The left-winger market…

[FriedClams]

Should be all over Summerville

 

[goldenboy]

All these names quoted,and I wouldn't pick any of them ahead of Shea Lacey. None of them. Shea Lacey is a good young talent and must be given the chance to play in his natural position.

Lacey has played LW once, yes once, out of the 50 youth team games he's played over the last 3 years. How the heck is it his "natural position?!...

Dorgu, Lacey, Amad.. three good, attacking, left-footed players. Three.

And yet we still need to buy another?

Why spend zillions on Rodgers etc?

Who is saying United need to buy another attacking left-footed player?

Rogers (not "Rodgers"), is right-footed. Yan Diomande is incredibly two-footed but favours his right-foot.

 

[Jeffthered]

Lacey has played LW once, yes once, out of the 50 youth team games he's played over the last 3 years. How the heck is it his "natural position?!...



Who is saying United need to buy another attacking left-footed player?

Rogers (not "Rodgers"), is right-footed. Yan Diomande is incredibly two-footed but favours his right-foot.

It's interesting how football seems to have changed. If Lacey has to take a shot, or cross he will choose to use his left-foot. He is therefore, a naturally left-sided player. he will naturally, go to his left, with the ball. (I have no idea why I have to write this as I am sure you know...) The fact that we have this bizarre insistence that attacking players play-off the opposite flank/wing etc, doesn't change the fact. Ashley Cole played his youth career as a forward. He became a defender. Nicky Butt scored tons of goals, more than a few of the Class of 92 at Youth level. Yet he became the most defensive midfielder out of that group.

You think what happens at Youth Level dictates a Professional career, then I would disagree. And again, my point is that giving Lacey experience, yes experience, of playing from the left, will enhance his game. It does not mean he has to play there permanently. Where does Bruno play? Left? Right? Central?

This isn't AI or Console football.

Watch the Newcastle vs Brentford highlights from yesterday. Brentford have a player, Outtara, who was unplayable, a fantastic game. Left-footed attacker. And he caused chaos playing across the front line.

He gives his team, options, from both the left and right. And that is what I think, v strongly, our young attacking players should be encouraged, coached, to do.

 

[pascell]

Might be a pointless profile when Utd have JJ Gabriel coming up.

It would be incredibly naive of us not to go into the market and buy a LW, because of JJ Gabriel coming up, who might not even sign his next contract for Man United.

If he's good enough and the club are challenging are on all fronts, he'll have plenty of game time, if he signs his next contract at United.

 

[goldenboy]

It's interesting how football seems to have changed.

Thanks for the insight.

If Lacey has to take a shot, or cross he will choose to use his left-foot. He is therefore, a naturally left-sided player. he will naturally, go to his left, with the ball.

Well done - you've proven yourself wrong here...

As you say - "he will naturally, go to his left, with the ball". If you are left-footed playing already on the left-wing, then when you naturally go to your left with the ball then it takes you further away from goal and off the pitch. Hence it reduces the available room you can move in to with the ball, it reduces the amount of the pitch you can see, and it makes the angle and distance to get a shot much more acute.

If you are left-footed playing on the right-wing, then when you naturally go to your left with the ball you get most of the pitch in your field of vision. You have passing, crossing and shooting options all visible to you. You also naturally have an open body shape with which to more easily execute the pass, cross or shot. Furthermore, when a left-footer cuts inside from the right, they rather come up against the opposing LB's weaker right-foot. If you were a left-footer on the left, when you run forwards with the ball you have to beat the opposing RB's stronger right-foot; hence why you basically have to be rapid to get the same amount of space when on the same-sided flank (and Lacey is not rapid).

Literally the only advantage of having a winger play on the same side as their preferred foot is to be able to whip in crosses quicker. But that is a pretty redundant role in today's game given that this function is now rather performed by overlapping full-backs. The increased athleticism and stamina of full-backs in today's game means they can get up and down the pitch to cross, allowing the wingers to operate closer to goal.

Plus, when you have two left-footed players playing at left-back and left-wing, then they are both trying to do the same thing and so will get in each other's way. When you have a left-footed LB and right-footed RW, then you've now greatly increased the potential threat down the same flank, as you still have the possibility for crosses from the full-back, but you've added the winger's far greater ability to score goals and play through-balls from cutting inside.

