Do you think it might be down to the disruption of the manager being sacked, players missing and players out of form as well?
Unfortunately, they are not as tough as they were as in the past.Oh those poor precious little darlings, toughen up
Not sure if you read my whole post because I do allude to the fact our quality of player within our lesser players is a big problem.Thats actually a pretty good point. Everything the other poster said could be explained in the way he did. But it can also be explained by players who struggle with smart positioning and/or positional indiscipline. Being more rigid would be a way to support the group. To be honest though, I don't think, rigid is something that can be said though - I mean, Amorim switched players around, this season he played with Sesko, Cunha and Mbeumo in the striker role and iirc there was even a game with Mount there (might have been preseason). Also the players behind weren't positionally rigid, Bruno joined the attacks while the AMs dropped back. Amad and Mbeumo switched positioning as well.
The only thing that was rigid was the choice of playing 3atb but even here, things changed a bit which works as an argument but it is a bit of a flawed one (if you ask me) because nobody would call out another manager for not trying a 3atb formation when he struggles defensively.
I don't think any of that is wrong but I think it places the focus on the wrong things. Mentality is important no doubt about it, and it becomes a decisive factor at the top because at the top, the player levels get close to each other. But thats not where we are. Our players struggle with playing the ball in small spaces. The overhit passes, they are immobile, they don't challenge the keeper when they have opportunity to shoot.
Mentality is always a nice thing to say since it is so vague that nobody can for sure say its there or it isn't there. But mentality isn't creating the struggles I just listed. More intensity and urgency would be great, I'd love to see it. And it probably would change something, but it wouldnt change technical levels and game intelligence.
I am all up for mentality, experience, winners attitude, leadership, culture - lets have it all, heck, get as astract as we can. But before we do, lets make sure the fundamentals are set first, before we waste too much energy fiddling with the advanced stuff.
edit: about the bolded part - stuff like that means nothing. Stuff like that is so easy to say and it sounds nice and everybody nods, but for all the talk about standards, you have to make sure that it doesn't become some sad attempt of a flex ala "look, but in the past, we were thiiiiis good". We have to acknowledge where we are. Pick a plan how to get where we want to be. United isnt entitled to anything - if we play shit, we get 8th or even 15th. Play better, play more successful - then end results will look different. Talking about standards has no constructive element, especially the way it is used by fans so often. As additional bats to beat an individual player or manager.
did these teams all have better players ?Nope. We have kept 2 clean sheets this season.
I dont watch games thinking.. the opponent wont score....
I watch alot of football and even when watching other clubs play against Burnley.... they dont create as many good chances as they did against us.
I just dont think we have ever got our team structure right..
I would argue that this midfield is nowhere near a good enough base to build from.Not sure if you read my whole post because I do allude to the fact our quality of player within our lesser players is a big problem.
Saying that I think you look around the league and the teams near us, you will see teams with players who have inferior technical abilities, inferior physical abilities to ours.
Remove City, Liverpool and Arsenal from the equation and all those deficiencies you mention are apparent in other squads. Let’s not sit here pretending United have one of the worse squads in the league as so many like to do.
As I said, between De Ligt, Martinez, Casemiro, Bruno, Mount, Amad, Cunha, Mbeumo, Shaw there is a good enough base.
Some of these players excel in playing in tight spaces, finding passes and testing the goal keeper. It is insincere to suggest otherwise. We do have some really bad players in that regard and again it’s mentioned in my initial post. Their bottom level is so bad that it obviously affects the overall quality.
Saying that though this is where our elite players have to carry us through games and get those wins.
Us not beating Wolves, Bournemouth, Everton, West Ham, Burnley was a lot down to mentality. We don’t want to win enough and that to me is clear. That mentality for me has been present for a while and needs serious shifting.
As for the bolded, it absolutely does mean something mentioning standards. Finishing 8th and 15th was entirely unacceptable and it’s not being “entitled”.
