The main current problem, players or formation ?

The whole formation thing is so stupid. Man City won the treble with a few seasons ago.

It's the default shape for a lot of teams, but because it's not spelled out on the team sheet our fans thought it was something exotic.

One of the stupider things I've seen discourse about on here (second only to whether difference between Guardiola and Ole was the quality of the coaches they had).

It distracted from the things Amorim was actually genuinely quite bad with - his subs were shite, he had the wrong personnel in midfield and for whatever reason he couldn't get the team to lockdown an attack. But the shape was not one of the issues.
 
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Player quality is definitely a big problem but for me the biggest problem is player mentality. Too many players in the squad seems perfectly happy where they are right now.
Long gone are the days when we had player like Rooney, Ronaldo, Keane, Vidic and so on. Players who would do anything to win a game, player who where ready to step up when thing mattered the most. Now we are stuck with the likes of Dalot a player who celebrates like he's scored a goal when he puts it out for corner for the opposition.
 
Of course it's the players. We have no midfield. A past it Casemiro is our only decent option.
 
I hate this horrible, depressing cycle we are in.

Is the manager rubbish? Are the players rubbish? Every year or two we get into this discussion.

In the end it seems the lot of them are. It's a really sad situation
 
We are so so lacking in players failing to do the basics well. How many short passes do we miss? How many possessions do we lose due to poor first touch?

If you don’t have a team full of players capable of a simple control, pass and move, then you are doomed to fail if you try playing anything other than low block and long balls, no manager can have players with low technical skills and somehow have his team play positive football and have more control of games
 
The lack of urgency is just so embarrassing, this was basically the only thing to play for and we were so flat in the second half. So many of them just walking around doing nothing.
 
Still convinced we will work out better in this shape than 3421... But that was really bad in parts.

But my read of it was either poor instructions, or poor execution of the instructions.

The right hand side was useless, but TBF to Mount he was playing out of position. And Dalot was all over the place again...

But the biggest worry for me were the holes we were leaving everywhere.

Cunha just will not hold his position in the left-hand channel. Big worry because we don't have many other options there.

And if we are going to be pushing the FBs high and wide, which I am in favour of... The double pivot in midfield just have to hold the centre of the pitch. They need to be in complete sync almost like a CB partnership. Far too many straight runs forwards. Far too many time getting pulled out wide. Far too many times one pressed without the other. And their attacked just kept on getting on the ball in the half space.

That was like ETH Chaos ball. Just a lack of coordination all over the pitch....
 
AndySmith1990 said:
I hate this horrible, depressing cycle we are in.

Is the manager rubbish? Are the players rubbish? Every year or two we get into this discussion.

In the end it seems the lot of them are. It's a really sad situation
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Neither is exclusive. It's both and has been both for quite a time. Sadly our ownership is unfeckingable to get anything right. From managers to players. We spent hundreds of millions and our squad each year looks worse than the one before. It's unreal
 
All the people thinking formation was the problem must have slept through last few years. These players are cowards, soft and have no real desire to lift the club. Shaw, Maguire and Dalot have been here years, shit most of the time. We have awful recent signings who either can’t control a football or don’t have the physical attributes to play for a club this size like Ugarte, Martinez, Dorgu. The culture at the club is putrid.
 
The squad composition does look stranger now we’ve gone back to a back 4. We have about 5 players who like that number 10 spot, zero creativity in the midfield if you remove Bruno from the centre, and possibly an overload on the RW with Amad and Mbeumo. Full backs are pretty underwhelming too. At least Amad was surprisingly good at RwB.
 
I don't know why people think there's a problem. We've won things, had half decent league performances now and again. All is well. Be nice to win more but hey, if we want that we just need to get in a solid coach like Moyes and let him do his proven thing
 
Everything. Squad, manager, coaching staff, owners, sporting/technical directors, CEO. All of them are useless and clueless and have been since Sir Alex stepoed down. It got continually worse and will continue like this.
 
We need better quality players, more depth and just more competition for places. Unfortunately that involves good scouting, using free transfer market. Proper planning etc.
 
Case is our only half decent midfielder, whatever formation we need to buy two midfielders.

We've spent 100m on Ugarte and Yoro. Not a good use of funds but seems no one can identify anyone to buy.

Matic Herrera was good for a short time, Case Eriksen held it down for 6 months in ETH first season. Been patched up for years.
 
Zed is not dead said:
We are so so lacking in players failing to do the basics well. How many short passes do we miss? How many possessions do we lose due to poor first touch?

If you don’t have a team full of players capable of a simple control, pass and move, then you are doomed to fail if you try playing anything other than low block and long balls, no manager can have players with low technical skills and somehow have his team play positive football and have more control of games
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This. Shocking today, just a bunch of football players who frankly are just not good enough technically; Bruno's not a magician; he has to pass to others, and every time he does the move just breaks down as it bounces off their shins or they pass it short or out of play.
 
