LW is not the problem position.
We can play Dorgu, Cunha, Amad and also have several youth players in the waiting Shea Lacey, JJ Gabriel.
We need to reinvest in middle of the park
Noone’s saying we should be investing in LW over CM. I don’t think I’ve seen a single person that doesn’t acknowledge that two CMs is the priority this summer. But many of us, including the club apparently, feel LW is an additional need on top of CM.
Amad isn’t a left winger. Cunha can ostensibly play on the left, but he’s not a LW and instead roams, meaning we lack width on the left when he plays there. Dorgu definitely has a place in our squad as an option there, but that’s not enough if we want to compete in the PL and CL.
Personally given we have Cunha. Plus Gabriel and Lacey coming through. Plus Dorgu. I'd rather we invested in a top attacking left back.
Personally given we have Cunha. Plus Gabriel and Lacey coming through. Plus Dorgu. I'd rather we invested in a top attacking left back.
As players. Casemiro labelled them as the best technically in the sqaud. Shows technical ability isn't enough.Antony and Sancho were great dribblers in the EPL?
Agreed. If we’re going to drop cash on a left winger it needs to be a generational talent type upgrade for me. Yildiz is potentially that type.Yildiz looks really good.
I think we need some depth, I just wouldn't go mad with it considering all those lads. We still need pace from the bench I think. I do agree though, if we're investing heavily, I'd prefer it to be a FB.Personally given we have Cunha. Plus Gabriel and Lacey coming through. Plus Dorgu. I'd rather we invested in a top attacking left back.
LW is not the problem position.
We can play Dorgu, Cunha, Amad and also have several youth players in the waiting Shea Lacey, JJ Gabriel.
We need to reinvest in middle of the park
I'm fond of Rashford too, because he definitely has the ability. Behind the scenes I believe there were a lot of issues that have not come out. Carrick seems to want him back, he knows the EPL, is doing well on loan and has the pace and abilities we need. Defensively is the issue. Also a lot of fans may be on his back, but he would be given the opportunity to turn that around.I don’t like those options to be honest, especially not if we’re to compete on multple fronts. My ideal scenario would be to buy a senior player who can improve the LW without necessarily blocking the likes of Gabriel and Ajayi long term.
Raphinha would be ideal, but obviously highly unprobable.
Even Rashford would have been good for this purpose, but that bridge has burnt as far as I’m concerned.
You just mentioned three first team players that aren't left wingers, then managed to add a kid that isn't much of a left winger too.Agreed. This is a daft discussion. As you rightly note, we have Dorgu, Cunha and Amad and possibly Lacey and JJ might crack the first team soon. This is not a high priority issue to focus on right now.
There's admittedly no harm in idle speculation here but there's no scenario in which we would actually bring in someone to supersede Dorgu and Cunha. We realistically can't be three deep at every position and the LW is without a doubt the least of our worries under the present circumstances.
We need both.LW is not the problem position.
We can play Dorgu, Cunha, Amad and also have several youth players in the waiting Shea Lacey, JJ Gabriel.
We need to reinvest in middle of the park
You just mentioned three first team players that aren't left wingers, then managed to add a kid that isn't much of a left winger too.
I've watched Cunha and Dorgu start for us on the left side of the front line for us and at least I've been impressed with their work.
If what you're suggesting is that we bring in someone that you believe is a real left winger -- a 1990s old-school touchline hugging left-winger in the mold of Ryan Giggs -- so that we can bench Cunha or Dorgu and only have them come on the 85th minute, I'd like to know the names of the players you have in mind. Seriously, who are these "left wingers"?
We should be trying to get better. Dorgu's entire career as a left winger consists of a grand total of 3 good games. Our only other option there is Cunha who clearly doesn't look natural on the left wing, and we are only tolerating him there because we are winning. The fact you mentioned Amad and Lacey shows we are scraping the bottom of the barrel. We need a natural option there considering Dorgu may have to be our left back at some point too.I've watched Cunha and Dorgu start for us on the left side of the front line for us and at least I've been impressed with their work.
If what you're suggesting is that we bring in someone that you believe is a real left winger -- a 1990s old-school touchline hugging left-winger in the mold of Ryan Giggs -- so that we can bench Cunha or Dorgu and only have them come on the 85th minute, I'd like to know the names of the players you have in mind. Seriously, who are these "left wingers"?
Morgan Rogers should be high up the list. He would be a decent option as a left winger next season and an obvious replacement for Bruno Fernandes long term (if he is not leaving this summer). It would give the club a good case when talking to Gabriel about how the club is making room for him.
Diomande can switch back to the RW as well in future when Gabriel is coming through.
