The "lazy black player" stereotype

[Borden]

He primarily not described and big and powerful no.

Well he isn’t particularly big so that’s not very surprising is it?

Zlatan however is, and he’s been constantly described as such.

 

[Cassidy]

Well he isn’t particularly big so that’s not very surprising is it?

Zlatan however is, and he’s been constantly described as such.

Well he is actually he is of a similar height and build to Pogba

 

[Borden]

Well he is actually he is of a similar height and build to Pogba

He’s not as tall, and physical strength has never been a hallmark of his game in the same way as Pogba (or Zlatan).

 

[Cassidy]

He’s not as tall, and physical strength has never been a hallmark of his game in the same way as Pogba (or Zlatan).

He is of a similar height to Pogba, infact the difference in height between him (6ft 1) and Pogba (6ft 3) is the same difference to Pogba and Zlatan (6ft 5). His physicality is a huge part of his game, especially his athletic leap and ability to beat most defenders in the air and when he was younger his ability to hold of defenders and also breeze past them in a similar way to Pogba.

I would suggest the reason why you think physical strength wasn't a hallmark as much as Pogba is more to do with the media description and representation of the 2 players than reality.

And Pogba main asset is not his physicality and strength either

 

[Borden]

He is of a similar height to Pogba, infact the difference in height between him (6ft 1) and Pogba (6ft 3) is the same difference to Pogba and Zlatan (6ft 5). His physicality is a huge part of his game, especially his athletic leap and ability to beat most defenders in the air and when he was younger his ability to hold of defenders and also breeze past them in a similar way to Pogba.

I would suggest the reason why you think physical strength wasn't a hallmark as much as Pogba is more to do with the media description and representation of the 2 players than reality.

Yep and everyone acknowledges that. Ronaldo’s athleticism and fitness is widely seen as some of his main attributes. So what’s your point again?

And I would suggest you’re talking nonsense. Pogba is a physically stronger and more imposing player than Ronaldo. As is Zlatan.

 

[Cassidy]

Yep and everyone acknowledges that. Ronaldo’s athleticism and fitness is widely seen as some of his main attributes. So what’s your point again?

And I would suggest you’re talking nonsense. Pogba is a physically stronger and more imposing player than Ronaldo. As is Zlatan.

We agree to disagree. The funny thing is Ronaldo himself celebrates his physical strength a lot more than the media do

 

[Cassidy]

Yeah, kind of. He wasn't blessed with great pace like Gerrard was. Where Gerrard "exploded" forward, Yaya lumbered. He basically walked through entire opposition midfields because his strength allowed him to do so.

Except he was actually pretty quick, Gerrard had better acceleration but Yaya in full flow was quick and most CMs were not keeping up with him.

 

[Dante]

McTominay's physicality gets brought up all the time.

Media commentators are, by and large, children of the 70s and 80s. Back then, box-to-box midfield powerhouses were a big feature of the English game. It's not surprising when it gets noticed by those people.

It's not racially biased to mention strength/power. The same thing was said about Ronaldo's header versus Roma.

Spoiler

That header has a lot in common with Pogba's header against Bournemouth, and is the reason for the headlines being about 'power'.

 

[Cassidy]

McTominay's physicality gets brought up all the time.

Media commentators are, by and large, children of the 70s and 80s. Back then, box-to-box midfield powerhouses were a big feature of the English game. It's not surprising when it gets noticed by those people.

It's not racially biased to mention strength/power. The same thing was said about Ronaldo's header versus Roma.

Spoiler

That header has a lot in common with Pogba's header against Bournemouth, and is the reason for the headlines being about 'power'.

Again I don't think we're saying its never mentioned, we're talking about it being the primary use of description for a player. Especially players who have high levels of technical ability

 

[2 man midfield]

Except he was actually pretty quick, Gerrard had better acceleration but Yaya in full flow was quick and most CMs were not keeping up with him.

Not to my mind he wasn't.

 

[Dante]

Again I don't think we're saying its never mentioned, we're talking about it being the primary use of description for a player.

How do you judge 'primary' descriptors?

The original point of this thread was about people who question black players' intelligence. That is unequivocally racist, imo.

But the most recent strand of debate is about talking up physicality. And that was kicked off by the headline about Pogba's powerful header versus Bournemouth. Which is why the Ronaldo comparison is relevant.

I've frequently called out racially biased posts about Lukaku and Rashford's intelligence on this forum (and got loads of stick for it). But I definitely don't see physicality being the primary descriptor of Pogba over and above anyone else. If I did see it, I'd be calling it out too.

 

[villain]

I don’t see much lumbering here, just great technique, quick feet and intelligent play.

