The manager has lost the players

[Robbie Boy]

Yes they should be criticized for not playing well enough.

Can er stop making excuses for the players on the pitch?

You keep pushing this strawman narrative that the players aren't being criticised. Unfortunately, as has always been the case, the buck stops with the manager. Ultimately, these players are clearly better than they're showing, and Ole is responsible for getting the best out of them. If he can't do that, he goes. The same as Lampard with Chelsea...

 

[Hughie77]

Lots of comparison with Lampard at Chelsea, I agree it's very much the same , UTD need to get a manager who Manages, I can't believe olly plays A CB who's trained 1 day after injury. That's a cop out for me knowing that there were 2 match fit CB to play. This shows to me he's protecting himself rather than the best for the team.

Maguire says I'm fit , olly should say OK but your not playing Sat , you can get a few more training sessions in then we see.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Its not about Ole. The question of players putting in an effort is completely outside the question of who manages the club.

The players play the match. Not the coaching staff. Who sits in the dugout is irrelevant. The idea that fans find excuses for players to just not put a shift in makes my blood boil.

Pardon?

The man makes some good points.

 

[Red Dreams]

What does it say to Bailly when the manager plays an unfit player when he should not have played?
And Maguire does not deserve to be captain saying he is fit to play after a day's training.
This is about the team not Maguire.
Why would Lingard sign an extension? Ole plays his favorites all the time.

Ole holding up his hands does not make us respect him one bit more.
Not the first time right?
Sending Fred out for the second half when he got lucky with the yellow. Remember?
Then admitting it was a mistake after he got sent off.

We play 4-2-1-3
Pogba can never be part of the two midfielders in front of the defence.
He simply loses the ball far too much.

Matic, Donny, McT and Fred are the ones that can play there.
Pogba can play on the left or in Bruno's position. So can Donny.

We lost because we effectively did not have a midfield and we were handicapped by an unfit CB.

This is pure incompetence and an immediate sackable offence.

He is a disgrace.

 

[tenpoless]

Its not about Ole. The question of players putting in an effort is completely outside the question of who manages the club.

The players play the match. Not the coaching staff. Who sits in the dugout is irrelevant. The idea that fans find excuses for players to just not put a shift in makes my blood boil.

Sell all of them 23-25 players and rebuild.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Is there ANY chance the Saudis have watched a Utd game and thought “lets get that Ole guy in” ?

 

[croadyman]

Not sure if he has lost the dressing room, but the new players, especially Ronaldo and Varane would probably be thinking what they entered into after this shambles.

Pogba openly calling out that there are issues. Only a matter of time before players like Bruno and Sancho get more frustrated too. I think most of our English players (Maguire, Rashford, AWB, Shaw, Greenwood) are still with the manager though.

Oh yeah make no mistake AWB is dreading a change of manager but don't worry Aaron the board is weak

 

[pocco]

Seeing Pogba publicly set about Ole makes me think the sentiment will definitely run deeper in the squad. Pogba is close with a lot of players and Bruno is one of them, too. Between them they'll be questioning everything right now.

In terms of performances, you'll see effort early in games but if we go behind then that's when you'll know if they've fully downed tools. If there's no fight and almost a willingness to let the opposition win then you know at that point that it's curtains.

 

[Will Singh]

If the players ain’t playing for him and think they can bully Ole out of a job then we need to start getting rid of these players as well as Ole. Ole is out of he’s depth without a shadow of doubt but the players wear a United shirt not a Ole shirt if there’s any players not giving it 100% then feck them too!

 

[stefan92]

If the players ain’t playing for him and think they can bully Ole out of a job then we need to start getting rid of these players as well as Ole. Ole is out of he’s depth without a shadow of doubt but the players wear a United shirt not a Ole shirt if there’s any players not giving it 100% then feck them too!

But a 100% of what? What should a player do who does not get clear instructions? Run around like a headless chicken to show "he gives 100%"? These are professionals that know that this would be useless at this level. When you don't trust in what you do, you lose your drive to do it, that is absolutely human and happens everywhere.

You need to be convinced by what you are doing to do it well, it is as simple as that.

 

[VidaRed]

One wonders what the players must be messaging in there unofficial whatsapp senior players group. If screenshots ever got leaked it would be a huge scandal.

 

[Gazza]

Its not about Ole. The question of players putting in an effort is completely outside the question of who manages the club.

