The "lazy black player" stereotype

TrustInJanuzaj

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I can due to your next sentence, it's actually the entire point made. Don't talk about players based on how they look but how they play.
Well no the point is we shouldn’t discriminate based on race, but that doesn’t mean we can’t make judgements based on looks, ie, height, weight, muscular definition. Forget race for a moment, Lukaku is;
- Tall
- likely around 100kg (heavy for a footballer)
- Very muscular in his definition.

The obvious comment when looking at those standalone qualities are strength and power, it’s just common sense.

I find this hard to say as I really don’t rate (or particularly like Lukaku) but at his best he absolutely does display power, and even his subtle moments appear less subtle due to his massive frame. That shouldn’t be controversial.
 

JPRouve

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@Rozay Riquelme is an interesting example because he is relatively tall for a creative player at 183cm, Zidane was too and coaches have tried their best to not use them at 10 and try to develop their defensive side and use their physiques instead of simply letting them be who they are, Veron is an other example. I feel that it's a tangent from the racial stereotype but there is definitely a problem in football with judging players on their look instead of their game. I bet that many talented players ended up with worse careers than they would have otherwise.
 

JPRouve

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Well no the point is we shouldn’t discriminate based on race, but that doesn’t mean we can’t make judgements based on looks, ie, height, weight, muscular definition. Forget race for a moment, Lukaku is;
- Tall
- likely around 100kg (heavy for a footballer)
- Very muscular in his definition.

The obvious comment when looking at those standalone qualities are strength and power, it’s just common sense.

I find this hard to say as I really don’t rate (or particularly like Lukaku) but at his best he absolutely does display power, and even his subtle moments appear less subtle due to his massive frame. That shouldn’t be controversial.
The thread is about stereotyping not discrimination, it's literally in the title. And the fact that you keep doing the very thing that is deemed lazy and try to defend it is a bit baffling, the fact that you admitted that Lukaku doesn't know how to use his body should have made you realize that it's the very reason why you can't really highlight his physical game, he doesn't have one. What you are doing is ignoring what you know about the player in the context of football and focus on how he looks, which is what the OP deems lazy and in the case of Lukaku it's also misleading.

Swap Lukaku and Ibrahimovic and we can talk. While Ibrahimovic game isn't limited to his huge frame and power, it is totally normal to mention it and even highlight it, on top of his great overall technique. Because being physical, bullying his opponents is part of Ibrahimovic's game.
 

Rozay

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@Rozay Riquelme is an interesting example because he is relatively tall for a creative player at 183cm, Zidane was too and coaches have tried their best to not use them at 10 and try to develop their defensive side and use their physiques instead of simply letting them be who they are, Veron is an other example. I feel that it's a tangent from the racial stereotype but there is definitely a problem in football with judging players on their look instead of their game. I bet that many talented players ended up with worse careers than they would have otherwise.
Yea, I picked Riquelme specifically because he was a 6ft #10. He probably has similar strengths and weaknesses to Pogba, and even travel around the pitch a little similarly, but never spent his career being asked to play in a midfield two and run and tackle. He was asked to focus on what he was good at. I think his coaches would have been a little more blinded to what exactly his strengths were if he was of West African descent though. Zidane similarly of course, as he’s a compatriot of Pogba and has similar strengths and weaknesses. The fact they are both French should have triggered loads of Zidane comparisons when Pogba was coming through, but all anyone could see was Vieira.
 

El Jefe

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So, it is now considered a veiled insult to be called fast and strong. Some people are nuts.

It is a load of bollocks anyway. Trezeguet, Henry, Mane, Davids, Makelele, Seedorf, Kante etc. have all been praised for their intelligence and ability. Some people just love to find an insult in everything; it is dumb.

It is not an insult to call a fast player fast.
You're right, it's not an insult to call a black player fast or strong or powerful especially if said player is fast, strong and powerful.

The issue is commentators get lazy and just attribute those qualities to some players even if it isn't their main strength. A good example is Pogba, I've heard a lot commentators talk about his pace and power much more than his passing or dribbling even though the latter are his strongest qualities.

Frank Lampard was very strong on the ball but there will be several other qualities listed before his strength is even mentioned. I guess that is what's being highlighted, with a black player pace, power and strength always seem to be the go-to adjectives.
 