But he probably holds off a few players in a few clips, so he must be a ‘beast’ who ‘lumbers’ about.

 

[Dante]

The most recent memories of Yaya are from his final seasons at City. It's fair to say he'd lost a lot of pace by that point and had resorted to lumbering around. It happens to the best of us.

 

[Cassidy]

How do you judge 'primary' descriptors?

The original point of this thread was about people who question black players' intelligence. That is unequivocally racist, imo.

But the most recent strand of debate is about talking up physicality. And that was kicked off by the headline about Pogba's powerful header versus Bournemouth. Which is why the Ronaldo comparison is relevant.

I've frequently called out racially biased posts about Lukaku and Rashford's intelligence on this forum (and got loads of stick for it). But I definitely don't see physicality being the primary descriptor of Pogba over and above anyone else. If I did see it, I'd be calling it out too.

The primary thing I hear about Pogba from sky pundits is that hes a big lad and that he should be imposing himself in midfield (when he wasn't on form). No body can live with him because he is too big and too strong etc etc etc.

I am not talking about him scoring a goal where he uses his physical attributes and the commentator mentioning it.

Its how he is talked about in general, if you listened to that and didn't watch you wouldn't IMO realise how skilful and technically brilliant he really is. That is what I meant when I talked about primary description.

 

[Cassidy]

The most recent memories of Yaya are from his final seasons at City. It's fair to say he'd lost a lot of pace by that point and had resorted to lumbering around. It happens to the best of us.

He was always seen as being lazy/lumbering whilst he was in the PL. Later years or not

 

[Borden]

He was always seen as being lazy/lumbering whilst he was in the PL. Later years or not

So was Berbatov.

 

[Cassidy]

So was Berbatov.

Yes I agree. Yaya wasn't lumbering though was the point.

 

[Dante]

The primary thing I hear about Pogba from sky pundits is that hes a big lad and that he should be imposing himself in midfield (when he wasn't on form). No body can live with him because he is too big and too strong etc etc etc.

I am not talking about him scoring a goal where he uses his physical attributes and the commentator mentioning it.

Its how he is talked about in general, if you listened to that and didn't watch you wouldn't IMO realise how skilful and technically brilliant he really is. That is what I meant when I talked about primary description.

By 80s and 90s midfielders who played the game in a certain way and are projecting their own mindsets onto a modern footballer.

 

[Dante]

This thread is becoming a bit of an echo chamber for perceived feelings and comments.

 

[Cassidy]

By 80s and 90s midfielders who played the game in a certain way and are projecting their own mindsets onto a modern footballer.

Yes I agree

 

[2 man midfield]

Yes I agree. Yaya wasn't lumbering though was the point.

“Lumbering forward like a tree in shorts” was a popular way to describe him on here back in the day. I think partly because it was so spot on.

 

[Anustart89]

This thread is becoming a bit of an echo chamber for perceived feelings and comments.

Sounds like society in general. slowly backs out of thread

 

[Vato]

Christ, society is so full of fragile drama queens it's almost intolerable.

"He complimented him but it's not the right compliment!!"

Get over yourselves ffs, it's fecking ridiculous at some point.

Maybe the "big and strong" compliment is just because not many players are as big and strong as some of the players mentionded in this thread, no?

Sometimes it can be just that simple without there being no ill will or (institutional) racism behind it..

Not saying this will be in all cases but I'm willing to bet it's in most.

 

[Camilo]

There’s about 23 pages of responses to this question that would explain exactly why. There’s no point in me repeating the bloody obvious when so many other posters have done it so much better.

I don’t even agree that his physicality is his “prime strength”. He is a phenomenal passer and has great technique. If he wasn’t black, he’d probably be seen in a much more flattering light as the “maestro” that the Köln fan above was talking about. Pogba would still be a top player if he was built like Marvin Martin but would not if he had the technical ability of Carlton Palmer.

I always think the best example of the media’s unconcious racial bias is the difference in the way Steven Gerrard and Yaya Touré are described and the emphasis put on certain aspects of their skillsets. They were both very similar players at their best (though Touré was imo a more intelligent footballer and obviously had the better career.)

People see what they want to see.

The way Pogba holds players off and creates space for himself is the best in the league, maybe the world. It's a skill. It's a skill that requires excellent physical strength. It's certainly not the only thing he gets praised for (or even the primary thing) - his level of skill and touch and passing and shooting are world class, and the media/fans absolutely appreciate that. But they also appreciate his strength. Do they only mention his strength because of his skin colour? I don't think so...because it's virtually unique in football and ignoring such a talent would be weird.

