The mask debate

Will you wear a mask/face covering?

  • No issue wearing one; it’s the right thing to do

    Votes: 423 63.2%
  • Yes but only if it’s mandatory

    Votes: 96 14.3%
  • Only in stores and public transport

    Votes: 126 18.8%
  • No (for health reasons)

    Votes: 4 0.6%
  • No (believe it doesn’t help)

    Votes: 8 1.2%
  • No (don’t like being told what to do. My choice)

    Votes: 12 1.8%

  • Total voters
    669

Wibble

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Get vaccinated or kill Penna you selfish bastards
God I love the internet.

The point isn’t the depth, or what’s in the tank. That much should have been obvious. I didn’t even commit a brain cell to write out the scenario.

My point was : I panicked that I couldn’t breathe despite having a pipe in my mouth that guaranteed it. People do the same with a thinpiece of cloth. Unfamiliarity breeds irrationalit
Good because what you described was borderline suicidal. I used to work in the industry and that scenario sounded scary.



But depth is very much part of the point. Diving is already very different to wearing a simple face mask to minimise infection. A diving mask covers the eyes and nose only and you have a regulator in your mouth. The feelings are very different indeed. Even just being underwater is quite claustrophobic for some people and the deeper you go the worse that gets. And what is in the tank does make a huge difference as oxygen toxicity affects you mentally and causes fitting and death. Nitrogen become a narcotic with some people being affected at as little as 15-20m and this contributes to the feeling of panic some get.

I'm not saying some people don't like wearing a simple facemask but just that it isn't the same thing at all.


But thanks Wibble. I’ll be sure to build in decompression stops if I’m ever breathing in ‘Air’ at a depth of 50m.

[fwiw if I’d stopped to write out a factually accurate scenario it was 14-24m with a tank of air on my back at Goat Island in New Zealand. I didn’t write 50m to sound like billy big b0llocks. I just couldn’t be arsed to check what depth is normal for the novice dives that I did, 50m sounded in the right ballpark. I’m PADI certified, not a Navy Seal. Or a Mammalian Seal. Or 90’s chart sensation Seal]
Disclaimer : You’re a good egg, this is humourous, not antagonistic.
Or a seal with an eel up your nose?
 

rcoobc

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What are you on about? Of course, there are multiple cases of people being reinfected. There was the case in the US when he got 2 negative tests and got released, to only get infected 3 months later and suffer worse. At the beginning, we thought that might be just mistaken on tests from South Korea, but it is clear that is not the case now that we know more about the virus.

And there is no biomedical knowledge that says that you cannot get reinfected from the same virus. In fact, more often than not you can. Like from flu. Or from the common cold (some of which are caused from coronaviruses, so close to this disease). Or from yellow fever. In fact, even from measles (which generates an extreme immune response) while highly unlikely, you can still get reinfected. From coronaviruses, the question is not if you can get reinfected, but when you can get reinfected. The hope was that it cannot be for 1-3 years (MERS and SARS), but it seems that it can be much shorter than that. Because people can get reinfected with the same disease, they get revaccinated for some (flu for example) or get vaccine boosters later.

Which makes herd immunity the most ridiculous idea since Trump wanted to nuke a hurricane.



That study showed that primates getting the vaccine were generating 3 times as many antibodies than those who got the disease. Additionally, modern vaccines do not mimic the virus, they instead give information on how to fight the virus (though these types of vaccines have not been successful yet, but that is what Moderna and co. are trying). People are not gonna get weakened/dead versions of the virus int heir bodies.
Radio 4 had a great thought experiment where vaccination proves very difficult due to the constant mutations of this virus and the small immune period after.

So vaccinations are very difficult but testing for it gets better and better to the point where we have "at home" tests where we can get the result back in 5 minutes and cost less than £2 a day each.

We might just learn to live with it. Wake up, West breakfast, brush teeth, take a test. If clear go to work. If positive self isolate for two weeks (and your recent contacts also).

Otherwise we all just live normal lives. Constant testing being the key to getting everything back open. Concerts can test as you go through the door.
 

Revan

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Radio 4 had a great thought experiment where vaccination proves very difficult due to the constant mutations of this virus and the small immune period after.

So vaccinations are very difficult but testing for it gets better and better to the point where we have "at home" tests where we can get the result back in 5 minutes and cost less than £2 a day each.

We might just learn to live with it. Wake up, West breakfast, brush teeth, take a test. If clear go to work. If positive self isolate for two weeks (and your recent contacts also).

