The Martinez red card

lex talionis said:
What's done is done, but based on what I've read in the Laws and having reviewed the video numerous times I actually believe that the appeal will be successful in getting the match ban down from 3 games to 1 game.

Martinez grabbed DCL's manbun but he let go of it before any yanking occurred.
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I don’t believe so.

It’s a rule that’s been introduced because it was happening in the women’s game (as obviously more of the players have long hair).

It seems very clear, and unfortunately the punishment is 3 games. I can’t see any other outcome than the appeal being rejected.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I don’t believe so.

It’s a rule that’s been introduced because it was happening in the women’s game (as obviously more of the players have long hair).

It seems very clear, and unfortunately the punishment is 3 games. I can’t see any other outcome than the appeal being rejected.
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It's a really close call. The grab is evident, but there was no pulling back of the manbun. And in fact Martinez let go of the manbun before he could commit a violent offense. Perhaps the odds are that the 3 game ban will stand, but we shouldn't be shocked if it's reduced to a 1 game ban.
 
DCL went from the start of the game elbowing our players but not one yellow card for him.
I read somewhere that we have never won a game under Paul Tierney - is this true as I can't believe it?
 
christinaa said:
DCL went from the start of the game elbowing our players but not one yellow card for him.
I read somewhere that we have never won a game under Paul Tierney - is this true as I can't believe it?
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There was a silly amount of that. Even late in the game he went up for a header against Ugarte (I think) and had no intention of playing the ball. Instead looked over his shoulder twice with the sole ambition of seeing where the United player was so he could elbow him in the ribs.
 
I keep seeing people compare this one to the Michael Keane one when they are totally different. Keane’s was a blatant and lengthy pull, at a distant from the player and he was barely challenging and not jumping for a header with a forearm across his face.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I don’t believe so.

It’s a rule that’s been introduced because it was happening in the women’s game (as obviously more of the players have long hair).

It seems very clear, and unfortunately the punishment is 3 games. I can’t see any other outcome than the appeal being rejected.
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Can you please quote the law that you're referring to as being very clear?
 
Parma Dewol said:
There was a silly amount of that. Even late in the game he went up for a header against Ugarte (I think) and had no intention of playing the ball. Instead looked over his shoulder twice with the sole ambition of seeing where the United player was so he could elbow him in the ribs.
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We've recently watched Dan Burn elbow Luke Shaw not once, but twice, in the face without any VAR intervention. As if they'd fecking intervene on an elbow to the ribs :lol:

 
Anustart89 said:
Can you please quote the law that you're referring to as being very clear?
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Law 12 – Fouls and Misconduct.

Hair pulling is treated as:

  • Violent conduct (if off the ball or excessive force), or
  • Serious foul play (if during a challenge)
Under Law 12, a player must be sent off (red card) for:

  • Violent conduct – using excessive force or brutality against an opponent
Pulling someone’s hair is considered:

  • Deliberate
  • Dangerous / aggressive
  • Not a legitimate attempt to play the ball
Here is a quick ChatGPT

I think it’s soft, but also, wtf are you doing Martinez, why even do it
 
It would be extremely petty, but I'd be all in giving each player an Alice band to wear and instruct them whenever it's knocked off to fall to the floor holding their face
 
Oscar Bonavena said:
Yes, but it was not the "definite" Red card that some people on here seem to think it was.
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The original fault is with Martinez
VAR is a shit show so don’t give them any reason other than challenging for the ball
Also embarrassing pulling hair
 
SirScholes said:
Law 12 – Fouls and Misconduct.

Hair pulling is treated as:

  • Violent conduct (if off the ball or excessive force), or
  • Serious foul play (if during a challenge)
Under Law 12, a player must be sent off (red card) for:

  • Violent conduct – using excessive force or brutality against an opponent
Pulling someone’s hair is considered:

  • Deliberate
  • Dangerous / aggressive
  • Not a legitimate attempt to play the ball
Here is a quick ChatGPT

I think it’s soft, but also, wtf are you doing Martinez, why even do it
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That's ChatGPT's interpretation of the law.