Standards is through the whole club. Again have a re read I clearly don’t just state players and managers and in fact board and the fanbase have had a significant part to play in those standards dropping. And im not talking about yesteryear or winning titles.
Any organisation suffers when standards are dropped, it’s not just a buzzword.
Pre Ineos, failing to qualify for the CL was deemed failure. Managers who failed or appeared to be failing to do this were replaced, there was an inquest.
We’ve now reached the point where finishing 8th and 15th isn’t met with repercussions. We should be challenging for a CL spot every season. Again it’s not entitlement, it’s a standard and goal to set season upon season. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most businesses and football clubs run in this way.
Losing games repeatedly being passed off as ‘learning curve’ or as ‘distractions from European games’. And you think this type of thinking isn’t going to have a knock on effect on the players? You don’t think they may drop a level? You don’t think the culture might suffer?
The whole Amorim “suffering thing”. I mean what on earth was that.
You’re brought into a football club to improve results. It isn’t acceptable to lose games every week and say well I told you so.
Our match going fanbase (and I hate criticising them) but they are far too accepting. Applauding the team off after numerous drubbings, belting out Amorims name. Clubs like Forest, Spurs and West Ham seem to have fans that expect more of their club than we do. I feel like our fans think they shouldn’t complain because they were spoilt with success for many years but that shouldn’t be the case.
You say we have to acknowledge where we are. Yeah where we are is unacceptable, and is a result of a decline in standards:
Excusing loss after loss, Managers kept on too long, inferior players kept at the club too long. I mean what the feck is Diogo Dalot still doing at this football club honestly?
Less open midfield I would bet.did these teams all have better players ?
NopeDo you think it might be down to the disruption of the manager being sacked, players missing and players out of form as well?
did these teams all have better players ?
You did so I’m asking if all these teams had better players than us?Did you watch the football games?
So it’s just the players aren’t good? Despite being better when playing for other teams ?Nope
Probably but that’s not all on the playersLess open midfield I would bet.
It is for a team just to challenge for CL qualification. Not expecting it to be winning titles.I would argue that this midfield is nowhere near a good enough base to build from.
One of those players is good in tight spaces, the rest struggle with it.
You did so I’m asking if all these teams had better players than us?
Nah, the midfield is bottom half quality at the moment.It is for a team just to challenge for CL qualification. Not expecting it to be winning titles.
I don’t think the teams we are neck and neck with this season have complete midfields either. I do however know that a fair few of them do not have players like Casemiro and Bruno Fernandes in their midfield.
I see your point. I would agree even for the most part if there weren't the midfield, mate. The midfield is less functional than most midfields and it seems, on top of it, the meaning it has on the team overall has been misunderstood as well by the club.Not sure if you read my whole post because I do allude to the fact our quality of player within our lesser players is a big problem.
Saying that I think you look around the league and the teams near us, you will see teams with players who have inferior technical abilities, inferior physical abilities to ours.
Remove City, Liverpool and Arsenal from the equation and all those deficiencies you mention are apparent in other squads. Let’s not sit here pretending United have one of the worse squads in the league as so many like to do.
I would say all of those are good players, some may be more. But the other teams in the league have good players as well. Those players aren't so good, that they will just force things.It might be a good base, but lets face it - you listed the highlights of our team (even if I wouldn't have included some of them) and that certainly has consequences.As I said, between De Ligt, Martinez, Casemiro, Bruno, Mount, Amad, Cunha, Mbeumo, Shaw there is a good enough base.
I wouldn't say mentality isn't a factor in that but I don't think, it should be the first thing to adress. Mentality is difficult to quantify at the end of the day and while i totally agree, lack of intensity is a serious issue, it is just one of many of them. And one that makes a great "excuse" if you will for not adressing the elephant in the room - the abilities and physical attributes of the players and therefor the recruitment. I am sure, you see that as an issue as well so this isn't me trying to act as if you think, it is all solely down to mentality. But you choose to highlight it.Us not beating Wolves, Bournemouth, Everton, West Ham, Burnley was a lot down to mentality. We don’t want to win enough and that to me is clear. That mentality for me has been present for a while and needs serious shifting.
