Pretty much every Leeds fan I've talked to since (and I know a lot) have said technically it can be red card but it should never actually be a red card.
I imagine most on here would have the same stance.
The Martinez red card
- Thread starter FriedClams
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Pretty much every Leeds fan I've talked to since (and I know a lot) have said technically it can be red card but it should never actually be a red card.
I imagine most on here would have the same stance.
Pulling someone's hair, however soft, is just lame as feck. Deserved red imo. He was a knob in his Ajax days too.
Well obviously, all Ajax players are knobs.
Well obviously, all Ajax players are knobs.
There can be leeway, but the rules are clearly constructed in a way that to dismiss any "hair brushing" cases. This was clearly not one of them, since Martinez got a full grab of hair and pulled him. Slightly? Maybe, maybe DCL made a big deal out of it but it's really easy decision to make for the ref.
If somebody pulls your ear while you're jumping for a header, would you not run to the ref to complain? There is no mention of ear in the policy either.
I have not seen Cucurella case but judging by the description and reading the rules, Bournemouth player should see red as well, not sure what does it have to do with that case. In the end you give the ref a decision to make.
There must be plenty cases of players getting a red for grabbing and pulling opponents hair then, especially since Martinez case many people still call "accidental"?
It is very very difficult to judge how much force was applied. If you set the standards to "only significant force means a red", then Cucurella and DCL will get their hair pulled all the time, and again I don't see it hapenning that often, accidentally or not - because it's clear offense by the books. In this particular case it's just too easy for the ref to classify this as violend conduct, that's why I believe Martinez was stupid to pull this off as I don't believe for one second this was an accident. He should have known better as the last and only senior CB available at the moment.
For the record, we have been screwed over many times recently with pens not given, or Yoro being fouled last game. But that goes into another thread about refereeing. This one is more about the rules and application to this particular case.
Yes, but I was complaining that the 'match up' was right after him coming back from a long lay off.
Martinez has handled bigger opponents, as another poster pointed out about his performance against Haaland. However in that case he had help around him that kept the ball away from Haaland, he only really had to tackle Haaland on the ground, where he was quicker and nippier.
Really because of enforced changes Martinez was expected to actually 'man mark' DCL on Monday and that would always be a problem because of size etc.
I would have preferred Heaven against DCL, with Martinez instead of Ugarte.
Yes true, but there were differences, Martinez was just back from injury on Monday and was virtually left to tackle DCL alone. He did pull one or two stunts on DCL which were not strictly allowed, the tugging on the hair was in my opinion the last expression of frustration, unfortunately it got spotted by VAR.
He literally feels for his hair and grabs it
I actually didn't see the game as I was working late at work and wonder if this deserves it's own thread but -
Bruno Fernandes said something else interesting after the game "it's not just the red cards it's the yellows too" and I've always thought the same. Yellows change games. If Fernandinho get yellow cards every time he pulled his bullshit "oh it was an accidental foul" to stop us breaking and scoring goals on city then even City would have struggled at their peak.
So are we getting reffed differently? The stats have us with the third lowest yellow cards and 3 reds all season. And Chelsea have the 7 red cards of course.
Or is it just a bit of bias? 2 shit refereeing performances in a row don't necessarily mean we have been targeted in particular. Because we have not been particularly good in either of those games or all season.
Bruno Fernandes said something else interesting after the game "it's not just the red cards it's the yellows too" and I've always thought the same. Yellows change games. If Fernandinho get yellow cards every time he pulled his bullshit "oh it was an accidental foul" to stop us breaking and scoring goals on city then even City would have struggled at their peak.
So are we getting reffed differently? The stats have us with the third lowest yellow cards and 3 reds all season. And Chelsea have the 7 red cards of course.
Or is it just a bit of bias? 2 shit refereeing performances in a row don't necessarily mean we have been targeted in particular. Because we have not been particularly good in either of those games or all season.
This is why I have a big problem with VAR. The fact that it can intervene in some situations but not others is unfair as they've created an arbitrary line of what influences a game more.