Gerrard was praised more in the media because a) he was one of the best midfielders around, b) was English, c) played his whole career for Liverpool, and d) single handedly won the Champions League. Toure played for City, in a team being catapulted to the top by insane amounts of money, and was never that good during his time here. If he'd have been better he'd have been praised for it. Surely no one in their right mind would suggest the extra love Gerrard got was because of race...

Are there racist comments that slip through in commentary? No doubt. It does seem like a larger percentage of black footballers are described as "powerful"... But that's just an impression, I've no idea if it's true or not. Could it be that black footballers playing in England are more generally powerful? I guess someone would have to do actual research - if I've learnt anything in my 35 or so years it's that what you think is usually bollocks! The Pogba argument doesn't ring true to me though - he's held in extremely high regard.

 

[manutddjw]

Christ, society is so full of fragile drama queens it's almost intolerable.

"He complimented him but it's not the right compliment!!"

Get over yourselves ffs, it's fecking ridiculous at some point.

Maybe the "big and strong" compliment is just because not many players are as big and strong as some of the players mentionded in this thread, no?

Sometimes it can be just that simple without there being no ill will or (institutional) racism behind it..

Not saying this will be in all cases but I'm willing to bet it's in most.

Well said sir.

 

[RochaRoja]

People see what they want to see.

The way Pogba holds players off and creates space for himself is the best in the league, maybe the world. It's a skill. It's a skill that requires excellent physical strength. It's certainly not the only thing he gets praised for (or even the primary thing) - his level of skill and touch and passing and shooting are world class, and the media/fans absolutely appreciate that. But they also appreciate his strength. Do they only mention his strength because of his skin colour? I don't think so...because it's virtually unique in football and ignoring such a talent would be weird.

Gerrard was praised more in the media because a) he was one of the best midfielders around, b) was English, c) played his whole career for Liverpool, and d) single handedly won the Champions League. Toure played for City, in a team being catapulted to the top by insane amounts of money, and was never that good during his time here. If he'd have been better he'd have been praised for it. Surely no one in their right mind would suggest the extra love Gerrard got was because of race...

Are there racist comments that slip through in commentary? No doubt. It does seem like a larger percentage of black footballers are described as "powerful"... But that's just an impression, I've no idea if it's true or not. Could it be that black footballers playing in England are more generally powerful? I guess someone would have to do actual research - if I've learnt anything in my 35 or so years it's that what you think is usually bollocks! The Pogba argument doesn't ring true to me though - he's held in extremely high regard.

You’re missing the point.

Of course Gerrard was praised more and it’s natural that an English player who was the star player of the most popular club in the media would be. The point is that he and Touré were praised for different things despite having very similar strengths and influencing games in the same way.

The idea that Touré was “never that good” in the PL is nonsense too. He was City’s most influential player in the 2011-12 season and his 2013-14 was a better individual season that anything Gerrard ever produced. He was arguably City’s best player during the 2010-2015 period despite Silva and Agüero’s brilliance.

 

[Dante]

You’re missing the point.

Of course Gerrard was praised more and it’s natural that an English player who was the star player of the most popular club in the media would be. The point is that he and Touré were praised for different things despite having very similar strengths and influencing games in the same way.

The idea that Touré was “never that good” in the PL is nonsense too. He was City’s most influential player in the 2011-12 season and his 2013-14 was a better individual season that anything Gerrard ever produced. He was arguably City’s best player during the 2010-2015 period despite Silva and Agüero’s brilliance.

Do you have any evidence for this?

 

[antohan]

No way I'm reading up 25 pages, but one of the GOATs was black and from a physicality standpoint he was as close as you could get back then to someone like Ronaldo working on every aspect of his fitness. Nobody ever singled him out as just big and strong, let alone lazy, and he can easily disprove any sich bollocks.

Whatever stereotype there is isn't about black players but people projecting their black people perceptions onto footballers.

Re: Yaya on this page, I think the issue was his stamina in later years. He wouldn't last 90mins, but that was directly linked to how not lazy he was. He worked his socks off really.

 

[RochaRoja]

Do you have any evidence for this?

I was searching for some and came across this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...aya-Toure--Manchester-Citys-beast-player.html

All I can say is jesus effin christ.

 

[Camilo]

You’re missing the point

I don't think they I am. I think people read what they want to read into things.

