The "lazy black player" stereotype

Inigo Montoya

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Pogba is a perfect example. If he looked like Bruno Fernandes or David Silva would he be more accepted for the player he is than the player he isn’t.
He’s stereotyped in a different way though. Because of his brand,Pogba gets way more stick than white counterparts
 

acnumber9

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That’s been obvious to me for years. How many black players are regularly referred to as “clever” players or even as “playmakers”? Not many really.

Much more often described as powerful / strong (Lukaku, Pogba, Yaya Toure), tireless (Kante, Fred) or athletic / pacey (Sterling, Mbappe) etc
With the exception of Pogba and possibly Toure those probably are the adjectives most striking about them. I’m not saying that there isn’t bias by the way, just pointing out that in many of those cases it is what stands out. The same way the first thing mentioned about James is how quick he is.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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What do you mean, 'linked to science?'

Isn't the study about language used and the perceptions that go with them?
They’re just using the words.

The statements need to be judged against how often they were correct or incorrect.

Releasing that story without that is grossly irresponsible.
 

ivaldo

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https://talksport.com/uncategorized...e-premier-league-leicester-manchester-united/

It took me less than 2 minutes to google and find this. 9/10 of those players do not fall into the darker tone category.

It feels very on topic that you chose to pluck a stat out of thin air based on pre-conceived notions rather than actually check for yourself.
feck. I googled it and read the top expanded page but didn't click the link/read the bottom. It was for 'FIFA 20.' Lovely of you to just make insinuations about me though instead of clarifying it with me. Not a twatish move at all!

Last years:

https://www.givemesport.com/1476525...n-the-premier-league-this-season-by-top-speed
 
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UnrelatedPsuedo

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I'd love to know how many times black players are referred to 'boy' compared to white players.
Why? Boy and Lad are not racist terms here. That’s a term they use in the shithole across the Atlantic in a derogatory fashion.

Yes it can feel that way when Souness says it in reference to Pogba. But he uses it universally.

It’s used by Scots and the Irish all the time. Keane uses it almost every time he speaks.
 

Inigo Montoya

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5/10 isn't 9/10.

There's 11 players on that list. 6 of those are white.
Mainland -Niles
Fred
Chowdury
Kyle-Walker
Sarr

It isn’t really the point though is it. Your looking for a stat to prove that ‘ darker skinned’ footballers don’t tend to be the fastest. That stat proved only who had the fastest ‘ recorded ‘ speed in the PL. In football across the whole and also in grass roots football, players of West African and Caribbean descent have tended to be the fastest.
The stereotyping issue is with regard to players of colour only being seen as ‘ fast and athletic ‘ without having the intelligence to be a playmaker or creator
 

Mogget

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feck. I googled it and read the top expanded page but didn't click the link/read the bottom. It was for 'FIFA 20.' Lovely of you to just make insinuations about me though instead of clarifying it with me. Not a twatish move at all!
The only insinuation I was making is that you probably subconsciously assumed black players were faster,the same as commentators have been doing, which is why the report highlighted it.
 

Doracle

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Yeah, once they decided to use Football Manager for skin tone, they could easily have also included the player’s speed, strength and mental attributes and looked for abnormalities based on those stats. For example, if the stats show 70% of players with speed of 17 and over were black and 70% of speed based comments were about black players, then that doesn’t suggest any bias.

My suspicion is that there probably is some sub-conscious bias here but that, at least some, is grounded in reality. I play on the wing at football and if I see the fullback I’m up against is black then I’m expecting them on average to be quicker than the average white fullback. Why do I think that? Because my experience is that’s often the case.

There’s also a recruitment question I think. Is it more difficult for a black player with limited speed to succeed compared to a white player with similar attributes? My instinct is that may be the case. However, it’s not then the commentators’ fault that the matches they are commenting on often contain a high proportion of strong and speedy black players and more “crafty” white players.

In short, I suspect that there is an issue here but I’m not convinced that the focus of this report is correct. Even if it is, it feels too high level to actually tell us anything useful.
 

ivaldo

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The only insinuation I was making is that you probably subconsciously assumed black players were faster,the same as commentators have been doing, which is why the report highlighted it.
The link I provided in my edited post from last year shows a significantly higher %.

But even we look purely at your numbers it still supports the notion as Black players make up a smaller percentage of players in the Premier League.
 