Proven how? He has 2 assists in 2 seasons and scored 3 non-penalty goals this season. Honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. He is not some 18 year old kid either, he'll be 26 in two weeks.Agreed 100%. Need two top CM's and then, only then, need to go for a LW.
I love Kenan Yildiz of the options mentioned, followed by Iliman Ndiaye.
Kenan b/c he can play LW and/or replace Bruno eventually.
Ndiaye b/c he's proven in PL and will produce right away.
So can Amad and Mbeumo.
We should be trying to get better. Dorgu's entire career as a left winger consists of a grand total of 3 good games. Our only other option there is Cunha who clearly doesn't look natural on the left wing, and we are only tolerating him there because we are winning. The fact you mentioned Amad and Lacey shows we are scraping the bottom of the barrel. We need a natural option there considering Dorgu may have to be our left back at some point too.
What nonsense. And this reflects the thinking amongst many fans though.. this is PlayStation mentality.. '..just buy this player, buy that player..' And develop none.
Pep has brought through more players than I can name from their Academy and we should be doing the same. To suggest that Lacey and Amad are 'scraping the barrel' is a dreadful statement. Lacey is young and v talented, and Amad is proving to be an important, effective attacking player, at a big club in the Premier League.
But of course, this is not enough for some. Despite the myriad of quite awful transfers over the last decade, lets just keep pursuing that failed model.
Someone stated in this chat that Lacey will not play on the left. Why not? It does not mean he will have to stay there, or always play there... but he has a good left-foot and (like Martinez, Shaw, Dorgu..) having that natural balance from the left makes a massive difference. Look at how we look a different team with Martinez at the back.. both himself and Maguire are great on the ball, and they provide a balance to build our play on.. one is right-footed, one-left, and it is so clear.
Don't get lost in where players 'must' play. Not every wide player is Lamine Yamaal and they should not intend to be. That does not mean he isn't an outstanding talent, it just means that we should not be limited to how players are used.
We have far too many wide players who are ever so predictable.
The poster above clearly meant scraping the barrel for the left-wing to use players out of position there.
Having a left-footed player at left CB is completely different to a left-footed player stuck out on the left-wing. Do you understand the concept of geometry? CBs - and full-backs - benefit from being able to play the ball up-field down the line, and it is easier to do that on the same side. But wingers are not playing the ball down the line, they are already at the top end of the pitch so would be kicking the ball out of play to no one. They rather are aiming towards goal, and they get a better angle and perspective on the goal when they cut inside on their opposite foot.
The game has moved on, sir.
Wingers playing on the same side as their foot primarily in order to reach the byline and cross was even more "predictable" than players cutting inside, as players cutting inside have more options available to them in terms of either crossing, passing or shooting.
I think Beckham would be a central midfielder in today's game.And this post, especially the items in bold, reflect a lot about the modern game. Referencing a form of Mathematics is just odd. I wouldn't use that to discuss football, sorry. Just stick to football debate, which, as your paragraph suggests, is incredibly subjective.
How is having the option of crossing from both the bye line and cutting inside be considered predictable. I (keep) stating that the likes of Lacey do not have to always stay on the left.. we used to play Tevez, Rooney and CR7, as a front three, and they all interchanged. Raphina (today's football!! ) plays from both the left and the right. Foden too. It's an option, which is my point.
I don't really want attacking players to just turn around and pass the ball back into a Centre Half, midfielder etc. Remember Antony? Martial? You must have loved them right...
This is about the ability of players, and how to get a balanced team. Not everyone needs to play like Pep. Not every wide attacking player is like Salah.
May I ask a question: Do you think a young David Beckham would not succeed in today's game? Because I think he would. With a decent manager and playing structure around him, I definitely would. Be interested in your thoughts.. (and please do not refer to Geometry).
Not sure what this has to do with the post I made. I don't even understand the point you are trying to make.What nonsense. And this reflects the thinking amongst many fans though.. this is PlayStation mentality.. '..just buy this player, buy that player..' And develop none.
Pep has brought through more players than I can name from their Academy and we should be doing the same. To suggest that Lacey and Amad are 'scraping the barrel' is a dreadful statement. Lacey is young and v talented, and Amad is proving to be an important, effective attacking player, at a big club in the Premier League.
But of course, this is not enough for some. Despite the myriad of quite awful transfers over the last decade, lets just keep pursuing that failed model.
Someone stated in this chat that Lacey will not play on the left. Why not? It does not mean he will have to stay there, or always play there... but he has a good left-foot and (like Martinez, Shaw, Dorgu..) having that natural balance from the left makes a massive difference. Look at how we look a different team with Martinez at the back.. both himself and Maguire are great on the ball, and they provide a balance to build our play on.. one is right-footed, one-left, and it is so clear.
