Television The Last Dance (ESPN) | 97-98 Bulls and MJ

Buchan

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Another superb pair of episodes.

This documentary is absolutely fantastic and already in the discussion for best of the sporting genre that we have ever seen.
 

RobinLFC

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Another superb pair of episodes.

This documentary is absolutely fantastic and already in the discussion for best of the sporting genre that we have ever seen.
From an entertaining point of view I couldn't agree more.

It's flawed from an accuracy point of view though and too much of the narrative is driven by Jordan's personal agenda imo, which immediately caps it potential for an all-time great docu for me. For starters I can't figure out why he'd straight out lie about the Isiah Thomas stuff after he'd already admitted that he did in fact keep him off the team.
 

Buchan

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I completely forgot he came back late in the season and then lost to the Magic. I thought he was 6-for-6 in the playoffs once they got started on the first three-peat.
I also had no clue about the ‘Jordan 45’ shirt either. Unbelievable drama even now watching the whole retirement/return episode play out almost thirty years later. It must have been simply extraordinary at the time. I cannot even think of a sporting story in the last ten years to rival it to be honest.
 

crappycraperson

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Fergie had similarly high standards and a similarly vicious temper but he was never a bully. Just look at their legacies: everyone, including the victim of the shoe kicking incident, agree that Ferguson was a nice guy. In contrast, everyone unanimously acknowledges that Michael Jordan was a prick.

Obviously greatness requires an edge and big ego. But you can still have all of that and be a decent human being.
I am sure if you asked some BBC reporters they won't agree with your assertion that Fergie was not a bully. Also Beckham being fine with Fergie injuring him is no different to Kerr being ok with being punched and even saying his relationship with Jordan improved as a result.
 

Buchan

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From an entertaining point of view I couldn't agree more.

It's flawed from an accuracy point of view though and too much of the narrative is driven by Jordan's personal agenda imo, which immediately caps it potential for an all-time great docu for me. For starters I can't figure out why he'd straight out lie about the Isiah Thomas stuff after he'd already admitted that he did in fact keep him off the team.
To be fair, other contributors to the show acknowledged that Thomas had cantankerous relationships with Bird and Johnson, in addition to Jordan. I doubt very much they wanted him on the ‘Dream Team’ either. It’s quite unfair to pin the whole thing on Jordan, even if he may have been the most vocal opponent behind the scenes at Thomas’ exclusion.
 

Jim Beam

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Obviously greatness requires an edge and big ego. But you can still have all of that and be a decent human being.
He didn't dump a body into the river or beat his wife. He was tough and extremely hard with his teammates crossing the line sometimes. On a basketball court.

Think he can live with that.
 
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arnie_ni

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So ive put my foot in it.

Apparently the wife wanted to watch this and im not 5 episodes in.

Who knew she liker sport let alone basketball and Jordan.

Wonder what else i don't know about her?
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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A great docu-series.

The man says himself, he didn’t ask anyone to do things he didn’t/couldn’t do.

Will Purdue gave the fairest of reviews; he wasn’t a nice guy but he was a great teammate.

He didn’t want to be an activist or politician, he simply wanted to master the game & he did.
 
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VP

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I am sure if you asked some BBC reporters they won't agree with your assertion that Fergie was not a bully. Also Beckham being fine with Fergie injuring him is no different to Kerr being ok with being punched and even saying his relationship with Jordan improved as a result.
Relationship with media is always antagonistic - I'm talking more about treatment of teammates. doesn't Kerr still say MJ treated his teammates badly? I've yet to hear anyone criticize Fergie for that.

He didn't dump a body into the river or beat his wife. He was tough and extremely hard with his teammates crossing the line sometimes. On a basketball court.

Think he can live with that.
Considering he was in tears when recalling that part.. I'm not so sure.

My biggest issue with people defending this behaviour is that it not just normalises bullying but implies it's actually good leadership (e.g people believing Trump is a good leader). MJ was amazing because of his talent and drive not because he was a prick to his teammates.
 

edcunited1878

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Relationship with media is always antagonistic - I'm talking more about treatment of teammates. doesn't Kerr still say MJ treated his teammates badly? I've yet to hear anyone criticize Fergie for that.


Considering he was in tears when recalling that part.. I'm not so sure.

