Television The Last Dance (ESPN) | 97-98 Bulls and MJ

onemanarmy

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Very good show. I haven't been following the NBA for years now, I could probably name only 5 players, but those days I was completely hooked. I watched it constantly on tv, those Bulls years and after that the O'Neal, Hardaway period at Orlando were great.

All those legends, fantastic to see them again.
 

Adam-Utd

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This, exactly.

Bludgeoning others into doing better will probably work to a great in a results-driven industry like sport, but we should probably reserve the pedestal for outstanding leadership for people who can actually communicate effectively and understand other people. I suspect if the likes of Jordan and Bryant had a better command of those and other interpersonal skills, they might have managed to elevate their teams to success without having to resort to unrelenting cuntery as a device.
It's 1 of those things that only the very best can get away with.

If they're carrying you to the top then you're happy to put up with it and ride the coattails, but if somebody shite was having a pop at you non stop you'd have the hump pretty quick :lol:
 

Sky1981

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People think jordan is a bully?

Some of you lot are naive if you think he can get there commanding respect and adulations of his team and the world withour being a bad ass motherfecker.

Jordan was a very demanding and hard to please teammate and leader, but he lead by examples on the pitch. Nobody can deny his influence on the team. The fact that he's there bollocking you if you're not playing well is a testament of a great leader.

He was something else in his prime, good luck trying to be lowkey with that kind of spotlight on you.
 

RobinLFC

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People think jordan is a bully?

Some of you lot are naive if you think he can get there commanding respect and adulations of his team and the world withour being a bad ass motherfecker.

Jordan was a very demanding and hard to please teammate and leader, but he lead by examples on the pitch. Nobody can deny his influence on the team. The fact that he's there bollocking you if you're not playing well is a testament of a great leader.

He was something else in his prime, good luck trying to be lowkey with that kind of spotlight on you.
Proper bullshit. Tim Duncan had 200% command and adulation of his teammates without "being a bad ass motherfecker". Countless others did and do.
 

DVG7

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Proper bullshit. Tim Duncan had 200% command and adulation of his teammates without "being a bad ass motherfecker". Countless others did and do.
yeah bit Tim Duncan isn’t a billionaire and in the conversation for top 3 athletes of all time. Maybe if he had Jordan’s mentality and personality, it would be Duncan donuts.
 

RobinLFC

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yeah bit Tim Duncan isn’t a billionaire and in the conversation for top 3 athletes of all time. Maybe if he had Jordan’s mentality and personality, it would be Duncan donuts.
That's not the discussion here. The quoted post said you can't get respect and adulation without being a bellend to your teammates. Well, you can, and it's obvious too.
 

ThierryHenry

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Jordan's obviously a bully, a tyrant and was a complete nightmare for everyone he played with. I don't see how that's possibly up for debate. And I still came out of this quite liking him...
 

NoLogo

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Not sure what the obsession with the article writer about Jordan's private life is. If he wants that kept out the documentary I won't blame him. I seriously don't get how this is a point you can get upset about.

I do get why people don't like him though. The guy is eaten by his own ambitions and never seems quite happy with anything, he more often than not could be a complete dickhead to his teammates if he felt they were standing in the way of his success and yeah I don't think he is the guy you would have a great time hanging out with.
 

entropy

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Proper bullshit. Tim Duncan had 200% command and adulation of his teammates without "being a bad ass motherfecker". Countless others did and do.
I remember thinking why Popovich wasn’t in the documentary. He probably couldn’t stand the constant circle jerking around Mj and no real talk about basketball or coaching.
 

RobinLFC

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I remember thinking why Popovich wasn’t in the documentary. He probably couldn’t stand the constant circle jerking around Mj and no real talk about basketball or coaching.
Why Pop? I don't think his career really intertwined with Jordan's, they didn't qualify in '97 and lost 4-1 to the Jazz in '98. Don't think they have any history together tbh (unless I'm missing something obvious here).
 

Dirty Schwein

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Not sure what the obsession with the article writer about Jordan's private life is. If he wants that kept out the documentary I won't blame him. I seriously don't get how this is a point you can get upset about.

