’t seem a very dynamic team or have the players to play that way. Terrible squad building really.

 

[Maticmaker]

I'm of the opinion we still have a hangover from past cultural influences within the club that led to less than desirable traits, rather than it being purely physical. Laziness, lack of professionalism, poor work ethic, entitlement. Rashford epitomises it.

Spot on with this!
Players have been getting away with issues, for the most part issues that are peculiar to themselves, e.g. non/lack of defensive contributions from Rashford and in some case Garnacho. However, all over the pitch this happens time and again, so does; ball watching, misunderstandings of individuals passing games, wanting ball to feet, looking down at the ball instead of up at whats happening (usually inability to control) Mainoo/Bruno the only exceptions.
The end result is the slowing down (all over the pitch) of team movements, failure to turn defenders quick enough, or in the right positions. Some close quarter, first time passing has appeared, occasionally on the edge of the box, but very limited inside the box.

These are a lot of the 'less than desirable traits' that seem to persist, who ever is managing. A sign of how successful (or not) Amorin can be, will be how quickly, or if at all, he can put such matters right.

 

[Adnan]

Is Stiller athletic enough for what we need? I know he has a great passing range but I'm not sure he has the engine for the B2B role Amorim would want. It seems we're linked with Ederson from Atalanta again, how do you rate him compared to Baleba? Brighton are likely to ask for a huge fee for him, so we need to be smart in how we go about spending in that position. A player like Hugo Larsson would also be good in that B2B role.

I think we need a good variety in midfield and having a more specialised ball player in there along with say a Carlos Baleba would bring about more balance. Currently we only have Mainoo as that specialist ball player as the longterm option and we should target at least one more player of a similar ilk. And if you have a prospective backline and midfield that consists of Leny Yoro, Ousmane Diomande/Branthwaite etc along with a Carlos Baleba in midfield, it should be more than enough to control the game out of possession when the spaces open up. Because currently this team doesn't have the capability in midfield to keep things compact in a higher defensive line and it remains to be seen how much Leny Yoro will improve things upon his return as one of the 3 CBs. So it's important to create a strong foundation at the back and in midfield with at least 3 players who have the capability to control or contain transitions. And when you can consistently do that, it will allow the technically gifted players to thrive.

But having said that, I'm not completely sold on Stiller, but he's one of a number of options I think we should target because it's important to have a more specialised ball player in midfield to provide that craft and guile along with the pace and power to extinguish the threat against the counter attack. And you're correct Baleba won't be cheap to get, but I'm sure there's other options that we can also target.

I haven't seen Ederson or Hugo Larsson play in live games. I've watched Ederson's YouTube compilations and from watching those he looks the combative box to box type with good physical and athletic traits whilst being decent on the ball.

 

[NZT-One]

The midfield is seriously lacking and has been lacking for about 14 or 15 years. And that's not good enough for a club of Man Utd's stature. It's unacceptable. But in the present day EPL, along with the deeper midfield players you absolutely require top quality CBs as well who tick the boxes as far as pace, power and athleticism is concerned. Mourinho and Solskjaer shot themselves in the foot by spending considerable funds on CBs who just weren't cut out for defending transitions in larger space. The closest they got was Mourinho signing Eric Bailly who at 22 years of age was a very raw player due to him missing several years of football in his youth development days in the Ivory Coast hence him not being fully developed as a young player. And the problem that followed was that after signing multiple defensive players for the backline for considerable amounts of money they attempted to rectify their mistakes in future windows which meant the so called rebuild stagnated and other positions in the team then couldn't be prioritised.

All the top teams have a strong base when it comes to controlling their own deeper half spaces and central space. Strong CBs and deeper mids who together provide a strong foundation for the team to thrive. Players who can play out against a well coordinated press from the first line and defend the transitions as the last line in larger spaces. Controlling these aspects is absolutely crucial and failing to do so will see the team struggling. And if the aforementioned positions are strong with the correct calibre of player, then the potential is there to dominate the game and pin the opponent back in their own half. And when you're able to do that as a team, then chances will come via multiple different players across the team because you've committed a high volume of players in the opponent's half with a powerful rest defense as a fail safe to extinguish the threat on the counter in larger spaces.

For me it's very obvious what needs to be done and if it was upto me then I'd spend the money on a CB and two CMs who fit the criteria which I've mentioned above who collectively raise the physical, athletic and technical quality of both the build up from the back along with being dominant at controlling transitions in isolation.

