I have that. For virus particles, it's not much better or worse than the cheat non-cloth masks that you'd wear otherwise. (Also depends on the fabric, of course.)
The mask debate
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
That shows the spread of bacteria, which is irrelevant here as Covid is not a form of bacteria.
think respiratory droplets is the key here. Covid-19 (a virus) doesn't just fly out of the mouth, it spreads through respiratory droplets and aerosols. And masks prevents those droplets from disseminating (to a varying range of effectiveness).
I don't mind them, plus the science says it works
I don't like the cheap masks that have elastic around the ears... my ears hurt after a while, but I bought some custom velcro ones and they are fantastic and make me look more intimidating
I don't like the cheap masks that have elastic around the ears... my ears hurt after a while, but I bought some custom velcro ones and they are fantastic and make me look more intimidating
This is a great point.
I fully intend to wear one in shops and public transport. Keep forgetting the fecking thing though. Reckon I’ve a 50% success rate in shops over the last couple of weeks.
The crazy thing is, whenever I do remember my mask I get very judgey of anyone who doesn’t have one. It’s not a big ask, right? Just put a mask on, you selfish bastards!
Even though it’s basically me the last time I went shopping.
The crazy thing is, whenever I do remember my mask I get very judgey of anyone who doesn’t have one. It’s not a big ask, right? Just put a mask on, you selfish bastards!
Even though it’s basically me the last time I went shopping.
Right, it has to do with amount of ejection which is why indoor events featuring talking loudly or singing are often super spreader occasions: parties, churches, bars, clubs, etc...
But regular masks/coverings don’t necessarily prevent you from breathing anything bad in. It is more about reducing how much everyone distributes in total by some %, which means it only works if everybody does it. It’s a numbers game, and it requires everyone to buy in.
Went Westfield the other day, some were wearing it but most weren't and it makes you think what's the point. Made me conscious [even more so than I already was] of how selfish people were; truth being that if not enough people take these precautions it deems the whole thing useless for everyone else.
Anywhere with loads of people in close proximity, particularly enclosed ones, I'll take care to wear one.
Anywhere with loads of people in close proximity, particularly enclosed ones, I'll take care to wear one.
Cloth masks aren't to protect yourself from others, they're to protect others from you, though they do offer a small amount of protection for you as well.
I don’t wear one and I haven’t really considered doing so. If I’m instructed to wear one to use public transport, enter a shop, get a hair cut or go to work then I will wear one, as that’s what the people responsible for that vehicle or premises is asking me to do. As of yet, I haven’t used public transport and haven’t been required to wear one to enter a shop.
I think the suggestion that people who don’t wear one are “selfish” is a divisive viewpoint that is out of line with the majority of public behaviour in the UK, for what it’s worth. I know lots of good people (I’d like to think I am one) who don’t wear masks at all. I don’t believe that makes them bad people, and I don’t think you’re going to be given much time if that’s the attitude you choose to take with them.
I’m happy within myself to continue as I am. I follow the guidelines and try my best to give people space. I won’t apologise for that, to tell the truth.
I think the suggestion that people who don’t wear one are “selfish” is a divisive viewpoint that is out of line with the majority of public behaviour in the UK, for what it’s worth. I know lots of good people (I’d like to think I am one) who don’t wear masks at all. I don’t believe that makes them bad people, and I don’t think you’re going to be given much time if that’s the attitude you choose to take with them.
I’m happy within myself to continue as I am. I follow the guidelines and try my best to give people space. I won’t apologise for that, to tell the truth.
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I'm simply saying it is specific to bacteria which is a different and usually a larger organism.
Can’t the same be said of masks, in general? Or are you saying cloth masks in particular do a poor job of protection for the wearer but better for those around you?
I'm the exact same wayIf everyone thought like that we will be living with this damn virus for a bit longer
Of course. But unless made non-negotiable, the vast majority of people in the UK will not wear masks unless instructed to do so. The vast majority of people in the UK aren’t bad people who actively want others to suffer either. They just don’t feel like wearing a mask. Mask-wearing is a cultural concept that is going to take a long time to embed within most western societies. It won’t happen with any real speed unless made compulsory.
I was wearing one at the beginning of the outbreak, but as it became apparent covid is not prevalent in Australia I stopped. If I lived in the UK or US or anywhere with a big outbreak I would definitely wear one.