Mogget

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Mainland -Niles
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It isn’t really the point though is it. Your looking for a stat to prove that ‘ darker skinned’ footballers don’t tend to be the fastest. That stat proved only who had the fastest ‘ recorded ‘ speed in the PL. In football across the whole and also in grass roots football, players of West African and Caribbean descent have tended to be the fastest.
The stereotyping issue is with regard to players of colour only being seen as ‘ fast and athletic ‘ without having the intelligence to be a playmaker or creator
Yeah, and the other 6 are white.

I know the stat doesn't show which players are the fastest, but short of lining every footballer up and making them race each other, it's the best we can go off. The report just shows the way black players are described is lazy stereotyping. I don't think anyone is saying a fast black player should never be described as fast.
 

ivaldo

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OleBoiii

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There does seem to be a tendency of reducing black players to athletic freaks that only rely on pace and/or power. But they are rarely described as "hard working", even though that too is a form of athleticism. Why? Because 'hard work' is also a praise of mentality. Pace and power on the other hand, could just be the result of good genetics(i.e. luck). People praise players like Kante and Makelele for their hard work, but they seem to be exceptions.

'Skillful' is even more rare for people to use when describing black players. 'Creative' is the rarest. I hardly ever see that. Pogba may be very athletic, but it's his skill and creativity that makes him great.
 

MikeKing

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Even if the study might be flawed, you'd hope this can contribute in a way of getting some of those commentators to sharpen up their lazy commentary and descriptions. They could replace half of those guys with some better commentators even without any talk of skin colour, and those who are still unconscious about racism will probably be the same guys who gets a lot of other stuff wrong as well. Get with the program or move on.
 

Eugenius

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He’s stereotyped in a different way though. Because of his brand,Pogba gets way more stick than white counterparts
The other black stereotype - deemed as arrogant, crass or flashy if you have a haircut, tattoo or wear jewellery etc. Whereas their white counterparts are harmless eccentrics.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Thread has taken a strange turn. Surely it’s not controversial though that black people are generally (on average) quicker than other races. I would say that fits with what I have personally experienced in life and also matches up when you look at Olympic running events etc. Either way saying black people are quicker/more athletic by itself is not racist and doesn’t show a subconscious bias. I do agree with the overall notion that players like Pogba do get tagged with some unfair labels though.
 

BenitoSTARR

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The only way this becomes very controversial is if in fact the players in the study were not indeed fast and strong.

If they were slow and weak but instead great passers or whatever then absolutely this is outrageous. But the study didn’t reveal this.

It could be interesting from the perspective that more black players are being selected for perceived physical attributes and white players for perceived mental ones perhaps but that isn’t the focus of the study.

It’s also not exactly based in any scientific conditions and without the context of the player being described its hard to see this as very controversial or groundbreaking.

If they want this to be scientifically thorough then they should create a database of every PL footballers top speed, acceleration and strength from club data during training sessions.

Then this data should be cross referenced to identify players who fit into fast, strong or both categories.

Then you need to cross reference a fair distribution of player mentions in relation to those attributes during matches and in general media.

If you found a discrepancy between the two you’d then have to be confident that the only explanation is racial bias. This would require context too.

Whoever has done the study has good intentions but they’ve not used a scientific method.


For example when describing someone like Paul Pogba if the only words being used are fast and powerful etc absolutely that’s crap commentary and potentially bias at play but if describing Adebayo Akinfenwa for example as strong... I know I’m using extremes but you get the idea.

There doesn’t seem to be enough context to who they were commenting on nor does the study point out any strength and speed stats to evidence that it is or is not the case.
 

JPRouve

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Thread has taken a strange turn. Surely it’s not controversial though that black people are generally (on average) quicker than other races. I would say that fits with what I have personally experienced in life and also matches up when you look at Olympic running events etc. Either way saying black people are quicker/more athletic by itself is not racist and doesn’t show a subconscious bias. I do agree with the overall notion that players like Pogba do get tagged with some unfair labels though.
Again the problem isn't that one mentions obvious athletic qualities but that often black players are reduced to them, in the case of Pogba it's even more ridiculous when what makes him standout is his technique but pundits easily get caught into the "He is strong and powerful" or a player making a great run is reduced to "look how fast he is". But that's not just about black players, Brazilian players are also stereotyped but to be honest pundits are generally useless and have no brains, you won't get much out of them outside of clichés which are sometimes based on ethnicity.
 

ivaldo

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Again the problem isn't that one mentions obvious athletic qualities but that often black players are reduced to them, in the case of Pogba it's even more ridiculous when what makes him standout is his technique but pundits easily get caught into the "He is strong and powerful" or a player making a great run is reduced to "look how fast he is". But that's not just about black players, Brazilian players are also stereotyped but to be honest pundits are generally useless and have no brains, you won't get much out of them outside of clichés which are sometimes based on ethnicity.
This is it. Unfortunately, the report does nothing to qualify that in any way.
 

