The manager has lost the players

[Bastian]

Thanks for being reasonable when faced with a different opinion by the way.

I believed the strategy has been become solid to beat and counter and then add the necessary layers to play higher tempo football. Which I think we were on track for until Ronaldo.

Now I believe Ronaldo is a world class player but I also feel he’s presenting the team with a similar identity crisis to the one Juventus suffered. We have to build around him which means we need energy from elsewhere. I think having a forward that does not press is exposing our weak CM more than we’ve seen with Cavani last season. I think Ole has spotted this issue. I have no idea how he fixes it without using McFred whenever Ronaldo plays. But that means always leaving out one of Sancho/Rashford/Greenwood/Pogba.

That is what I think is a major and new squad issue.

I would also hate for the team to unravel further I just don’t feel it will. I believe we have a good enough management to resolve the issues.

I would say though that if we do lose the next 2/3 games the I agree his position becomes harder to defend as I am expecting as manger him to make decisions to improve the current CM weakness or at least mask it better than the last few games have shown.

I expect us to get top 4 (I want us to win leagues as much as anyone else for what it’s worth) and I believe Ole is capable of working with these players to achieve that.

Eventually I think he’ll need replacing. I guess we just disagree on timescales perhaps?

Good points. That seemed to be the strategy early on, it was about a higher tempo and to outwork other teams, with regards to which he kept referring to building the team's fitness. And he wanted to play out from the back too. It's up for debate if he's bought sensibly with those ambitions in mind, but it feels as though we hit a wall just before signing Bruno and then he changed the tactical setup quite a bit. And I'm not sure we ever got that hard working team he was going to produce.

In terms of that pressing game, yes, the team definitely has to account for Ronaldo being a roaming poacher preserving his energy. But I'd also say the team needs to account for Pogba's (tactical issue) and Martial's (acceptable standards issue) low work rate, and some other players inefficient (coaching issue) work rate.

I'd worry that his lack of credit in the bank will make it very difficult for him to manage dropping one or two of the bigger personalities, with regards to dressing room morale. The obvious one to me is Pogba who, as of yet, is not committed to the club long-term and has just come out with pretty scathing remarks, as he can't drop Bruno who has numerous times bailed him out and does work hard (though often inefficiently). It's definitely at the stage where he has to identify what players are going to give him 100% and forgetting the rest. He's done that in the past and it has worked for him. I just think there's too much negative momentum he won't be able to halt.

He's got a quarter of Phil Neville amount of must-win-games looming.

 

[Hammondo]

The worst thing is, I don't think he's lost the players. I think they pity him and his lack of managerial prowess, they know they have the power and play along. We have the best squad in the league and we are worse to watch than Norwich.

Nowhere near the best squad.

 

[Red Dreams]

Ronaldo as player manager…just imagine that!

I'd take that until we get an appointment.

He must be sacked immediately

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Sack him as soon as possible, we dont want to waste this squad and chance ,Ronaldo Cavani won't be the same players next year, Pogba might be gone. Ole was always way out of his depth and nowhere near good enough a manager for a squad with of much talent. The sooner he is sacked or resigns, the better.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Anyone not playing their heart out are not worthy of wearing the emblem.

No mate, its Ole that isn't worthy of being manager. He is way out of his depth, always was. Nowhere near the level needed.

 

[justboy68]

I think that biased guy, Joe on Stretford Paddock was trying to cover Ole again, by pointing to a lack of effort and individual mistakes.

Adam is the only one on that channel who I can tolerate. The rest are the definition of 'top reds' without a clue between them. They are worse than Goldbridge.

 

[ExoduS]

Manager lost players, players lost the manager and players lost their teammates. Total shambles. We need to see this one through. Let's hit rock bottom. I think we need to hit rock bottom. I am not sure what rock bottom would mean with us with this squad.

 

[BlueHaze]

Sack him as soon as possible, we dont want to waste this squad and chance ,Ronaldo Cavani won't be the same players next year, Pogba might be gone. Ole was always way out of his depth and nowhere near good enough a manager for a squad with of much talent. The sooner he is sacked or resigns, the better.

