The main current problem, players or formation ?

The two things are connected together.
1. We do not have enough world class players to fight for the title period. The ony players who are title winning material (at least as starters) are Bruno and De Ligt.
Then we have some very good players in Amad and Mbuemo. Amad is not there yet but has the potential. Mbuemo is a vry good player but cant call him WC yet.
So If I am generous its 4 players out of the whole fecking starting eleven.
Then we have the likes of Yoro but those are for the future (if).
And we have also some good players. Problem is good is not enough. You can not win the league with only good. You need the best in their position players.
An finally we have some poor players but that's not the majority. Majority is good - which means average in EPL. That's why they look good in other leagues.

2. Tactics. Even if we take into account the point one, we should do much better than 15th and thats on Amorim. It was not the formation per se but it was about the inability to adapt based on the opposition. Playing a side much better? Go for a defensive setup and park the bus. Playing out of form relegation teams? adapt. Are they good in the air? stop hoofing the ball. Are they short and shaky? Hoop it. Adapt and play to to your players strength and we are a top 4 team (at least serious candidates). But there is no formation which can win the league with the current set of players.

TDR: It was the "formation" (isnisting on it) that we are so trash but its the player we are not challenging for the title.
 
I don’t think our core group of players are bad.
I think we have a very good group of players between De Ligt, Bruno , Casemiro, Cunha, Mount, Mbeumo, Amad, Martinez. They’re not perfect but I think that’s a group of players good enough to be top 8 minimum in the league.

Players like Gakpo, Doku, Martinelli, Trossard are not by any degree better than some of our attacking options and they play for the top clubs.

Biggest issues I see with this squad are…

1. Mentality .

There’s been far too much acceptance for too long that losing games of football is okay. We wrote off an entire half a season last year and players were excused from losing every week because “Europa league” “need pre season” “need transfer window”. The rot had already started under ETH, when getting hammered brought no consequences.
Applauding the players off the pitch when they’re getting beat 4-0 by mid table teams.

It continued last year and the board, management and fans have to take responsibility for that. There just never seems to be any internal repercussions for losing games of football at United anymore.

You could argue that there were higher standards with results under Woodward than INEOS. There is no way United are allowed to finish 8th and 15th prior to Ineos. Yet it was brushed off and an imaginary reset button pressed.


2. The bad players we have are really really bad. Like the type of players who wouldn’t shine in the championship. Dalot, Dorgu, Ugarte, Zirkzee, and the current incarnation of Mainoo. Chuck in that idiot Onana last season.
Because a lot of these guys cannot do the basics, they bring the overall down so significantly and they play far too many minutes.
 
Kayla40TS said:
Pretty sure the reason Amorim had them in a very rigid tactical set up was because they aren't good enough for anything else.
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Thats actually a pretty good point. Everything the other poster said could be explained in the way he did. But it can also be explained by players who struggle with smart positioning and/or positional indiscipline. Being more rigid would be a way to support the group. To be honest though, I don't think, rigid is something that can be said though - I mean, Amorim switched players around, this season he played with Sesko, Cunha and Mbeumo in the striker role and iirc there was even a game with Mount there (might have been preseason). Also the players behind weren't positionally rigid, Bruno joined the attacks while the AMs dropped back. Amad and Mbeumo switched positioning as well.
The only thing that was rigid was the choice of playing 3atb but even here, things changed a bit which works as an argument but it is a bit of a flawed one (if you ask me) because nobody would call out another manager for not trying a 3atb formation when he struggles defensively.

Ludens the Red said:
I don’t think our core group of players are bad.
I think we have a very good group of players between De Ligt, Bruno , Casemiro, Cunha, Mount, Mbeumo, Amad, Martinez. They’re not perfect but I think that’s a group of players good enough to be top 8 minimum in the league.

Players like Gakpo, Doku, Martinelli, Trossard are not by any degree better than some of our attacking options and they play for the top clubs.