 

[chromepaxos]

Barney Ronay in the Guardian captured Yaya best, I think:
"...it offers an insight into Touré himself: an intelligent and eloquent man who on the pitch has begun to look like a surprisingly nuanced and delicately phrased galloping midfield bludgeon.
Pre-Pellegrini Touré seemed to have two main roles at City: his default setting as a kind of strolling defensive bicep; and beyond this the runaway-dustcart mode whereby Touré would be "released" upfield to launch a series of disorientating forward charges, ball trapped beneath his thundering hooves, the attacking midfield equivalent of the massive terrifying round boulder in the Indiana Jones films that keeps looming up out of mine shafts and rumbling down tunnels and generally scattering the natives."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/dec/06/yaya-toure-manchester-city-notebook

 

[BobbyManc]

Barney Ronay in the Guardian captured Yaya best, I think:
"...it offers an insight into Touré himself: an intelligent and eloquent man who on the pitch has begun to look like a surprisingly nuanced and delicately phrased galloping midfield bludgeon.
Pre-Pellegrini Touré seemed to have two main roles at City: his default setting as a kind of strolling defensive bicep; and beyond this the runaway-dustcart mode whereby Touré would be "released" upfield to launch a series of disorientating forward charges, ball trapped beneath his thundering hooves, the attacking midfield equivalent of the massive terrifying round boulder in the Indiana Jones films that keeps looming up out of mine shafts and rumbling down tunnels and generally scattering the natives."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/dec/06/yaya-toure-manchester-city-notebook

I think that's a pretty awful description to be honest, and one that again focuses almost entirely on his physicality. 'a strolling defensive bicep' and a 'boulder'. Toure was so technically gifted, I've never seen a white player with his ability have their physicality emphasised so much. It's even more bizarre because those marauding runs where his power was most notable were a pretty infrequent aspect of his game.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

He was always seen as being lazy/lumbering whilst he was in the PL. Later years or not

He was not. He was the most dynamic cm in the league for a time and rightly applauded for it.

He appeared languid before he got moving. He also had periods of clearly not giving a fcuk.

He got called what he was, when he acted that way.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

How is this thread still alive

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Christ, society is so full of fragile drama queens it's almost intolerable.

"He complimented him but it's not the right compliment!!"

Get over yourselves ffs, it's fecking ridiculous at some point.

Maybe the "big and strong" compliment is just because not many players are as big and strong as some of the players mentionded in this thread, no?

Sometimes it can be just that simple without there being no ill will or (institutional) racism behind it..

Not saying this will be in all cases but I'm willing to bet it's in most.

It’s even simpler than that in many cases.

As a pretty solid rule: Black players are more explosive and have an ability to be more explosive, more often. That’s not controversial, it’s genetics.

As young players come through, athleticism wins out so often. Less explosive players either develop a skill set that sees them valued, or they get left behind.

There are so many examples of big and powerful black players, than there are big and powerful white players.

There are very few examples of small black players in the mould of Modric, Xavi, Scholes, Iniesta, Messi. Not because Blck players have some inherent lack of technical ability. They’re just generally bigger human beings and are not forced to learn those kind of traits from a young age.

 

[Sauldogba]

Pogba definitetly is "strong".
But so is Hazard.
Probably even stronger than Pogba but you dont here people raving about his strength every minute.
The lazy stereotype is bullshit though.
White players get labelled lazy. Berbatov prime example.
Oh and Lukaku and up untill the past couple of games or even game was lazy.
Extremely lazy

 

[robinamicrowave]

I don’t see much lumbering here, just great technique, quick feet and intelligent play.

But he probably holds off a few players in a few clips, so he must be a ‘beast’ who ‘lumbers’ about.

God, this guy really was the greatest we ever had.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

God, this guy really was the greatest we ever had.

As long as he had his cake

 

[chromepaxos]

I think that's a pretty awful description to be honest, and one that again focuses almost entirely on his physicality. 'a strolling defensive bicep' and a 'boulder'. Toure was so technically gifted, I've never seen a white player with his ability have their physicality emphasised so much. It's even more bizarre because those marauding runs where his power was most notable were a pretty infrequent aspect of his game.

You're ignoring the first sentence in which Ronay emphasises Yaya's intelligence. And in the same linked article:
"Under Manuel Pellegrini Touré has not only been brilliantly effective, he has also been different. Touré 3.0 is less a creature of extremes, performing instead alongside Fernandinho as a central midfielder of real craft, a player of timing and angles and incisive short passing, subtleties emerging almost by stealth..."

Reading comprehension helps in these things.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It’s even simpler than that in many cases.

As a pretty solid rule: Black players are more explosive and have an ability to be more explosive, more often. That’s not controversial, it’s genetics.

As young players come through, athleticism wins out so often. Less explosive players either develop a skill set that sees them valued, or they get left behind.

There are so many examples of big and powerful black players, than there are big and powerful white players.

There are very few examples of small black players in the mould of Modric, Xavi, Scholes, Iniesta, Messi. Not because Blck players have some inherent lack of technical ability. They’re just generally bigger human beings and are not forced to learn those kind of traits from a young age.

What utter bullshit