True. It's absolutely shocking and actually frightening how daft the people are who run this club. We have a small window now of challenging for something with Ronaldo and they are just going to waste it. They think Ronaldo will be around for another 4 years or something. As for resigning there's no way in hell he's gonna do that.

 

[Matthew1972]

Apparently, this year he is not supposed to be challenging for title. Ole still need another year before he can challenge year after next. He also need more time to implement style of play.

If you can't see this you are not Top Red.

Give me a break. He's had more than enough time. This is by far his strongest collection of players and they STRUGGLE game after game.

 

[Foxbatt]

True. It's absolutely shocking and actually frightening how daft the people are who run this club. We have a small window now of challenging for something with Ronaldo and they are just going to waste it. They think Ronaldo will be around for another 4 years or something. As for resigning there's no way in hell he's gonna do that.

You have no idea. He is still trying to get a system going and teaching all these players how to play good football the United way. By the time he does that Greenwood would be a grandfather at the rate things are going.

 

[DRJosh]

I suspect Ronaldo imagined Ole to be a better manager than he actually is when deciding to join us.

 

[smi11ie]

He will lay his usual guilt trip on the team "You guys are going to get me sacked". It's really the only motivational talk he is capable of. Irony is that Ole and the coaching staff have let the players down, not the other way around. The board are probably lining up his replacement. Depressing stuff.

 

[Caesar2290]

Anyone not playing their heart out are not worthy of wearing the emblem.

Do we include the manager and coaching staff in this as well?

 

[Matthew1972]

11 games played. Two were comfortable wins against bottom 4 teams. The other nine were epic struggles that included three losses, two wins on last gasp goals, a home loss to Aston Villa, a CL loss to Young Boys, and no wins by more than 1 goal. I have not enjoyed watching this team once since Ronaldo's debut. In fact I stopped watching and just record the game, to save myself the agony of watching world class players look like shite.

It is apparent that Wan Bissaka is not the answer at right back. Maguire is playing like a $40 million CB and not like an $80 million CB he was signed to be. The defense plays like they have never practiced together and have no strategy at all when it comes to defending opponents. We have no quality MFs save for McTominay, but he's average. Matic is slow, and needs to be put to pasture. Pogba plays great for like 10 of 90 minutes. I love Fernandes, Greenwood, Rashford, Varane, Shaw, and DeGea.

Ole is not a great manager. We need great. I suspect Rodgers in Summer of '22 will be the guy.

 

[tenpoless]

Cant help but to think once he left we might hear more insider stuffs similar to how Moyes used to ask Rio and Vidic to watch Jagielka.

 

[OrcaFat]

Yes but you know why. Liverpool were missing key players and Chelsea had to come back from a disastrous start. It’s quite clear really, hence we are back to where we are respectively.

Let’s not pretend it is impossible to finish above those sides. It happened. Consensus is it would be more likely to happen if we swapped managers with Liverpool and I don’t disagree but many factors come into it.

The fact Liverpool couldn’t finish above us without key players shows how important “key” players are. And don’t forget, we’ve had to do the whole thing without any “key” players in CM (not sure whose fault that is but we are suffering for it now).

 

[dwd]

Let’s not pretend it is impossible to finish above those sides. It happened. Consensus is it would be more likely to happen if we swapped managers with Liverpool and I don’t disagree but many factors come into it.

The fact Liverpool couldn’t finish above us without key players shows how important “key” players are. And don’t forget, we’ve had to do the whole thing without any “key” players in CM (not sure whose fault that is but we are suffering for it now).

Chelsea sacked Lampard, Liverpool got their key players back, now look at the league. You say you are losing faith but it seems you are very much still in denial.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Thanks for that. Can't argue with anything he said. He got it spot on.

 

[Squaaaad]

If we don't sack Ole soon then this season has the potential to be worse than Mourinho's 6 months of 18/19.

 

[JPRouve]

11 games played. Two were comfortable wins against bottom 4 teams. The other nine were epic struggles that included three losses, two wins on last gasp goals, a home loss to Aston Villa, a CL loss to Young Boys, and no wins by more than 1 goal. I have not enjoyed watching this team once since Ronaldo's debut. In fact I stopped watching and just record the game, to save myself the agony of watching world class players look like shite.