The law itself makes no actual mention of hair pulling (go to laws of the game, ctrl+f "hair" finds nothing, and the guidance we've seen on hair pulls says that a player who 1) isn't challenging for the ball has to 2) make a clear pulling action 3) with force for it to be a red. Even a slap in the face (which is anatomically mentioned in the laws) makes a mention of it not being a red if the force is negligible, which was clearly the case here. 1 and 3 clearly don't apply to Martinez and 2 is debatable

So the notion that the law is very clear is plainly wrong and the guidance doesn't apply to the Martinez situation for it to be a "clear red card", especially since we've seen much more violent pulls being pulled up by VAR and been given yellows, only to be defended by Howard Webb.
 
There’s no force in the pull, Licha never took his eyes off the ball. He probably realised he got a fistful of hair and let go.
 
Anustart89 said:
That's ChatGPT's interpretation of the law.

The law itself makes no actual mention of hair pulling (go to laws of the game, ctrl+f "hair" finds nothing, and the guidance we've seen on hair pulls says that a player who 1) isn't challenging for the ball has to 2) make a clear pulling action 3) with force for it to be a red. Even a slap in the face (which is anatomically mentioned in the laws) makes a mention of it not being a red if the force is negligible, which was clearly the case here. 1 and 3 clearly don't apply to Martinez and 2 is debatable

So the notion that the law is very clear is plainly wrong and the guidance doesn't apply to the Martinez situation for it to be a "clear red card", especially since we've seen much more violent pulls being pulled up by VAR and been given yellows, only to be defended by Howard Webb.
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I mean he clearly tries to pull his hair. He’s an idiot and I hope he apologised to everyone
 
SirScholes said:
I mean he clearly tries to pull his hair. He’s an idiot and I hope he apologised to everyone
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I think if he was trying to pull hair...he'd have actually pulled it...instead he was both arms out mid air trying to get a header while getting a hand/arm to the face/neck by DCL. Anyone mid air getting pushed back starts to fall back and the human reaction is to catch your balance. I didn't see any actual pull and he had every opportunity to do so if he had wanted.
 
Watching this today with missus, she said il burn my bra in protest, i said which one, i didnt even care and also didnt know she had more than one
 
Its a complete and utter disgrace in reality, yes yes the rules are there but he tugged his bloody pony tail bobbin off him. Lewin didn't even fall to the ground. Game is gone and not enjoyable anymore.
 
Anustart89 said:
We've recently watched Dan Burn elbow Luke Shaw not once, but twice, in the face without any VAR intervention. As if they'd fecking intervene on an elbow to the ribs :lol:

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I remember watching that and the commentator excusing it on the grounds of Burn being very tall. The BS level is astonishing when they explain away bad decisions against us. What the feck does being tall have to do with him swinging his elbows?
 
Played CB for 20 years at shit tier level football and managed to never grab an opponents hair once. Not that difficult to avoid.

Soft as shit, and it does very much feel like a red on a technicality. It was a bit cringe hearing the ref state "pulled his hair"
 
lex talionis said:
It's a really close call. The grab is evident, but there was no pulling back of the manbun. And in fact Martinez let go of the manbun before he could commit a violent offense. Perhaps the odds are that the 3 game ban will stand, but we shouldn't be shocked if it's reduced to a 1 game ban.
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He did pull his head back OR Lewin was smart enough to make a big deal out of it. The thing is, it's impossible to tell exactly what hapenned and how much force was applied, therefore it's a very easy decision to make for the ref. Otherwise, he would allow to run around and grab DCL hair bun as long as it's soft. Unfortunately, the clip also shows they are spinning with the hair grabbed by Martinez so it was not just a touch.

Anustart89 said:
Can you please quote the law that you're referring to as being very clear?
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Anustart89 said:
That's ChatGPT's interpretation of the law.

