The manager has lost the players

[justsomebloke]

Yes I’m losing faith. But I’m not in denial about last season’s league position. For me it has always been about points and league position over a long period. I don’t agree with micro analysis, it’s a waste of time and most of it is bollocks.

I never have said Ole is better than Klopp or Pep. If those two can’t win without their best players then everyone else has a chance - that's something that can’t be denied. And you can argue all day about the excuses but the fact is we finished above Liverpool last year.

And here’s the important bit about Ole - I used to think that we can finish above Liverpool again this year but after the recent run of performances and results, I don’t have faith any more. I prefer to judge over as long a period as possible but we’ve been poor for long enough now for me to form a view.

Mistakes were made in the summer. We should have bought at least one CM and a RB instead of Sancho and probably Ronaldo even though they sound like tough calls. I have to assume Ole had significant input into those decisions and must take responsibility. The team does not look balanced and that must be on Ole.

I don’t fancy any manager’s chances of winning the league with our squad as it stands but I am now tending to the view that Ole’s selection decisions are making it worse than it needs to be. Possibly he can turn it around but I just don’t believe anymore.

Pretty much agree with this. We now have acute balance issues resulting to some extent directly from this summer's transfer decisions, and it's really really hard to see a solution for them, with the pieces we have available.

If you were going to play Pogba on the left, there was a real question if we really had the space to accomodate Sancho. And Ronaldo, wonderful player though he is, if you get him, he plays, and if he plays, then you have to build around him. "Focus vortex" was a phrase I used at one point. That has a major, and mainly negative, impact on what the rest of the team has to do and can do that must be put against the many positives he brings. Also, there's a question of appropriate depth. I think ideally you would want 6 players with a claim to fairly regular starts for those 4 positions. Currently, we have 7 or 8 (depending on whether you count Martial). Given that 2-4 of them are basically undroppable (Ronaldo, Bruno and to a lesser extent Rashford and Pogba), that's really too many.

Conversely, the CM has gone from being a weak but still basically functional area of the team to becoming an acute problem that has to be fixed, and quickly. In part because playing Ronaldo more or less takes away the option of shielding the midfield through diligent high pressing. And we just don't have a suitable mix of qualities in the players we have in that position, so that's not going to be easy. In retrosepct, it looks obvious that we ought to have prioritised the central midfield this summer, even at the cost of not signing Sancho. I can't claim to have argued that at the time. But I can claim to have argued that we should not sign CR, and I still think so. No midfield signing would have automatically fixed the midfield in itself, but the right one would at least have made a solution more feasible than it is with the current players.

It's on Ole and the coaching staff to solve this, and find a way to make this team work with the players they have (and probably in a way involving starting CR constantly as well as Bruno and a still un-renewed Pogba). If they can manage that, I take my hat off to them.

 

[OrcaFat]

Well it’s good to see you’re seeing some sense a little at least. I’m just saying that 2nd place under the circumstances involved will prove to actually hurt us more in the long run as it flattered to perceive a level of progress far higher than it actually was.

And to keep it relevant to the thread, I think the players are starting to see that now too so I don’t blame you for being part of the last stand.

Yeah Pogba is pretty much in open rebellion. (Irony is he’ll be the first to be benched if Ole goes back to pragmatism.) I would think many of the players are having doubts at this point.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I think it's a testament to the players that it's taken this long tbh. My absolute cut off point with Ole was the Sheffield United game last season...

But you know...even ignoring the fact he misuses half of them, last season he cost the players a chance of progressing in the CL with some absolutely awful management in the PSG home game. He cost them a chance of the FA Cup by picking strong teams all the way through then randomly picking a circus line up in the quarter final. He cost them a chance of a title race with some completely dumb management in games like the Sheffield United one. He cost them in the Europa League final by being too scared to change anything.

Maybe they wouldn't have been good enough anyway, but rather than being someone who helps them believe they are, he hampers things to the point that he doesn't give them the chance to find out.

They've stuck with him through all that and I think probably things like winning 5-1 this season only for him to dick around yet again and go back to what they would already have known wouldn't work, were probably the last straw.

I can't envisage a situation now where if I was a united player I'd still have any trust in him. Players are human beings and want to win like the rest of us at the end of the day. If we see and think it then if anything they have seen and thought it for even longer

Good post. Always seems to be so much emphasis on the players letting the manager down as if they're the villains which is just wrong.

 

[OrcaFat]

Good post. Always seems to be so much emphasis on the players letting the manager down as if they're the villains which is just wrong.

There’s room for criticism of the players as well. Many of them have often played below their best level and some of them are not good enough even when they do play to their best level.

I agree that everything is ultimately down to the manager.

If players think they are being used out of position or in a way that won’t get the best out of their abilities, they are going to get annoyed eventually. They might buy into the grand scheme and take a hit for the team if we keep winning but when it falls apart, all their misgivings will appear justified. The decisions they accepted in the past will now look like lunacy.