Biggest issues I see with this squad are…

1. Mentality .

There’s been far too much acceptance for too long that losing games of football is okay. We wrote off an entire half a season last year and players were excused from losing every week because “Europa league” “need pre season” “need transfer window”. The rot had already started under ETH, when getting hammered brought no consequences.
Applauding the players off the pitch when they’re getting beat 4-0 by mid table teams.

It continued last year and the board, management and fans have to take responsibility for that. There just never seems to be any internal repercussions for losing games of football at United anymore.

You could argue that there were higher standards with results under Woodward than INEOS. There is no way United are allowed to finish 8th and 15th prior to Ineos. Yet it was brushed off and an imaginary reset button pressed.


2. The bad players we have are really really bad. Like the type of players who wouldn’t shine in the championship. Dalot, Dorgu, Ugarte, Zirkzee, and the current incarnation of Mainoo. Chuck in that idiot Onana last season.
Because a lot of these guys cannot do the basics, they bring the overall down so significantly and they play far too many minutes.
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I don't think any of that is wrong but I think it places the focus on the wrong things. Mentality is important no doubt about it, and it becomes a decisive factor at the top because at the top, the player levels get close to each other. But thats not where we are. Our players struggle with playing the ball in small spaces. The overhit passes, they are immobile, they don't challenge the keeper when they have opportunity to shoot.
Mentality is always a nice thing to say since it is so vague that nobody can for sure say its there or it isn't there. But mentality isn't creating the struggles I just listed. More intensity and urgency would be great, I'd love to see it. And it probably would change something, but it wouldnt change technical levels and game intelligence.

I am all up for mentality, experience, winners attitude, leadership, culture - lets have it all, heck, get as astract as we can. But before we do, lets make sure the fundamentals are set first, before we waste too much energy fiddling with the advanced stuff.

edit: about the bolded part - stuff like that means nothing. Stuff like that is so easy to say and it sounds nice and everybody nods, but for all the talk about standards, you have to make sure that it doesn't become some sad attempt of a flex ala "look, but in the past, we were thiiiiis good". We have to acknowledge where we are. Pick a plan how to get where we want to be. United isnt entitled to anything - if we play shit, we get 8th or even 15th. Play better, play more successful - then end results will look different. Talking about standards has no constructive element, especially the way it is used by fans so often. As additional bats to beat an individual player or manager.
 
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The problem isn’t the system or the manager. It’s the lack of quality in the squad. No setup is going to make this group look elite.

Years of awful recruitment have left us with an overpaid squad full of average to poor players who can’t be moved on. The overall level is so low that new signings often get worse after arriving. We no longer attract world-class talent, yet we still pay top prices for second-tier players because of our name and history. We’ve been a circus for years.

The quickest fix (almost impossible) would be a full clear-out and rebuild. It’s easier to name the players worth keeping than those to sell. But since that isn’t realistic, the only option is a slow rebuild: four to five signings per season, with most of them actually working. That takes time, money, and luck.

The bigger issue is the environment. Players fail here, then thrive elsewhere. That’s not a coincidence. It takes elite scouting, strong leadership, and proper football people to fix that and we don’t have them.

We’re not a serious club anymore. We’re not a big club, just a popular one. INEOS haven’t proven they can build winners, and things look worse, not better.

This is the reality now mid-table. Forget titles. Even Champions League qualification would only be for the money, not because we’d compete.

So when people argue “players vs system” like it’s an easy fix, they don’t understand how far behind we are or how long it’ll take to get back.
 
Players or we can say PROFILES of the players. Ultimately, players are the one who is playing and executing the jobs on the pitch but manager ultimately the one that responsible for the bad results. We can say that players are more valuable assets for the club than manager bar very very few top ones.

Our squad keep having wrong profile of players, why? The club and fans together cannot withstand or forget that patchy results is a certain thing when we go through a hard reset. Right now, we will still have to go through again what we went through with previous managers. The club keep baulking down on their approach half way through their idea of reset. Its a chicken or egg first issue, are they going to go all the way with their idea and plan and wait for 3 years at least to evaluate the final result of their rebuild? What are we going to do next? A project manager again and repeat the cycle after 1 1/2 season or 2? Or go with proven manager that play more pracmatic and for reaults.