The law itself makes no actual mention of hair pulling (go to laws of the game, ctrl+f "hair" finds nothing, and the guidance we've seen on hair pulls says that a player who 1) isn't challenging for the ball has to 2) make a clear pulling action 3) with force for it to be a red. Even a slap in the face (which is anatomically mentioned in the laws) makes a mention of it not being a red if the force is negligible, which was clearly the case here. 1 and 3 clearly don't apply to Martinez and 2 is debatable

So the notion that the law is very clear is plainly wrong and the guidance doesn't apply to the Martinez situation for it to be a "clear red card", especially since we've seen much more violent pulls being pulled up by VAR and been given yellows, only to be defended by Howard Webb.
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Are we using different sources of the law? What are you referring to?

https://www.premierleague.com/en/news/4079974
-make a clear action to pull the hair of an opponent or any other person with force
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Bobski said:
Played CB for 20 years at shit tier level football and managed to never grab an opponents hair once. Not that difficult to avoid.

Soft as shit, and it does very much feel like a red on a technicality. It was a bit cringe hearing the ref state "pulled his hair"
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This is exactly what it is, red card on a technicality. People are obsessed with analyzing how much force was used in this and other cases, but DCL head was clearly pulled back by Martinez, therefore it's a pretty straightforward case. Doesn't matter if it's soft or not. Those rules are implemented to avoid situations like following players (also women) with longer hair and pulling them, I can't understand why people don't see it and what would've hapenned if this rule wasn't in place. Also, I have not seen any other case like that (bun being pulled), so surely it doesn't happen that often, and yet people want to convince it was accidental pull by Martinez? He knew exactly what he was doing and will serve 3 games ban.
 
*The decision of the referee was based on IFAB Law 12 which provides for actions around violent conduct. Under violent conduct, the official guidance specifically states that a player must be sent off if they make a clear action to pull the hair of an opponent or any other person with force.*
*The broader definition adds that violent conduct is any use or attempt to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, regardless of whether contact is made.*
*That is not referee opinion. That is the written law.*
*The word that carries everything here is force. A forceful pull is a mandatory red card. A softer tug sits in the referee's discretion, unsporting behaviour, yellow card territory.*
*The referee yesterday judged that force was present and applied the law accordingly.*
*You can disagree with his assessment of force. You cannot disagree that the law exists.*
*(Source : Ajoje [isreal_ajoje on X ]A FIFA Licensed Agent and International Sports Lawyer)*
 
SirScholes said:
The original fault is with Martinez
VAR is a shit show so don’t give them any reason other than challenging for the ball
Also embarrassing pulling hair
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You are correct, providing we ignore the inconsistency of the application of the violent conduct rules.

If Dan Burn can pop his elbow joint into Luke Shaw’s cranium without intervention, then Lisandro can’t get done for anything other than sexual assault due to the foreplay he engaged with DCL.
 
terraloo said:
*The decision of the referee was based on IFAB Law 12 which provides for actions around violent conduct. Under violent conduct, the official guidance specifically states that a player must be sent off if they make a clear action to pull the hair of an opponent or any other person with force.*
*The broader definition adds that violent conduct is any use or attempt to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, regardless of whether contact is made.*
*That is not referee opinion. That is the written law.*
*The word that carries everything here is force. A forceful pull is a mandatory red card. A softer tug sits in the referee's discretion, unsporting behaviour, yellow card territory.*
*The referee yesterday judged that force was present and applied the law accordingly.*
*You can disagree with his assessment of force. You cannot disagree that the law exists.*
*(Source : Ajoje [isreal_ajoje on X ]A FIFA Licensed Agent and International Sports Lawyer)*
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The one thing that isn’t up for sensible debate is ‘with force.’

There’s been a few hair pulls ‘with force’ in the past few years. Some of those haven’t even seen red.

It seems only oppo fans or weirdly united fans who dislike Martinez have lost the ability to consider what a forceful hairpul would look like. Sheesh.
 
terraloo said:
*The decision of the referee was based on IFAB Law 12 which provides for actions around violent conduct. Under violent conduct, the official guidance specifically states that a player must be sent off if they make a clear action to pull the hair of an opponent or any other person with force.*
*The broader definition adds that violent conduct is any use or attempt to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, regardless of whether contact is made.*
*That is not referee opinion. That is the written law.*
*The word that carries everything here is force. A forceful pull is a mandatory red card. A softer tug sits in the referee's discretion, unsporting behaviour, yellow card territory.*
*The referee yesterday judged that force was present and applied the law accordingly.*
*You can disagree with his assessment of force. You cannot disagree that the law exists.*
*(Source : Ajoje [isreal_ajoje on X ]A FIFA Licensed Agent and International Sports Lawyer)*
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Or you could even disagree that they weren't challenging for the ball... because they were, hence why they're both looking at the ball and Martinez is jumping while Calvert-Lewin is spamming elbows.
 