 

[Tom Cato]

Do we include the manager and coaching staff in this as well?

Yes they should be criticized for not playing well enough.

Can er stop making excuses for the players on the pitch?

 

[RedMarcus]

We need a change of management now to save our season and stop derailing all the good work done over the last few seasons. Thanks Ole - you did a great job getting us back in the mix but we need a world class manager now if we are going to win the Premier League or go deep in the Champions League.

Its not all on Ole though. Some of the players need to take a good long look at themselves too (Pogba as always, Maguire has been poor, Sancho has been ineffective)

 

[Caesar2290]

Yes they should be criticized for not playing well enough.

Can er stop making excuses for the players on the pitch?

Who's making excuses? Open any player performance and you will see that Ronaldo is too old and finished, Sancho is a flop, Shaw is back to his old self, Lindelof is being... well, Lindelof, and don't get me started on Maguire etc etc

It's just that lately people have realized that you can scapegoat players so much. If the team isn't performing the responsability lies with the manager.

 

[Old Ma Crow]

I think we are a month of bad results away from the action of sacking him. And even then, availability of alternatives will come into it, I should think.

It’s been shambolic since we beat Leeds and I don’t think the board will let it continue much longer but, as I keep saying, wins will change that vibe.

Possibly wins will paper over the cracks, as is often argued. I can’t really defend Ole at this point; wins and points over a long period is what he needs (and has always needed) and the trend over the last 15 games (or so) is not good at all. The players must be having some doubts.

It looked clear to me that the players aren’t committed and giving their all. Not even Bruno. I thought the Leicester match was a chips down situation and it was shambolic from selection and tactics(sweet fa there) to the performance. The difference is that Ole has something to lose now.

 

[Legend16]

as someone working in the film industry I know one thing. you can have the greatest actors in the world in your cast but if the director has no vision you're screwed. it will result in confusion for the actors, some stand out moments, but ultimately a bad film that leaves the audience frustrated or angry. move those same actors to the next project with a great director and they'll win awards. good producers recognise this early and remove the director to save the film. I see a lot of parallels here.

 

[LoneStar]

Not sure if he has lost the dressing room, but the new players, especially Ronaldo and Varane would probably be thinking what they entered into after this shambles.

Pogba openly calling out that there are issues. Only a matter of time before players like Bruno and Sancho get more frustrated too. I think most of our English players (Maguire, Rashford, AWB, Shaw, Greenwood) are still with the manager though.

 

[Pretzels81]

Sack him. Sack Ole.

Improved squad for the 21-22 season yet it will be worse than 19-20. You can't get these poor results with the likes of DDG, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Pogba, Bruno, Sancho, CR, Rashford, etc.

Also, he's awful in finals and semis.

It's over. I hope CR starts a coup.

 

[OrcaFat]

as someone working in the film industry I know one thing. you can have the greatest actors in the world in your cast but if the director has no vision you're screwed. it will result in confusion for the actors, some stand out moments, but ultimately a bad film that leaves the audience frustrated or angry. move those same actors to the next project with a great director and they'll win awards. good producers recognise this early and remove the director to save the film. I see a lot of parallels here.

Yeah but one terrible actor can ruin a decent film.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Its not about Ole. The question of players putting in an effort is completely outside the question of who manages the club.

The players play the match. Not the coaching staff. Who sits in the dugout is irrelevant. The idea that fans find excuses for players to just not put a shift in makes my blood boil.

I have a hard time believing you could write this with a straight face. 'Irrelevant'?

Honest question, are you actually in some capacity part of the coaching staff/working for the current club setup? (Also asking because of your ITK behaviour with some transfers)
Because that would kind of explain this stance. Obviously, you don't need to answer to this kind of inquiry, but I've been wondering that.

 

[elmo]

I have a hard time believing you could write this with a straight face. 'Irrelevant'?

Honest question, are you actually in some capacity part of the coaching staff/working for the current club setup? (Also asking because of your ITK behaviour with some transfers)
Because that would kind of explain this stance. Obviously, you don't need to answer to this kind of inquiry, but I've been wondering that.

He's Ole. Explains why he's always on his iPad during the games. He's reading our match day thread

 

[stw2022]

I don't think Ole could ever lose the players in the way some managers do.
He's too nicey in general and doesn't ever dig them out in public.

Or in private I suspect. When does a player ever turn up in second half or next match looking like he’s had rocket strapped to his arse?

The supposed improvement in morale is virtually the only thing the manager has going for him. Why would you risk taking players to task and risking that? We’ll continue to see odd planted PR pieces written by friendly journalists that tell us he rips under performers to shreds at half time though.

Against Leicester he lost his rag so much he almost said something.