I think the main thing that club keep getting wrong was that we dont have many very good technical player, by that the very good press resistant ones. I keep seeing others even the lower table ones with better press resistant player than us. Go and buy press reistant players that can beat and evade the press then formation wont be such an issues no more. Very good technical footballers can play and adapt easily the formation.
 
Kayla40TS said:
Pretty sure the reason Amorim had them in a very rigid tactical set up was because they aren't good enough for anything else.
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I'd buy that but he also seemed to insist on a formation that they weren't suited to either. Its like he wouldn't change the formation but would accept being very defensive about it.
 
Half these players are totally hopeless unless they are actually facing teams who give them space
 
Regardless of who is the manager, we need some players to move on. We have many players that are just average. We need quality, hopefully we signed 3-4 quality player and results will improve eventually regardless of the coach.
 
r0663664 said:
Regardless of who is the manager, we need some players to move on. We have many players that are just average. We need quality, hopefully we signed 3-4 quality player and results will improve eventually regardless of the coach.
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What club can we actually palm them off on?
 
Just look at the squad for yesterday - Dorgu and Yoro took too big a step up too soon. Dalot and Ugarte simply not good enough. Martinez and Mount playing on reputation alone. That's straight away six of the starting 11 yesterday.
 
We are half way transitioned to a 3 atb team, so pivoting now means we neither have the team to play either 3atb or 4 atb.

We don't have a left winger, basically only have Shaw as LB. 3 10s, 3 RWs and for the 10th year running a bang average (at best!) collection of centre mids.

It's shambolic planning by INEOS.
 
kps88 said:
Just look at the squad for yesterday - Dorgu and Yoro took too big a step up too soon. Dalot and Ugarte simply not good enough. Martinez and Mount playing on reputation alone. That's straight away six of the starting 11 yesterday.
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Yeah and lumbered with them due to wages
 
I am starting to seriously think the problem with us is the negativity from the media, ex players and fans. Players are put under stress and loses confidence when fans do not get behind them. I guess it is a chicken or egg thing and I have no solution for this. Our ex player like Neville for example is really toxic.
 
Nas-JR said:
We are half way transitioned to a 3 atb team, so pivoting now means we neither have the team to play either 3atb or 4 atb.

We don't have a left winger, basically only have Shaw as LB. 3 10s, 3 RWs and for the 10th year running a bang average (at best!) collection of centre mids.

It's shambolic planning by INEOS.
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Will you just shut up about Amorim sacking, sake
 
moodyred said:
I am starting to seriously think the problem with us is the negativity from the media, ex players and fans. Players are put under stress and loses confidence when fans do not get behind them. I guess it is a chicken or egg thing and I have no solution for this. Our ex player like Neville for example is really toxic.
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Oh those poor precious little darlings, toughen up
 
Problem was always both.

Amorim not being good enough was generally accepted, but people continued to overrate this squad. I'm glad more and more people are realising that this squad leaves a lot to be desired.

People act like we've improved upon the squad Ole inherited from José. We haven't. We've regressed in nearly every position except RW (Amad), RB (Mazraoui) and maybe one CB as Smalling was better than all of our current options. Bruno gets in, too, but the midfield balance as a whole was better back then, and that wasn't good enough either.
 
Yagami said:
Problem was always both.

Amorim not being good enough was generally accepted, but people continued to overrate this squad. I'm glad more and more people are realising that this squad leaves a lot to be desired.

People act like we've improved upon the squad Ole inherited from José. We haven't. We've regressed in nearly every position except RW (Amad), RB (Mazraoui) and maybe one CB as Smalling was better than all of our current options. Bruno gets in, too, but the midfield balance as a whole was better back then, and that wasn't good enough either.
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Midfield has been garbage since before Fergie left and the fact it's still not been addressed is diabolical. Think these recent games has shown that defence is probably just as big problem too but sadly can't fix both due to finances
 
Nas-JR said:
We are half way transitioned to a 3 atb team, so pivoting now means we neither have the team to play either 3atb or 4 atb.