I see your points and I think it is safe to say, that I vowed for real midfield reinforcements as long as I can think of. I would agree your take but given that Amorim is in control right now, I think, we have to make sure to bring in at least one capable wingback. Either left or right, preferably left imo. The players we have there aren't good fits given that they either don't have the lungs and intensity for the role or not the required attacking abilities. Those positions are crucial for the rest of the system to come to fruition and while I agree we have to bring in CMs and probably another CB - I really think the wingback is more important than the CB for now. Mazraoui and Shaw can fill in there, Casemiro could as well. Everything not optimal, no question about it, but I think not worse than having defensive fullbacks who on good days are cruising but certainly not busting a gut in wingback position.

I think, we should try to create some cash via player sales to make sure the team becomes competitive. There are obvious candidates, I'd honestly also look into selling Martinez. From my understanding of the 3-4-3 I don't see him having a good profile for that, given that he isn't fast and is small. I see him being able to step into CM but again, from my understanding, that would be the responsibility of the CB in the middle and I think, that spot is saved for De Ligt. Where do you stand on Martinez? (He is actually an interesting side quest for a thread like this. Because he certainly has the right mentality and he isn't weak yet he's still part of the problem (in my eyes at least). I am also concerned about seeing Shaws name in here so often with the "wait till he is back"... I think, he has been way too comfortable around our team in the last years, he certainly shouldn't be part of new era).

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I see your points and I think it is safe to say, that I vowed for real midfield reinforcements as long as I can think of. I would agree your take but given that Amorim is in control right now, I think, we have to make sure to bring in at least one capable wingback. Either left or right, preferably left imo. The players we have there aren't good fits given that they either don't have the lungs and intensity for the role or not the required attacking abilities. Those positions are crucial for the rest of the system to come to fruition and while I agree we have to bring in CMs and probably another CB - I really think the wingback is more important than the CB for now. Mazraoui and Shaw can fill in there, Casemiro could as well. Everything not optimal, no question about it, but I think not worse than having defensive fullbacks who on good days are cruising but certainly not busting a gut in wingback position.

I think, we should try to create some cash via player sales to make sure the team becomes competitive. There are obvious candidates, I'd honestly also look into selling Martinez. From my understanding of the 3-4-3 I don't see him having a good profile for that, given that he isn't fast and is small. I see him being able to step into CM but again, from my understanding, that would be the responsibility of the CB in the middle and I think, that spot is saved for De Ligt. Where do you stand on Martinez? (He is actually an interesting side quest for a thread like this. Because he certainly has the right mentality and he isn't weak yet he's still part of the problem (in my eyes at least). I am also concerned about seeing Shaws name in here so often with the "wait till he is back"... I think, he has been way too comfortable around our team in the last years, he certainly shouldn't be part of new era).

I think one of the smarter things we could do as a club is be shrewd in player sales going forward. Martinez is a good example as someone that I don't think really fits us now but still has a great reputation in football for us to get good value from. Rashford is probably past that point and needed to be sold last summer if anything. Even Garnacho would be a decent shout if a club came along willing to pay huge money for him.

In general we've been awful at capitalizing on a player's value to sell them. We instead wait until they play like shit for a couple of seasons before selling them for pennies generally instead, while smarter clubs are willing to sell off players the second they realize he won't be useful in the future (Chelsea does it well, Bayern have typically done it well, City just last season with Alvarez)

 

[Lentwood]

Might see him have to fast-track the likes of Kone, Amass, etc.. to get the desired effect since we're unlikely to be able to afford transfers until the summer.

Normally it annoys me when people suggest throwing in young players because they massively underestimate the step-up in quality but at this point, I'd rather see players who have legs and energy and can be developed than players we know lack the basic tools to be a success.

Collyer is a good example...not good enough for us but I'd rather see him running about than Eriksen, who's a much better player but lacks energy and will be leaving in the Summer anyway.

 

[Adnan]

I see your points and I think it is safe to say, that I vowed for real midfield reinforcements as long as I can think of. I would agree your take but given that Amorim is in control right now, I think, we have to make sure to bring in at least one capable wingback. Either left or right, preferably left imo. The players we have there aren't good fits given that they either don't have the lungs and intensity for the role or not the required attacking abilities. Those positions are crucial for the rest of the system to come to fruition and while I agree we have to bring in CMs and probably another CB - I really think the wingback is more important than the CB for now. Mazraoui and Shaw can fill in there, Casemiro could as well. Everything not optimal, no question about it, but I think not worse than having defensive fullbacks who on good days are cruising but certainly not busting a gut in wingback position.