JPRouve

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Yea, I picked Riquelme specifically because he was a 6ft #10. He probably has similar strengths and weaknesses to Pogba, and even travel around the pitch a little similarly, but never spent his career being asked to play in a midfield two and run and tackle. He was asked to focus on what he was good at. I think his coaches would have been a little more blinded to what exactly his strengths were if he was of West African descent though. Zidane similarly of course, as he’s a compatriot of Pogba and has similar strengths and weaknesses. The fact they are both French should have triggered loads of Zidane comparisons when Pogba was coming through, but all anyone could see was Vieira.
At Barcelona they wanted to change him, in particular Van Gaal, the move to Villarreal kind of saved him because they were small enough to not have that type of daft request, Riquelme was an extraordinary catch for them regardless of his style.
 

He'sRaldo

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The thread is about stereotyping not discrimination, it's literally in the title. And the fact that you keep doing the very thing that is deemed lazy and try to defend it is a bit baffling, the fact that you admitted that Lukaku doesn't know how to use his body should have made you realize that it's the very reason why you can't really highlight his physical game, he doesn't have one. What you are doing is ignoring what you know about the player in the context of football and focus on how he looks, which is what the OP deems lazy and in the case of Lukaku it's also misleading.
It's interesting, because I don't think black players get enough credit for intelligence generally. I've always thought players like Aubameyang, Sterling, Mane, Lukaku, Pogba, etc despite being fast or strong, are also quite intelligent, but I don't often hear that come up as a description of their qualities. It's usually the physical qualities that get highlighted the most.

In fact, wasn't there a whole thing where Makelele wasn't acknowledged to be an intelligent player until very late in his career?
 

ivaldo

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Are the majority of darker-skinned players more physically developed than their lighter-skinned counterparts?
You seem to be suggesting that is what accounts for the discrepancy, I'm not sure there is evidence to support that. We have already seen that when it comes to pace for instance it is very balanced.
No we haven't. There's been two additional links posted that show the list dominated by darker skinned players. We also need to consider theres a significantly larger percentage of white players in the league, meaning more black players make the list from a smaller pool.

Again, that's not to say we don't hear stereotyping in commentary.
 

arthurka

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It's also the first thing that is always talked about when describing a player. If you listened to the radio you wouldn't be able to distinguish Pogba from Bouba Diop. There is a tendency to animalise black players so that their physical ability is their defining attribute regardless of whatever technical and tactical skill they may have.

It's why we have songs for Smalling and Bailly that literally begin 'he's big and he's black'.
Jaap Stam is white but his song has big Dutch man so not much difference there to be fair. They are big and they are black. Like Stam is big and Dutch. The problem for me is the need to state their skin colour, until that is eradicated we will have a problem.
 

JPRouve

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It's interesting, because I don't think black players get enough credit for intelligence generally. I've always thought players like Aubameyang, Sterling, Mane, Lukaku, Pogba, etc despite being fast or strong, were also very intelligent, but I rarely ever hear that come up as a description of their qualities. It's usually the physical qualities that get highlighted, which could be down to laziness.

In fact, wasn't there a whole thing where Makelele wasn't acknowledged to be an intelligent player until very late in his career?
Makélélé like Kanté has been reduced to running a lot for large part of his career. Kanté and Makélélé are both good passers but people will staunchly fight that, just go in a thread about Kanté. I could add essien to the list too, these three players based their games on positioning, anticipation and therefore excellent reading of the game, they are among the smartest players that you will find but people rarely say it out loud. Even when Makélélé got some recognition with the "Makélélé" the role was never really explained the qualities required rarely mentioned outside of "covering ground".

All the players that you mentioned are smart players but Pogba and Lukaku have a big flaw, Lukaku is a niche player, he is a very smart poacher but he can't do other things at a decent level, he is very specialized. While Pogba is not a multitasker yet, when Pogba focuses on defense he knows what to do as well as any other midfielders, when he is focused on the attack he knows what to do as well as any other attacking midfielder but he struggles when he has to think about both at the same time which isn't rare for CMs, they generally get that in their late twenties, there isn't a lot of "intelligent" and young midfielders because experience plays a massive part in intelligence.
 

Cassidy

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Never seen that of Hazard myself. It’s safe to see anyone do it.

Your second half is just daft. Nobody criticises his technique or questions his intelligence. His decision making and end product was poor for a while. It’s still up and down. That’s not a commentary on IQ. I certainly don’t extrapolate to that anyway.
Yes they have on live commentary. "He doesn't have a football brain" was said plenty of times last season on live TV. It is daft for you to say it didn't happen just because you forgot or didn't watch the games.
It was also said a few times that he lacked technique. He gets it less now this season.
 

Eugenius

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Jaap Stam is white but his song has big Dutch man so not much difference there to be fair. They are big and they are black. Like Stam is big and Dutch. The problem for me is the need to state their skin colour, until that is eradicated we will have a problem.
Race and nationality aren't the same thing, first of all. And this thread is specifically about race and how this leads to stereotypes and ignorant descriptions of players.