It's a nonsense red card BUT the root cause is again Martinez just being too small for the position. He's struggling with DCL and grabbing anything he can to compensate.

Same goes for how he injured his knee last time. He was overcompensating for struggling physically.

We'll always have this with Martinez. He's dodged a few red cards before when he's making up for being small and one paced.

Despite being a very good footballer.
 
Borys said:
He did pull his head back OR Lewin was smart enough to make a big deal out of it. The thing is, it's impossible to tell exactly what hapenned and how much force was applied, therefore it's a very easy decision to make for the ref. Otherwise, he would allow to run around and grab DCL hair bun as long as it's soft. Unfortunately, the clip also shows they are spinning with the hair grabbed by Martinez so it was not just a touch.



Are we using different sources of the law? What are you referring to?

https://www.premierleague.com/en/news/4079974



This is exactly what it is, red card on a technicality. People are obsessed with analyzing how much force was used in this and other cases, but DCL head was clearly pulled back by Martinez, therefore it's a pretty straightforward case. Doesn't matter if it's soft or not. Those rules are implemented to avoid situations like following players (also women) with longer hair and pulling them, I can't understand why people don't see it and what would've hapenned if this rule wasn't in place. Also, I have not seen any other case like that (bun being pulled), so surely it doesn't happen that often, and yet people want to convince it was accidental pull by Martinez? He knew exactly what he was doing and will serve 3 games ban.
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https://www.thefa.com/football-rule.../football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct

I’m reading this one. The one you’re quoting is an additional guidance to the referees, but I still don’t see that there can’t be any leeway in terms of the force used.

As I’ve mentioned before, the only anatomical parts of the body specifically mentioned in the laws of the game is striking an opponent in the head or face, and even then there’s the caveat that it’s not a red card if the force is negligible.

If hair pulling was an automatic red and no circumstance (like accidentally catching the hair in a jostling situation, or pulling with little force), we wouldn’t have had Howard Webb defending the decision to give a yellow card for the Bournemouth player when Cucurella was forcefully dragged back by his hair when running full speed forward. If this is a red card for Martinez then it has to be preceded by Webb saying it was a mistake to hand out a yellow to the Bournemouth player, which he didn’t. He defended the decision and said the ref has the right to give a yellow for whatever reason, for a hair pull that was orders of magnitudes more forceful than what we saw here.

And the obvious response I’m going to get to this is that people are going to say ”well he’s given the ref the chance to make a decision by getting his hand in contact with DCL’s hair”, but if the ref used every opportunity to send someone off that they could we’d be seeing red cards for verbal abuse for players saying ”feck off” after getting a decision against them and nobody would accept that (I fecking hope, at least).

It’s an extremely soft red card that can be supported by some of the rules (but not all the prerequisites because it’s not off the ball, it’s not even a clear pulling motion and it’s not forceful), it’s not a missed incident because the ref’s looking at it, so it should be subject to the same clear and obvious threshold that has been used to deny numerous penalties for clear fouls against us (Amad, Yoro to name a few recent incidents).

The ref doesn’t automatically need to give a red card as soon as there’s hand-to-hair contact as evidenced by the refereeing chief’s comments but he has chosen to do so by hiding behind a law that’s far from clear while saying ”well look mate the hand is touching the hair and that’s an automatic red” which I have already proven is false going by Webb’s comments.
 