This article also has a bit more of an explanation of a number of these points, with some pictures in case you struggle with words:

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/tactical-theory-attacking-with-inverted-wingers-tactics

 

[TwoSheds]

Thanks for the insight grandad.



Well done - you've proven yourself wrong here...

As you say - "he will naturally, go to his left, with the ball". If you are left-footed playing already on the left-wing, then when you naturally go to your left with the ball then it takes you further away from goal and off the pitch. Hence it reduces the available room you can move in to with the ball, it reduces the amount of the pitch you can see, and it makes the angle and distance to get a shot much more acute.

If you are left-footed playing on the right-wing, then when you naturally go to your left with the ball you get most of the pitch in your field of vision. You have passing, crossing and shooting options all visible to you. You also naturally have an open body shape with which to more easily execute the pass, cross or shot. Furthermore, when a left-footer cuts inside from the right, they rather come up against the opposing LB's weaker right-foot. If you were a left-footer on the left, when you run forwards with the ball you have to beat the opposing RB's stronger right-foot; hence why you basically have to be rapid to get the same amount of space when on the same-sided flank (and Lacey is not rapid).

Literally the only advantage of having a winger play on the same side as their preferred foot is to be able to whip in crosses quicker. But that is a pretty redundant role in today's game given that this function is now rather performed by overlapping full-backs. The increased athleticism and stamina of full-backs in today's game means they can get up and down the pitch to cross, allowing the wingers to operate closer to goal.

Plus, when you have two left-footed players playing at left-back and left-wing, then they are both trying to do the same thing and so will get in each other's way. When you have a left-footed LB and right-footed RW, then you've now greatly increased the potential threat down the same flank, as you still have the possibility for crosses from the full-back, but you've added the winger's far greater ability to score goals and play through-balls from cutting inside.

This article also has a bit more of an explanation of a number of these points, with some pictures in case you struggle with words:

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/tactical-theory-attacking-with-inverted-wingers-tactics

There are lots of examples of left footed players who find space cutting inside from the left though, this debate is all overblown. Juan Mata for example for me did much better on the left than the right. David Silva too IMO.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you that Lacey probably will be primarily a right winger, but I'm pretty sure he'll still be a good player on the left too if he keeps developing. Clever movement and good ball control still gives you the same advantage whether on left or right. It's just different types of movement that might get you rewards.

 

[goldenboy]

It would be incredibly naive of us not to go into the market and buy a LW, because of JJ Gabriel coming up, who might not even sign his next contract for Man United.

If he's good enough and the club are challenging are on all fronts, he'll have plenty of game time, if he signs his next contract at United.

If you sign a player only 1 year older than him for decent money who plays in the exact same position, then it suggests a lack of faith in Gabriel, as well as adding a clear potential block to his pathway - things which could make him rather less inclined to sign that contract.

United are already trying to do everything to suggest there is a clear pathway for him to the first team in order to convince him to sign a long-term deal, including having already him training with the first-team squad - adding someone of an almost identical profile in Monga would run counter to that thinking.

At least with Yan Diomande he can play both wings and so can shift over in future to hypothetically accommodate him. Semenyo was also someone who could play both wings, and was also old enough that me may be moved on anyway while Gabriel is breaking through. Monga makes no sense in comparison.

 

[Jeffthered]

Thanks for the insight grandad.



Well done - you've proven yourself wrong here...

As you say - "he will naturally, go to his left, with the ball". If you are left-footed playing already on the left-wing, then when you naturally go to your left with the ball then it takes you further away from goal and off the pitch. Hence it reduces the available room you can move in to with the ball, it reduces the amount of the pitch you can see, and it makes the angle and distance to get a shot much more acute.

If you are left-footed playing on the right-wing, then when you naturally go to your left with the ball you get most of the pitch in your field of vision. You have passing, crossing and shooting options all visible to you. You also naturally have an open body shape with which to more easily execute the pass, cross or shot. Furthermore, when a left-footer cuts inside from the right, they rather come up against the opposing LB's weaker right-foot. If you were a left-footer on the left, when you run forwards with the ball you have to beat the opposing RB's stronger right-foot; hence why you basically have to be rapid to get the same amount of space when on the same-sided flank (and Lacey is not rapid).

