The main current problem, players or formation ?

[NotoriousISSY]

I always say midfield is my primary issue with this team - and it’s not the first time it’s been neglected.

Between signing Anderson in 2007 and Fellaini in 2013, we relied on the consistency of Fletcher and Carrick, sprinkled with the raw ability and experience of Scholes and Giggs for the most part.

Then we signed a bunch of midfielders with incredibly different profiles in Herrera, Blind, BFS, Schneiderlin, Pogba, Matic, Fred, most people expected DVB to be a no8, Eriksen, Casemiro, Amrabat and Ugarte.

Why is that list clearly a massive problem? Michael Carrick was our second best midfielder in his last season. Bruno is our best central midfielder today, and he isn’t even a central midfielder.

For a club that has had the likes of Roy Keane, Paul Ince, Bryan Robson, Paul Scholes and Michael Carrick in the last 40 years to now be relying on a legless Casemiro and a low IQ player like Ugarte to set its tempo and control games? It shows where we are and why we’re there. We have other issues, but the middle of the park exposes those issues more than those issues expose them.

 

[NZT-One]

That was 3 years ago, Case does not have the legs and looks ready for retirement, and we are missing our 3rd who did most of the running.

Wondered why the other poster didn't brought up the CL titles that Casemiro had as well.

Then set us up tactically so he doesn’t get exposed and doesn’t have to do all that running.

And how do you do that? With Ugarte?

I never would have let Mctominay leave to be honest. Always rated him highly as starter or squad player or both and it's no surprise to me that he's gone on to be voted best player in Serie A (deserving)

Yeah, he was clearly voted because he was such an outstanding midfield magician.

I disagree. If we play a flat back four then there’s much less expectation on wide defenders to be as creative as they needed to be under Amorim. Which gives us plenty of options. Plus you could make a very good argument that playing Amad at wing back was a waste of his attacking talents and made us vulnerable defensively on his flank.

And who would provide width then? The wingers, Cunha and Mbuemo?

The team has developed some 343 habits that need to be killed and go back to natural 433/4231 instincts. Not a huge deal, but obviously will happen in the first week of a change

Thats definitely creative

Bad finishing - why do Dorgu and Dalot get on the end of so many goal scoring chances? Why are we asking them to be so creative? It ties into point 3 as we don't have enough wingers to take that burden themselves, and point 1 that we were playing with wing backs which was always a dumb idea with our group

Most teams have wide players in good positions. But for a few years now, that aren't often what you call wingers anymore. Fullbacks providing width is more or less the default now. And so are often the ones finding themselves in space. And getting on the end of stuff and "asking them to be creative" doesn't seem to work together.

This is all just standard shit. We have 17 games left, 1 game per week, and absolutely can get top 5 (though it'll be tough as we wasted our easiest run of fixtures this season). But we need to fix the above first. We essentially need someone to come in and do what Ole did for his first 2 years here. Get the morale up, get their belief back, play to their strengths, and stabilize the club. Then once we are a bit calmer with everything, look to improve more and how we can shoot beyond the top 4/5 level.

Feels a bit as if you could have saved yourself the effort and only said that you want Ole.

 

[Roboc7]

Putting aside the owners, who have rinsed the club, how many current man utd first team players would you keep?

7 or 8 maybe ...

We have so many players who are too raw, substandard, stinking the place out, massively overrated or injury prone.

The squad depth is poor and we lack players in key positions. Some of these players starting each week wouldnt get in most premiership teams...and it is so evident.

The quality of our squad is what we have seen throughout the season, we are one of the pack would could finish 5th to 15th. If you were picking the best 3 or 4 best players in each we wouldn’t have many that would be in the debate. We also don’t have in their prime world class players, in the past we had players like RVP, Ronaldo, Rooney who could paper over cracks.

The top sides would have most of their starters in the top 3 or 4 in each position or not far off and until we get more of our players reaching that kind of level either via new signings or some of the younger players improving significantly we are going to have problems elevating ourselves above the other teams.

I don’t know if we have anyone who would definitely get in Arsenal or City’s starting eleven and that shows how far behind we are.

 

[pelterz]

T

I would argue that this midfield is nowhere near a good enough base to build from.

One of those players is good in tight spaces, the rest struggle with it.