If the rule is so black and white for hair pulling and this counts as violent conduct then surely the rule has to apply to elbows in the face too? How can elbows in the face come down to the refs opinion but hair pulling be a straight red?
 
terraloo said:
*The decision of the referee was based on IFAB Law 12 which provides for actions around violent conduct. Under violent conduct, the official guidance specifically states that a player must be sent off if they make a clear action to pull the hair of an opponent or any other person with force.*
*The broader definition adds that violent conduct is any use or attempt to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, regardless of whether contact is made.*
*That is not referee opinion. That is the written law.*
*The word that carries everything here is force. A forceful pull is a mandatory red card. A softer tug sits in the referee's discretion, unsporting behaviour, yellow card territory.*
*The referee yesterday judged that force was present and applied the law accordingly.*
*You can disagree with his assessment of force. You cannot disagree that the law exists.*
*(Source : Ajoje [isreal_ajoje on X ]A FIFA Licensed Agent and International Sports Lawyer)*
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That’s what everyone is doing. Because the law allows for the possibility of pulling hair in a way that is not forceful enough to merit a red card. And I genuinely cannot imagine what pulling hair less forcefully than what Martinez did actually looks like? Because it’s extremely easy to picture what yanking someone’s hair with force looks like. And it’s not that.
 
adam118 said:
If the rule is so black and white for hair pulling and this counts as violent conduct then surely the rule has to apply to elbows in the face too? How can elbows in the face come down to the refs opinion but hair pulling be a straight red?
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The ultimate irony in football, players get away with elbows, jumping under players when they are in the air while not going for the ball, two handed pushing in the back, shoulders in the back, late tackles etc (all of which DCL got away with). Then you have all the diving, cheating, time wasting, wrestling on corners etc.. it's all acceptable apparently.

But touching a man bun when jumping for a header after getting an arm to the face, well that's just not on. Disgusting behaviour. It's clear some people just don't like Martinez and that's what is driving their viewpoint on this.
 
adam118 said:
If the rule is so black and white for hair pulling and this counts as violent conduct then surely the rule has to apply to elbows in the face too? How can elbows in the face come down to the refs opinion but hair pulling be a straight red?
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Because they’ll use whatever interpretation of the law they can to shrug their shoulders and say “sorry, I literally have no choice” and then go back into hiding.

We’ve seen so many instances of it against us that it’s unreal.

High bar for intervention means no foul on Amad against Bournemouth.
High bar for intervention means leaping into a defender’s head with your arm isn’t a foul.
High bar for intervention means Leeds player going through the back of Bruno for their second goal isn’t a foul.
High bar for intervention doesn’t matter when Højlund grabs Haaland in the box.
High bar for intervention doesn’t matter when de Ligt and Ings collide in a literal 50/50.

Grabbing a player by the throat is an automatic red, no ifs or buts, so Casemiro has to be sent off and he’s given the ref a chance to send him off, silly stupid Casemiro. In the same situation Ayew slaps Fred in the face and a red suddenly isn’t automatic.
Grabbing a player by the throat is not an automatic red after a little while because when a Forest player grabbed Bruno by his throat VAR had a look and said no red.
Grabbing a player by the throat is not an automatic red when Semenyo grabbed Dalot by the throat because we were told that the ref has to consider whether it’s a sustained hold and it wasn’t so no red for the United opposition.

Grabbing someone’s hair is an automatic red no matter the circumstances so the referee has no choice but to send him off, stupid silly Martinez!
Grabbing someone’s hair is an automatic red but when Bournemouth get a yellow card for a forceful hair grab it’s not a red because you have to consider the intent and force accordingly to Howard Webb.

Showing obvious dissent is always a yellow card so when Shea Lacey throws the ball into the ground, of course he needs sending off because the referee literally has no choice but to follow the laws of the game.
Showing obvious dissent is always a yellow card so when Joelinton gets booked and shows his appreciation by lifting both of his hands above his head and applauding the referee 8 times it’s not an automatic yellow because the ref can choose not to give a card.
Obvious dissent is always a yellow, but when Darwin Nuñez gets booked for a shoulder barge, then smashes the ball across the pitch and sarcastically applauds the assistant ref it’s not an automatic yellow because the ref can choose to not give one.
And then of course in the same game as the incident above Oliver has no choice but to send Dalot off for two yellows in five seconds because he’s shown obvious dissent twice when he angrily reacted by flailing his arm twice after a decision against him. Silly Dalot.