It is apparent that Wan Bissaka is not the answer at right back. Maguire is playing like a $40 million CB and not like an $80 million CB he was signed to be. The defense plays like they have never practiced together and have no strategy at all when it comes to defending opponents. We have no quality MFs save for McTominay, but he's average. Matic is slow, and needs to be put to pasture. Pogba plays great for like 10 of 90 minutes. I love Fernandes, Greenwood, Rashford, Varane, Shaw, and DeGea.

Ole is not a great manager. We need great. I suspect Rodgers in Summer of '22 will be the guy.

Maguire was always closer to a 40m-50m centerback. 80m is Van Dijk level which is not where Maguire has ever been. He is still a good player but the overpayment was obvious and discussed way before the transfer happened.

 

[Deery]

I don’t think he’s lost the players but players pick up the characteristics of a manager and that’s reflected on the pitch no fight no fire.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Cant help but to think once he left we might hear more insider stuffs similar to how Moyes used to ask Rio and Vidic to watch Jagielka.

Rio confirmed that never happened.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Manager lost players, players lost the manager and players lost their teammates. Total shambles. We need to see this one through. Let's hit rock bottom. I think we need to hit rock bottom. I am not sure what rock bottom would mean with us with this squad.

It's typical of this club over the years and the shambolic way we're run from top to bottom. We can all see the way this is going, we've been here before it's an all too familiar feeling, but instead of acting now we dither and wait, as we want to ensure the situation gets worse to the point where the manager is feeling embarrassed and the entire fan base is fed up and miserable.

Only then, once everything is beyond fixing and the season is dead, can the board finally take action, because we're United and we're different/better than other clubs, in that we show blind loyalty to mediocre managers and back them even if it's to our own detriment. Who cares about winning trophies when you can take the moral high ground and claim to not be as ruthless and soulless as all those horrid (and rather successful) sacking clubs. DNA*


*cringes

 

[yamo123x]

Its all too nice and so uninspiring
Ole should do the right thing and resign.

In his interviews he says the same things, since day one " we've got a great group" "we need to improve" " the boys want to learn".

Too nice !

 

[steve.crowford]

We play poorly because we have 5-6 attacking players that don't contribute consistently enough defensively. It's not magic. PSG play MNM but then they have 3 midfielders in Herrera, Gueye and Veratti, and their defenders. If PSG played MNM and played Draxler as a 10 and played Di Maria and Herrera, everyone would be beating them.
It's about Balance. Ole has tried to please everyone. He has tried to please Pogba, Bruno, Ronaldo, Greenwood and Sancho. It's not possible.
We need a bit of balance, when we went on a run last year, it was because we dropped Pogba and played Bruno with McFred. I actually think for us to gain some balance Bruno needs to be dropped. His position is a luxury one we can't afford. Meanwhile we need another body in midfield to control it more.
For games we will have most of the possession, I would expect Van De Beek to play deeper, so it is a shield of three with Pogba and Matic. For games where we won't have most of the possession play Pogba, Fred and Mctominay.
Bruno needs to be dropped. It's that simple. If you don't drop Bruno, then Ronaldo needs to be dropped, but then the criticism Ole would get would be unreal. I would also play Sancho on the right because he can create more chances for Ronaldo and Rashford. 1 of our wingers must be a creator since we are dropping Bruno.

Please don't reflexively downvote this, just read it and think about it. There is no space for 4 or 5 attackers in this team. Max is 3. Except we are playing a really weak team.

 

[OrcaFat]

Chelsea sacked Lampard, Liverpool got their key players back, now look at the league. You say you are losing faith but it seems you are very much still in denial.

Yes I’m losing faith. But I’m not in denial about last season’s league position. For me it has always been about points and league position over a long period. I don’t agree with micro analysis, it’s a waste of time and most of it is bollocks.

I never have said Ole is better than Klopp or Pep. If those two can’t win without their best players then everyone else has a chance - that's something that can’t be denied. And you can argue all day about the excuses but the fact is we finished above Liverpool last year.

And here’s the important bit about Ole - I used to think that we can finish above Liverpool again this year but after the recent run of performances and results, I don’t have faith any more. I prefer to judge over as long a period as possible but we’ve been poor for long enough now for me to form a view.