The squad feels like a jigsaw made up of spare pieces. We’ve so many weaknesses nearly half our first team can just about get through one half if they don’t push to hard is a massive obstruction makes it easy to overrun us, most of the rest are either very young prospects or injury prone making consistency a big issue.
It’s unpopular but believe we should have kept Amorim at least till the end of the season as much for stability as anything else and spent the Semenyo money on a quality midfielder + lwb (maybe). Those two decisions have seriously harmed our prospects this season. You can say what you want about how we shouldn’t be drawing with wolves etc., even when we are thumping teams other top teams struggle against (never gets mentioned)but we were joint 5th after playing the same as everyone else, it really wasn’t a big enough issue in terms of the season for the fans to demand a Molotov cocktail.

 

[Kayla40TS]

No, that's the way he sets up his teams. It was reported before he came here that he has rigid roles, favours very few positional rotations within his 3422 and expects them to be good at 1v1s all over the pitch.

No, it is the way he set up his United team. It wasn't the way he set up at Sporting. Not after he'd had time with the squad. I'd love to be proven wrong though, so if you want to link some of these reports, I'd love to read them.

 

[Kayla40TS]

I'd buy that but he also seemed to insist on a formation that they weren't suited to either. Its like he wouldn't change the formation but would accept being very defensive about it.

Well, I'd argue they aren't suited to 4 at the back with two holding midfielders, either. As we've seen the last two matches. Starts to sound like maybe the players just aren't that good, doesn't it?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

No, it is the way he set up his United team. It wasn't the way he set up at Sporting. Not after he'd had time with the squad. I'd love to be proven wrong though, so if you want to link some of these reports, I'd love to read them.

The Coach Voice is one i remember, saying that the positional rotations were limited to the front three and everyone else had rigid zones they should stick to.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

The players are the biggest issue that's for sure. Let's look at the game on Saturday.

Lammens did well, a good signing (although he nearly gave away a goal welback but that's a one off)

Our defence.... Martinez and Yoro looked all at sea for the whole game and did not work at all. Martinez coming back from injury and Yoro a young player. Dalot is dreadful and needs to move on, only Dorgu I think has the potential quality right now to start.

Midfield...Ugarte bless him it's a good duel winner and runner but he's not a good passer and doesn't have the quality to do anything else apart from break up play. Kobbie is ok but not played all year and lacks physically and Bruno is 31 and playing though an injury. Nowhere near good enough for us.

Attack...Sesko did ok and got a goal but Mount and Cunha were absolutely awful.

It's just sub par performances constantly the system won't change that. Probably only about 4 or maybe 5 who started on Sunday that I would actually pick to start for us if there were other options.

 

[Glorio]

We have quality (even if some inexperience) in both ends of the field, however, our midfield is problematic

 

[klayton88]

How have we ended up with a team with so many technically inept players? I watch the 18s and 21s knock it about with so much more zip and accuracy for the most part. You rarely see the ball passed straight out of play but we do it at least once a game. Passes a yard behind or a yard ahead which kill the momentum and ends up breaking down and losing possession. We absolutley gift teams possession easily 10/15 times a game, Casemiro did it twice in the first two minutes a few games back.

I asked the same question years ago on here, Why can't we pass a ball? and we still can't. We have too many players in the team who either shit the bed on the ball or can't pass more than five yards. What do we do all week in training because they always look like they've barely played together. This has happened under multiple managers and has been a glaring issue not addressed for easily five years. We've got midfielders who turn the ball over for fun, Bruno who does the same (he has about 50 touches a game of course he's going to get goals and assists, he's still a major turnover merchant trying his Hollywood stuff)

I genuinely don't think any combination of a starting 11 could pass the ball around in the oppositions half for more than 20 passes. We always try to force something, or somebody thinks they are the star of the show but actually has Fred's shooting ability and also is never in control of a football (Cunha). Dalot who gets in to great positions and has a great engine but is ultimately braindead and couldn't hit a cows arse with a bazooka. Ugarte, massive fundamental flaws. Mainoo, massive fundamental flaws. Mount can only play 5 games in a row in a very specific system. Luke Shaw simply doesn't look arsed and has no urgency or bite about him, never see him getting stuck in. People in the Martinez thread saying he should be moved to a holding midfielder, because he's got glaring holes as a CB, just no, buy a specialised DM in that case.

We have zero cohesion as a team because our team is full of players with one or two attributes and never a full house. This has happened under multiple regimes, multiple managers and multiple training teams.