I don't think for a second, that those results weren't seen as failures at all. I think, what you are alluding to is the reaction, or its inexistence, that you thought would be the right thing to do. Like "sack him earlier". Thats all good and well but as important as an "urge to excellence" is, it can have you stifled, box yourself in when it comes to solutions and lose sight of the future. We can complain for months and years about "where United should be" but where we are is depending on the decisions we take. And I am sure, the more tangible things to do is making sure that recruitment works. If there is time to work on mentality on top, great. But it shouldn't be the center of attention as long as we have so obvious flaws when it comes to functionality of the team. For all your "should" and "has to" we have to acknowledge that there are long term effects and 10 years of bad decisions lead to places that you just can't force your way out of in a year or two. We are a mediocre team right now, all things considered. We might have the potential to be a good team but we definitely aren't there yet. The aim is, I am sure we agree, is returning back to the top but not for a short stint for in a sustainable way. I think, you can't make that step in one go, you have to be a good team first before you can be an awesome one. And I think, thats one thing, that really is an issue, when decisions that are made to reach temporary targets are scrutinized because they "wouldn't be made when we were successful".Pre Ineos, failing to qualify for the CL was deemed failure. Managers who failed or appeared to be failing to do this were replaced, there was an inquest.
We’ve now reached the point where finishing 8th and 15th isn’t met with repercussions. We should be challenging for a CL spot every season. Again it’s not entitlement, it’s a standard and goal to set season upon season. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most businesses and football clubs run in this way.
It was an honest outlook. Might not have been as aspiring as you want it to be but nevertheless. It was Amorims version of what ETH called the process. And Ole had his version of it as well. I agree that some of the words Amorim choose to say weren't ideal when it comes to confidence but saying that rectifying 10 years of bad decisions won't come without pain isn't an issue in itself and if anybody still thinks that there are shortcuts, then its to a degree delusional. Thats not me saying that Amorim had us on the shortest route to success, he probably wasn't the one who would get us to promised land but what if such a figure doesn't exist? What if there are multiple people needed to force change?The whole Amorim “suffering thing”. I mean what on earth was that.
Yeah, you can have that stance but to me, thats just you drumming on "we were so much better at some point in the past". We were, you are right. But we won't get back there just by walking around thinking about where we were.You say we have to acknowledge where we are. Yeah where we are is unacceptable, and is a result of a decline in standards:
Fair standpoint, I disagree. I don't think, you'll find many midfields that field two players with physical disadvantages together. None of them is an outright bad player and a good team will be able to find a way to incorporate them into a functional team. But we are placing them next to each other. It feels as if you place your verdict more on their names and a few bits and pieces of their achievements but not on what they are capable of doing today.I don’t think the teams we are neck and neck with this season have complete midfields either. I do however know that a fair few of them do not have players like Casemiro and Bruno Fernandes in their midfield.
It is absolutely not bottom half at all. Brentford, Fulham, Sunderland are all top half and none of them have better midfields than us. It’s funny you mention those two clubs. This is a classic case of overhyping another clubs players whilst running down your own because Newcastle and Liverpool fans both feel their midfields are inefficient.Nah, the midfield is bottom half quality at the moment.
Chelsea have Caicedo, Fernandes and Palmer as a three. Newcastle Guimares, Tonali and Joelinton. Liverpool Mcallister, Gravenberch, Szobozlai. We are not comparable.
We are in the CL hunt due to our attackers. I like Bruno in the deeper role, but for various reasons the others are shoddy. This is probably the biggest reason for the variance in our results at the moment.
Absolutely is not, not close.It is for a team just to challenge for CL qualification. Not expecting it to be winning titles.