We don't have a left winger, basically only have Shaw as LB. 3 10s, 3 RWs and for the 10th year running a bang average (at best!) collection of centre mids.

It's shambolic planning by INEOS.
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In spite of that some will argue a waste od space Ugarte is on the verge of breakthrough. The biggest problem is we don't have any real quality and depth in midfield. Bruno should play as a 10 and Casemiro at this stage of his career cannot carry the whole midfield himself. Outside of that we have Mount that is also a 10, Mainoo that is also mostly suited to playing as a 10 and Ugarte that is an actual midfielder the problem is that he is not good enough. And then we bought another 10 in Cunha. Mbeumo as a RW option in spite of Amad progression and a young striker in Sesko that would also need help as we actually don't have any other specialist striker in the squad. Let that sink in. Manchester United in 2026 after spending millions and millions of dollars doesn't have a midfield and has one actual striker on the squad (Zirkzee is a 10 at best, Obi not suited to this level).
 
SonOfFergie said:
In spite of that some will argue a waste od space Ugarte is on the verge of breakthrough. The biggest problem is we don't have any real quality and depth in midfield. Bruno should play as a 10 and Casemiro at this stage of his career cannot carry the whole midfield himself. Outside of that we have Mount that is also a 10, Mainoo that is also mostly suited to playing as a 10 and Ugarte that is an actual midfielder the problem is that he is not good enough. And then we bought another 10 in Cunha. Mbeumo as a RW option in spite of Amad progression and a young striker in Sesko that would also need help as we actually don't have any other specialist striker in the squad. Let that sink in. Manchester United in 2026 after spending millions and millions of dollars doesn't have a midfield and has one actual striker on the squad (Zirkzee is a 10 at best, Obi not suited to this level).
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Yeah the striker depth truly staggeringly bad
 
croadyman said:
Midfield has been garbage since before Fergie left and the fact it's still not been addressed is diabolical. Think these recent games has shown that defence is probably just as big problem too but sadly can't fix both due to finances
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Defence starts to become a problem when you are constantly under the pressure doe to non existing midfield. Looking at other areas of the pitch defense it the least of our worries.
 
croadyman said:
Midfield has been garbage since before Fergie left and the fact it's still not been addressed is diabolical. Think these recent games has shown that defence is probably just as big problem too but sadly can't fix both due to finances
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I could at least understand that Fergie probably put too much faith in Anderson and Fletcher returning to fitness and being able to play consistently. It didn't work out but they were both very talented midfielders so, if it had, them two + Carrick would've been fine. I agree we still should've invested, but I can at least see why he was reluctant to do so. Though the Kagawa signing was a step at revitalising the midfield as he was going to be our 10 behind Rooney before RvP became available. So you could see he was starting to address the issue.

Since then our handling of midfield has been, as you say, diabolical. Well, the handling of nearly the entire club has been diabolical, really.
 
Way too many players lacks quality. How many would walk into Arsenal, Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Aston Villa and demand a starting spot.? Not a lot..
 
davidmichael said:
Simple question as I can’t work out which seems to be the main problem right now between the players or the system that Amorim is hell bent on implementing in his 5-2-3/3-4-3 ?

The thing I’m most annoyed about is that when Ineos were coming in they said that they’d install a ‘best in class’ ‘footballing structure’ that would identify a style and tactical approach and the head coach would coach the squad in said style.

We’ve gone from 4-2-3-1 under Ole to 4-1-4-1 under ETH to 5-2-3/3-4-3 under Amorim and no set style or tactical approach put in place by our supposed footballing structure, even RVN during his brief run played a different style to ETH and Amorim.