The players play the match. Not the coaching staff. Who sits in the dugout is irrelevant. The idea that fans find excuses for players to just not put a shift in makes my blood boil.

This is peak cult follower stuff. Ole uber alles!

 

[Sky1981]

Absolutely agreed.

One of the biggest point in Ole's tenue was his players always were fully behind him. Until this season when we signed Ronaldo back.

I said in another thread that he should man up and bench Ronaldo, play Cavani. Do the right things to get his players back on his side, show them at least he has the balls. No one is bigger than the team and everyone must work their ass off for others. Then maybe maybe he'd save himself. He won't survive next year anyway if things continue this way.

Ronaldo isnt a problem. Or the problem.

Any other manager worthy of their trait would rub their hands getting ronaldo and tweak and design how to make good use of the GOAT. If you put him there without any tweak then what do you expect?

Every manager that managed ronaldo won something with him, or at least helped by his game. If Ole is the only manager being hampered by him then it shows exactly that he's the problem.

 

[Tom Cato]

This is peak cult follower stuff. Ole uber alles!

I'm sorry, but what exactly is controversial about demanding that the players on the pitch play their hearts out?

 

[padzilla]

There's a wider problem than Ole in terms of the culture of the club because we have had these problems with every manager since Fergie left, the players don't perform, Ole is not blameless though, in fact he has the best squad since Fergie left and seems incapable of turning the ship around.
Whoever takes over needs to have a big personality without taking on a scorched earth approach - think more Klopp than Mourinho.

 

[golden_blunder]

Robertson isnt better than Shaw?
Trent isn't better that AWB?
Virgil isn't better than Maguire or Varane?
Fabinho isn't better than Scott?
Keita or Hendo isn't better Fred?
Mane isn't better than Greenwood?
Salah isn't better than Rashford or Sancho?

You could do the same with City and they will have 6/7 or players that would go straight into our team.

Shaw and Greenwood

though I think many of our players would like world class if Klopp was coaching

 

[IhabX7]

I'm sorry, but what exactly is controversial about demanding that the players on the pitch play their hearts out?

Hard to do when they don't believe in the manager.

 

[DreadnoughtRS88]

Robertson isnt better than Shaw?
Trent isn't better that AWB?
Virgil isn't better than Maguire or Varane?
Fabinho isn't better than Scott?
Keita or Hendo isn't better Fred?
Mane isn't better than Greenwood?
Salah isn't better than Rashford or Sancho?

You could do the same with City and they will have 6/7 or players that would go straight into our team.

I clearly said 'squad'. Also, it's unfair you are comparing Liverpool MFs with Fred and McTominay. Compare Henderson and Keita with Matic and Pogba, which is the best pairing we have, and you get a different picture.

No, Robertson isn't better than Shaw, he is put in the position to seem more valuable because he plays in a better setup under a manager who knows his qualities and deficiencies, i.e. the manager who is not an amateur like Ole.

Varane and Maguire as a pairing is as good, if not better than VVD and Matip/Gomez. Squad-wise, Liverpool's quality mostly ends with their XI. We have Martial, Lingard, Sancho, Greenwood, Bruno, Ronaldo, even Pogba, van de Beek, all in the rotation for the front positions. City don't have as many quality players in the attacking rotation. They are playing a natural RB at LB and while Dias is top class, the other CB is nowhere near consistent or good enough.

 

[sugar_kane]

There's a wider problem than Ole in terms of the culture of the club because we have had these problems with every manager since Fergie left, the players don't perform, Ole is not blameless though, in fact he has the best squad since Fergie left and seems incapable of turning the ship around.
Whoever takes over needs to have a big personality without taking on a scorched earth approach - think more Klopp than Mourinho.

Rewarding mediocre players with lucrative contracts is probably a big part of it, as well as rewarding youth players with similar after a handful of good games.

It sounds overly simplistic, but I honestly think we change this and it solves some of the bigger problems around culture.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Its not about Ole. The question of players putting in an effort is completely outside the question of who manages the club.

The players play the match. Not the coaching staff. Who sits in the dugout is irrelevant. The idea that fans find excuses for players to just not put a shift in makes my blood boil.

When so many players have been underperforming as a team for so long, it has to be fully on the manager.

And don’t forget we also have probably the biggest squad in the league, and probably in Europe too. Players out of form should be least of our issue.