VeevaVee

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While there may well be some racism at play with how players are described, I don’t think it’s as obvious as some make out.

This is a sport and physical attributes are used a lot to describe a player, no matter the colour of their skin. Certainly a lot more than players are called intelligent, which is pretty rare full stop.

Pogba keeps being used as an example, yet he is a strong and powerful player. He’s also an intelligent and skilful one, which I think gets praised when it’s witnessed.

I’ve seen people mention Fred, but his number one attribute is without a doubt his work ethic. That’s ok. It’s also, perhaps ironically, the opposite of what this thread is about.

Now that doesn’t mean none of this exists, but I think some see it where it isn’t the case.
 

Mogget

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I think this is a decent example of what the report is trying to highlight, in my opinion.

The first thing that stands out to me in that clip is his dribbling ability in tight spaces, but the tweet only highlights his strength and speed. Is Adama Traore pacy and powerful? Absolutely, no one is saying he isn't, but if that were Eden Hazard doing that I doubt they'd reduce him to only being strong and quick.
 

BenitoSTARR

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I think this is a decent example of what the report is trying to highlight, in my opinion.

The first thing that stands out to me in that clip is his dribbling ability in tight spaces, but the tweet only highlights his strength and speed. Is Adama Traore pacy and powerful? Absolutely, no one is saying he isn't, but if that were Eden Hazard doing that I doubt they'd reduce him to only being strong and quick.
Now that’s a great point. Yes he is fast and strong but he shows incredible technique in that phase of play.

However it is still appropriate to say he was fast and strong in that scenario so it’s hard to say it’s definitely racial bias.
 

ivaldo

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I think this is a decent example of what the report is trying to highlight, in my opinion.

The first thing that stands out to me in that clip is his dribbling ability in tight spaces, but the tweet only highlights his strength and speed. Is Adama Traore pacy and powerful? Absolutely, no one is saying he isn't, but if that were Eden Hazard doing that I doubt they'd reduce him to only being strong and quick.
It's interesting that you bring someone like Hazard into it. Hazard is the modern tricky wide man. He couldn't do what Traore did in that clip because he doesn't have the strength and pace Traore does. In that clip we see two players bounce off him before he accelerates away from 4 players. In fact, I think if we saw 2 players bounce off Hazars, the commentators would make a point of highlighting it. What other winger in world football comes close to having ATs strength?
 

Rafaeldagold

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I think this is a decent example of what the report is trying to highlight, in my opinion.

The first thing that stands out to me in that clip is his dribbling ability in tight spaces, but the tweet only highlights his strength and speed. Is Adama Traore pacy and powerful? Absolutely, no one is saying he isn't, but if that were Eden Hazard doing that I doubt they'd reduce him to only being strong and quick.
But he is fast & strong in that clip. Literally bouncing off players.

Could they have mentioned ‘ Dribbler’ too. Yeh, sure. But from that clip I’d say it was more power & pace was highlighted in that move.
 

fps

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Do you wish to actually articulate an argument? Otherwise I'm going to assume your reply is steeped in ignorance of what is a fair observation.
I'm an infrequent visitor to OT and your info about the songs just horrifies me.
 

Tom Cato

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Tom Cato

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I think this is a decent example of what the report is trying to highlight, in my opinion.

The first thing that stands out to me in that clip is his dribbling ability in tight spaces, but the tweet only highlights his strength and speed. Is Adama Traore pacy and powerful? Absolutely, no one is saying he isn't, but if that were Eden Hazard doing that I doubt they'd reduce him to only being strong and quick.
Strong and quick are positive physical attriibutes for a football player. Are you suggesting that not throwing other or more superlatives on the comment is an insult?

Should football commenters instead of commenting on someones strength instead focus on their intelligence and agility and pretend strength is not a desirable trait?
 