It’s our very own Brexit. I know it’s wrong but if it wasn’t our team on the receiving end this would definitely be the funniest shit ever. It’s literally a zombie apocalypse. All screaming running and tearing and now just two days later and no manager to render and we are just all stood around bumping into each other wondering what to do next. Course it’s the players or manager or board etc…
 
Formations is an easy excuse when things are going wrong. It’s down to the personnel.

Nearly every formation in football at different stages of the game will revert to another. For example if you have 4 at the back and both full backs are forward a cdm will or should be dropping in to make it a 3. 451 442 433 424 all revert into each other at different stages of game.

The problem is having players who lack the knowledge awareness capability and workrate to know where and when to cover or commit.

Having the awareness or desire to cover for your mate who’s out of position is fundamental in any level of football whether it’s grassroots Sunday league or premiership.

We were spoilt with players like beckham mclair Rooney tevez park fletcher etc who would cover every blade of grass. We don’t no more. I can remember Rooney chasing down a counter attack when we were 5 up vs Newcastle. No one has that desire or commitment anymore.
 
I think it's the culture at the club. We've been through so many formations and players, that can't be the issue anymore.

Players just accept that they'll never get this club to the top again and winning the odd trophy or a top 4 finish is more than enough.

Years of putting profits over standards has caused this. I.e Glazer greed.
 
RedDevil [NC] said:
Our main problem is too many absolutely useless players that continually get playing time.
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Ive been saying this since Ole got sacked first time round. Our players simply are not good enough. Combine with the pressure of being Man Utd - You have to win every single game. Only, we're a mid-lower table side. Put this sort of pressure on Brighton, or Everton where they have to win EVERY game, irrespective of who you're playing against, and you'll see terrible football and results. People say "ooh the fans are to blame allowing standards to slip". Well mateys, Im here to tell you, standards have slipped, and we're putting so much pressure on our players expecting someone to come in turn this ship around, challenge for the title. THIS IS WHO WE ARE now.
 
Always has been the players that are the main problem. Woeful recruitment under Ten Hag the main cause.

A problem now is that 2 of our very few good players play in the same position (Amad and Mbeumo).
 
The biggest issue with the formation under Amorim was it wa the only one he would play. We have a gaping hole on our midfield irrespective of the personnel or formation and don’t defend very well no matter whether we have a back 3, 4 or 5.

We need much better management to get more out of what we have and we still need a lot of upgrades not just as starters but as squad players as well.
 
Quality of players have still been a problem under Amorim regardless of his system. We all knew we couldn’t do everything we really needed to do in one summer. Our attack was abysmal last year though so that took priority since goals win games and then it was going to be an outlay for midfield in 2026.

There are definitely a few players in there who need to be shipped out eventually like Shaw, Maguire and Dalot who have all disappointed for far too long. I’d personally like to throttle the idiot who signed off on Shaw’s four year extension in 2023.
 
Out of both cups, no Europe, no head coach, one billion i debts, an old stadium, clueless board, owners who doesn't care and a squad that is lacking in a lot of areas.

Soon our heritage will not be enough to get new players or "head coaches" interested in joining the club.

We need to rebrand us self. Get rid of all the old players and start over with young players and communicate that United will be doing this and the goal is to be a top club again in 2030. Until then, keep a head coach that is good at coaching young players and let result be bad if they have to.

We can't continue this way...
 
Leftback99 said:
Always has been the players that are the main problem. Woeful recruitment under Ten Hag the main cause.

A problem now is that 2 of our very few good players play in the same position (Amad and Mbeumo).
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Think we are better off starting with both of them, Mbeumo on the left and Amad, who is more creative and maverick on the right. Mbeumo is fast, has solid technique and good movement but he isn't a one on one threat so he can be instructed to play a basic game on the left ie keep the width, whip in some crosses, play in the LB and move into the box for shots etc.

As to the general topic of this threat, we have a poor collection of players in our back line. Some lack the requisite physicality (Maguire - pace, Martinez - height and pace, Casemiro - pace, Dalot - brain) , some the technical ability (Dorgu, Ugarte) and some are just too young to give consistent performances.

We need a couple of midfielders (DM and press resistant CM) in the summer and another CB to partner De Ligt, who we should also be looking to upgrade on in the near future. A starting LW shouldn't be a top priority, for now. A serious club would bring a DM this winter the lay the groundwork to let Ugarte go but we aren't that.
 
The players simply aren't good enough, especially midfield and at full back. The issues were partly mitigated by Amorim's system, whereas the system Fletcher is playing, despite being one the likes of Neville and Ratcliffe have been clamouring for, is exposing our weaknesses in those areas far more.
 