De Gea
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Mctominay Pogba
Greenwood Bruno Rashford
Ronaldo

Henderson
Dalot Lindelof Bailly Telles
Fred Matic
Sancho VDB Lingard
Cavani

Grant
Laird Jones Tuanzebe Williams
Garner Mejbri
Diallo Mata Pellistri
Martial​

If we can’t field a functioning 11 out of these 3 teams of players, and especially after 3 years of testing/building, our manager should really need to have a good look at himself. Perhaps managing and coaching a football team isn’t a thing for him.

 

[dove]

I'm sorry, but what exactly is controversial about demanding that the players on the pitch play their hearts out?

Players need guidance which we quite clearly have none as our manager is usually too busy watching the TV in his seat.

 

[Real Name]

Maguire wasnt fit?

Also VDB situation is a complete madness.

Also Pogba's post match interview was quite telling.

 

[justsomebloke]

Ronaldo isnt a problem. Or the problem.

Any other manager worthy of their trait would rub their hands getting ronaldo and tweak and design how to make good use of the GOAT. If you put him there without any tweak then what do you expect?

Every manager that managed ronaldo won something with him, or at least helped by his game. If Ole is the only manager being hampered by him then it shows exactly that he's the problem.

That's way too simple. It is also pointless and futile to debate this as if it either was a question of Ronaldo or the fault of the manager.

Approaching this as identifying a problem rather than quarreling about who's the blame, it is obvious that Ronaldo brings some challenges to the table. Not because he plays badly, but because of what he requires from the rest of the team and our difficulties in meeting that requirement.

Most obviously, he doesn't press. So far this season, Wilfried Zaha has the most presses among forwards with 20 per 90. Ronaldo has the fewest with 2.7. Allan St. Maximin has the second fewest with 5.2. In other words, he does half as much pressing as the second worst pressing forward in the PL. There's a good article in the Athletic aboout this today. When one of three forwards basically doesn't press, that rather limits your potential for high pressing. If opposition ball carriers aren't being pressed and passing lanes aren't being cut or limited, that puts an inordinate amount of pressure on the midfield duo, which isn't that great to begin with. It also looks to me like we are overly focused on getting the ball to him offensively, to the detriment of our overall attacking game (which will be a familiar complaint from Juventus). It is beginning to look quite apparent that we have too many offensive players who need to be in leading roles to be fully effective, and too few who are suited to complement the luminaries.

However, the issues go well beyond that and extend to things that definitely should be fixable by the coaching staff. We're just a mess, without the ball in particular. We don't play a pressing game but we don't play a compact controlling game either. There's no sense players know where to be or what to do.

I didn't think bringing in Ronaldo was a smart move this summer, and I still don't. I think doing so has made us worse rather than better, so far. Partly that is because we do not really have room for another player who needs things organised around him. Mainly it is because the challenges it was clear and obvious that he would bring have not been solved by the coaching staff.

 

[Tom Cato]

Hard to do when they don't believe in the manager.

I'm sorry, I didn't know that management dictates how much you're willing to run.

This isn't even a discussion about the coaching staff. If players are being lazy on the pitch they don't deserve a slot in the starting 11, period.

 

[stefan92]

I'm sorry, I didn't know that management dictates how much you're willing to run.

This isn't even a discussion about the coaching staff. If players are being lazy on the pitch they don't deserve a slot in the starting 11, period.

I repeat my question: In which direction do you want a player to run, when he has got no order from the coach what he should do?

 

[Andersonson]

Shaw and Greenwood

though I think many of our players would like world class if Klopp was coaching

Shaw vs Robertson - I think only a united fan would choose Shaw, and thats says it all really. Robertson's numbers speaks for it self in this "contest"
Greenwood is an amazing talent, but again, he wouldn't play ahead of Mane or Salah, no chance.

 

[Sky1981]

That's way too simple. It is also pointless and futile to debate this as if it either was a question of Ronaldo or the fault of the manager.

Approaching this as identifying a problem rather than quarreling about who's the blame, it is obvious that Ronaldo brings some challenges to the table. Not because he plays badly, but because of what he requires from the rest of the team and our difficulties in meeting that requirement.