 

[Jonathan Brown]

From an outside point of view I can't help but think you have a great squad. Better than most contenders for top 4. But not all. Top 4 should be minimum expectation and Cups a reality. But, I still don't see a strategy or shape to the play. It looks like the team is picked to appease big name players, not tactically.
You could play scintillating football with a more astute manager. Bruce is the answer. ;-)

 

[Dembeza]

Every week one of the players comes out and apologizes for poor performance and promises better the next game.

Every week we are the joke, can something be done.

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[noodlehair]

Good post. Always seems to be so much emphasis on the players letting the manager down as if they're the villains which is just wrong.

If they were moping about then yeah but it just looks like their confidence and belief is gone and half of them are hacked off (as you would be).

It's also hard to blame the players for not performing when there is no bar or standard they have to reach in order to be picked. Matic has not been good enough in years and Martial has an entire calendar year of displays that would get him subbed after half hour at any other top club. Both still get regular games. Both will start a game again within the next 2 weeks.

Meanwhile other players almost never get a look in even if they come in and do better.

What message is this sending the players in terms of effort and performance level?

 

[sp_107]

Sack him. Sack Ole.

Improved squad for the 21-22 season yet it will be worse than 19-20. You can't get these poor results with the likes of DDG, Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Pogba, Bruno, Sancho, CR, Rashford, etc.

Also, he's awful in finals and semis.

It's over. I hope CR starts a coup.

With out CR he could have made better descisions, Looks like CR arrival is forcing Ole to make wrong descisions and putting a lot of pressure on Ole

 

[2 man midfield]

I don’t think he has lost the players, I just don’t think Ole knows how to coach them. The players seem to love him, but tactically/in game I don’t think he has a clue what to say to them. If Ole was prepared to bring in a Queiroz type to do that for him then we could be in business but he’s already got 3 assistants and I can’t see him binning any of them.

 

[Ixion]

Every week one of the players comes out and apologizes for poor performance and promises better the next game.

Every week we are the joke, can something be done.

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We can cut Rashford some slack at least, he came away with some credit. He likely would always have posted about the game given how long he's been out and couldn't just ignore the bad result at the same time.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

With out CR he could have made better descisions, Looks like CR arrival is forcing Ole to make wrong descisions and putting a lot of pressure on Ole

Is this his new excuse? Come on. From Molde and relegating Cardiff to manager of Manchester United. Now it’s Ronaldo fault? He has the best player of the world in his team yet its his fault we play like shite??

 

[matt10000]

I think it's a testament to the players that it's taken this long tbh. My absolute cut off point with Ole was the Sheffield United game last season...

A testament to the players for putting in that performance….…….things aren’t great and the management team must take responsibility but those doesn’t absolve the players, they are the ones on the pitch, they are all professionals, paid a lot of money and should be able to play better than that without being told.

 

[julianfr]

Anyone not playing their heart out are not worthy of wearing the emblem.

...and anyone who thinks the players are the problem is in denial

 

[tomaldinho1]

Do we include the manager and coaching staff in this as well?

Different issue to be fair. No one doubts Ole’s commitment to the cause.

If we re-signed, for example, Borthwick-Jackson I’d have no doubts he loves the club, works hard and tries his best but he simply wouldn’t be good enough.

 

[matt10000]

I don’t think he has lost the players, I just don’t think Ole knows how to coach them. The players seem to love him, but tactically/in game I don’t think he has a clue what to say to them. If Ole was prepared to bring in a Queiroz type to do that for him then we could be in business but he’s already got 3 assistants and I can’t see him binning any of them.

If I was in Ole’s position I would do exactly this. Ole has done a lot that many don’t appreciate on here but everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and management is about recognising that and plugging the gaps

 

[2 man midfield]

If I was in Ole’s position I would do exactly this. Ole has done a lot that many don’t appreciate on here but everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and management is about recognising that and plugging the gaps

Sir Alex was the best at this of course. Makes me wonder whether or not he told him the exact same thing, since he’s surrounded himself with people who can help him in Phelan, Carrick and McKenna, it’s just are they any good? Ultimately we have no idea, but it’s Ole who is being judged so he needs to sort it.

 

[Green_Red]

A lot of something needs to change, we don't know how to fix things, we've been like this for too long.

"Cometh the hour, cometh the man"

When your backs are against the wall and you need someone to step forward and lead you don't shrug your shoulders and say with a smile "maybe I got a few decisions wrong". Worrying approach and mentality. He doesn't look confident at all. Like a little boy being brought before the headmaster.

This team doesn't just need a manager, they need a leader.

I can't believe with the ex players we have that want to get back into the game that he has McKenna, Carrick and some sports science graduate coaching world class footballers who have played and won at the highest level.

Ring Rene Meulensteen, Keane, Scholes, whoever... make something happen and improve what is clearly the problem, the coaching.