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I wrote a whole long thing that I deleted because I'm a white dude that just took offense to the premise that football commenters somehow influences Ed Woodward (example) in who he hires as Manchester United manager.

I have a few glaring problems with the questions and comments from Jason Lee in this article that I just have to adress:

" “Commentators help shape the perception we hold,” said Lee, the former Nottingham Forest, Charlton and Watford forward. “It’s important to consider how far-reaching those perceptions can be and how they impact footballers once they finish their playing career. "

This is an assumption without evidencial fact. He can't make that comment and present it as fact without actual statistics to prove it. The things that influences a players perception boils down to a MULTITUDE of things all including: physcial stature, public persona, education, actions taken during his playing career, network, health, family status and net worth. He can't make that statement without considering the other factors that all affects how someone is perceived.

" In the commentary analysed by RunRepeat, 643 players were referenced and each was designated a skin-tone value between 1-20 based on those assigned in the database of Football Manager 2020, "

This is such a MASSIVE fallacy that should debunk the entire study and make them do it all over again. You CAN'T undertake a scientific study that so grossly removes considerable attributes fromt he commentary content and use it to assign a result. I'll just use a few real world examples on the outer end of the spectrum: Let's pretend that both players skin tone is: Neon Green: No one is going to say that Romelu Lukaku is cute and crafy. He's a big guy. His foremost attribute on the pitch is his speed, movement and strength. Andreas Iniesta is also neon green, and a comparatively small player. What other attribute is there left when you can't label him as neither strong or athletic? You go with what you perceive as a reasonable compliment: Smart, intelligent, craft, agile. Because that is what you see. And that is why the study is flawed. It needs more variables than skintone. One variable to create a result is inherently useless and contributes nothing. We both see and eat with our eyes. When we see a dish we immediately decide if its tasty or not based on what we see. Our eyes and how we perceive something is everything when it comes to how we view the world. Tall players are strong, small players are agile, agility is naturally assosiated with intellicence, brute force is assosciated with strenth and athleticism. What's being suggested here is that TV presenters actually make an effort to not relay what they see as evident. Plus you know, I'm fairly sure that no one actually thinks VVD is an idiot despite frequently being labeled as strong. Becuse VVD is in fact, strong.

"“If a player has aspirations of becoming a coach or manager, is an unfair advantage given to players that commentators regularly refer to as intelligent and industrious, when those views appear to be a result of racial bias?”"

This question requires a study that goes far far beyond skintone metrics from FM and TV commentators praises.

I absolutely welcome the debate, there is a disproportionate amount of black vs white managers in English football and it certainly has to do with racial bias. But as a study, the one cited in the article proviedes nothing of value because it lacks the most essential part: context
I firmly believe there is a problem and although there may be issues with the study that you have highlighted, I think it is important to raise the issue. The narratives and language perpetuated by the media are worrying and I'm sure there is hypocrisy in the Daily Mail reporting on this. Sterling made some good points around how differently Foden and Adarabioyo were treated in the media with regards to buying a house and this is a similar point that Jason Lee makes, even if he can't back that up with hard evidence.

Context is essential, as you say VVD is strong and this is where you rightly say context is needed. If he uses his strength to hold off a forward and defends well then it may be fair to praise his strength but he is far more than just strong and fast - the question has to be whether he used intelligent positioning and anticipation to defend the situation too; so how do you even conduct a study around that? If positioning was the most important factor, would the commentator/pundit have identified that even so?
 

POF

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I wish Angel Gomes was getting the "power and pace" stereotype! He might still be at the club!
 

Tom Cato

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I firmly believe there is a problem and although there may be issues with the study that you have highlighted, I think it is important to raise the issue. The narratives and language perpetuated by the media are worrying and I'm sure there is hypocrisy in the Daily Mail reporting on this. Sterling made some good points around how 2) differently Foden and Adarabioyo were treated in the media with regards to buying a house and this is a similar point that Jason Lee makes, even if he can't back that up with hard evidence.

Context is essential, as you say VVD is strong and this is where you rightly say context is needed. If he uses his strength to hold off a forward and defends well then it may be fair to praise his strength but he is far more than just strong and fast - the question has to be whether he used intelligent positioning and anticipation to defend the situation too; so how do you even conduct a study around that? 1) If positioning was the most important factor, would the commentator/pundit have identified that even so?
1) This boils a bit down to how you want to describe a situation, and when you go down that route you go so far beyond the scope of the paper-thin study that it's a entirely different topic of dicussion. Does the description of the situation correlated to the players physical stature or his skincolor?