I do get why people don't like him though. The guy is eaten by his own ambitions and never seems quite happy with anything, he more often than not could be a complete dickhead to his teammates if he felt they were standing in the way of his success and yeah I don't think he is the guy you would have a great time hanging out with.
I don't understand this. He seemed to have some good banter when he wasn't playing/training. He in my opinion was only a twat when he was playing and training.

But to be honest, if let him be a twat to me all day if he carried me to a bunch of championships :lol:
 

The Firestarter

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Interesting that he chose to go back and play with the Wizards , very few have the chance to retire while they are on top of their game.
 

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Interesting that Phil Jackson went on to win 5 more titles with LA. Also watched the whole of the Raptors title win last year and had no idea Steve Kerr was the coach of Golden State.
 

entropy

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Why Pop? I don't think his career really intertwined with Jordan's, they didn't qualify in '97 and lost 4-1 to the Jazz in '98. Don't think they have any history together tbh (unless I'm missing something obvious here).
I thought we would hear more from other coaches throughout the documentary tbh. It would have been interesting to hear Pop talk about MJ, Phil Jackson, and how they might or might not have influenced him. It also makes zero sense to me that sports journalists get so much screen time.
 

Man of Leisure

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I don't understand this. He seemed to have some good banter when he wasn't playing/training. He in my opinion was only a twat when he was playing and training.

But to be honest, if let him be a twat to me all day if he carried me to a bunch of championships :lol:
I think it's telling that Jordan's closest confidants seem to be his security guards.

I enjoyed the series. Pretty much confirms everything I thought about him. The GOAT, insane competitor, not the nicest person. Don't think he's the biggest dick ever like some are making him out to be either. I do believe part of what made Jordan so great was his attitude. Now do you have to be an asshole to be great, of course not. But it worked for him and who can argue with the results?

Not glib. Hes not interesting or compelling or sympathetic. Hes just really good at basketball. And once he stops playing there's not much left to care about.
Do agree with eboue here except for the part about being compelling. His greatness is what made him compelling. Maybe a comparison could be made to Ronaldo. Not the most interesting or sympathetic either, but people want to see greatness. Interestingly enough, there was like a 5 minute clip about Kerr and his father in episode 9 or 10, that I found way more interesting and sympathetic towards Kerr that almost 10 hours of didn't make me feel towards Jordan.
 

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Interesting that Phil Jackson went on to win 5 more titles with LA. Also watched the whole of the Raptors title win last year and had no idea Steve Kerr was the coach of Golden State.
Phil had some career. Won a title while playing (and one while injured), coached teams to 11 titles, was President of the NY Knicks, studied Eastern and Native American philosophy/spirituality, dated the Playboy model daughter of the owner of his team...

It’s an interesting life.
 

RobinLFC

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I think it's telling that Jordan's closest confidants seem to be his security guards.

I enjoyed the series. Pretty much confirms everything I thought about him. The GOAT, insane competitor, not the nicest person. Don't think he's the biggest dick ever like some are making him out to be either. I do believe part of what made Jordan so great was his attitude. Now do you have to be an asshole to be great, of course not. But it worked for him and who can argue with the results?


Do agree with eboue here except for the part about being compelling. His greatness is what made him compelling. Maybe a comparison could be made to Ronaldo. Not the most interesting or sympathetic either, but people want to see greatness. Interestingly enough, there was like a 5 minute clip about Kerr and his father in episode 9 or 10, that I found way more interesting and sympathetic towards Kerr that almost 10 hours of didn't make me feel towards Jordan.
I'm not arguing against the results and that it worked for him, but I disagree with anyone who'd argue that his methods are the only way to be the GOAT or be respected/adored by your teammates. There are 100 different ways to show leadership, and Jordan's is just one of them that worked best for him. Fair enough, but you don't need to be a dick to your teammates (or colleagues, work-related comparison) to be a great leader, that's all.

You can think he's the GOAT and that he was not nice to his teammates, they're not mutually exclusive or anything. But I don't want to hear anyone making excuses for his behavior at times "because that's leadership and what needed to be done".
 

altodevil

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I mean, Gretzky is a good example of your point.
 

Dirty Schwein

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I think it's telling that Jordan's closest confidants seem to be his security guards.