My biggest issue with people defending this behaviour is that it not just normalises bullying but implies it's actually good leadership (e.g people believing Trump is a good leader). MJ was amazing because of his talent and drive not because he was a prick to his teammates.
If Jordan wasn't a good leader or didn't treat his teammates with enough respect or challenge them to be better, then Phil Jackson, of all people, would have told him that and made him conform his ways. Over time, life experiences, and being removed from your hyper competitive bubble, you obviously see things with different perspective. However, you're rarely able to gain that perspective and reflect on it hard enough when you're still living in that bubble, let alone being that bubble that is Michael Jordan, the most recognized person and athlete all at once in his day. While you don't actively justify or defend things MJ did, do try to empathize as best as you can where it's coming from.
 

Jim Beam

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Considering he was in tears when recalling that part.. I'm not so sure.

My biggest issue with people defending this behaviour is that it not just normalises bullying but implies it's actually good leadership (e.g people believing Trump is a good leader). MJ was amazing because of his talent and drive not because he was a prick to his teammates.
I didn't defend it, I actually think it is not the right approach or something others should follow as something inspirational. I also think in terms of leadership he was nowhere near Fergie for example. Tbf, when it comes to leadership there isn't no one close to Fergie. He approached every individual differently while managing the whole team. Jordan knew only one way.

But, there has to be a middle ground here and a bit of perspective. Was he a bit of a prick and often crossed the line? Yes.
Did he made his teammates better? Absolutely. Would they trade all those years and play for someone else? Pretty sure they wouldn't.
 

RobinLFC

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I didn't defend it, I actually think it is not the right approach or something others should follow as something inspirational. I also think in terms of leadership he was nowhere near Fergie for example. Tbf, when it comes to leadership there isn't no one close to Fergie. He approached every individual differently while managing the whole team. Jordan knew only one way.

But, there has to be a middle ground here and a bit of perspective. Was he a bit of a prick and often crossed the line? Yes.
Did he made his teammates better? Absolutely. Would they trade all those years and play for someone else? Pretty sure they wouldn't.
By being the greatest basketball player to ever live did he make his teammates look better. Did he actively make his teammates actually better basketball players, going about it the way that he did? Debatable. Were there other (and better, some might say) ways to achieve that? Definitely.

I'm sure they didn't and don't care though, since he got them multiple rings that they otherwise wouldn't have won without him. But that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a prick to some of them.
 

Jim Beam

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By being the greatest basketball player to ever live did he make his teammates look better. Did he actively make his teammates actually better basketball players, going about it the way that he did? Debatable.
It really isn't imo. You can't be a leader of one of the greatest basketball teams ever (which were an absolute garbage when you came) without being a massive and influential part of that same collective. They will follow or won't, simple as that.
Even if you want to put their transformation mostly to Phil Jackson and his triangle offence it still takes for your leader being able to compromise it's game. And much lesser starts couldn't do it, ask Camelo Anthony.

Not even going into his impact on their mentality, defence, consistency, Pippen and Rodman career.

I do agree there were other ways to do it though.
 

Cassidy

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By being the greatest basketball player to ever live did he make his teammates look better. Did he actively make his teammates actually better basketball players, going about it the way that he did? Debatable. Were there other (and better, some might say) ways to achieve that? Definitely.

I'm sure they didn't and don't care though, since he got them multiple rings that they otherwise wouldn't have won without him. But that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a prick to some of them.
He was influential in Pippens elevation after Bulls lost to the Pistons, Pippen said so himself specifically the mental side of the game
 

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Ah, they’re throwing cold water on my pet ‘conspiracy theory’ that in the “flu game” he didn’t have the flu, but was actually hungover. They’re claiming it was food poisoning, which at least is much more plausible than the flu.
 

mariachi-19

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Michael has the ultimate "lead from the front mentality". You cant say thats not leadership and when you look at the comments from his team mates which pretty much backed up the idea that he drove them to titles, its really undisputed. Leadership comes in different forms and that leadership can be entirely different from a playing perspective to a management perspective.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/n...n-his-team-and-michael-jordans-chicago-bulls/

I don't know if they've ever met, but I would love to be in a room with Michael Jordan and Sir Alex Ferguson present.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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My biggest issue with people defending this behaviour is that it not just normalises bullying but implies it's actually good leadership (e.g people believing Trump is a good leader). MJ was amazing because of his talent and drive not because he was a prick to his teammates.
That Bulls team doesn’t go past The Pistons without adding steel to their talent. Kind words don’t add that.