Literally the only advantage of having a winger play on the same side as their preferred foot is to be able to whip in crosses quicker. But that is a pretty redundant role in today's game given that this function is now rather performed by overlapping full-backs. The increased athleticism and stamina of full-backs in today's game means they can get up and down the pitch to cross, allowing the wingers to operate closer to goal.

Plus, when you have two left-footed players playing at left-back and left-wing, then they are both trying to do the same thing and so will get in each other's way. When you have a left-footed LB and right-footed RW, then you've now greatly increased the potential threat down the same flank, as you still have the possibility for crosses from the full-back, but you've added the winger's far greater ability to score goals and play through-balls from cutting inside.

This article also has a bit more of an explanation of a number of these points, with some pictures in case you struggle with words:

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/tactical-theory-attacking-with-inverted-wingers-tactics

Ok, so you have resorted to insults, which doesn't surprise me, but I'm not responding to that, it's just petulance.

Your arguments are complicated, and muddled. For example, attacking full - backs are hardly new. Trust me on that.

 

[goldenboy]

Your arguments are complicated

Nice self-own there.

so you have resorted to insults

Is being a grandad a bad thing?

but I'm not responding to that

Because you can't.

attacking full - backs are hardly new

They were not able or expected to get up and down the pitch at the same speed to the same degree as they are now:

"A British study evaluating the performance development in the Premier League from the 2006/07 season to the 2012/13 season, shows that full backs have not always been delivering such impressive numbers. During this period an increase of 35% in high-intensity runs and as much as 62% in sprint distance, despite almost the same total distance run, could be measured for full backs. These values represented the largest increase of all considered positions.

The cause of this increase was seen in changes in systems and tactics, away from rigid formations and towards dynamic gameplay philosophies. Full-backs are no longer only concerned with defensive tasks by coaches but may and should become increasingly involved in the attacking efforts of their team. Be it creating majority situations, playing diagonal passes or even crosses and shots.."

https://planet.training/the-modern-day-full-back

No memes and reaction gifs in Football Forum.

 

[OleGunnar20]

Should be all over Summerville

Came here to say this. Just catching up on MOTD and christ, he's looking electric against Burnley. I've been impressrd everytime I've seen him play this year.

Certainly one to look at.

 

[SWE-Chucky]

I am still a huge fan of Yan Diamonde (Leipzig player) who is only 19 years old and has been very good this season scoring 8 goals and adding 6 assist to it in 22 games. He can play as LW (preferred position since he is right footed and likes to invert dribbling) and RW. He has very good pace, fantastic technique, is great at 1vs1, good at pressing, tracking back and helping his LB/RB and taking steps in the right direction every year.

The biggest problem is that Leipzig is no need to sell him this summer because he joined the club last summer and has a contract until 2030, while almost every big club in Europe has been sending scouts and are following him (even though it has been very quite about him but it can be because it might be to early for him to change club after joining Leipzig 8 months ago). Also the fee that has been mentioned is very high, somewhere around £70-80m, and because of his young age, and him only been playing at highest level for a short period, it would be a high risk investment but it would come with a high reward if he keeps improving his game.

I am not sure we are in for spending that high fee for a LW this season while we need to buy at least 2 CMs at highest level and could need another one for squad depth and I also think that a new LB should be a higher priority then a LW this summer.

Here is a good analys of his strengths and what he needs to work on to take the next steps.

 

[Escobar]

I am still a huge fan of Yan Diamonde (Leipzig player) who is only 19 years old and has been very good this season scoring 8 goals and adding 6 assist to it in 22 games. He can play as LW (preferred position since he is right footed and likes to invert dribbling) and RW. He has very good pace, fantastic technique, is great at 1vs1, good at pressing, tracking back and helping his LB/RB and taking steps in the right direction every year.

The biggest problem is that Leipzig is no need to sell him this summer because he joined the club last summer and has a contract until 2030, while almost every big club in Europe has been sending scouts and are following him (even though it has been very quite about him but it can be because it might be to early for him to change club after joining Leipzig 8 months ago). Also the fee that has been mentioned is very high, somewhere around £70-80m, and because of his young age, and him only been playing at highest level for a short period, it would be a high risk investment but it would come with a high reward if he keeps improving his game.