I enjoyed the series. Pretty much confirms everything I thought about him. The GOAT, insane competitor, not the nicest person. Don't think he's the biggest dick ever like some are making him out to be either. I do believe part of what made Jordan so great was his attitude. Now do you have to be an asshole to be great, of course not. But it worked for him and who can argue with the results?


Do agree with eboue here except for the part about being compelling. His greatness is what made him compelling. Maybe a comparison could be made to Ronaldo. Not the most interesting or sympathetic either, but people want to see greatness. Interestingly enough, there was like a 5 minute clip about Kerr and his father in episode 9 or 10, that I found way more interesting and sympathetic towards Kerr that almost 10 hours of didn't make me feel towards Jordan.
Scottie pippen is the man. Not talked about enough
My wife watched this with me and her favourite person was Pippen until he bailed on the team, although he kinda made up for that in the final match where he was injured and played on.

In the end, her favourite was Kerr. He came across great in that. A guy that wasn't the most talented in the team but worked his butt off. Kinda reminds me of Gary Nev.
 

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Horace Grant, who won three titles alongside Jordan with the Chicago Bulls, said the documentary was edited to make Jordan look better. Some critics have pointed out that the fact that The Last Dance was co-produced by one of Jordan’s companies was glossed over.


“I would say [the documentary was] entertaining, but we know, who was there as teammates, that about 90% of it [was] BS in terms of the realness of it,” Grant said in an interview on ESPN 1000’s Kap and Co radio show on Tuesday. “It wasn’t real – because a lot of things [Jordan] said to some of his teammates, that his teammates went back at him. But all of that was kind of edited out of the documentary, if you want to call it a documentary.”
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...ichael-jordan-the-last-dance-documentary-espn
 

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I don't understand this. He seemed to have some good banter when he wasn't playing/training. He in my opinion was only a twat when he was playing and training.

But to be honest, if let him be a twat to me all day if he carried me to a bunch of championships :lol:
Yeah maybe I underrate him in that regard but somehow he never comes across as someone who can actually let go and have a really great time, but yeah maybe I'm wrong.
 

Adam-Utd

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Yeah maybe I underrate him in that regard but somehow he never comes across as someone who can actually let go and have a really great time, but yeah maybe I'm wrong.
I'd think so, most of this footage is in the middle of the season/finals and you'd expect him to be extremely focused and concentrated on winning.

From a lot of the interviews he seemed relaxed and still had a sense of humour so i'd imagine he was a nice guy away from the court, but lets be honest mega famous people like that often don't need to be nice like regular people.
 

RobinLFC

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I never thought he was funny or had a sense of humour. It was always bad "banter" right on the edge and I felt like one bad reaction to that from his teammates would immediately result in an argument. He looked like the kind of person you have to tip-toe around and just smile and nod not to set them off. Or the kind of person who'd go from "relaxed" to extremely pissed in the blink of an eye on the golf course once someone did something he didn't like.
 

Mihajlovic

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I never thought he was funny or had a sense of humour. It was always bad "banter" right on the edge and I felt like one bad reaction to that from his teammates would immediately result in an argument. He looked like the kind of person you have to tip-toe around and just smile and nod not to set them off. Or the kind of person who'd go from "relaxed" to extremely pissed in the blink of an eye on the golf course once someone did something he didn't like.
I'm not sure how much of the behavior we've seen on the documentary is due to the fact that he was constantly aware of the camera team being in his face. It's almost like he felt compelled to make all this jokes because he was being filmed permanently.
 

RobinLFC

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I'm not sure how much of the behavior we've seen on the documentary is due to the fact that he was constantly aware of the camera team being in his face. It's almost like he felt compelled to make all this jokes because he was being filmed permanently.
Could also be true, yeah. To be honest he was more interesting during media interviews than I thought he would be. Interesting, honest and insightful, witty at times.
 

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I'm not sure how much of the behavior we've seen on the documentary is due to the fact that he was constantly aware of the camera team being in his face. It's almost like he felt compelled to make all this jokes because he was being filmed permanently.
His ribbing and comments did feel very forced to me. Almost like he felt like that was how he was supposed to act. Like an alien who has researched locker room culture and tried to replicate it.
 