Mistakes were made in the summer. We should have bought at least one CM and a RB instead of Sancho and probably Ronaldo even though they sound like tough calls. I have to assume Ole had significant input into those decisions and must take responsibility. The team does not look balanced and that must be on Ole.

I don’t fancy any manager’s chances of winning the league with our squad as it stands but I am now tending to the view that Ole’s selection decisions are making it worse than it needs to be. Possibly he can turn it around but I just don’t believe anymore.

 

[dwd]

Yes I’m losing faith. But I’m not in denial about last season’s league position. For me it has always been about points and league position over a long period. I don’t agree with micro analysis, it’s a waste of time and most of it is bollocks.

I never have said Ole is better than Klopp or Pep. If those two can’t win without their best players then everyone else has a chance - that's something that can’t be denied. And you can argue all day about the excuses but the fact is we finished above Liverpool last year.

And here’s the important bit about Ole - I used to think that we can finish above Liverpool again this year but after the recent run of performances and results, I don’t have faith any more. I prefer to judge over as long a period as possible but we’ve been poor for long enough now for me to form a view.

Mistakes were made in the summer. We should have bought at least one CM and a RB instead of Sancho and probably Ronaldo even though they sound like tough calls. I have to assume Ole had significant input into those decisions and must take responsibility. The team does not look balanced and that must be on Ole.

I don’t fancy any manager’s chances of winning the league with our squad as it stands but I am now tending to the view that Ole’s selection decisions are making it worse than it needs to be. Possibly he can turn it around but I just don’t believe anymore.

Just a reminder that the point being discussed was that you didn’t know how we finished ahead of Liverpool and Chelsea last season.

 

[DreadnoughtRS88]

Best squad in the league

Delusional statement

Not surprised you can't see it is arguably the best squad in the league. They perform so poorly that by now you probably think Ferran Torres is better than Ronaldo, Dias is better than Varane and Robertson is better than Shaw. Oh and Kovacic is surely better than Pogba, whereas Bruno can't lace Mount's boots. The only positions we are not the strongest in are CDM and RB. All other players we have are right up there. No team in the league has as much quality in the attacking positions as we do.

 

[Judas]

I've had the nagging feeling we're going to waste a group with real potential with having Ole in charge, and that was before we signed Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane. A big decision should be made soon but I think we'll wait far too long.

 

[rron10]

We once had Rooney, RVP, Di Maria and Falcao and we were a disaster, against the same Leicester.

It seems that improving the team after, maybe one of the best summer transfers in our recent history, actually made us worse. Changing players is not an option at this point, it is either the manager or the manager.
I don't think Ole is a bad manager, he was fairly good for us(finishing 3rd and 2nd is not an easy task, considering where we were when he arrived) but he is not good enough to take us to the next level and win trophies or challenge for a PL title.

 

[OrcaFat]

Just a reminder that the point being discussed was that you didn’t know how we finished ahead of Liverpool and Chelsea last season.

Oh, yes, figure of speech.

The original question was whether Ole can finish above Pep and Klopp with the same quality of players. It’s a matter of debate as to the relative quality of the collective players but my point was that that hypothetical is not the important question to ask. The only thing that matters is whether we can finish above them in real life. It doesn’t matter HOW it happens, it can and does happen.

In my last post I was replying to your previous one.

 

[justsomebloke]

He will lay his usual guilt trip on the team "You guys are going to get me sacked". It's really the only motivational talk he is capable of. Irony is that Ole and the coaching staff have let the players down, not the other way around. The board are probably lining up his replacement. Depressing stuff.

Really? And you know this....how exactly? You've been there for OGS' motivational talks?

 

[dwd]

Oh, yes, figure of speech.

The original question was whether Ole can finish above Pep and Klopp with the same quality of players. It’s a matter of debate as to the relative quality of the collective players but my point was that that hypothetical is not the important question to ask. The only thing that matters is whether we can finish above them in real life. It doesn’t matter HOW it happens, it can and does happen.

In my last post I was replying to your previous one.