I've felt for a while watching Phelan that there appears to be a breakdown between him and Ole. He looks a shadow of his former self, sometimes at the game it looks like he doesn't want to be there. Could just be an overly critical observation bit somethings not right.

 

[Bristol_Red_87]

The arrivals of the likes of Varane and Ronaldo is likely causing issues for Ole now.

These guys are leaders and serial winners and it won't have taken long for them to realise the amateurish state of the side in terms of tactical nous and the like.

How long does it take for divisions to form within the camp? Has it already happened?

Those that know what it takes to compete for the big trophies and realise its not going to happen under the current regime and those who are still willing to employ blind faith and/or don't really care because Ole is a nice bloke and will defend them at all costs?

I hope we can look back in 3-5 years time and appreciate what an important role Ole had in helping to nurture and rebuild a side that have gone on to win titles under an elite manager..

 

[Legend16]

Yeah but one terrible actor can ruin a decent film.

yes.

 

[Red Dreams]

The parasites wont sack him until it is not possible to get top 4.
Even if get mauled by Liverpool.
They wont want to pay his contract out.

My ideal manager to replace him would be Mancini.
He took a team that did not qualify for the world cup and won the Euros they last won in 1968 playing high octane football even with a misfiring striker.
Unfortunately he is with Italy until 2026.

 

[OrcaFat]

The parasites wont sack him until it is not possible to get top 4.
Even if get mauled by Liverpool.
They wont want to pay his contract out.

My ideal manager to replace him would be Mancini.
He took a team that did not qualify for the world cup and won the Euros they last won in 1968 playing high octane football even with a misfiring striker.
Unfortunately he is with Italy until 2026.

They won’t want to pay his contract out but there is a point where the credibility of the board will suffer. If we get a proper hammering v Liv say 4-0, that will be extraordinary-board-meeting territory.

Mancini is a decent shout, by the way.

 

[stefan92]

The arrivals of the likes of Varane and Ronaldo is likely causing issues for Ole now.

These guys are leaders and serial winners and it won't have taken long for them to realise the amateurish state of the side in terms of tactical nous and the like.

How long does it take for divisions to form within the camp? Has it already happened?

I agree with this, but I think you can also include Sancho here, at least a little bit, as he just lead Dortmund to a DFB Cup win (and yes, he acted like a leader during that run)

 

[Legend16]

simply cannot allow someone with such limited ability to lead some outstanding players. the likes of Varane, Ronaldo, Bruno etc will only tolerate this for so long. The owners may want to persist with Ole but as with any club where the manager is lacking, the players will see them out the door. Sad for Ole. But its just reality

 

[kouroux]

Every week one of the players comes out and apologizes for poor performance and promises better the next game.

Every week we are the joke, can something be done.

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The whole apologies they keep posting are so unnecessaries.

 

[croadyman]

Given how daft our board is, it legit will need a player mutiny to get him sacked

Yeah you are spot on

 

[croadyman]

The writing is on the wall but it will be a long goodbye, as it was with Mourinho after Sevilla.

Yeah only reason he hasn't lost the players yet is due to him not having a toxic personality, however that Jose at Anfield moment is coming but may not until later in the season when we are out of Champions League and way off the pace

 

[Andersonson]

Not surprised you can't see it is arguably the best squad in the league. They perform so poorly that by now you probably think Ferran Torres is better than Ronaldo, Dias is better than Varane and Robertson is better than Shaw. Oh and Kovacic is surely better than Pogba, whereas Bruno can't lace Mount's boots. The only positions we are not the strongest in are CDM and RB. All other players we have are right up there. No team in the league has as much quality in the attacking positions as we do.

Robertson isnt better than Shaw?
Trent isn't better that AWB?
Virgil isn't better than Maguire or Varane?
Fabinho isn't better than Scott?
Keita or Hendo isn't better Fred?
Mane isn't better than Greenwood?
Salah isn't better than Rashford or Sancho?

You could do the same with City and they will have 6/7 or players that would go straight into our team.

 

[noodlehair]

A testament to the players for putting in that performance….…….things aren’t great and the management team must take responsibility but those doesn’t absolve the players, they are the ones on the pitch, they are all professionals, paid a lot of money and should be able to play better than that without being told.

I'm not sure what you'd base that on. We very rarely don't play terribly with Matic and pogba as a midfield combo, and we doubly can't get away with it now we have Ronaldo who isn't going to press. Then on top of that we had someone who wasn't fit at centreback. Players don't very often just deliberately not try to win games

 

[Robbie Boy]

Given how daft our board is, it legit will need a player mutiny to get him sacked

I can't see an all out mutiny, to be honest. But I think player power will put a massive amount of pressure on him. We have some huge personalities in the dressing room, and when they lose confidence in him, he's gone. I don't think it's quite happened yet, but I imagine the wheels are certainly in motion.