Yes, ref's have always been 'judged' in particular on individual decisions; by the crowds, by managers, by sports writers, TV commentators/pundits etc. which for the most part is a passing phase, but recently become a source for 'click-bait'.
Now the Refs have VAR, which allows for the ability of a fellow professional to make use of technology to make a judgement in their own time, about the ref's actual judgement made in the spur of the moment.
So you bet your sweet life we are getting reffed differently.
So it is only human nature and since every ref is an individual, you will still get 'different interpretations' not only on the outcome (final decision), but also one what was seen by VAR.
The only absolute decision settled by technology, is whether a ball has crossed over the goal line completely.
Yet we lead the league in disallowed goals. Also according to google we have the most incorrect VAR decisions as well...but that's just what reporting on the internet says so maybe subjective. Yet not a single ref has been penalized for any of it.
Do you think he's levitating slowly downwards like in the slow motion video? It's a split second thing.
Are we really thinking that as he was up in the duel and coming down he was actively thinking "Well feck this cnut, I'm going to pull his hair", reaching out and grabbing it in order to give it a good tug in the split second of coming down from contesting the ball?
DCL blatantly fouled Yoro before Leeds' opener, and he fouled Martinez before the red card. Martinez grabbed for him while looking at the ball and while being hit in the face by DCL's arm, happened to grab his hair for a short bit. No way to tell whether he was intentionally aiming for the hair, not to mention DCL going on to intentionally elbow our players left and right all game.
It's a shit red card and while we were also shit, we also were completely fecked over by the refs. It's long become a habit of theirs.
We need to start making more of a stink, not just Carrick but more Utd affiliated people in public. Sadly our own pundits are our own worst enemies. But Wilcox, Berrada, should speak out and complain too, can't be all on the manager. Anyone apart from Ratcliffe from whom I'd be happy never to hear a word ever again
It's a shit red card and while we were also shit, we also were completely fecked over by the refs. It's long become a habit of theirs.
We need to start making more of a stink, not just Carrick but more Utd affiliated people in public. Sadly our own pundits are our own worst enemies. But Wilcox, Berrada, should speak out and complain too, can't be all on the manager. Anyone apart from Ratcliffe from whom I'd be happy never to hear a word ever again
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Makes no sense for him to do that. He's clearly instinctively reaching to grab the shirt like every defender does.
The post is insane.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that this hair pull thing has obviously been provided to punish petty and malicious behavior on the pitch. This isn't even about "violence" but rather respect and dignity. Same reason they punish biting and spitting. Given that spirit, I don't know what we're doing here.
I'm really baffled by the people defending such interpretation or application of the law. I can't believe someone having once in a life kicked ball would seriously think that it should be a red. Or maybe you don't like the sport and we should just wrap things up.
But still, the debate here is enlightening. If there's no unanimity within our own fanbase, I don't even want to think about the standards by which we are officiated. So I guess, absolutely no chance our appeal gets granted.
I'm really baffled by the people defending such interpretation or application of the law. I can't believe someone having once in a life kicked ball would seriously think that it should be a red. Or maybe you don't like the sport and we should just wrap things up.
But still, the debate here is enlightening. If there's no unanimity within our own fanbase, I don't even want to think about the standards by which we are officiated. So I guess, absolutely no chance our appeal gets granted.
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Yep people are trying all sorts of mental gymnastics here.
He didn't "accidentallly" touch the hair when grappling, he felt for it, got a handful and still tugged it.
(If that doesn't end up on the sounds sexual thread nothing will)
Oh, none whatsoever. Theres not a chance, I'm not really sure why we bothered unless it's just to register our contempt.. but given whats just happened with Harry I can easily imagine them adding a further game to Martinez for a frivolous appeal.
The sad part is its got nothing to do with the merits of the claim either - it's very clear now that the officlals are handling a very different game than the supporters are expecting and are used to, the players play or the clubs imagine they compete in. If you don't comply with the officials then you're fecked whenever and however they choose, based on whatever latest fanciful interpretation of the rules they've decided on for the game in question. It's not about whats right, it's about them being in charge and being 'respected'. Pathetic people.
yeh I think Martinez has nasty part of his game and he actively reaches out for it
Your right, it doesnt, yet he does.
haha
Maybe we should just lock the thread as it wont go anywhere with the arguments from two sides.