 

[SirScholes]

It was the formation
Now it will be players having to change to another one

 

[Kayla40TS]

The Coach Voice is one i remember, saying that the positional rotations were limited to the front three and everyone else had rigid zone they should stick to.

Interesting. I thought I had sen videos and read articles that his midfield was quite fluid, but maybe just in terms of who sat and who moved forward, not neccessarily interchanging. Not that it matters, bloke was canned last week.

 

[Tyrion]

Well, I'd argue they aren't suited to 4 at the back with two holding midfielders, either. As we've seen the last two matches. Starts to sound like maybe the players just aren't that good, doesn't it?

You can argue that but you'd be wrong. I do find it funny that the last two results supposedly prove Amorim right despite Fletcher, who's had barely a season as an u18 coach, coaching the team to almost the same kind of performances we've had for a year.

 

[RedSky]

Midfield, massive lack of depth. Still having players that have failed for years in the first team.

It's a player issue. Always has been, Recruitment has been horrific for a decade. INEOS has turned it around a little bit though but so much work/money needed still.

 

[Kayla40TS]

You can argue that but you'd be wrong. I do find it funny that the last two results supposedly prove Amorim right despite Fletcher, who's had barely a season as an u18 coach, coaching the team to almost the same kind of performances we've had for a year.

Our squad as currently constructed very much does not suit 4-2-3-1. It may suit our attackers, though that's debatable with Amad and Mbeumo in the picture. It's debatable, with our current lack of a midfield two that could work, whether any tactics/shape suit our squad.

You can argue that using the last two matches as proof is wrong, and you may be right. You've made a good point about the similarity of results.

And to be fair, in this discussion, I am not necessarily arguing that Amorim was "right" so much as that simply our squad is not very good and amongst the worst balanced in the league. And the glaring issue isn't helped by reverting to 4 at the back.

 

[Tyrion]

Our squad as currently constructed very much does not suit 4-2-3-1. It may suit our attackers, though that's debatable with Amad and Mbeumo in the picture. It's debatable, with our current lack of a midfield two that could work, whether any tactics/shape suit our squad.

You can argue that using the last two matches as proof is wrong, and you may be right. You've made a good point about the similarity of results.

And to be fair, in this discussion, I am not necessarily arguing that Amorim was "right" so much as that simply our squad is not very good and amongst the worst balanced in the league. And the glaring issue isn't helped by reverting to 4 at the back.

Fair. I think the squad is really unbalanced. I'm a little glad we didnt get Semenyo. Any signing above 10 million that isnt a central midfielder would annoy me at this point.

 

[Ludens the Red]

It’s obviously only one game but today’s performance emphatically tells you that we have very good players at this club and we need to stop pretending otherwise or that other clubs have it so much better.

I was told last week we had a “bottom half midfield”. Imagine calling Casemiro and Bruno bottom half prem players. And a shout out to Mainoo today who whilst doesn’t have the catalogue Cas and Bruno has is clearly a very good player.

Teams with bottom half midfields can beat Manchester City of course, but they will never beat them like we did today.

Let’s stop pretending our players are shit, they obviously need to buck their ideas up and play with this kind of intensity more often but they also need to be given a platform and instructions by the coach to get the best out of them.

Amorim was here for a year and a bit and we did not produce one single performance at the level shown today.

 

[sammyhol]

Quick check in with the "the shape isn't important, it's about getting better players and better tactics" brigade.

I'm waving my magic wand. You are now Man Utd manager for the remainder of the season.

How many of you are changing us back to a 3421?

My guess is none of you. Interesting that....

 

[Marwood]

Quick check in with the "the shape isn't important, it's about getting better players and better tactics" brigade.

I'm waving my magic wand. You are now Man Utd manager for the remainder of the season.

How many of you are changing us back to a 3421?

My guess is none of you. Interesting that....

Would you prefer todays players in a 3421 or todays formation with Hojlund, Rashford and Garnacho as the front line?

 

[sammyhol]

Would you prefer todays players in a 3421 or todays formation with Hojlund, Rashford and Garnacho as the front line?

Oh yeh, fair point....

I forgot all these players magically appeared for Carrick today and Amorim hasn't had access to them for the entirety of the season, other than a brief period for Afcon.

It's such a nonsense point. Amorim wouldn't have played them like that today. That's the point.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

I always say midfield is my primary issue with this team - and it’s not the first time it’s been neglected.