I get Amorim hasn’t spent any money to bring in players he’d like but already he’s showing a serious amount of stubbornness in playing certain players in positions that they can’t play or players in different positions each week and refuses to change the tactics even when like today they weren’t working.

Brighton knew we would play 2 men in midfield so outnumbered us playing 3 men in midfield although Baleba could have played on his own and dominate our midfield, we have zero width as the two behind the striker are both 10’s and the wing backs are full backs so offer nothing offensively.

On the flip side though it’s clear that a lot of the players are simply not good enough and when the ones that are passable are off form the difference in quality is so big that subs hurt us more than helping us a lot of the time.

When you look at the core group that are passable to good enough in Maguire, Yoro, De Ligt, Martinez, Mazraoui, Mainoo, Ugarte, Fernandes and Diallo you see that’s half of a match day squad yet we’ve spent over half a billion in the last few years on recruitment.

Is it the players that are making us look so bad ? Is it the formation that Amorim is hell bent on installing which in his own words he will “play until the very end” ? I know Amorim said it would get worse before it gets better but it seems to be getting worse every game outside of the game raisers like Liverpool, Arsenal or City and if it continues getting worse you wonder if Amorim will even be properly back in the summer.
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The Glazers + Ineos Prat Duo
 
I would argue it’s a confidence/ mentality problem.

We have huge issues in the way we play.
We do not play like it means anything, we are too safe and too casual at the same time. It feels like we have had a long term coach that has allowed the players to feel like a draw is a good result.

We switch off at least twice a game and that results in at least one or two goals.

Then we pass around create half chances but don’t have the confidence or urgency to take them. I think we have some terrific players and a lot of teams would rightly be envious of our squad.

How many teams in the PL would gladly take Mbeumo, De Ligt, Amad, Bruno, Cuhna off our hands. They might not all be world class players but they are high standard premier league level at least. I don’t feel there’s any excuses left.
 
There is no formation that can hide the deficiencies of 11 players.
 
Its not the formation. I think we'll have more joy with this formation than the alternatives.
 
The main problem for the most part is the day to day coaching. This has been an issue since Moyes. Whatever we do in training appears to just not have any impact on matchday.

There have been brief periods. Under Mourinho in 2017, with Ole in the full lock down season and in 2023 before the 7-0 under Ten Hag where we've looked a well coached side but apart from that, it's not been great in this regard. Even under "systems focused" type managers, it's usually been individual moments of brilliance that has won us games.

Like I've said in another thread, half of our first team squad are, at the very least, decent players that (with good coaching anyway) have the makings of a decent to good Premier League side.

We were awful yesterday but I can't imagine it's an easy environment to play in at the moment. Until we get a top manager in, it's not going to get consistently better and our players will continue to get worse.
 
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People forget that we we have been playing 5-3-2 for 18 months, then switched manager, switch system and played two games in under a week. How are there going to be any ‘unlearning’ in the training field??

40 games this season my be a blessing in disguise….
 
I posted this yesterday in the match day thread as well. With the exception of Bruno, I don’t think any of the players in our team yesterday would look out if place in a Brighton, or a Bournemouth, or a Fulham side.

Still not acceptable to lose so pathetically, but our player material is largely midtable with the players we have out.
 
I really don’t think players should find “learning” 4 atb, to challenging, ffs. It’s what we’re all brought up on. We have 4x cbs who should actually find it easier and Shaw has playback all his life, even though he has a tendency to wander into lcb territory for a breather. Maz has the intelligence to plat at least 2x roles without trying. Which, of course, brings us to mf. Just sign 2x that are at least competent. Shouldn’t be difficult if we’re not spending in January and selling at least a couple of players. A bit concerned about Cunha - really blows hot and cold but we shouldn’t be too far away upfront with a tweak or two and everyone (more or less) available. Easy really. fecking should be.
 
It's a combination of players, coaches and hierarchy in my opinion.

The club is absolutely toxic from the glazers down, always has been. Coaches cannot shield the players from that. 24/7 media obsessed with united. It's the biggest driver of clicks and content and therefore money.