Otherwise we all just live normal lives. Constant testing being the key to getting everything back open. Concerts can test as you go through the door.
I don't think that learning to live with it will be the solution. It is actually the worst possible solution.

There is no way that no vaccine will work, there is no way that there won't be effective anti-virals. The only question is when we will have these things and how effective they will be. Even a vaccine that offers only 50% protection for 6 months will improve the situation drastically (we probably need only 60-70% with its R number). I am pretty hopeful that the mass vaccinations will start this year, and with most of the Western (and likely East) world being vaccinated within the next summer, and hopefully the entire world by the end of the next year. The news on the vaccines have been very good so far, so every reason to be optimistic.

Viruses constantly mutate. All of them. Yet we have vaccines for many of them. In fact, coronaviruses do not mutate as fast as for example most flu viruses (we have vaccines for 3-4 of the most common ones) or AIDS virus (no vaccine but its mutations are just in another level, among other things). Saying that the virus mutates is as informative as saying that the sky is blu.
 

rcoobc

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I don't think that learning to live with it will be the solution. It is actually the worst possible solution.

There is no way that no vaccine will work, there is no way that there won't be effective anti-virals. The only question is when we will have these things and how effective they will be. Even a vaccine that offers only 50% protection for 6 months will improve the situation drastically (we probably need only 60-70% with its R number). I am pretty hopeful that the mass vaccinations will start this year, and with most of the Western (and likely East) world being vaccinated within the next summer, and hopefully the entire world by the end of the next year. The news on the vaccines have been very good so far, so every reason to be optimistic.

Viruses constantly mutate. All of them. Yet we have vaccines for many of them. In fact, coronaviruses do not mutate as fast as for example most flu viruses (we have vaccines for 3-4 of the most common ones) or AIDS virus (no vaccine but its mutations are just in another level, among other things). Saying that the virus mutates is as informative as saying that the sky is blu.
To be clear; I'm not suggesting that vaccinations won't be solution. I've signed up to trial the NHS vaccinations, whatever they want to throw at me, when those come available.

To be also clear; I didn't "throw that the virus mutates as new information". Just as part of the thought experiment as to why vaccinations might prove very difficult. This is a global pandemic with potentially billions of hosts and billions of chances for it to mutate into something out vaccines aren't protecting.

But it was an interesting thought experiment. There is a second solution to this mess, if we need it.

Testing has come a long way very quickly.
 

Wibble

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What are you on about? Of course, there are multiple cases of people being reinfected. There was the case in the US when he got 2 negative tests and got released, to only get infected 3 months later and suffer worse. At the beginning, we thought that might be just mistaken on tests from South Korea, but it is clear that is not the case now that we know more about the virus.
There are so few reports of reinfection and even the few that we do have aren't confirmed reinfection and may be due to either a false positive the first time around or a long term infection that has flared up again. And of course some people might have poor or compromised immune systems. I think that if there really was large scale reinfection that we would know about it by now. Fingers crossed.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...m/daily-briefing/2020/07/24/covid-reinfection
/can-you-catch-coronavirus-twice/12481448
 

Striker10

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A few things. One is that vaccines should never be 'forced'. When they go : 'oh we may have to rush one...so it wouldn't be safe as normal etc etc...that's playing God. And then you can ask - could that hurt people more when you weigh everything up.' If people want a dictatorship I guess it's ok- to be dictated too. They create an excuse and then try to sell it as acceptable. There are plenty of reasons not to wear a mask and I don't care for the social shaming element. It's pretty manipulative. I'm pretty sure we can do something with the money system, to negate risk because ultimately it's the money system that puts unnatural pressure on people to 'get back to normal'... but things aren't always on the level and people forget how little they know.

If you are a normal person? You focus on yourself. It's abnormal people who try to force others, who are the issue. Because what we have are people willing to have a conversation and people who pretend they're willing to have a conversation. And they're dangerous. Because their whole mantra, is to change YOUR mind. They don't have a mind to change and they're reckless as well as stupid.
 

rcoobc

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If you are a normal person? You focus on yourself. It's abnormal people who try to force others, who are the issue. Because what we have are people willing to have a conversation and people who pretend they're willing to have a conversation. And they're dangerous. Because their whole mantra, is to change YOUR mind. They don't have a mind to change and they're reckless as well as stupid.
If you only think of yourself, if we all do, then someone WITH covid -19 has no reason to isolate. Sure it may hurt others, but it's not going to help you is it.