Don't get lost in where players 'must' play. Not every wide player is Lamine Yamaal and they should not intend to be. That does not mean he isn't an outstanding talent, it just means that we should not be limited to how players are used.
We have far too many wide players who are ever so predictable.
And this post, especially the items in bold, reflect a lot about the modern game. Referencing a form of Mathematics is just odd. I wouldn't use that to discuss football, sorry. Just stick to football debate, which, as your paragraph suggests, is incredibly subjective.
Raphina (today's football!! ) plays from both the left
How is having the option of crossing from both the bye line and cutting inside be considered predictable.
Not sure what this has to do with the post I made. I don't even understand the point you are trying to make.
We should be trying to get better. Dorgu's entire career as a left winger consists of a grand total of 3 good games. Our only other option there is Cunha who clearly doesn't look natural on the left wing, and we are only tolerating him there because we are winning. The fact you mentioned Amad and Lacey shows we are scraping the bottom of the barrel. We need a natural option there considering Dorgu may have to be our left back at some point too.
Good post with a lot of common sense arguments. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.I completely agree that United "should be trying to get better". But what does that really mean on a position by position basis?
For example, all of us acknowledge that Senne Lammens has been brilliant for us. But none of us would argue that he's the greatest keeper on the planet. He probably not even on anyone's top ten keepers list. Under the operating theory that we should always try to get better does it therefore follow that we should seek to upgrade on Lammens? Of course not, right? Despite his youth and relative lack of experience -- is it even 20 games now for United? -- every one of us is on board with Lammens as our starting keeper going into next season. At least I believe that must be the case. Maybe I'm wrong.
The task ahead of management is to shore up areas of weakness in the squad and without any doubt whatsoever the area of primary concern is central midfield. There's no need to elaborate here on that point except to say that we need to bring in 2 (some here have argued 3, but I argue 2) midfielders. The outlay for two proper CMs, one being more B2B and the other being more CDM, is probably going to land somewhere around 120-140m. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think we're going to find diamonds in the rough for cheap for the CM positions as we did for Lammens, who cost us only 18m but who now is probably worth at least 60m.
We need a backup striker more than we need what has been argued as a real left-winger. That's an indisputable fact, but what I have no idea of how much we would need to spend to bring in a decent backup for Sesko. I'll just make up a number and say 30m.
So we're already going to spend let's say 150m to shore up areas of greater need. Let's just make up a number and say we're got another 50m left in the transfer account for a total of 200m (If my math is right I think we spent net 230m last summer for Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha and Lammens.
By the way, we spent 62m for Cunha, whom some of us are now proposing to bench for a new LW who, if he's better than Cunha, will cost us at least another 62m. I'm not opposed to finding a diamond in the rough -- although to go off on a tangential point I don't want to spend too much time on right now, I don't want to block the path for JJ Gabriel in 2-3 years as he looks a sensational prospect (the kind of prospect we're all dreaming of) and is expected to join the first team next season, even if he gets only a few chances in competitive action with the first team -- for 15-20m, but what I think you mean is "getting better" than Cunha and my response to that Cunha has been fantastic for us since Amorim left and that even if we think he hasn't been good enough under Carrick I struggle with the logic of spending what would have to be at least 62m for an upgrade on a player, who's been fantastic for us, who cost us 62m.
And then there is Dorgu, who's more an attacking weapon than a defensive weapon. From time to time here we all opine about playing players out of their ideal position, such as Martinez as CDM, but that never really does make any sense. We did that with Bruno under Amorim and although it wasn't necessarily a disaster it really was a very bad idea and largely contributed to our malaise under Amorim. No, Dorgu should be developed as an attacking player and not a defender although in a late game situation or a severe injury crisis I have no problem shuffling Dorgu to the back line.
Let's focus on priority needs first before even thinking about going galactico.
Proven how? He has 2 assists in 2 seasons and scored 3 non-penalty goals this season. Honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. He is not some 18 year old kid either, he'll be 26 in two weeks.
I completely agree that United "should be trying to get better". But what does that really mean on a position by position basis?
For example, all of us acknowledge that Senne Lammens has been brilliant for us. But none of us would argue that he's the greatest keeper on the planet. He probably not even on anyone's top ten keepers list. Under the operating theory that we should always try to get better does it therefore follow that we should seek to upgrade on Lammens? Of course not, right? Despite his youth and relative lack of experience -- is it even 20 games now for United? -- every one of us is on board with Lammens as our starting keeper going into next season. At least I believe that must be the case. Maybe I'm wrong.