Most obviously, he doesn't press. So far this season, Wilfried Zaha has the most presses among forwards with 20 per 90. Ronaldo has the fewest with 2.7. Allan St. Maximin has the second fewest with 5.2. In other words, he does half as much pressing as the second worst pressing forward in the PL. There's a good article in the Athletic aboout this today. When one of three forwards basically doesn't press, that rather limits your potential for high pressing. If opposition ball carriers aren't being pressed and passing lanes aren't being cut or limited, that puts an inordinate amount of pressure on the midfield duo, which isn't that great to begin with. It also looks to me like we are overly focused on getting the ball to him offensively, to the detriment of our overall attacking game (which will be a familiar complaint from Juventus). It is beginning to look quite apparent that we have too many offensive players who need to be in leading roles to be fully effective, and too few who are suited to complement the luminaries.

However, the issues go well beyond that and extend to things that definitely should be fixable by the coaching staff. We're just a mess, without the ball in particular. We don't play a pressing game but we don't play a compact controlling game either. There's no sense players know where to be or what to do.

I didn't think bringing in Ronaldo was a smart move this summer, and I still don't. I think doing so has made us worse rather than better, so far. Partly that is because we do not really have room for another player who needs things organised around him. Mainly it is because the challenges it was clear and obvious that he would bring have not been solved by the coaching staff.

Ronaldo doesnt press because most manager worth their salt would keep him fresh and lurking because that's when he's the most dangerous and the whole sum of him not pressing is greater than otherwise.

Ole is too clueless to work the other 9 outfield player to make use of our most potent weapon.

It's like using a surgeon knife to cut a sirloin and blaming the knife for not big enough and sharp enogh.

 

[Pintu]

I'm sorry, I didn't know that management dictates how much you're willing to run.

This isn't even a discussion about the coaching staff. If players are being lazy on the pitch they don't deserve a slot in the starting 11, period.

The manager has to provide a setup to make them run efficiently. Even during the game, the strategy needs to be adapted throughout.

"Willing to run" doesn't mean much if you don't know the directions you are running to. If a player given these instructions doesn't deliver the commitment they are supposed to, then of course they shouldn't be starting. And that again is the manager's responsibility. He is the one picking up the starting eleven and making the substitutions.


Check this, with far poorer players.
https://runningtheshowblog.wordpres...tes-flexible-defensive-tactics-against-spain/

 

[Sky1981]

Rewarding mediocre players with lucrative contracts is probably a big part of it, as well as rewarding youth players with similar after a handful of good games.

It sounds overly simplistic, but I honestly think we change this and it solves some of the bigger problems around culture.

We are guilty of that as fans. Although we dont put in the paper for them to sign our general feeling translate to the management. No doubt our views here are noticed by the higher ups.

How we tolerate players like anthony lazy man martial and players like lingard because he dabs, and how high we though perreira would reach making them overhyped.

It's off course the manager job to prove us wrong but it's hard to go against the flow (jose tried wirh martial) when we all pick the other side.

 

[golden_blunder]

Shaw vs Robertson - I think only a united fan would choose Shaw, and thats says it all really. Robertson's numbers speaks for it self in this "contest"
Greenwood is an amazing talent, but again, he wouldn't play ahead of Mane or Salah, no chance.

I think Shaw is a better all round player (not at his best this season so far)
Greenwood I think would clock up big numbers for Liverpool under the current coach, and you’d forget Mane

 

[Andersonson]

I clearly said 'squad'. Also, it's unfair you are comparing Liverpool MFs with Fred and McTominay. Compare Henderson and Keita with Matic and Pogba, which is the best pairing we have, and you get a different picture.

No, Robertson isn't better than Shaw, he is put in the position to seem more valuable because he plays in a better setup under a manager who knows his qualities and deficiencies, i.e. the manager who is not an amateur like Ole.

Varane and Maguire as a pairing is as good, if not better than VVD and Matip/Gomez. Squad-wise, Liverpool's quality mostly ends with their XI. We have Martial, Lingard, Sancho, Greenwood, Bruno, Ronaldo, even Pogba, van de Beek, all in the rotation for the front positions. City don't have as many quality players in the attacking rotation. They are playing a natural RB at LB and while Dias is top class, the other CB is nowhere near consistent or good enough.

I hugely disagree. Varane and Maguire hasnt been anywhere near Matip/VVD. Our one clean sheet states that. Hasnt it been for De Gea our goal difference would be even worse.
And only a united fan would rate Shaw above Robertson. A neutral one would take Robertson 9/10 times.
And having Martial, de Beek and Lingard as backup isnt really saying much. Van de Beek has never proved himself in the prem. And saying thats because of the manager is only speculation.