Individualism cannot be how we best this disease. The many need to outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, in this case
 

Revan

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A few things. One is that vaccines should never be 'forced'. When they go : 'oh we may have to rush one...so it wouldn't be safe as normal etc etc...that's playing God. And then you can ask - could that hurt people more when you weigh everything up.' If people want a dictatorship I guess it's ok- to be dictated too. They create an excuse and then try to sell it as acceptable. There are plenty of reasons not to wear a mask and I don't care for the social shaming element. It's pretty manipulative. I'm pretty sure we can do something with the money system, to negate risk because ultimately it's the money system that puts unnatural pressure on people to 'get back to normal'... but things aren't always on the level and people forget how little they know.

If you are a normal person? You focus on yourself. It's abnormal people who try to force others, who are the issue. Because what we have are people willing to have a conversation and people who pretend their willing to have a conversation. And they're dangerous. Because their whole mantra, is to change YOUR mind. They don't have a mind to change and they're reckless as well as stupid.
People who drive fast without seatbelt and who might decide to drive on the sidewalks should not be forced to do so. I mean, why should we force them to do so, or try to change their mind when they are willing to have a discussion and there are many reasons to drive fast in the sidewalks?

On other news, we might have another flat Earther in the Caf. But I guess you don’t care about public shaming and there are many reasons to be a flat Earther.
 

Revan

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There are so few reports of reinfection and even the few that we do have aren't confirmed reinfection and may be due to either a false positive the first time around or a long term infection that has flared up again. And of course some people might have poor or compromised immune systems. I think that if there really was large scale reinfection that we would know about it by now. Fingers crossed.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/...m/daily-briefing/2020/07/24/covid-reinfection
/can-you-catch-coronavirus-twice/12481448
There are so few, but also there has been such a short amount of time. So it is expected to be only a few cases.

While some might have been just testing mistakes some seem conclusive. The US guy had two negative tests before being declared positive and having no syndrome. 3 months later he gets tested positive and has worse symptoms than the first time around. That looks a lot like reinfection.

This is also on line with the other coronaviruses we know. We don’t get life immunity (or anywhere near it) for any of the four coronaviruses that cause a fraction of common colds. I guess the only questions are how long the immunity will be with a vaccine (hopefully more than from the disease, at least in the level of antibodies that seems to be the case). If it is 3 months it is really bad, 6 months it is bad, one year and it is ok. Just give the flu shot with this vaccine too and suddenly longevity increases.
 

Wibble

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Get vaccinated or kill Penna you selfish bastards
There are so few, but also there has been such a short amount of time. So it is expected to be only a few cases.

While some might have been just testing mistakes some seem conclusive. The US guy had two negative tests before being declared positive and having no syndrome. 3 months later he gets tested positive and has worse symptoms than the first time around. That looks a lot like reinfection.

This is also on line with the other coronaviruses we know. We don’t get life immunity (or anywhere near it) for any of the four coronaviruses that cause a fraction of common colds. I guess the only questions are how long the immunity will be with a vaccine (hopefully more than from the disease, at least in the level of antibodies that seems to be the case). If it is 3 months it is really bad, 6 months it is bad, one year and it is ok. Just give the flu shot with this vaccine too and suddenly longevity increases.
Since the virus isn't mutating fast at the moment that gives me hope that a vaccine will work for long enough to be very effective in controlling this. Annual vaccination wouldn't be the end of the world.
 

Jippy

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Only the DM would give such a handful of nutters so much airtime.

Moment megaphone wielding anti-mask activists storm Morrison's and demand shoppers 'resist the new world order' and take off their face-coverings that are 'so bad' for them

'You know this agenda is the new world order agenda. They are conditioning you for the new world order guys. You guys need to resist.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...orrisons-shouting-resist-new-world-order.html
 

Wibble

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Get vaccinated or kill Penna you selfish bastards
A few things. One is that vaccines should never be 'forced'. When they go : 'oh we may have to rush one...so it wouldn't be safe as normal etc etc...that's playing God. And then you can ask - could that hurt people more when you weigh everything up.' If people want a dictatorship I guess it's ok- to be dictated too. They create an excuse and then try to sell it as acceptable. There are plenty of reasons not to wear a mask and I don't care for the social shaming element. It's pretty manipulative. I'm pretty sure we can do something with the money system, to negate risk because ultimately it's the money system that puts unnatural pressure on people to 'get back to normal'... but things aren't always on the level and people forget how little they know.