Well it is quite clear that the misfortune of our rivals benefitted Ole massively and as a result has blinded many into thinking we have been doing a lot better than the level of management of the group of players that we have. Many pointed this out and we’re shouted down. Reality is showing a lot of people up now.

 

[Gavinb33]

He might not have lost the players but he is losing the fans and fast.

Was at the game yesterday and afterwards and on the way home most reds I spoke to were saying he should either be sacked or leave.

If results carry on it will be a shame to see as Ole is clearly a legend of this club, but it's just not good enough at the minute.

The only thing that will keep him in a job is the lack of clear candidate who can come in and take what he has built so far onto the next level and that was also the consensus from most reds I spoke to yesterday also.

 

[red4ever 79]

He might not have lost the players but he is losing the fans and fast.

Was at the game yesterday and afterwards and on the way home most reds I spoke to were saying he should either be sacked or leave.

If results carry on it will be a shame to see as Ole is clearly a legend of this club, but it's just not good enough at the minute.

The only thing that will keep him in a job is the lack of clear candidate who can come in and take what he has built so far onto the next level and that was also the consensus from most reds I spoke to yesterday also.

i heard a lot of the away fans left before the end, can you confirm? That would have never happened when i used to travel to away games

 

[OrcaFat]

Well it is quite clear that the misfortune of our rivals benefitted Ole massively and as a result has blinded many into thinking we have been doing a lot better than the level of management of the group of players that we have. Many pointed this out and we’re shouted down. Reality is showing a lot of people up now.

It’s all reality. Last season was reality. The last 15 games of us being poor is reality. Liverpool being better with VVD is a reality, not that anyone I know would argue otherwise.

Anyone who wants to qualify our (relative) successes but not our failures should be shouted down. The only way to do it is to just look at the points. Excuses are off the table, last year and this year, always.

If Ole has a fully fit squad we give anyone a decent game, despite having terrible CM options. If not, we look a shambles, no excuses.

 

[Gavinb33]

i heard a lot of the away fans left before the end, can you confirm? That would have never happened when i used to travel to away games

Yes, from my and mine brothers part of the ground anyway it was a steady exodus probably after the 3rd goal from Leicester

 

[Dosse]

What sort of shit is this? If you have a crap boss who can't motivate you or doesn't inspire confidence then you will always struggle no matter what the profession. It is literally the managers fecking job!

Is this the last line of defending the manager and throwing the players under the bus instead?

They are grown men and bois earning disgusting money. Least we expect is 100%, despite Ole.

 

[dwd]

It’s all reality. Last season was reality. The last 15 games of us being poor is reality. Liverpool being better with VVD is a reality, not that anyone I know would argue otherwise.

Anyone who wants to qualify our (relative) successes but not our failures should be shouted down. The only way to do it is to just look at the points. Excuses are off the table, last year and this year, always.

If Ole has a fully fit squad we give anyone a decent game, despite having terrible CM options. If not, we look a shambles, no excuses.

Well it’s good to see you’re seeing some sense a little at least. I’m just saying that 2nd place under the circumstances involved will prove to actually hurt us more in the long run as it flattered to perceive a level of progress far higher than it actually was.

And to keep it relevant to the thread, I think the players are starting to see that now too so I don’t blame you for being part of the last stand.

 

[noodlehair]

I think it's a testament to the players that it's taken this long tbh. My absolute cut off point with Ole was the Sheffield United game last season...

But you know...even ignoring the fact he misuses half of them, last season he cost the players a chance of progressing in the CL with some absolutely awful management in the PSG home game. He cost them a chance of the FA Cup by picking strong teams all the way through then randomly picking a circus line up in the quarter final. He cost them a chance of a title race with some completely dumb management in games like the Sheffield United one. He cost them in the Europa League final by being too scared to change anything.

Maybe they wouldn't have been good enough anyway, but rather than being someone who helps them believe they are, he hampers things to the point that he doesn't give them the chance to find out.

They've stuck with him through all that and I think probably things like winning 5-1 this season only for him to dick around yet again and go back to what they would already have known wouldn't work, were probably the last straw.

I can't envisage a situation now where if I was a united player I'd still have any trust in him. Players are human beings and want to win like the rest of us at the end of the day. If we see and think it then if anything they have seen and thought it for even longer.