But it's important that I point out that I comment all of this from the perspective of a man who is both physically fit and strong. For me, those comments are entirely positive.

What I'm lacking is the other end of the study-data. The situations where a person of color is labeled as intelligent, smart, agile, crafty, any of the traits that does not directly have to do with brute force.

The annoying thing about this article is that it invites a a very serious discussion on amateurishly collected data. It took me about 0 seconds to find article that praise VVD for being intelligent. "'Most defenders including Lovren and Matic lack the intelligence of Van Dijk', says Liverpool legend" John Aldridge. It' absolutely fine that they want a debate on systemic racism in football, but I'd at least attempt to lay a solid groundwork that doesn't have more holes in it than a tennis racket. You can't go from "Being labeled as Strong and Fast" to "Won't get hired as a football manager because people think he's an idiot" without having some serious data to back that statement up, even for the sake of debate.

2) Regarding the real world application, I absolutely agree. Having a different name or having the wrong skincolor absolutely creates a challenge. I commented briefly on that yesterday here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/blm-in-the-prem.455094/page-11#post-25670639
 
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I'm not sure if it's a race thing or just a body language thing. Berbatov and Zlatan were labelled as lazy. Eric would probably be called lazy by modern day pundits. Martial and Pogba both have a languid style of movement, they seem to glide more than burst a gut, which is what British pundits look for.

May be more xenophobia than racism?

I don't think anybody could call Lukaku lazy, he would work his ass off for the first half and then be knackered. It was more of a fitness issue with him.
 

Jeppers7

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He’s stereotyped in a different way though. Because of his brand,Pogba gets way more stick than white counterparts
Yes Greame Souness thinks of him as a strong powerful player rather than a technical player, because of his brand. Nail on the head stuff there.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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I think this is a decent example of what the report is trying to highlight, in my opinion.

The first thing that stands out to me in that clip is his dribbling ability in tight spaces, but the tweet only highlights his strength and speed. Is Adama Traore pacy and powerful? Absolutely, no one is saying he isn't, but if that were Eden Hazard doing that I doubt they'd reduce him to only being strong and quick.
You can have all the tight space control in the world, but if you want to carry the ball 50m through the middle of the park in the PL you’ve got to be quick and strong. You’ve just brought up a video that’s impossible for anyone that’s not strong and fast.

To make your point you’ve really got to show a black footballer dumping a full back on his arse near the corner flag and ‘Speed, Strength’ still being the take away.

Giggs’ semi final goal was Speed and Balance, Ravels against Spurs was gliding genius. The right words are generally found.
 

Cassidy

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1) This boils a bit down to how you want to describe a situation, and when you go down that route you go so far beyond the scope of the paper-thin study that it's a entirely different topic of dicussion. Does the description of the situation correlated to the players physical stature or his skincolor?

But it's important that I point out that I comment all of this from the perspective of a man who is both physically fit and strong. For me, those comments are entirely positive.

What I'm lacking is the other end of the study-data. The situations where a person of color is labeled as intelligent, smart, agile, crafty, any of the traits that does not directly have to do with brute force.

The annoying thing about this article is that it invites a a very serious discussion on amateurishly collected data. It took me about 0 seconds to find article that praise VVD for being intelligent. "'Most defenders including Lovren and Matic lack the intelligence of Van Dijk', says Liverpool legend" John Aldridge. It' absolutely fine that they want a debate on systemic racism in football, but I'd at least attempt to lay a solid groundwork that doesn't have more holes in it than a tennis racket. You can't go from "Being labeled as Strong and Fast" to "Won't get hired as a football manager because people think he's an idiot" without having some serious data to back that statement up, even for the sake of debate.

2) Regarding the real world application, I absolutely agree. Having a different name or having the wrong skincolor absolutely creates a challenge. I commented briefly on that yesterday here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/blm-in-the-prem.455094/page-11#post-25670639
In the context of negating technical ability and/or intelligence, it isn't entirely positive. Not that I am saying this is done purposely, and this is something that exists outside of football also.

No one has said black or darker skinned players are not called intelligent. The report is speaking about the commonly used phrases and how they link to skin tone as clearly stated.
So if a small percentage are called intelligent over physical that doesn't mean it is saying no one is called intelligent.