I think, we should try to create some cash via player sales to make sure the team becomes competitive. There are obvious candidates, I'd honestly also look into selling Martinez. From my understanding of the 3-4-3 I don't see him having a good profile for that, given that he isn't fast and is small. I see him being able to step into CM but again, from my understanding, that would be the responsibility of the CB in the middle and I think, that spot is saved for De Ligt. Where do you stand on Martinez? (He is actually an interesting side quest for a thread like this. Because he certainly has the right mentality and he isn't weak yet he's still part of the problem (in my eyes at least). I am also concerned about seeing Shaws name in here so often with the "wait till he is back"... I think, he has been way too comfortable around our team in the last years, he certainly shouldn't be part of new era).

I think you're right and the wing back role is quite important for the way Amorim wants to setup. So for me the wingback signing would be of a higher priority than signing a CB. But I do believe a a CB signing with the requisite attributes could have a bigger impact on the team in the mid to long-term as opposed to signing a wing-back, but it's about the here and now with Ruben Amorim and getting the correct components in place quickly is what has to happen because as we all know you don't get the mid to long-term stability if you aren't winning games and finishing in the top 4.

With Martinez I think he is our most technically capable CB who would fit in as the LCB in the formation Amorim wants to utilise. Because if you look at Amorim's SCP team, it's very clear his wide CBs provided ball progression at a very high level for the system to click. Those big long diagonals from the wide CB positions for the wingbacks to run onto, aided the system of play to click at a good level. And Goncalo Inacio was the LCB at SCP under Amorim and I wouldn't say he was physically and athletically the most impressive but technically he was outstanding. So I think it's important to understand the system of play and not get too hung up on the formation, which is basically your team shape in the build up phase but the system of play is something that is judged on how effectively you as a team progress the play from back to front and then how you defend from front to back without the ball.

And as far as the physical and athletic requirements go for someone like Martinez, then it depends on who your midfield anchor is in the team because you can then comfortably double up on opposition attackers. We don't have that player in the team at the moment and that player needs to be bought imo.

I agree with you on Luke Shaw, I think as good of a player he can be when fit, he just isn't reliable and has missed way too many games. So moving him on come the summer transfer window would actually be a sensible move. And i'd move Rashford on as well because I just don't see how any player who doesn't apply himself out of possession can work in any system that places heavy emphasis on winning the ball back out of possession with a high work rate in coordination with your team mates. I don't think it's difficult to generate enough cash but whether they will go ahead and sell the players I believe need to be sold is what i'm interested in finding out. But with Rashford he could easily hit a purple patch of form where we string a number of results together and all is forgotten and then come next season we're complaining about the same things.

 

[Overhaul FC]

Sign durable athletes with speed and acceleration and we'll become more athletic. I think we're getting better but we're still not where we need to be.

Yoro is athletic but durability in his history is in question. Martinez and De Ligt are limited in terms of speed and acceleration.

Shaw's finished. Dalot rarely looks in top body composition.

Amad is short but strong and in shape, Mainoo isn't the biggest for a CM and has stamina issues yet. Garnacho has perhaps the highest ceiling physically, he has the lungs and legs, but needs finesse in his game and decision making which can be worked on.

Genetics can't be worked on, they can only try and maximise a players gifts/abilities.

We need to sign genetic freaks. Rio, Valencia pre injury, Pogba, Nani, Rooney and Ronaldo. Then work on their games. But you can't add athleticism after you've signed a player. It should be a prerequisite to any signing, in any position.

 

[NZT-One]

I think one of the smarter things we could do as a club is be shrewd in player sales going forward. Martinez is a good example as someone that I don't think really fits us now but still has a great reputation in football for us to get good value from. Rashford is probably past that point and needed to be sold last summer if anything. Even Garnacho would be a decent shout if a club came along willing to pay huge money for him.

In general we've been awful at capitalizing on a player's value to sell them. We instead wait until they play like shit for a couple of seasons before selling them for pennies generally instead, while smarter clubs are willing to sell off players the second they realize he won't be useful in the future (Chelsea does it well, Bayern have typically done it well, City just last season with Alvarez)

I'd definitely be on board with that. I guess the club as a whole (it certainly is visible in the fanbase) is desperate to cling on some sort of world class status, even if it is the academy, the higher up personal or history. I think, this makes the club desperate to stick to players who have some sort of star-power going on. The old saying no player is bigger than the club, I think we have seen how that principle suffered. Hopefully, we'll be able to get this corrected soon.

Normally it annoys me when people suggest throwing in young players because they massively underestimate the step-up in quality but at this point, I'd rather see players who have legs and energy and can be developed than players we know lack the basic tools to be a success.

Collyer is a good example...not good enough for us but I'd rather see him running about than Eriksen, who's a much better player but lacks energy and will be leaving in the Summer anyway.