One thing is sure though, the Ref and VAR are very shite for the suppose best league in the world.
One thing is sure though, the Ref and VAR are very shite for the suppose best league in the world.
yeap
Yes, that is true, also during any game there are tackles which are, or can be looked at from either perspective, e.g. a 'fifty-fifty' call from the ref.
In the course of a normal game (so I am told by a friend who is heavily into such stats) there are probably about 30-35% of all decisions made around tackles that could go either way. This same 'stats friend' told me that in no game this season did United ever get the decision in more than 5% of these so called '50-50' tackles.
I suppose you can prove anything with statistics
Classic case of seeing things in slow mo.
He doesn't though. Feel for his hair. Not sure how you know that.
Watch it in whatever speed you want
Doesn’t change that it happened
Watched it
He clearly didn't go for the hair
Yet found it and grabbed
How come it doesn’t happen every match, let’s not pretend he doesn’t have it in him
He tried something cute and got caught
He didn’t yank it, so I agree it’s harsh, and I agree VAR should have got involved with the foul on him and yoro. But two wrongs don’t make a right and he let us down. Simple
Softest red card I can remember seeing in a very long time, last one must have been two yellows for kicking a ball away or something.
If you’re giving reds for hair pull, and it wasn’t a pull, it was cupping (!) at worst, then you can’t class it as violent conduct, at least class it as unsportsmanlike conduct or something. DCL alone performed at least 5 violent challenges and didn’t get a yellow for any.
If given the other way, I’d take it obviously but I’d still call it for what it is, a ridiculous decision/ rule.
If players want to have long hair, make them wear a hair net.
Fecking grown man wearing a man bun, fans accepting a hair brushing as violent conduct, games officially gone.
If you’re giving reds for hair pull, and it wasn’t a pull, it was cupping (!) at worst, then you can’t class it as violent conduct, at least class it as unsportsmanlike conduct or something. DCL alone performed at least 5 violent challenges and didn’t get a yellow for any.
If given the other way, I’d take it obviously but I’d still call it for what it is, a ridiculous decision/ rule.
If players want to have long hair, make them wear a hair net.
Fecking grown man wearing a man bun, fans accepting a hair brushing as violent conduct, games officially gone.
Tbf if the VAR hadn't drawn attention to it then no one would have been any the wiser, it just looked a minor collison that happens on every long ball.
Any of the previous hair pulls I can remember have been real pulls, where the head is yanked right back, Martinez clearly didn't do this.
As I said at the time players should be encouraged to grow their hair if this is how the rules are going to be applied.
If i speak, I'm in big trouble
I'll state my view one last time. The red card was warranted as there's no denying the bun was slighted handled, almost caressed but not yanked, but the three game ban on account of "violent conduct" is extraordinarily excessive.
Plenty players have long hair
How about tell players not to pull hair ? Probably easier, not hard not gentle just not at all
It’s also cringeworthy
Not a Leeds fan, but I reckon that’s how the vast majority would view it. Intriguing that this has got to 9 pages when the ref literally announced what the player was being sent off for. It’s an incredibly open and shut case.
Obviously there can be a discussion about whether the rules (or laws) make sense or not. But it’s weird seeing people tie themselves in knots. If you added up the lifespans of everyone that has posted in this thread, it’s likely well over 1000 years. In all that time how many instances of accidentally pulling a man’s hair do you think there has been?
The reason it’s not open and shut is because the guidance clearly states that any hair pull has to be “with force”. If that wording wasn’t there, then I agree that we’d be arguing whether the rules made sense. As it is, the decision is clearly contrary to the guidance, as I can’t think of a hair-pull which could have less force. It’s an erroneous decision.
I didn't see any hair get pulled. Martinez touched his pony tail and Dominic Cruciate Ligament made a meal of it.
Let's be honest. Anyone wearing a pony tail for a football match deserves to get it pulled full stop.
By his own words told the ref. Wasnt aware that was a pre requisite for car to get involved