Between signing Anderson in 2007 and Fellaini in 2013, we relied on the consistency of Fletcher and Carrick, sprinkled with the raw ability and experience of Scholes and Giggs for the most part.

Then we signed a bunch of midfielders with incredibly different profiles in Herrera, Blind, BFS, Schneiderlin, Pogba, Matic, Fred, most people expected DVB to be a no8, Eriksen, Casemiro, Amrabat and Ugarte.

Why is that list clearly a massive problem? Michael Carrick was our second best midfielder in his last season. Bruno is our best central midfielder today, and he isn’t even a central midfielder.

For a club that has had the likes of Roy Keane, Paul Ince, Bryan Robson, Paul Scholes and Michael Carrick in the last 40 years to now be relying on a legless Casemiro and a low IQ player like Ugarte to set its tempo and control games? It shows where we are and why we’re there. We have other issues, but the middle of the park exposes those issues more than those issues expose them.

We have seriously underestimated this position over years and made some bad buys like Schw Sw duo. Also missed on McAlister and few more players which would fix our midfield for a long time. Very strange and amateur recruitment in that regard..

On a different note maybe there is a chance Hackney could be on our radar now Carrick is here as interim. Then full on Baleba/Anderson in the summer.

 

[M Bison]

It’s obviously only one game but today’s performance emphatically tells you that we have very good players at this club and we need to stop pretending otherwise or that other clubs have it so much better.

I was told last week we had a “bottom half midfield”. Imagine calling Casemiro and Bruno bottom half prem players. And a shout out to Mainoo today who whilst doesn’t have the catalogue Cas and Bruno has is clearly a very good player.

Teams with bottom half midfields can beat Manchester City of course, but they will never beat them like we did today.

Let’s stop pretending our players are shit, they obviously need to buck their ideas up and play with this kind of intensity more often but they also need to be given a platform and instructions by the coach to get the best out of them.

Amorim was here for a year and a bit and we did not produce one single performance at the level shown today.

Totally agree, i did a thread last season about us having a top 4 squad and i believed it at the time, although (possibly rightly) i was shot down. We now have a better squad so i dont think its even a debate, we absolutely do have a top 4 squad.

Even looking at our bench today, to be able to bring Cunha, Mount, Heaven and Ugarte off the bench and still have Yoro and Sesko to call upon i think is a huge statement. We can obviously improve; the midfield needs greater depth and you'd like a bit more in the FB positions too, but we should be competing for top 4 without a shadow of a doubt in my view.

For me its always been a case of getting a bit more out of what we've got, its great to see Dorgu starting to kick on and look a threat, and Kobbie finally get a good run-out, there's depth in the squad we just havent seen it or have been unwilling to use it.

As others have said, its only 1 game but hopefully its the start of some positivity and a sign that we dont have to buy a full new starting 11 which is what we have been led to believe over the past 12 months.

 

[Borys]

Oh yeh, fair point....

I forgot all these players magically appeared for Carrick today and Amorim hasn't had access to them for the entirety of the season, other than a brief period for Afcon.

It's such a nonsense point. Amorim wouldn't have played them like that today. That's the point.

This is how I feel as well.

The point is (and I doubt anyone would debate it at this point)- improvements this season came with better players. Now we see the heights this squad can achieve when used properly. We’ve never seen this level under Amorim.

 

[AndySmith1990]

It's become really boring hearing weirdos trying to tell us all the players are shite just because they become personally attached to the manager. Obviously all our players aren't shite.

 

[Marwood]

Oh yeh, fair point....

I forgot all these players magically appeared for Carrick today and Amorim hasn't had access to them for the entirety of the season, other than a brief period for Afcon.

It's such a nonsense point. Amorim wouldn't have played them like that today. That's the point.

Well no obviously he wouldn't.

The problem or solution is obviously a blend of formation and players, but the latter will always be the bigger deal.

We play today with Heaven and Yoro instead of the senior CB's and I don't think we get that result.

I prefer 4 at the back but I think 3421 with todays players could have got a result.

 

[sammyhol]

Well no obviously he wouldn't.

The problem or solution is obviously a blend of formation and players, but the latter will always be the bigger deal.

We play today with Heaven and Yoro instead of the senior CB's and I don't think we get that result.

I prefer 4 at the back but I think 3421 with todays players could have got a result.

He might have. But if he did... It would likely have been a scraped, under pressure win.