Totally agree.

I think you're right and the wing back role is quite important for the way Amorim wants to setup. So for me the wingback signing would be of a higher priority than signing a CB. But I do believe a a CB signing with the requisite attributes could have a bigger impact on the team in the mid to long-term as opposed to signing a wing-back, but it's about the here and now with Ruben Amorim and getting the correct components in place quickly is what has to happen because as we all know you don't get the mid to long-term stability if you aren't winning games and finishing in the top 4.

With Martinez I think he is our most technically capable CB who would fit in as the LCB in the formation Amorim wants to utilise. Because if you look at Amorim's SCP team, it's very clear his wide CBs provided ball progression at a very high level for the system to click. Those big long diagonals from the wide CB positions for the wingbacks to run onto, aided the system of play to click at a good level. And Goncalo Inacio was the LCB at SCP under Amorim and I wouldn't say he was physically and athletically the most impressive but technically he was outstanding. So I think it's important to understand the system of play and not get too hung up on the formation, which is basically your team shape in the build up phase but the system of play is something that is judged on how effectively you as a team progress the play from back to front and then how you defend from front to back without the ball.

And as far as the physical and athletic requirements go for someone like Martinez, then it depends on who your midfield anchor is in the team because you can then comfortably double up on opposition attackers. We don't have that player in the team at the moment and that player needs to be bought imo.

Yeah that makes sense. I knew that the CBs in Sporting aren't physical freaks but I don't know much about the details for each one of them. I mostly worried about Martinez height defending balls in behind but I am aware thats definitely just one aspect to keep an eye on. I think, the ones you described will outweigh that aspect but I guess, you are right, it makes the search for the midfield positions a little more specific.

I agree with you on Luke Shaw, I think as good of a player he can be when fit, he just isn't reliable and has missed way too many games. So moving him on come the summer transfer window would actually be a sensible move. And i'd move Rashford on as well because I just don't see how any player who doesn't apply himself out of possession can work in any system that places heavy emphasis on winning the ball back out of possession with a high work rate in coordination with your team mates. I don't think it's difficult to generate enough cash but whether they will go ahead and sell the players I believe need to be sold is what i'm interested in finding out. But with Rashford he could easily hit a purple patch of form where we string a number of results together and all is forgotten and then come next season we're complaining about the same things.

Yes good point. I honestly think, at this point it would even be for the best for Rashford as a guy as well. Don't know what it is, mental health, burning out, some weird fear of getting injured - he always seems "restricted", not there 100%. I am sure, his life also has his specific challenges and he certainly has been in the spotlight since forever. So maybe it would be good for a reset. It could be tricky for the club to sell PR-wise but something has to happen.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Normally it annoys me when people suggest throwing in young players because they massively underestimate the step-up in quality but at this point, I'd rather see players who have legs and energy and can be developed than players we know lack the basic tools to be a success.

Collyer is a good example...not good enough for us but I'd rather see him running about than Eriksen, who's a much better player but lacks energy and will be leaving in the Summer anyway.

Yes, totally agree. Casemiro and Eriksen vs Ipswhich was a great example. I don't blame Amorim, he was working off the couple days he had with the players, but that lineup will never work in the Prem.

 

[Hammondo]

Substitute 'fast' for 'power' or 'endurance' then. Albeit using one-off past examples here of CMs with technical ability and power (if not the fastest) - Toure, Robbo, Vieira, Gerrard, Seedorf - not that CMs of this calibre are available to buy. The point being that athleticism and technical ability are not always mutually exclusive

You would consider all those midfielders technical?

 

[imonkmc]

Watching villa vs juve, the amount of constant pressing and running gives an idea of fitness compared to our players

 

[Andrei Kanspellthis]

You would consider all those midfielders technical?

Gifted with technical ability in terms of first touch, control, ability to retain close control of the ball in fast-paced games/while running with the ball. You don't think all those players had technical ability?

 

[Hammondo]

Gifted with technical ability in terms of first touch, control, ability to retain close control of the ball in fast-paced games/while running with the ball. You don't think all those players had technical ability?

Not stand out, not all of them. Some struggled with a fast paced game.

 

[romufc]

Yes, totally agree. Casemiro and Eriksen vs Ipswhich was a great example. I don't blame Amorim, he was working off the couple days he had with the players, but that lineup will never work in the Prem.

The thing is... we saw it under Ten Hag and he consistently used that pairing of Casemiro Eriksen and it never worked. I was really surprised that Amorim came in and spoke about intensity and athleticism and started them in midfield.

Hopefully he learns his lesson and those 2 don't start.