I don’t think the teams we are neck and neck with this season have complete midfields either. I do however know that a fair few of them do not have players like Casemiro and Bruno Fernandes in their midfield.
I am not sure how it is not though.Probably but that’s not all on the players
You can keep saying that but doesn’t change the reality. Casemiro and Bruno were part of a three man midfield which qualified for the CL with ease in 22/23.Absolutely is not, not close.
Casemiro can't run after 45 minutes.It is absolutely not bottom half at all. Brentford, Fulham, Sunderland are all top half and none of them have better midfields than us. It’s funny you mention those two clubs. This is a classic case of overhyping another clubs players whilst running down your own because Newcastle and Liverpool fans both feel their midfields are inefficient.
Newcastle don’t have an attacking midfielder. Or anyone capable of having that guile and goalscoring ability in the final third. Joelinton must be the most overated player in the league.
Liverpool fans have been bemoaning not replacing Fabinho for a few years now. They bemoaned not having a ten and then signed Wirtz who has struggled.
Enzo Fernandes isn’t all that. Again, Chelsea fans have been complaining about his performances. Caicedo is a great ball winning player but they have nobody capable of dictating play and slowing the game down.
Theres no world that exists where man united are the only club with deficiencies in midfield.
Could we improve and sign a better central midfield player? Absolutely. But we’ve basically had two managers who have set us up terribly in that area thus exposing it and making it look worse than it is.
People seem to forget Casemiro Eriksen Bruno excelled as a midfield in ETH’s first season here because the set up was good and catered to getting the best out of their abilities whilst not exposing their weaknesses. He then threw that out the window the following season.
That was 3 years ago, Case does not have the legs and looks ready for retirement, and we are missing our 3rd who did most of the running.You can keep saying that but doesn’t change the reality. Casemiro and Bruno were part of a three man midfield which qualified for the CL with ease in 22/23.
Bruno was part of a midfield with Fred/Mctominay which qualified for the CL twice under Ole Gunnar Solskaer: Casemiro has been a better player for Man United than Fred. Casemiros best performance in that specific role have also been better than Mctominays when used in the same role.
But this is exactly what is meant by bad managers making a team look bad.ETH and Amorim now have everyone thinking. We have a relegation level midfield. Ignoring the fact in Casemiro and Bruno we have two midfield players who have excelled in their respective roles through their career.
What do you think would happen if Emery decided to tomorrow to play Onana and Rogers as a midfield two ?
What would happen if Rosenior decided to play Caicedo and Palmer as a midfield two.
Casemiro spent the first half of 23/24 and the first half of this season doing a two person job. I’m not surprised he can’t run after 45 minutes.Casemiro can't run after 45 minutes.
Mainoo can't run after 50 minutes and can't pass further than five yards.
Ugarte can't pass.
Chelsea, Liverpool and Newcastle have much better options than us. If we had Tonali and Guimares I'd expect us to be where Villa are at least. It's a massive problem for us defensively and going forward.
Easy to say now but we all know how that Mcfred debate went on here. We also know that after the end of the season in 23/24 nobody on here would be slating Mainoo the way he gets slated now. And if you asked after that cup final who’d you rather sell Mctominay or Mainoo I think we know the answer to that.I suspect we all know who'd come off best in a McFred vs Mainoo/Ugarte midfield.
Then set us up tactically so he doesn’t get exposed and doesn’t have to do all that running.That was 3 years ago, Case does not have the legs and looks ready for retirement, and we are missing our 3rd who did most of the running.
We do not have the players, who else can do it instead? Case cannot even do 90 minutes. We are invisible in midfield.Casemiro spent the first half of 23/24 and the first half of this season doing a two person job. I’m not surprised he can’t run after 45 minutes.