It has taken exactly 1 game for Carrick to put together a performance of such domination against top opposition. I'm not naive enough to think there won't be ups and downs before the summer, but Amorim didn't once display a performance like that with his system in over a year.

Woodwork twice. 3 disallowed goals. MOTM performance from their goalkeeper. And still won comfortably 2-0 whilst receiving only a single shot on our goal.

All of that is an impossibility with Amorims shape and tactics. Same players. Completely difference result.

I don't know why people can't come out and just say it. Amorims football was crap.

 

[tjb]

Well no obviously he wouldn't.

The problem or solution is obviously a blend of formation and players, but the latter will always be the bigger deal.

We play today with Heaven and Yoro instead of the senior CB's and I don't think we get that result.

I prefer 4 at the back but I think 3421 with todays players could have got a result.

I don't. The problem with the 3421 was that our build up with 3 defenders and 2 wing backs didn't actually help us move the ball up the pitch quicker. So, we ended up just hoofing the ball into the opposition half. Most of the time, we were stuck in our own half if we didn't do this because we had more players operating in our own half.

3421wasn't the main problem, the problem was that Amorim liked moving the centre centre back into midfield during goal kicks. We would consistently play the same pattern, which didn't work (playing a pass into this CCB, who then played a wall pass left or right). This made us both predictable and kep the ball in our half longer than it needed to be. As a result of this not working, and there being weird spacing between our centre backs, we mostly played the ball long, turning games into 50/50 physical duels. When we had high energy levels, this could lead us to easily create chances, but also opened us up to easily give up chances. We never had control of games as a result...hence why we struggled to win. In a 50/50 physical battle in a league as physically intense as the premier league, you can win sometimes, lose sometimes and draw sometimes. This is why we drew so many games this season. Not because we don;t have talent, but because the system forced us into 50/50 physical duels almost all the time.

 

[Marwood]

He might have. But if he did... It would likely have been a scraped, under pressure win.

It has taken exactly 1 game for Carrick to put together a performance of such domination against top opposition. I'm not naive enough to think their won't be ups and downs before the summer, but Amorim didn't once display a performance like that with his system in over a year.

Woodwork twice. 3 disallowed goals. MOTM performance from their goalkeeper. And still won comfortably 2-0 whilst receiving only a single shot on our goal.

All of that is an impossibility with Amorims shape and tactics. Same players. Completely difference result.

I don't know why people can't come out and just say it. Amorims football was crap.

I'm no huge defender of Amorim, the football was crap too much of the time.

But certain players in this squad need to be fit and on the pitch for us to work. Whatever the formation.

Like I said, Yoro/Heaven instead of Martinez/Maguire. I really don't think we get that result.

I don't. The problem with the 3421 was that our build up with 3 defenders and 2 wing backs didn't actually help us move the ball up the pitch quicker. So, we ended up just hoofing the ball into the opposition half. Most of the time, we were stuck in our own half if we didn't do this because we had more players operating in our own half.

3421wasn't the main problem, the problem was that Amorim liked moving the centre centre back into midfield during goal kicks. We would consistently play the same pattern, which didn't work (playing a pass into this CCB, who then played a wall pass left or right). This made us both predictable and kep the ball in our half longer than it needed to be. As a result of this not working, and there being weird spacing between our centre backs, we mostly played the ball long, turning games into 50/50 physical duels. When we had high energy levels, this could lead us to easily create chances, but also opened us up to easily give up chances. We never had control of games as a result...hence why we struggled to win. In a 50/50 physical battle in a league as physically intense as the premier league, you can win sometimes, lose sometimes and draw sometimes. This is why we drew so many games this season. Not because we don;t have talent, but because the system forced us into 50/50 physical duels almost all the time.

Totally agree.

I had sympathy for Amorim last season because those forward options twinned with Onana/Bayindir were a nightmare and the results they caused put him on very thin ice.

But I said at the end of last season Amorim's big fault was how we struggled to move the ball out of defence.

 

[NZT-One]

Let’s stop pretending our players are shit, they obviously need to buck their ideas up and play with this kind of intensity more often but they also need to be given a platform and instructions by the coach to get the best out of them.

If they did play with this kind of intensity more often, they would be less likely be called shit. We've played a very very timid City team that had no plan for us today and we defended deeply for most of the game bar a few moments in the beginning before City adapted to stop losing balls so easily. We scored from counters - thats all great stuff and it makes for a great result but to conclude that his is down to the coach or his choice of formation is certainly not smart.