I am not sure we are in for spending that high fee for a LW this season while we need to buy at least 2 CMs at highest level and could need another one for squad depth and I also think that a new LB should be a higher priority then a LW this summer.

Here is a good analys of his strengths and what he needs to work on to take the next steps.

Too expensive and I still dont see why we need to invest in a LW. We have 2 or even 3 players who play that position. Midfield and LW will be our priority

 

[goldenboy]

I still dont see why we need to invest in a LW

Midfield and LW will be our priority

???????

 

[Escobar]

???????

Aahh sorry meant LB

 

[goldenboy]

Aahh sorry meant LB

Why would LB be a priority for this summer? Shaw is still doing well, Dorgu could have a future there, and they'll probably want to assess in the summer whether Amass and Leon are capable of additional being back-ups.

Seems more one to revisit the summer after, when Shaw is probably gone.

 

[Escobar]

Why would LB be a priority for this summer? Shaw is still doing well, Dorgu could have a future there, and they'll probably want to assess in the summer whether Amass and Leon are capable of additional being back-ups.

Seems more one to revisit the summer after, when Shaw is probably gone.

Shaw cant play 2 times a week and hisbonjury recored demands a second player. Dorgu is rather seen as a LW. Amass is not good enough and Leon for sure is far from ready

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Shaw cant play 2 times a week and hisbonjury recored demands a second player. Dorgu is rather seen as a LW. Amass is not good enough and Leon for sure is far from ready

Is he really though?

Or was it actually just a tactical move against City and Arsenal where we knew we’d be mostly defending and counter-attacking?

If I were in charge I’d let the market decide what we do. If the best option on the market is a LB then go for that, if it’s a LW go for that. Long term we’ll need both anyways.

 

[goldenboy]

If I were in charge I’d let the market decide what we do. If the best option on the market is a LB then go for that, if it’s a LW go for that. Long term we’ll need both anyways.

Yan Diomande is a stand-out option for LW; the kind of player who doesn't arrive on the market that often. He's someone you push the boat out for if you can get him.

If you can't get him, then the alternatives for LW this summer seem less urgent and attractive.

In that case, maybe it might make sense to rather get Lewis Hall for LB, as he has been getting rave reviews of late, would up the English contingent in the squad, and Newcastle are currently in disarray.

 

[Donut]

I really like Nusa from RB Leipzig, granted I’ve only seen him once live destroying Slovenia with Norway.

 

[Lash]

Why would LB be a priority for this summer? Shaw is still doing well, Dorgu could have a future there, and they'll probably want to assess in the summer whether Amass and Leon are capable of additional being back-ups.

Seems more one to revisit the summer after, when Shaw is probably gone.

We can't seriously plan a season around Shaw being our LB and I can quite confidently say Leon will not be ready next season. Maybe Amass will be ready, but would be quite the gamble. I'd be concerned if we're not seriously looking at a LB for next season.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Yan Diomande is a stand-out option for LW; the kind of player who doesn't arrive on the market that often. He's someone you push the boat out for if you can get him.

If you can't get him, then the alternatives for LW this summer seem less urgent and attractive.

In that case, maybe it might make sense to rather get Lewis Hall for LB, as he has been getting rave reviews of late, would up the English contingent in the squad, and Newcastle are currently in disarray.

Seems so, still quite a poor market compared to a few years ago where you had the likes of Kvaradona, Leao, Williams and more. Funnily enough only Kvara has actually moved on whereas most others seem to have just stagnated.

The LB market seems quite scarce aswell though. Maybe Nathaniel Brown could be an option, saw he scored a nice goal the other week.

 

[bosnian_red]

We can't seriously plan a season around Shaw being our LB and I can quite confidently say Leon will not be ready next season. Maybe Amass will be ready, but would be quite the gamble. I'd be concerned if we're not seriously looking at a LB for next season.

Shaw, Dorgu as the main 2 and Amass as the youngster depth behind them should be fine.