It takes a while to turn the ship around. Ineos recruitment has been pretty good, but they cant just disappear players on contracts so we have to let those run out. It's not an instant fix even for the most gifted of football administrators. Give it some time and then judge, in my opinion.

Sort the midfield out this summer (as is clearly the plan) and then see where the squad is next season.

The real issue as I see it is lack of legal in the midfield. Not quality, just legs. That can be address this window. LW seems a little light but don't tell me amad or mbeumo can't do a decent job there.

But I agree there are only a few 'top 4' players but arguably no fewer than villa, but this isn't football manager, there are constraints in the real world and getting rid of some of the bad actors was a good move.
 
Wrong mentality across the board. We shit ourselves under pressure and have for years. When we go down a goal our heads go down or we turn into headless chickens. There’s no tactics in terms of passage of play. Everyone seems to be doing their own thing. In short we don’t know how to win. I dont see any belief in this squad. That all comes from the manager and we have not had a good one for a long time.
 
If we want a head coach who is strictly a vibes man there is ole.

Wouldn't be the worst option tbh.

The next permanent head coach question is a difficult one. All the prime candidates seem flawed in one way or the other.

If it was me in charge (imagine....!) I'd have Silva as favourite but would obviously run a proper process and see who comes out top.
 
Years of nothing signings, not all but alot. Players who are lacking in key areas.

You watch the games and theres the same pattern when in possession, the same players who can't make a creative pass 80% of the time, same miscontrols of the ball in good transitional attacking moments. Must of counted 4 or 5 misplaced passes or bad first touches in the space of 5 minutes, from the same players who do it week in week out.

Dorgu, Dalot, Ugarte, Casemiro, Zirkzee, Shaw

Really do hinder us in possession, all now very average and just not good enough.

That and defensively they all take it turns to either not close down, not communicate and switch who they are marking, or don't track runners.

Ugarte again for Brightons second goal just doesn't go with his man, how many times do we see this from different players

Those listed need replacing asap, and let's not sign projects as replacements, this club needs top quality replacements now, or the cycle continues.
 
Kayla40TS said:
Pretty sure the reason Amorim had them in a very rigid tactical set up was because they aren't good enough for anything else.
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No, that's the way he sets up his teams. It was reported before he came here that he has rigid roles, favours very few positional rotations within his 3422 and expects them to be good at 1v1s all over the pitch.
 
IMO, the lack of urgency was the problem yesterday, combined with Fletcher's inexperience, Mainoo lacking match fitness & the lack of quality on the bench. We play like we've been playing 2 games a week for the past many months, that's been an issue under several managers.

Also, whoever comes in, please insist on selling Zirkzee. He's such a waste of space ffs!
 
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Players. But I think it's a problem with mentality moreso than ability.

While we do have problems with ability too, there are teams with less ability that are able to get more from the players they have. It's not bad luck that we're consistently outfought, outworked and outplayed by teams that, despite 'lesser' players, look more cohesive than us.
 
Many fans on here told me we switch to a back 4 and we will easily start winning games...

Instead what happened? We get outpassed and cut through easily. shock.

The one thing in in this formation is lack of defensive ability, how often in the last 2 games have attackers been able to receive the ball outside our box? The Burnley goal, Welbeck goal...

How often do we let players run in behind our defence? Burnley and Brighton goal.

Its not hard to score against us because this team is so easy to play against... most times our defensive players are never goal side.
 
romufc said:
Many fans on here told me we switch to a back 4 and we will easily start winning games...

Instead what happened? We get outpassed and cut through easily. shock.

The one thing in in this formation is lack of defensive ability, how often in the last 2 games have attackers been able to receive the ball outside our box? The Burnley goal, Welbeck goal...

How often do we let players run in behind our defence? Burnley and Brighton goal.

Its not hard to score against us because this team is so easy to play against... most times our defensive players are never goal side.
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Do you think it might be down to the disruption of the manager being sacked, players missing and players out of form as well?
 
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