Quick check in with the "the shape isn't important, it's about getting better players and better tactics" brigade.

I'm waving my magic wand. You are now Man Utd manager for the remainder of the season.

How many of you are changing us back to a 3421?

My guess is none of you. Interesting that....

Make sure, you don't burn yourself gloating. ^^
A bit as expected, a good performance or a good result and it will be attributed towards the formation. Not very convincing. We can have the same discussion after a few games. But after a 32% possession game where understat has our PPDA at almost 16 (deep defending), dragging the formation onto the stage is a bit questionable.

 

[NZT-One]

I don't. The problem with the 3421 was that our build up with 3 defenders and 2 wing backs didn't actually help us move the ball up the pitch quicker. So, we ended up just hoofing the ball into the opposition half. Most of the time, we were stuck in our own half if we didn't do this because we had more players operating in our own half.

3421wasn't the main problem, the problem was that Amorim liked moving the centre centre back into midfield during goal kicks. We would consistently play the same pattern, which didn't work (playing a pass into this CCB, who then played a wall pass left or right). This made us both predictable and kep the ball in our half longer than it needed to be. As a result of this not working, and there being weird spacing between our centre backs, we mostly played the ball long, turning games into 50/50 physical duels. When we had high energy levels, this could lead us to easily create chances, but also opened us up to easily give up chances. We never had control of games as a result...hence why we struggled to win. In a 50/50 physical battle in a league as physically intense as the premier league, you can win sometimes, lose sometimes and draw sometimes. This is why we drew so many games this season. Not because we don;t have talent, but because the system forced us into 50/50 physical duels almost all the time.

This was an issue, no doubt but I'd say it is a little early to account that as a problem solved now we merely changed formation. City in the 2nd half had their CBs 25 yards in front of our goal. Even Bailly would have been able to "move the ball up the pitch quicker" with that much space to play into.

I agree with the 2nd paragraph though.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Totally agree, i did a thread last season about us having a top 4 squad and i believed it at the time, although (possibly rightly) i was shot down. We now have a better squad so i dont think its even a debate, we absolutely do have a top 4 squad.

Even looking at our bench today, to be able to bring Cunha, Mount, Heaven and Ugarte off the bench and still have Yoro and Sesko to call upon i think is a huge statement. We can obviously improve; the midfield needs greater depth and you'd like a bit more in the FB positions too, but we should be competing for top 4 without a shadow of a doubt in my view.

For me its always been a case of getting a bit more out of what we've got, its great to see Dorgu starting to kick on and look a threat, and Kobbie finally get a good run-out, there's depth in the squad we just havent seen it or have been unwilling to use it.

As others have said, its only 1 game but hopefully its the start of some positivity and a sign that we dont have to buy a full new starting 11 which is what we have been led to believe over the past 12 months.

100% it’s top four challenging and like you said, yes full backs can be upgraded and some more legs in midfield but outside Liverpool, Arsenal and city every other club has gaps like that in their squad.
Other clubs don’t have Maguire yoro, de ligt Martinez as cb options, nor final third players consisting of Mbeumo, Cunha, Amad, Mount and Bruno.

Well no obviously he wouldn't.

The problem or solution is obviously a blend of formation and players, but the latter will always be the bigger deal.

We play today with Heaven and Yoro instead of the senior CB's and I don't think we get that result.

I prefer 4 at the back but I think 3421 with todays players could have got a result.

Could have got a result yes but any system on any day can “get a result”.
Played like that and won like that? Absolutely not, not a chance in hell under Amorim. That’s why in the year and a bit he was here it never happened.
Even the big games we won were all 50/50 and could have gone either way. Outside of ball possession, we absolutely dominated city today.

There’s no way in hell you get that output with Amorims system because it’s not set up to play like that.
We hurt city out wide and could afford to push Amad and Dorgu forward knowing there was cover at full backs. City did have a lot of counter attacks but we were always in a good shape to stop them.
If you play Amorims system today and the wing backs push forward you leave your cb’s exposed and isolated against Doku and Semenyo. And that’s when all those gaps start appealing.
On top of that city’s full backs always want to come in and play narrow so having out and out wingers as we did, exposes the space.

 

[Apokalips]

Our squad as currently constructed very much does not suit 4-2-3-1. It may suit our attackers, though that's debatable with Amad and Mbeumo in the picture. It's debatable, with our current lack of a midfield two that could work, whether any tactics/shape suit our squad.