Both Pool and City has a better team than us, but we've closed the gap. But some of you lot are overrating our players and underrating Pool and City's

 

[Andersonson]

I think Shaw is a better all round player (not at his best this season so far)
Greenwood I think would clock up big numbers for Liverpool under the current coach, and you’d forget Mane

I dont agree, i think Robbo is quite better.

And I agree on Mason, he could do good anywhere, but as of now Mane is better and he scored alot of goals. Mason could develop to be better, but he isnt as of now.

 

[golden_blunder]

I dont agree, i think Robbo is quite better.

And I agree on Mason, he could do good anywhere, but as of now Mane is better and he scored alot of goals. Mason could develop to be better, but he isnt as of now.

I rate Robertson (I started a thread when he was at Hull and said he reminded me of Irwin), but I think last season Shaw was by far the best in the league if not Europe and has started not so good so far this term. I also think Shaw would benefit hugely under klopps system

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I hugely disagree. Varane and Maguire hasnt been anywhere near Matip/VVD. Our one clean sheet states that. Hasnt it been for De Gea our goal difference would be even worse.
And only a united fan would rate Shaw above Robertson. A neutral one would take Robertson 9/10 times.
And having Martial, de Beek and Lingard as backup isnt really saying much. Van de Beek has never proved himself in the prem. And saying thats because of the manager is only speculation.

Both Pool and City has a better team than us, but we've closed the gap. But some of you lot are overrating our players and underrating Pool and City's

As always, a top class manager elevates everybody's impression of a squad. A lot of our players are considered inferior than they would be were they managed by someone as good as Klopp. Surely that doesn't mean that Lindelof would become as good as VVD but it makes a huge difference.

 

[GazTheLegend]

@golden_blunder Rashfords camp came out and slated Solskjaer for mentioning his need to prioritise football. That wouldn't be interesting other than the timing of it. To be fair there was no need for Ole to say anything publically and probably not privately either. Rashfords ran through walls for us and England, but all this does add more fuel to the fire.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The whole apologies they keep posting are so unnecessaries.

I am not going to hammer Marcus for the apology, he can hold his head high this week but agree if it is a one off performance then OK. It is the fact we have had one good performance all season, the apologies week after week begin to wear thin. Sometimes it is better to stay off social media.

 

[justsomebloke]

Ronaldo doesnt press because most manager worth their salt would keep him fresh and lurking because that's when he's the most dangerous and the whole sum of him not pressing is greater than otherwise.

Ole is too clueless to work the other 9 outfield player to make use of our most potent weapon.

It's like using a surgeon knife to cut a sirloin and blaming the knife for not big enough and sharp enogh.

OK, I'll try again. If you could wrest yourself free from the notion that these are mutually exclusive explanations where the cause of the trouble has to be either totally the one or totally the other, perhaps you could see that Ronaldo's lack of pressing and backtracking does present a problem for any team he plays for, and that the coaching staff needs to solve that problem. Given our other limitations - particularly our shortcomings in the midfield - we are probably in a worse position to solve that problem than quite a few other top teams might be, and I remain unconvinced that we were wise to put ourselves in that position. On the other hand, it's hard not to feel the coaching staff should have done a considerably better job fixing it than they have.

Personally, I really don't see any obvious way to do it, except that it surely must be possible to whip a bit more structure into how we act when we don't have the ball. If you consider formational adjustments, such as a switch to 433 or Chelsea's 3421, you quickly run into pretty hefty objections in terms of having suitable personnel (and being able to play the players you need to play). I'm suspecting that at least one of our undroppables is going to have to sit for any solution to work. Most likely Pogba.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Pardon?

The man makes some good points.

Obviously Newcastle are going to sack all their players and keep Steve Bruce as it is all the players fault. Actually they will likely all be goners. The buck stops with the manager, otherwise why have a manager and coaches, the players can just pick the team and tactics.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

If there really are players not giving 100% it'd suggest perhaps the 'cultural reboot' has failed?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

@golden_blunder Rashfords camp came out and slated Solskjaer for mentioning his need to prioritise football. That wouldn't be interesting other than the timing of it. To be fair there was no need for Ole to say anything publically and probably not privately either. Rashfords ran through walls for us and England, but all this does add more fuel to the fire.

You wonder if this is a something that has been building. If Marcus feels his fitness has not been managed well, despite what Ole has been coming out with. Some of these players have kept him in a job up to now.