If you are a normal person? You focus on yourself. It's abnormal people who try to force others, who are the issue. Because what we have are people willing to have a conversation and people who pretend they're willing to have a conversation. And they're dangerous. Because their whole mantra, is to change YOUR mind. They don't have a mind to change and they're reckless as well as stupid.
Any vaccine developed very much should be compulsory. I have no idea why you seem to think that a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine will be any less safe than any other vaccine? And it is no more "playing god" than any other medical intervention.

As for the silly "dictatorship" accusation that is what we elect governments to do - protect us from ourselves with laws and regulations. Doubly so when an indi"vidual's actions endanger others, as is the case with a vaccine. And in any case being "forced" I doubt you will be held down and injected but hopefully those who refuse won't be able to enrol their kids in school for the protection of others and similar "penalties".

The rest of your post is rather incoherent (even by the low standard you set in the first part of your post). You sound like a conspiracy theory enthusiast with statements like "but things aren't always on the level and people forget how little they know" and your last paragraph is downright weird and paranoid.
 

fishfingers15

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A few things. One is that vaccines should never be 'forced'. When they go : 'oh we may have to rush one...so it wouldn't be safe as normal etc etc...that's playing God. And then you can ask - could that hurt people more when you weigh everything up.' If people want a dictatorship I guess it's ok- to be dictated too. They create an excuse and then try to sell it as acceptable. There are plenty of reasons not to wear a mask and I don't care for the social shaming element. It's pretty manipulative. I'm pretty sure we can do something with the money system, to negate risk because ultimately it's the money system that puts unnatural pressure on people to 'get back to normal'... but things aren't always on the level and people forget how little they know.

If you are a normal person? You focus on yourself. It's abnormal people who try to force others, who are the issue. Because what we have are people willing to have a conversation and people who pretend they're willing to have a conversation. And they're dangerous. Because their whole mantra, is to change YOUR mind. They don't have a mind to change and they're reckless as well as stupid.
People with valid reasons for not wearing a mask like medical conditions shouldn't wear a mask. Everyone else should. It's the same with vaccines. What else is there to change minds? If you are a normal person, you mustn't be a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
 

Sassy Colin

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What an idiotic thing to say, of course it's not natural to wear a mask, neither will anyone enjoy it, but wearing a mask isn't about a fun thing to do, it's about protecting yourself. The natural way is that 20% of the World's population, or whatever, to be wiped out by COVID-19 and the rest get on with it. We don't do things like that these days though, because, like advances in medical science, humanity etc. What a twat.
 

fishfingers15

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Wibble

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Get vaccinated or kill Penna you selfish bastards
What an idiotic thing to say, of course it's not natural to wear a mask, neither will anyone enjoy it, but wearing a mask isn't about a fun thing to do, it's about protecting yourself. The natural way is that 20% of the World's population, or whatever, to be wiped out by COVID-19 and the rest get on with it. We don't do things like that these days though, because, like advances in medical science, humanity etc. What a twat.
I love how loons like this assume anything beneficial will evolve and therefore anything that hasn't couldn't be beneficial. QEF.

Stupidity is more infectious and dangerous than SARS-CoV-19.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Looking at case numbers increasing in countries where masks have been made compulsory in many places, it doesn’t really seem to be having the desired effect does it?
That tells us feck all. Masks were never going to be some sort of magic shield. They were only ever intended to be a mitigation strategy and we‘ve no idea how much worse those countries would look without compulsory masks.
 

SilentWitness

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Looking at case numbers increasing in countries where masks have been made compulsory in many places, it doesn’t really seem to be having the desired effect does it?
You're speaking as if masks being compulsory means that everyone is wearing them where they are compulsory.
 

utdalltheway

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My son boarded his flight to Oakland yesterday but one family decided not to wear their masks ( I think the issue was the mom didn’t want to mask the 2 yr old). Evidently she didnt want to “strangle” her child.
1-1/2 hours later after the OC sheriffs were involved and that family were removed from the flight (and all passengers had to deplane) the plane took off.

At what point do you stop trying to make a point and just go along with the minor inconvenience to get where you’re going?
For that family it seems that point is way out there.
 

djembatheking

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I went shopping in Morrisons this morning and as usual very few people wearing masks , I would say 5 or 6 in the whole shop and they were elderly . No staff wearing a mask either . It has become very rare to see a mask in Anglesey now I think most have given up.
 

Sassy Colin

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I went shopping in Morrisons this morning and as usual very few people wearing masks , I would say 5 or 6 in the whole shop and they were elderly . No staff wearing a mask either . It has become very rare to see a mask in Anglesey now I think most have given up.
This was raised in another thread, mask wearing is not yet compulsory in Wales.