If I had to sum it up in one word, I'd say hunger

- the owners do not have the hunger to win the league (for example, they failed to back our trajectory from Jose and Ole)
- Big Jim has his fingers in many pies
- the manager's get the biggest contracts and the biggest payouts when they fail
- the Director of Football is just grateful to be there
- the players are all on fat contracts and smile after a defeat before posting on Instagram and driving off in their lambos
- the youngsters want multimillionaire status before locking their place down in the team (Garna, Mainoo...)

The only hunger we have left is

1. Bruno
2. the fans (which then gets toxic)
3. the youngsters when they first come through (like Lacey today)
4. the vulture journalists and pundits hungry for views


While I definitely wanted Amorim out, mostly for his poor results and absolutely lack of in-game management, one thing he did try to do right was "only sign players who want to play for Manchester Utd" - we need to persist with that while blooding the kids and shipping out the lottery winners.

But I fear that we'll never truly reboot until there is hunger at the top and that requires new owners. The Glazers set the culture and they treat our club like a money printing machine, thus, so does everyone else below them.
 
AneRu said:
Think we are better off starting with both of them, Mbeumo on the left and Amad, who is more creative and maverick on the right. Mbeumo is fast, has solid technique and good movement but he isn't a one on one threat so he can be instructed to play a basic game on the left ie keep the width, whip in some crosses, play in the LB and move into the box for shots etc.

As to the general topic of this threat, we have a poor collection of players in our back line. Some lack the requisite physicality (Maguire - pace, Martinez - height and pace, Casemiro - pace, Dalot - brain) , some the technical ability (Dorgu, Ugarte) and some are just too young to give consistent performances.

We need a couple of midfielders (DM and press resistant CM) in the summer and another CB to partner De Ligt, who we should also be looking to upgrade on in the near future. A starting LW shouldn't be a top priority, for now. A serious club would bring a DM this winter the lay the groundwork to let Ugarte go but we aren't that.
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He's barely played on the left at all in his career though. If anything he should play up front.
 
Leftback99 said:
He's barely played on the left at all in his career though. If anything he should play up front.
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Same as Amad but the latter has a bigger ceiling and a wider skill set that could be useful when cutting in. Mbeumo, good as he is, has a limited skill set though he is very effective at what he does. Just think his skills could be better transferable to the left than Amad's, as in he can still ghost in and score, has a good cross on him and won't stop running.
 
Our club is consistently in the middle of a rebuild, the players we got this summer were better, but you cant just become a contender in one summer. you make gradual gains year on year until your squad peaks and you get the missing piece or 2.
 
We have players who's technical skill level are just below average and you can't do anything to help this even with your management change or formation.

We have failed to attract the best brains in the sport due to incompetency from the very top or do I say condoning mediocrity or prioritizing the business side of the sport more than the footballing side lands you here.

Don't blame the players, they didn't bring themselves here.
 
RedDevil [NC] said:
Our main problem is too many absolutely useless players that continually get playing time.
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This. Way too many terrible players who have to be carried by the few good players we have.

It's why the manager really makes no difference. The system is irrelevant.

The squad building has been appalling. I actually like the summer windows signings, but sacrificing the manager constantly when everyone knows we have four to six regular terrible first teamers is just silly, and feels like the board themselves defending the poor players.

Defence and midfield need a huge overhaul.
 
Well, at least this one has been answered. In the least surprising development of all time, it turns out that the players aren't good enough, regardless of the formation.

A back four under Fletcher, Solskjaer or Carrick is highly unlikely to yield better results this season than the back three under Amorim did.
 
Surely there is a happy medium between what Amorim was doing and what we did today though.

Amorim had us playing incredibly rigid football, rigid instructions on positional setup off the ball, in a shape that didn't suit many of the players

Fletch tonight had us in a shape where more players felt comfortable, but seemingly far too much freedom to roam, with players constantly vacating their positions, leaving gaping holes everywhere. The midfield two never worked as a pair holding the centre ground. Cunha was constantly vacating the left half space. The second goal was conceded with Martinez miles out of position. No coordination between the FBs in terms of one pushing, one sitting. It was ETH Chaos ball tonight.

Can we find the happy middle ground please.
 
The main current problem? It starts right at the top. When shite rolls down the hill it hits everything on its way down.
 
sammyhol said:
Surely there is a happy medium between what Amorim was doing and what we did today though.

Amorim had us playing incredibly rigid football, rigid instructions on positional setup off the ball, in a shape that didn't suit many of the players

Fletch tonight had us in a shape where more players felt comfortable, but seemingly far too much freedom to roam, with players constantly vacating their positions, leaving gaping holes everywhere. The midfield two never worked as a pair holding the centre ground. Cunha was constantly vacating the left half space. The second goal was conceded with Martinez miles out of position. No coordination between the FBs in terms of one pushing, one sitting. It was ETH Chaos ball tonight.

Can we find the happy middle ground please.
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Pretty sure the reason Amorim had them in a very rigid tactical set up was because they aren't good enough for anything else.
 
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