You can argue that using the last two matches as proof is wrong, and you may be right. You've made a good point about the similarity of results.

And to be fair, in this discussion, I am not necessarily arguing that Amorim was "right" so much as that simply our squad is not very good and amongst the worst balanced in the league. And the glaring issue isn't helped by reverting to 4 at the back.

How is it this squad doesn't suit a 4-2-3-1?

Bruno, Mainoo and Casemiro have played numerous times together in that shape to great effect. It gets the best out of them all.

Mainoo and Casemiro as the 2 with the natural defensive energy Bruno adds is much better than Bruno being 1 of 2 and his work being a necessity rather than an advantage.

Our defenders have all got tons if evidence of their effectiveness in a back 4 apart from maybe Dorgu.

Dalot and Shaw have both been voted player of the year in their time here playing full back. I could go on about every player but that would be long. I am struggling to see who a 4-2-3-1 doesn't suit?

 

[Apokalips]

It’s obviously only one game but today’s performance emphatically tells you that we have very good players at this club and we need to stop pretending otherwise or that other clubs have it so much better.

I was told last week we had a “bottom half midfield”. Imagine calling Casemiro and Bruno bottom half prem players. And a shout out to Mainoo today who whilst doesn’t have the catalogue Cas and Bruno has is clearly a very good player.

Teams with bottom half midfields can beat Manchester City of course, but they will never beat them like we did today.

Let’s stop pretending our players are shit, they obviously need to buck their ideas up and play with this kind of intensity more often but they also need to be given a platform and instructions by the coach to get the best out of them.

Amorim was here for a year and a bit and we did not produce one single performance at the level shown today.

Fully agreed, our squad is far from shit.

I don't care Villa do not have a better squad than us, they literally took one of our worst players to bolster their squad.

I've said many times that I spoke to one of the players in the summer and he said they all feel that Amorim's system makes them feel like the opposition team always seem to have an additional man.

 

[Ludens the Red]

If they did play with this kind of intensity more often, they would be less likely be called shit. We've played a very very timid City team that had no plan for us today and we defended deeply for most of the game bar a few moments in the beginning before City adapted to stop losing balls so easily. We scored from counters - thats all great stuff and it makes for a great result but to conclude that his is down to the coach or his choice of formation is certainly not smart.


Make sure, you don't burn yourself gloating. ^^
A bit as expected, a good performance or a good result and it will be attributed towards the formation. Not very convincing. We can have the same discussion after a few games. But after a 32% possession game where understat has our PPDA at almost 16 (deep defending), dragging the formation onto the stage is a bit questionable. played plenty of timid teams over the last two months a

We played plenty a timid side under Amorim and were absolutely shite. Take games vs Everton, West Ham, Wolves, etc.

To try and dismiss today’s performance as a hit and counter and focus on ball possession is wild to be honest.
The job of a football manager is to adapt and win games of football depending on opponent.
We literally just had a manager who’s failure at the club was largely down to inability to read games/opponents and understand how to use his players.

To have watched that game and to conclude our set up and tactics had nothing to do with the win is again wild.
Carrick looked at city, picked an eleven and a system and tactics most suitable to try and win the game. Something Amorim spent over a year not doing.
So spare us the patronising tone as if we didn’t all witness what we witnessed.

City just walked all over Newcastle a few days earlier, a team im repeatedly told have a much better squad and much better midfield than us.

 

[NZT-One]

We played plenty a timid side under Amorim and were absolutely shite. Take games vs Everton, West Ham, Wolves, etc.

If you see no difference between the character of those games and the game today, then we have nothing to talk about. (hint: think about who had the possession)

So spare us the patronising tone as if we didn’t all witness what we witnessed.

You are certainly free to think whatever you feel is right. I didn't want to come across as condescending so pardon me if I crossed the line. But let me say this: maybe you are so sure about having seen something because you really really wanting to see it. Maybe. Maybe not. Lets leave it at that, enjoy the evening after a deserved win in a big game.

 

[The Hilton]

If they did play with this kind of intensity more often, they would be less likely be called shit. We've played a very very timid City team that had no plan for us today and we defended deeply for most of the game bar a few moments in the beginning before City adapted to stop losing balls so easily. We scored from counters - thats all great stuff and it makes for a great result but to conclude that his is down to the coach or his choice of formation is certainly not smart.