Bloody stupid idea each 'home' country having their own rules.
 

djembatheking

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This was raised in another thread, mask wearing is not yet compulsory in Wales.

Bloody stupid idea each 'home' country having their own rules.
Life is not far from normal in Anglesey , masks rarely worn, very little social distancing going on, more people than ever about this year and only one case in the last week. Most people I speak to are just getting on with things as normal, car sharing, socialising and doing normal stuff. There was only one case in Anglesey last week which is brilliant and definitely gives you a bit of hope. It could be a disaster if we do have an outbreak though as so many people from all over the UK have been in contact with each other. Cross fingers and hope for the best.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Local Asda has security at the door now "politely" asking people without masks to wear one. It's great as they're clearly bouncers who needed to find other places to work because they're fecking massive. Almost put on a second mask just because they're that imposing.
 

Halftrack

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No I’m not, my whole problem since the start of the debate is that 99% of people will wear and treat them completely wrong or not wear them at all.
Saw a guy wearing one on the bus. Cool, caring about others, I respect that. He then gets up and walks to the middle doors when the bus gets to his stop (a shopping mall), and while waiting for the doors to open with 6-7 others, he takes the mask off by grabbing it at the front and pulling. Then he bunches it up and puts it in his pocket. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if he wore it to protect himself because he knows jack shit about how masks work, or why we're told to wear them.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Saw a guy wearing one on the bus. Cool, caring about others, I respect that. He then gets up and walks to the middle doors when the bus gets to his stop (a shopping mall), and while waiting for the doors to open with 6-7 others, he takes the mask off by grabbing it at the front and pulling. Then he bunches it up and puts it in his pocket. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if he wore it to protect himself because he knows jack shit about how masks work, or why we're told to wear them.
Maybe he knows exactly why we’re told to wear them? Because all the stuff about removing carefully and not reusing masks is only for the benefit of the person wearing them. And the primary reason we’re wearing masks is for the benefit of other people.
 

acnumber9

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Saw a guy wearing one on the bus. Cool, caring about others, I respect that. He then gets up and walks to the middle doors when the bus gets to his stop (a shopping mall), and while waiting for the doors to open with 6-7 others, he takes the mask off by grabbing it at the front and pulling. Then he bunches it up and puts it in his pocket. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if he wore it to protect himself because he knows jack shit about how masks work, or why we're told to wear them.
What is he supposed to do with it?
 

Halftrack

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Maybe he knows exactly why we’re told to wear them? Because all the stuff about removing carefully and not reusing masks is only for the benefit of the person wearing them. And the primary reason we’re wearing masks is for the benefit of other people.
I mean, if you're trying to avoid spreading germs, improperly handling a mask that you've had in front of your primary germspreaders runs counter to that. Now you've contaminated your hands, and unless you plan on immediately sanitizing them, you're going to go around and spread that stuff to everything you touch. At that point, you might as well drop all pretense and just cough into your hands.
What is he supposed to do with it?
You're definitely not supposed to grab it by the front, you're supposed to take it by the elastic bands behind the ears, then drop it in the nearest waste bin. There was one three feet from the door, but instead the guy just went ahead and contaminated his hands and dropped the germ cloth in his pocket.
 

acnumber9

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I mean, if you're trying to avoid spreading germs, improperly handling a mask that you've had in front of your primary germspreaders runs counter to that. Now you've contaminated your hands, and unless you plan on immediately sanitizing them, you're going to go around and spread that stuff to everything you touch. At that point, you might as well drop all pretense and just cough into your hands.

You're definitely not supposed to grab it by the front, you're supposed to take it by the elastic bands behind the ears, then drop it in the nearest waste bin. There was one three feet from the door, but instead the guy just went ahead and contaminated his hands and dropped the germ cloth in his pocket.
Don’t know why but I assumed it was a re-usable one.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I mean, if you're trying to avoid spreading germs, improperly handling a mask that you've had in front of your primary germspreaders runs counter to that. Now you've contaminated your hands, and unless you plan on immediately sanitizing them, you're going to go around and spread that stuff to everything you touch. At that point, you might as well drop all pretense and just cough into your hands.
Yeah, fair point. Although I’m not sure touching the outside of the mask is that big a problem. I really hate it when people use disposable masks. Felt like we were finally getting on top of all the single use disposable crap and now this pandemic has been a massive backward step.