The task ahead of management is to shore up areas of weakness in the squad and without any doubt whatsoever the area of primary concern is central midfield. There's no need to elaborate here on that point except to say that we need to bring in 2 (some here have argued 3, but I argue 2) midfielders. The outlay for two proper CMs, one being more B2B and the other being more CDM, is probably going to land somewhere around 120-140m. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think we're going to find diamonds in the rough for cheap for the CM positions as we did for Lammens, who cost us only 18m but who now is probably worth at least 60m.
We need a backup striker more than we need what has been argued as a real left-winger. That's an indisputable fact, but what I have no idea of how much we would need to spend to bring in a decent backup for Sesko. I'll just make up a number and say 30m.
So we're already going to spend let's say 150m to shore up areas of greater need. Let's just make up a number and say we're got another 50m left in the transfer account for a total of 200m (If my math is right I think we spent net 230m last summer for Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha and Lammens.
By the way, we spent 62m for Cunha, whom some of us are now proposing to bench for a new LW who, if he's better than Cunha, will cost us at least another 62m. I'm not opposed to finding a diamond in the rough -- although to go off on a tangential point I don't want to spend too much time on right now, I don't want to block the path for JJ Gabriel in 2-3 years as he looks a sensational prospect (the kind of prospect we're all dreaming of) and is expected to join the first team next season, even if he gets only a few chances in competitive action with the first team -- for 15-20m, but what I think you mean is "getting better" than Cunha and my response to that Cunha has been fantastic for us since Amorim left and that even if we think he hasn't been good enough under Carrick I struggle with the logic of spending what would have to be at least 62m for an upgrade on a player, who's been fantastic for us, who cost us 62m.
And then there is Dorgu, who's more an attacking weapon than a defensive weapon. From time to time here we all opine about playing players out of their ideal position, such as Martinez as CDM, but that never really does make any sense. We did that with Bruno under Amorim and although it wasn't necessarily a disaster it really was a very bad idea and largely contributed to our malaise under Amorim. No, Dorgu should be developed as an attacking player and not a defender although in a late game situation or a severe injury crisis I have no problem shuffling Dorgu to the back line.
Let's focus on priority needs first before even thinking about going galactico.
Good post with a lot of common sense arguments. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.
Look, nobody's saying splash £62m on a left winger or prioritize it over midfield. Midfield is obviously the main concern and should eat up most of the budget. But LW is still a gap worth addressing if we can do it smartly.
Your Lammens example doesn't really work. We don't need to upgrade keeper because Lammens is the solution - young, talented, doing the job. LW is different. Dorgu's played well there but only for a few games, Cunha's makeshift on the left, and we're banking on youth. That's not a settled position.
W.r.t. Cunha, the point isn't to bench him. He's brilliant centrally and roaming around. But when he plays left wing we lose natural width, which limits us tactically. Having a proper left winger means Cunha stays central where he's best and we get width when we need it. That's complementing him, not replacing him. And if Dorgu has to cover left back (which you're saying he might), and Cunha's playing centrally, who's the natural LW? That's the issue.
Nobody's arguing LW over CM. But if we can find someone for £25-30m after sorting midfield, that's sensible squad building. Acting like it's not even worth discussing because we've made do for a few games seems a tad short sighted to me.
Cunha and Dorgu are not "a gap", so your analysis falls apart on the starting blocks. And there is no way we're going to find an upgrade on either Cunha or Dorgu -- who together cost United 100m -- "smartly". And if we're going to be smart about it, which I endorse, we should groom Lacey and Gabriel into the role over the next 2-3 years. That said, there's no reason to believe that we're going to get rid of either Cunha or Dorgu, both of whom have been brilliant for us, but in terms of adding depth Lacey and Gabriel are exceptional talents ready to force their way into the reckoning over the next 2-3 seasons. Yes, we could make another buy to block the path for Lacey and (the real talent) Gabriel, but that would not be sensible.
If the argument is to add depth Cunha and Dorgu, sure of course if there's a great prospect available for 5-10m to be our third choice left forward let's at least give it some thought, but at that point by definition buying a LW is not a high priority and by definition we are adding a new body in Gabriel's way. I have no doubt that Gabriel will train with the first team next season but at the same time that his minutes with the first team will be few, but by all accounts he's an exceptional talent.
Spending another 25-30m as a third choice LW after we spent 100m on Cunha and Dorgu (who only came to OT six months earlier so I recall) under these circumstances would be madness. There is such a thing called a budget. Even after we address the CM positions, which will likely come in closer to 150m than 100m, the higher priority is LB as Shaw is close to the end of his contract and in any event his injury record is always a concern. Whereas we have 2 very good LW players on the books right now, we only have 1 true CF. We need 2 CFs and LWs more than we need 3 LWs and 1 CF. And if we do all that, 2 CMS, one LB and 1 CF, that takes us well over 200m and there's no reason to believe that we'll have 300m to spend this summer.