There’s also no way Jordan stars in that team if he was all stick and no carrot. I’m sure he was a prick. I’m sure he bullied. But it’s clear as day that he would support his people, and help others realise their talent.

Drawing a line between Jordan and Trump is nuts too.
 

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This has me craving for playoff basketball now, it can't start up soon enough. Will be weird and probably less intense without fans in attendance though.
 

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This has been great so far. I have a mild interest in NBA but i had no idea how driven the guy was.

The world knew about Jordan and that Bulls team in a way that no other basketball team, or any American sports team, has ever come close to. Pretty amazing really.
 

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Just finished the last two episodes. Thoroughly enjoyed and wish there was more to come.

I was never that interested in basketball, always found the almost inevitable back and forth and really high scoring a little silly,without looking too much into it. But this doc has made me realise that it is unlike any other sport for late drama as games can be won with even the smallest amount of time on the clock, and I imagine seeing something like that live would be very exciting.

Been surprised by Jordan's charisma given how wooden he was in Space Jam. Understand acting is a completely different thing but always thought he was an awkward-in-front-of-the-camera kinda guy.
 

adexkola

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That Bulls team doesn’t go past The Pistons without adding steel to their talent. Kind words don’t add that.

There’s also no way Jordan stars in that team if he was all stick and no carrot. I’m sure he was a prick. I’m sure he bullied. But it’s clear as day that he would support his people, and help others realise their talent.

Drawing a line between Jordan and Trump is nuts too.
I think there's a trend going around of giving Jordan's assholeness too much credit for the Bulls success. I'm sure it was a factor, but number 1 was his dedication and talent to the game put him above everyone else.

Someone made a good point that his behavior was actually detrimental during his tenure on the Wizards. Surely he was smart enough to see that Kwame Brown probably didnt need epithets hurled at him, but an arm around the shoulder?

Which is why I'm not sure SAF and Jordan can or should be mentioned in the same sentence, apart from being serial winners. Players speak of the former as a father figure (Keane aside). Even Pippen doesn't speak glowingly of Jordan, post basketball. That says something.
 

edcunited1878

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Not glib. Hes not interesting or compelling or sympathetic. Hes just really good at basketball. And once he stops playing there's not much left to care about.
Not interesting or compelling, yet millions of people from generations future never watched him play or only know him from Space Jam or his shoes have tuned in on this...
 

edcunited1878

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I don't know what point you are trying to make. That you find him interesting and I don't? Okay congrats dude.
The point is you're in the minority, which is fine, however millions of people find Jordan, the team he was part of and his teammates interesting and compelling subjects
 

Norris

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Finished it. Amazing. Unreal just good he was. Enjoyed this from start to finish. Now, I am actually tempted to go back and start following Basketball more closely again.
 

GDaly95

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Can anyone summarize what MJ has been up to since?

You surely can't go from being such a driven, obsessive winner to having a chilled out retirement kicking back. It just can't be in his nature.

I see he owns a couple teams, is he all about business?

He must be trying to be the best at something else.
 

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Can anyone summarize what MJ has been up to since?

You surely can't go from being such a driven, obsessive winner to having a chilled out retirement kicking back. It just can't be in his nature.

I see he owns a couple teams, is he all about business?

He must be trying to be the best at something else.
Exchanging millions of dollars betting on himself in rounds of high-stakes golf most likely.
 

Melbourne Red

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I think there's a trend going around of giving Jordan's assholeness too much credit for the Bulls success. I'm sure it was a factor, but number 1 was his dedication and talent to the game put him above everyone else.

Someone made a good point that his behavior was actually detrimental during his tenure on the Wizards. Surely he was smart enough to see that Kwame Brown probably didnt need epithets hurled at him, but an arm around the shoulder?

Which is why I'm not sure SAF and Jordan can or should be mentioned in the same sentence, apart from being serial winners. Players speak of the former as a father figure (Keane aside). Even Pippen doesn't speak glowingly of Jordan, post basketball. That says something.
This, exactly.

Bludgeoning others into doing better will probably work to a great extent in a results-driven industry like sport, but we should probably reserve the pedestal for outstanding leadership for people who can actually communicate effectively and understand other people. I suspect if the likes of Jordan and Bryant had a better command of those and other interpersonal skills, they might have managed to elevate their teams to success without having to resort to unrelenting cuntery as a device.
 
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