Their midfields are better but it isn’t by a landslide. Certainly not Newcastles and Chelsea’s and those clubs fans still see their midfields as imperfect so it’s kinda weird how United fans alternatively think it’s complete. Despite not watching those players anywhere near as much. Maybe the truth is in the middle ?
Easy to say now but we all know how that Mcfred debate went on here. We also know that after the end of the season in 23/24 nobody on here would be slating Mainoo the way he gets slated now. And if you asked after that cup final who’d you rather sell Mctominay or Mainoo I think we know the answer to that.
Then set us up tactically so he doesn’t get exposed and doesn’t have to do all that running.
Bruno and Casemiro are clear hits. The rest range from abysmal to whatever is worse than abysmal. The money spent, too, makes you seriously wonder what fecking clowns are in charge of recruitment. You could get a better list of players, with that money, by simply playing FIFA or something.Formation or not, out current struggles all boil down to our inability to sign a midfielder that is competent enough to be a regular starter for a team that expects to contend in the PL every year. I mean just look at our signings in these positions and how absolutely terrible they have all been.
- Fred
- Bruno Fernandes
- Donny van de Beek
- Eriksen
- Casemiro
- Mason Mount
- Manuel Ugarte
Three of them are CAM, one of them was a 30 year old Casemiro. Hell, outside of Bruno, Fred is the arguably the biggest hit in this list and that is sad. Until we are able to get midfielders that can control the ball and provide some spine for this team, we will continue on this same path.
It is absolutely not bottom half at all. Brentford, Fulham, Sunderland are all top half and none of them have better midfields than us. It’s funny you mention those two clubs. This is a classic case of overhyping another clubs players whilst running down your own because Newcastle and Liverpool fans both feel their midfields are inefficient.
Newcastle don’t have an attacking midfielder. Or anyone capable of having that guile and goalscoring ability in the final third. Joelinton must be the most overated player in the league.
Liverpool fans have been bemoaning not replacing Fabinho for a few years now. They bemoaned not having a ten and then signed Wirtz who has struggled.
Enzo Fernandes isn’t all that. Again, Chelsea fans have been complaining about his performances. Caicedo is a great ball winning player but they have nobody capable of dictating play and slowing the game down.
Theres no world that exists where man united are the only club with deficiencies in midfield.
Could we improve and sign a better central midfield player? Absolutely. But we’ve basically had two managers who have set us up terribly in that area thus exposing it and making it look worse than it is.
People seem to forget Casemiro Eriksen Bruno excelled as a midfield in ETH’s first season here because the set up was good and catered to getting the best out of their abilities whilst not exposing their weaknesses. He then threw that out the window the following season.
Casemiro is not a hit for me based on what kind of money he costed us all in all. Eriksen was decent overall. But I agree our transfer politics when it comes to midfielders is absolutely trash.Bruno and Casemiro are clear hits. The rest range from abysmal to whatever is worse than abysmal. The money spent, too, makes you seriously wonder what fecking clowns are in charge of recruitment. You could get a better list of players, with that money, by simply playing FIFA or something.
Yup, if Chelsea and Newcastle had such all conquering midfields they wouldn’t be sitting level and on less points with us.You'll get some pushback (already have) on here, but the very nature of the league table this season, apart from the two more settled sides that lead the race, validates your argument.
I was also pro-Amorim when he arrived. After seeing that the plan was to field Case-Bruno in the midfield and rely solely on transitions and individual talent, though, i changed my mind.
The comparisons with the "smaller" clubs are always tricky, especially when you want to support a narrative on either side of the divide between players/managers. The spaces in which they have to do well and win their battles, while maintaining a semblance of compactness, are much smaller. It's relatively easier for the manager to create a cohesive unit and, if he does, it's easier for the players to look better and pass the eye test. It's something that Amorim alluded to at some point (when asked about Glasner, i believe). About that, he had a good point. It's one thing to manage the spaces in your third and hit on the counter with a "less than ideal" squad, than it is to try and play expansive football. Which is the goal here at OT.