I'd be surprised if the club saw Dorgu as the long term LW and not a left back long term. He can of course put in a shift at LW but ideally for us to step up you need someone like Amad level on the ball with his dribbling and creativity and attacking threat on the left.

 

[Escobar]

Is he really though?

Or was it actually just a tactical move against City and Arsenal where we knew we’d be mostly defending and counter-attacking?

If I were in charge I’d let the market decide what we do. If the best option on the market is a LB then go for that, if it’s a LW go for that. Long term we’ll need both anyways.

We dont know but in these two games we noticed that he is a much better LW

 

[Lash]

Shaw, Dorgu as the main 2 and Amass as the youngster depth behind them should be fine.

I'd be surprised if the club saw Dorgu as the long term LW and not a left back long term. He can of course put in a shift at LW but ideally for us to step up you need someone like Amad level on the ball with his dribbling and creativity and attacking threat on the left.

if Amass is 3rd choice, he should go out on loan. He wouldn't get enough time to develop. I think he should be second choice or go out on loan - I don't know if he's ready to be second choice.

I personally see him as a winger, not a LB. He's not been good whenever he's played LB or the actions i've seen when he's in the LB position. I wouldn't be comfortable with Shaw and Dorgu at LB going into a season competing on all fronts. Shaw has only ever made 40+ apps 3 times in his career and Dorgu hasn't had a good game for us at LB yet.

 

[Rozay]

if Amass is 3rd choice, he should go out on loan. He wouldn't get enough time to develop. I think he should be second choice or go out on loan - I don't know if he's ready to be second choice.

I personally see him as a winger, not a LB. He's not been good whenever he's played LB or the actions i've seen when he's in the LB position. I wouldn't be comfortable with Shaw and Dorgu at LB going into a season competing on all fronts. Shaw has only ever made 40+ apps 3 times in his career and Dorgu hasn't had a good game for us at LB yet.

Dorgu is the exact sort of left back we need if we are going to have Cunha pretending to play left wing ahead of him.

 

[Lash]

Dorgu is the exact sort of left back we need if we are going to have Cunha pretending to play left wing ahead of him.

If he is a good left back, for sure. I just haven't seen anything to suggest he is after watching all his games for us. It's hope more than any proof that he will be a good left back, I would rather get someone with a track record of playing that position for next season.

 

[Red in STL]

Shaw cant play 2 times a week and hisbonjury recored demands a second player. Dorgu is rather seen as a LW. Amass is not good enough and Leon for sure is far from ready

How on earth have you managed to form the opinion that an 18 year old is not good enough, what's that based on?

 

[bosnian_red]

if Amass is 3rd choice, he should go out on loan. He wouldn't get enough time to develop. I think he should be second choice or go out on loan - I don't know if he's ready to be second choice.

I personally see him as a winger, not a LB. He's not been good whenever he's played LB or the actions i've seen when he's in the LB position. I wouldn't be comfortable with Shaw and Dorgu at LB going into a season competing on all fronts. Shaw has only ever made 40+ apps 3 times in his career and Dorgu hasn't had a good game for us at LB yet.

Nah with European football, Amass will get some games next season and be around the first team squad more. Especially with the increase in injuries

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Most left wingers are needlessly expensive. Even the developing ones! I'd rather keep developing Dorgu as a winger , develop Lacey there too as we await J.J Gabriel maturity and go invest in a top draw left sided defender of Van De Ven/Caliafiori's ilk.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

We dont know but in these two games we noticed that he is a much better LW

I think those games made him look a little better than than he is due to the fact we were mostly defending and counter-attacking.

Once he faces a packed organised defence I think he’ll look far more ordinary. He’s just not good enough 1v1 and generally a pretty poor crosser. Apart from the wonder strike vs Arsenal his shooting technique has mostly looked awful aswell.

 

[Lash]

Nah with European football, Amass will get some games next season and be around the first team squad more. Especially with the increase in injuries

I think he needs more than that. He's only played 22 games in the championship before getting injured. He needs more football to improve, not the odd game for us.

 

[goldenboy]

We dont know but in these two games we noticed that he is a much better LW

I think those games made him look a little better than than he is due to the fact we were mostly defending and counter-attacking.