BusbyMalone

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So I just finished this today. As someone who has absolutely no interest or knowledge of the NBA, I found this Documentary incredible. Obviously I’m aware of Jordan as the guy transcends the sport and is ubiquitous in pop culture. I also know Rodman, but that’s because of his off-court antics and his larger than life personality. I had absolutely no idea what sort of basketball player he was or how good he was. So for me, this documentary was great. The games that were shown, the finals that were talked about were genuinely new to me. I had no idea about the outcomes, who was going to win, whether the Bulls would come back or not when they were trailing, etc., so it had that tension that probably wasn’t there for people who already knew the outcomes of these events. I mean, I obviously knew they were going to go on a winning steak as that was the premise of the documentary, but I didn’t know to what extent.

I knew that Jordan was often talked about as the best ever, but was still surprised by how much he drove that team on. I know there’s been a lot of talk about his tyrannical style and how he rubbed people up the wrong way. The documentary has obviously brought this to the fore again and he’s come in for a lot of criticism. I’ve also been reading a lot of sneering remarks about Jordan and how he was just a bully, etc. To be honest, I haven’t got much of an opinion on that, I just found him fascinating as a character. To have that drive to go along with that talent I just found totally captivating.

Pippin came across as a nice guy. No idea whether he is or not, as I don’t know anything about him apart from what I saw in this documentary, but he came across as a cool, laid back guy. Rodman was fascinating. I just sort of dismissed him, really. Obviously this was my ignorance at play here, but I just assumed he was known purely for his antics off the court and not for what he did on it. In this documentary, though, he came off as a very important player and was integral to the success of this team. The fact that he was able to get up to the sort of stuff he got up to, yet remained an important cog in the wheel would testify to that. You don’t give that sort of leeway to someone who’s not contributing.

Steve Kerr is another I would like to single out. In the penultimate episode, they dedicated some time to him and I loved that bit. He genuinely came across as a really nice, humble guy. I loved delving into his past a little and how he wasn’t necessarily the best player around or the most talented, but he worked hard at it and found success. Top bloke.

Anyway, incredible documentary. Up there with the best I’ve seen. It actually got me interested in basketball. May give the NBA a watch when it comes back.
 
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SirAF

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@BusbyMalone As another non basket guy this is basically spot on with what I feel about the documentary as well. Riveting stuff.
 

BusbyMalone

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@BusbyMalone As another non basket guy this is basically spot on with what I feel about the documentary as well. Riveting stuff.
Yep. All the best documentaries do this. Takes a subject you have no interest in, and leaves you wanting more by the end. Senna was a similar one for me.
 

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Love this show. As a guy in his mid 30s, I'm always going to lean towards MJ being the GOAT but seriously Jordan's way cooler than LeBron James or any of this generation's NBA superstars. Those behind the scenes videos of him taking the piss out of his team mates and generally being a competitive dick to everyone is riveting.

I've been watching videos of other NBA players telling people their Jordan stories. Kevin Garnett has one that cracks me the feck up. :lol:


Here's one of a 36 year old retired MJ going one on one with a rookie who talked too much. Him telling the kid to look around him at all the championship banners at the place was particularly badass. That first basket he made was smooth af.

Love it
 

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Really? I thought that was the one thing that disappointed me, that he apparently always needed someone to trigger him and that he couldn't keep up his winning mentality from within, from an inner drive. I also used to think he was quite invincible in the playoffs, but there were games where you'd expect him to get the job done or get his team over the line and he completely disappeared, e.g. letting the Sonics get back in the series after being up 3-0. Those are things that modern day superstars like LeBron get absolutely rinsed for if they do it with the online exposure they have right now, but Jordan also had games like that. If you need to lose to BJ Armstrong first before you get motivated, in the second round of the playoffs, then you lack an elite mentality imo.

His "that's what you gotta do if you want to be a leader" to justify his horrible behaviour towards some of his teammates is a pretty poor excuse as well to me.
Clueless!
 

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Not glib. Hes not interesting or compelling or sympathetic. Hes just really good at basketball. And once he stops playing there's not much left to care about.
He's absolutely compelling. He's still got you talking some 20 years after retiring. Doubt the Warriors or Raptors or James would generate this much interest 20 years later.
 

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Jose comes from the Jordan school of bullying seemingly. Pippen seemed like a bitch as well. Steve Kerr is the man.