I could go on even further but I’m done on the shitter and the point should be clear by now.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That’s what everyone is doing. Because the law allows for the possibility of pulling hair in a way that is not forceful enough to merit a red card. And I genuinely cannot imagine what pulling hair less forcefully than what Martinez did actually looks like? Because it’s extremely easy to picture what yanking someone’s hair with force looks like. And it’s not that.
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There’s a perfect example of what yanking someone’s hair looks like in video format, and the additional bonus is you can hear the referees’ boss talking over the clip defending why it’s a yellow card.

https://www.football.london/chelsea-fc/news/pgmol-chief-gives-chelsea-final-31032765.amp

Can’t find a clip right now but here are the quotes.
 
kundalini said:
Correct decision. The rules are clear: If you pull an opponent's hair, expect to get sent off.

It is vital that United's manager and players understand the rules of the game. On this issue, it would appear that they don't.
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Not sure I agree with your comment that "the rules are clear". However, I do agree that it was a red card. Purely down to the fact that, loosely, if you pull someone's hair, it's a sending off.

FerociousCorgis said:
Except for when semenyo got his hair pulled and nothing came of it
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To my mind that's more an issue of the ruling in the Semenyo incident being inaccurate/incorrect, rather than the ruling against Licha.

Annihilate Now! said:
If we're following the rules to the Nth degree then DCL should also have been sent off as he grabs the back of Martinez head (and no points for guessing what's on the back of Licha's head...)

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Don't disagree with this. It's more to do with the lack of consistency from the refs. But it doesn't change that Martinez's was a red card (in my opinion).

Now... do I agree with the rule? No, it's ridiculously soft, as are many of the rules around fouls and "violent conduct". It's so far removed from the game I grew up on in the late 80s/early 90s. I agree with the comments of most on here: the game has well and truly gone if this is a red card offence. But the reality is... the rules are stupid, and this is deemed to be a red card according to the rules.

I think the biggest mistake here is giving the referees a decision to make in the first place. Just don't pull someone's hair, because if the decision goes against you as it does here then there's uproar.
 
It’s truly is astonishing that the most popular sport in the world has such a dreadful level of officiating especially when it is made so easy for them with all the new and available technology, absolutely baffling.
 
I don't have any issue with the decision itself. He did grab a fistful of hair, not accidentially flailing around and landing in the hairbun but actually grabbing it. That's on him and just an embarrassing action, and the EPL is clear on hair-pulling being violent conduct. The red card is thus fair, if a bit on the harsher side considering the offense was only brief and without major force behind it.

I do understand and largely agree that the inconsistency of the application of the rules is a major issue, both for on-field refs and VAR. Some personal takes are of course fine and will always be there - some games are just more lenient than others. Some personal discretion by the refs is completely OK with me. But there are plenty of cases where it seems that the rulebook gets outright ignored, and that is definitely going too far.
 
Anustart89 said:
There’s a perfect example of what yanking someone’s hair looks like in video format, and the additional bonus is you can hear the referees’ boss talking over the clip defending why it’s a yellow card.

https://www.football.london/chelsea-fc/news/pgmol-chief-gives-chelsea-final-31032765.amp

Can’t find a clip right now but here are the quotes.
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Here’s Dermot Gallagher talking absolute bollox about the same incident. Which includes a clip. Probably the only time in PL history a ref was called to review a potential red card offence and decided not to send a player off?

https://www.skysports.com/football/...received-yellow-card-for-marc-cucurella-clash

They seem to have all decided that he didn’t pull his hair and pulled his shirt instead.
 
NotoriousISSY said:
You are correct, providing we ignore the inconsistency of the application of the violent conduct rules.

If Dan Burn can pop his elbow joint into Luke Shaw’s cranium without intervention, then Lisandro can’t get done for anything other than sexual assault due to the foreplay he engaged with DCL.
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Like I say VAR is a nightmare so you just don’t do it, he knew exactly what he was doing and opened up the door at a time when we really needed 11 men
 
As much as I hate the result of that match, if it happened against us, we'd be saying it was a correct decision.

It was idiotic from Martinez to do that. Don't tell me that his hand got caught in his hair by mistake.
 
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