There's also not been a chance to see him play at LB under Carrick. Fans have only got to see him try and control the entire left-flank on his own under the terrible Amorim.

 

[Escobar]

How on earth have you managed to form the opinion that an 18 year old is not good enough, what's that based on?

Would you start Amass as LB?

 

[Rozay]

If he is a good left back, for sure. I just haven't seen anything to suggest he is after watching all his games for us. It's hope more than any proof that he will be a good left back, I would rather get someone with a track record of playing that position for next season.

Well he’s barely ever played left back. He’s predominantly been a wing back, which would suggest that he is capable of playing both full back and winger. He has conceded himself that he is capable of both and it something of a general consensus that he can play both.

As such, I would say he’s either a very offensive full back, or something of a defensive winger. I’ve always maintained that given he can operate as both - he is far more likely to be able to be developed into a world class full back than a world class winger (forward). Similarly so to Alphonso Davies, for example. He clearly CAN play left wing, but at his age and capabilities - I think he’s far more likely to be moulded into the next Davies than the next Vinicius Junior. He can of course be left to play as a winger, but how good a winger are we talking? Giggs? Son? Mane? I don’t see the clamour to have him as a winger given that he has shown very limited actual talent in one year at the club. His attributes have been far more physical/athletic than technical - and fullback is simply (to me) an easier position for him to master from his current level of ability than forward. To me it’s like a clamour for Denzel Dumfries to play as a forward for us. If he were in our squad, I’m sure he could absolutely play RW in an injury crisis. And I’d be happy for Dorgu to be an option to play wing for us. But in this thread, people are arguing for him over the likes of Rodrygo, Ndiaye etc.

If you are basing your assessment on ‘having watched all his games for us’, then you’re either placing an enormously generous amount of emphasis on his last 2 games, or you have quickly forgotten the vast majority of his games here. And if you want to condemn his defensive contributions based on his games at wing back, then what on earth do you make of his offensive ones?

 

[Red in STL]

Would you start Amass as LB?

I don't think he's ready yet but that's not the same he isn't good enough, we'll never know if he doesn't get a chance, Kobbie Mainoo was given a chance around the same age and proved he was capable, who's to say Amass won't?

 

[Escobar]

I don't think he's ready yet but that's not the same he isn't good enough, we'll never know if he doesn't get a chance, Kobbie Mainoo was given a chance around the same age and proved he was capable, who's to say Amass won't?

So whether the is not good enough or not yet ready, we can't start him next season. Hence we need a new LB, especially since Dorgu to me is more of an attacking player than a defender

 

[SWE-Chucky]

Too expensive and I still dont see why we need to invest in a LW. We have 2 or even 3 players who play that position. Midfield and LW will be our priority

I think you meant to write "Midfield and LB will be out priority".

If you read my post again, then you can see that I wrote that LB and CMs will and should be our main priorities in this summer market - but since this thread is about LWs, I was just pointing out the one I would prefer IF we were in to adding another LW to the squad - also I dont agree that we he have 2 or 3 players that can play as "real" LWs, the only one we have in that position as it is today is Dorgu, who has mainly spent his pro carrier playing as a LWB both for us and for Lecce, even though his best games has been lately playing LW/RW and I would want to believe that is the position that he will keep playing.

If you dont want to search for my post, I will just quote myself from the post you replied to:

"I am not sure we are in for spending that high fee for a LW this season while we need to buy at least 2 CMs at highest level and could need another one for squad depth and I also think that a new LB should be a higher priority then a LW this summer."

 

[gajender]

Left winger is absolutely a priority after couple of Center midfielders irrespective of How we utilise Dorgu for rest of the season , only thing that would change is whether we buy new left back or not .

 

[pascell]

https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/o7Qil5AysQ

Apparently we've spoken with Diomande representatives, but there's a bit of an odd situation ongoing with Roc Nation and his old/current representatives that could slow down a summer transfer.

 

[bb8]

We dont know but in these two games we noticed that he is a much better LW

I think there's no chance Dorgu is a starting LW long term. Doesn't have the dribbling or the passing to be a difference maker there. As another poster alluded when the difference between him and Amad is night and day on the ball, Dorgu can't be a LW for a top side.

Dorgu is a left back or a squad player long term (or both) I think.