Make sure, you don't burn yourself gloating. ^^
A bit as expected, a good performance or a good result and it will be attributed towards the formation. Not very convincing. We can have the same discussion after a few games. But after a 32% possession game where understat has our PPDA at almost 16 (deep defending), dragging the formation onto the stage is a bit questionable.

I've been saying for weeks now that this approach is the one we're most suited to personnel wise, given our midfield and fullback weaknesses. Carrick set us up perfectly, we were happy to cede possession and territory, minimised the amount of space that the midfielders and fullbacks needed to cover by sitting deep and compact, and absolutely battered City in transition. It was reminiscent of the FA Cup final under Ten Hag, and numerous games against City under Ole.

Unfortunately, there aren't many other teams that this kind of approach will work against, at least not consistently, as we saw under Ole. The big question is whether Carrick can find a setup with our current players that's more forward thinking and proactive, for when we come up against the teams that sit back against us. It'll be great if he can, but until we get more legs and better passing in midfield and at fullback I expect us to struggle due to the extra space we'll need to cover. I'd love to be wrong though.

 

[Oranges038]

Players stood up today, but we've seen these sorts of performances before and even under Amorim, only for the next game to be the total opposite.

Let's see of they can do this consistently between now and the end of the season.

 

[Roboc7]

Playing a back 4 doesn’t solve all our problems, just like the performance today doesn’t mean the quality of our players isn’t an issue. Under Amorim it was too many square pegs in round holes and too often we were playing a formation that exposed our weaknesses.

We are weak in midfield and we only really had Amad who had any ability to play as a wingback yet we were lining up with wingbacks and a wide open midfield week after week.

 

[NZT-One]

I've been saying for weeks now that this approach is the one we're most suited to personnel wise, given our midfield and fullback weaknesses. Carrick set us up perfectly, we were happy to cede possession and territory, minimised the amount of space that the midfielders and fullbacks needed to cover by sitting deep and compact, and absolutely battered City in transition. It was reminiscent of the FA Cup final under Ten Hag, and numerous games against City under Ole.

Yes, I agree. It was a good plan. And well executed. But I am sure we can all agree that it shouldn't be a blueprint for the future? I mean, if we would want that, our opposition won't allow it.

Unfortunately, there aren't many other teams that this kind of approach will work against, at least not consistently, as we saw under Ole. The big question is whether Carrick can find a setup with our current players that's more forward thinking and proactive, for when we come up against the teams that sit back against us. It'll be great if he can, but until we get more legs and better passing in midfield and at fullback I expect us to struggle due to the extra space we'll need to cover. I'd love to be wrong though.

100%. Which is why I am so worried to see the activities in the Maguire and Casemiro thread where people are ready to keep them around... I'd consider that drawing the wrong conclusions from good results like today. The most stunning part is that we kind of did that after the FA cup final as well and look where that "performance" led us - nowhere. Shocker.

 

[Ludens the Red]

If you see no difference between the character of those games and the game today, then we have nothing to talk about. (hint: think about who had the possession)

You are certainly free to think whatever you feel is right. I didn't want to come across as condescending so pardon me if I crossed the line. But let me say this: maybe you are so sure about having seen something because you really really wanting to see it. Maybe. Maybe not. Lets leave it at that, enjoy the evening after a deserved win in a big game.

The fact you have brought up possession again, means we have nothin to talk about…

You didn’t want to come across as condescending?

Yeah sure, that’s why this was your response to two posters who praised the performance.

We scored from counters - thats all great stuff and it makes for a great result but to conclude that his is down to the coach or his choice of formation is certainly not smart.


Make sure, you don't burn yourself gloating. ^^
A bit as expected, a good performance or a good result and it will be attributed towards the formation. Not very convincing. We can have the same discussion after a few games

But yeah you didn’t intend to be patronising at all.

I remember you telling me a week back or so that our players don’t have game intelligence or technical ability. I’d say today showed that they do.

You also said the below to me..

I am all up for mentality, experience, winners attitude, leadership, culture - lets have it all, heck, get as astract as we can. But before we do, lets make sure the fundamentals are set first, before we waste too much energy fiddling with the advanced stuff.

So Carrick does exactly that today and all you’ve come in this thread to do is downplay the victory and make out as if it was some kick and run backs against the wall counter victory. I mean I can be a pessimistic miserable so and so at times but damn…