Smalling is a tall mixed race English defender and Bailly is an average sized black Ivorian defender - and both have sung 'he's big and he's black'?
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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Yes they have on live commentary. "He doesn't have a football brain" was said plenty of times last season on live TV. It is daft for you to say it didn't happen just because you forgot or didn't watch the games.
It was also said a few times that he lacked technique. He gets it less now this season.
‘He doesn’t have a football brain’ is a lazy catch all term for ‘Bad decision making’. It’s used liberally by commentators and fans alike.

That’s not a critique of actual intelligence. Nor does it have a race angle. It’s been levelled at Jones and Shaw in recent memory. With the latter having a manager say on National TV “He played well because I was his brain today”.

Selective use of crazy Jose is probably a bit naughty. But the point is valid.
 

Rozay

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Even on the caf alone, I read things like this. I remember when the Bailly move first came about. He’d played no more than 20 odd games for Villarreal, most of which almost all on the caf had never seen. I read posts of people suggesting he wouldn’t work with Smalling because you would want a ball-playing defender next to him. Turned out that he’s extremely composed on the ball himself.

Same for Ighalo. Took one game for the ‘he’s actually surprisingly good on the ball’ comments to start.

Just read the Partey thread in the TF. First few pages starts off with the predictable no good on the ball, ‘I’d take him, he may not be that good technically but we need a beast’, ‘can’t pass’ and then there’s the clear moment where everyone actually watches him, and then he too joins the ‘he’s actually good on the ball’ group.

Koulibaily too, people have been against signing him for a while because of his age, and that he ‘relies on pace and power’. Reality is, he relies on it no more than the next centre half, and is a ball-playing centre half himself.

Chris Smalling could even be used to a degree (not regarding the caf, but generally). His England career was ended sue to his not being good enough on the ball, which in and of itself isn’t even that much of a problem, except Southgate then goes and plays Michael fecking Keane instead, who is probably worse on the ball than even Smalling.
 

Inigo Montoya

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I understand what you are saying and I don’t disagree but it’s still a little stupid to not recognise Lukaku’s physical game. He’s clearly fast and when he wants to he’s got strength, otherwise he would literally never be able to retain the football with his lead feet. I do agree with you and the poster above saying his anticipation is probably his greatest quality but you can’t get around he fact the dude is massive, about 100kg of muscle and is clearly strong even if he doesn’t know how to use it.

I would say the narrative around Lukaku reflects that. He’s recognised as a good goal poacher with good physical attributes, but is also someone who doesn’t know how to use them fully to his advantage.
Make your mind up. He was a donkey etc earlier
 

bsCallout

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I don't know if it is racism, but the media agenda against our two best black players, Martial & Pogba is weird.

Even United fans such as Neville say things about these players that are not based on facts, and he buys in to the media narrative.

I'd rather assume it is the English vs French rivalry, but I doubt it.
 

Cassidy

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‘He doesn’t have a football brain’ is a lazy catch all term for ‘Bad decision making’. It’s used liberally by commentators and fans alike.

That’s not a critique of actual intelligence. Nor does it have a race angle. It’s been levelled at Jones and Shaw in recent memory. With the latter having a manager say on National TV “He played well because I was his brain today”.

Selective use of crazy Jose is probably a bit naughty. But the point is valid.
Again no one has said the terms are labelled at only black players. It is the case that the terms are more than often used towards darker players at times without validity is the point.
Obviously, when we are talking about intelligence in this context we are talking about footballing intelligence, I don't expect a commentator to be making reference to a players actually intellect during a game.

"He doesn't have a football brain" yes it is lazy for "Bad decision making" and yes often labelled at players who are not actually displaying bad decision making more than anyone else.

Anyway this has been known and talked about way before the report. Picking out random examples which buck the trend when the report is talking about numbers which reflect a disproportionate slant towards one spectrum of colour makes zero sense.
 
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Inigo Montoya

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Mate my mind is made up. That is how he is perceived by the many (plural), personally I think he’s absolute garbage and a donkey (singular). Has that simplified it for you?
Can you be more patronising or do you wish to work on it further?
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Can you be more patronising or do you wish to work on it further?
Look I apologise that was abit sassy however, it’s frustrating when people try and infer things you haven’t said. To be honest Lukaku is not the right player for me to talk about in this thread, because I really don’t rate him so my perception is going to be different to most. The posts on Pogba however, I absolutely agree with.
 

arnie_ni

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I'd love to know how many times black players are referred to 'boy' compared to white players.
Your going to have to point me in the direction of any player being called "boy".

Its not something i ever recall anyone being called tbh
 

JPRouve

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Your going to have to point me in the direction of any player being called "boy".

Its not something i ever recall anyone being called tbh
Ole does it with Pogba but it's worth remembering that Ole knows Pogba since is a teenager, he probably sees him more like a "son" than an acquaintance..
 
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Classical Mechanic

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Your going to have to point me in the direction of any player being called "boy".

Its not something i ever recall anyone being called tbh
Ole does it with Pogba but it's worth remembering that Ole know since Pogba is a teenager, he probably seems him more like a "son" than a acquaintance..
Usually ‘he’s a lucky boy’ when a player escapes a card they deserved. Never actively noticed it being racialised personally.
 

Tarrou

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So, it is now considered a veiled insult to be called fast and strong. Some people are nuts.

It is a load of bollocks anyway. Trezeguet, Henry, Mane, Davids, Makelele, Seedorf, Kante etc. have all been praised for their intelligence and ability. Some people just love to find an insult in everything; it is dumb.

It is not an insult to call a fast player fast.
Not saying I agree or disagree but this is such a rubbish argument.

Do you think you are disproving racism exists by pointing out some examples where people weren't racist? People aren't being racist the vast majority of the time, even racists.

It's like a lawyer defending his client who murdered someone by giving examples of times he went outside his house without murdering someone. It proves nothing either way.
 

arnie_ni

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I’ve been thinking about exactly this. How many white centre backs get praised for being ball-playing centre backs compared to their black counterparts? And what are the actual stats?

Also your quote from the white author about Mendy shows nothing. He’s not being described as an intelligent player, more just intelligent enough at that particular moment.
Well rio was theeeeee ball playing cb before it became thing
 

Jeppers7

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Pogba isn’t like David Silva at all. Pogba is strong and powerful. Why deny that? He is. He is also extremely talented. Both things Souness has praised him for multiple times.

I said that is Sounness’ issue. Not that he is correct. That’s the issue he has with Pogba whether it is correct or not.

A misconception that you have is that Sounness sees Pogba as a player without top technical abilities. The stats of Sounness calling him the most talented midfielder in the league never seem to back that up though.
He’s more like David Silva than Viera, but no you’re right Souness’s opinion on Pogba is bang on.
 

JPRouve

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Not saying I agree or disagree but this is such a rubbish argument.

Do you think you are disproving racism exists by pointing out some examples where people weren't racist? People aren't being racist the vast majority of the time, even racists.

It's like a lawyer defending his client who murdered someone by giving examples of times he went outside his house without murdering someone. It proves nothing either way.
To be fair that would a decent attempt.

How can you suspect my client of murder? Has he murdered any of you on his way to the court this morning? You all seem alive to me...
 

arnie_ni

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Look I apologise that was abit sassy however, it’s frustrating when people try and infer things you haven’t said. To be honest Lukaku is not the right player for me to talk about in this thread, because I really don’t rate him so my perception is going to be different to most. The posts on Pogba however, I absolutely agree with.
He's total crap (relative to his fee) with a shocking first touch.

I dont think anyone will argue with you there.
 

SweetRightFoot

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With posts like this you’ll be a stellar addition to the forum
If you can't see what's around you then that's up to you. There's a clear movement from from certain elements of society, particularly academia, media and even politicians to foster cultural and ethnic divides among society. Footballers taking the knee and peaceful protesters aren't doing this, pseudo-scientific 'researchers' and mainstream media spin-merchants are.
 

arnie_ni

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I think someone made a point earlier about grouping size etc and then comparing their adjectives.

So you would need to pick a black midfielder similar in size and speed to an iniesta or xavi (as well as playing style) and compare how the 3 are described.

If the black player isnt described as intelligent, crafty, genius, as they are, then you have racism.

Its not necessarily racist calling pogba fast and strong etc, because he is exactly that.

There isnt to many midfielders that have the physical attributes pogba has so there isnt anyone you can directly compare him to.

I think the build of the player (white or black) plays a large part in the stereotyping.

I think white players get stereotyped by commentators as well due to this.
 

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I must've imagined being stood in the Stretford End hearing the Smalling song then. 'Smalling of MUFC... He's big and he's black and he plays at the back' etc.
You must have imagined it? What? Your tone is so strange, all I was literally doing in the first place was expressing my disgust at the chants.
 

Snuffkin

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Usually ‘he’s a lucky boy’ when a player escapes a card they deserved. Never actively noticed it being racialised personally.
watch out for it because i cant be bothered finding examples, it always seems to be a term used on certain groups and not others, I cringe when I hear it, 'lad' is much more positive but 'boy' is derogatory I think