Even if the science is debate-able wearing one is so trivial, compared to the potential downsides, I don't see the logic in not doing so.
Even if the science is debate-able wearing one is so trivial, compared to the potential downsides, I don't see the logic in not doing so.
Yes to the first sentence, at least in terms of ‘masks’ the public are generally wearing.
Masks arent fool proof but to think they are useless is stupid.
Everytime I see someone not wearing a mask I assume they are a dickhead.
Everytime I see someone not wearing a mask I assume they are a dickhead.
For the benefit of doubt:
Surgical masks - Used to protect others from you. Used by surgeons during surgery. Limited protection for you from other people due to lack of airtight seal between face and mask.
Homemade masks/ facial coverings/ Scarfs - Used to protect others from you. It may be less effective than surgical masks, depending on many factors (i.e. material, how it is made, how many layers etc). Protection for you from others is limited/ unknown for similar reasons.
Single use respirators or reusable respirators (e.g. N95 masks, FFP3 masks, half face and full face etc): Used to protect others from you. Also used to protect you from others. It provides excellent protection in both cases. Currently this should be the mask used by all NHS staff and carers.
Surgical masks - Used to protect others from you. Used by surgeons during surgery. Limited protection for you from other people due to lack of airtight seal between face and mask.
Homemade masks/ facial coverings/ Scarfs - Used to protect others from you. It may be less effective than surgical masks, depending on many factors (i.e. material, how it is made, how many layers etc). Protection for you from others is limited/ unknown for similar reasons.
Single use respirators or reusable respirators (e.g. N95 masks, FFP3 masks, half face and full face etc): Used to protect others from you. Also used to protect you from others. It provides excellent protection in both cases. Currently this should be the mask used by all NHS staff and carers.
Where are people buying their masks from?
Luckily I don't need to living in Sydney but I would - why wouldn't you?
No need to put selfish in quotes because this mentality IS selfish. It is no different than the mentality of the anti-vaxers. I have a family member who is unable to get vaccinated due to autoimmune disorders. We count on society not being selfish assholes so that she can survive. When an antivaxers kid got measles and showed up at school she had to be kept home for a month to make sure no other kids came down with it and exposed her beyond the initial one.
It's the same thing with masks. we are not wearing them to protect ourselves, we are wearing them to protect the people around us from us. If the "inconvenience" of wearing a mask outweighs the benefit of protecting our neighbors and fellow humans then what the fukc does that say about us?
I don't think it is quite the same thing. I imagine there are very few disadvantages or risks to getting vaccinated largely because we have been vaccinating people for years, decades even. So I imagine scientists who study in this field understand vaccines very well and consequently can be fairly confident of how to use them correctly etc. However there were risks with mask wearing put forward by the WHO earlier, and perhaps some or all remain valid, or perhaps others or all on the other hand may now be deemed less risky through new evidence and data.
The point is, the reason it is different is because if they had earlier mandated masks as a hard requirement and later it turned out that it led to little, or worse a negative effect (because of those risks), people would have been outraged - much as they are outraged now. The WHO has since changed their guidance, but some people still remain concerned and we shouldn't be so dismissive of those concerns either.
Calling people selfish for simply following advice is also absolutely unwarranted. If the advice changes and people do not follow it, then you can have a go, but really, if you feel the advice is incorrect, your frustration should either be towards your local government or the scientists giving that advice to the government. In my view, the current UK advice (the poster states their location is the UK) on the issue is correct, but perhaps could be made stronger and state that masks should be required for going indoors in areas of poor ventilation or inadequate social distancing.
So let me see if I understand this. You are saying that since the WHO messed up with their guidance we should give people a pass because they now refuse to accept the correction? I am sorry, I refuse to accept that doing a bad thing because you don't trust scientific and medical advice is an acceptable behavior. Both the US and UK now recommend wearing masks in public. Those of us in the science (which I am) and medical (many in my family) fields have seen this as the common sense from the beginning. My PhD work was in infectious disease and PPE was an essential part of my day for 6 years. I wore masks, gloves, etc. for most of my day. I am still alive last time I checked. My Sister-In-Law has worked in an ER for a decade and wears a mask almost her entire shift. She is still alive. Any excuse for not wearing a mask except for a medical reason comes down to only an unwillingness to do so. So I repeat, if one is unwilling to wear a mask, which in the worst case does nothing at all (not true, but I'll put it out there), and in the best case (reality) can protect others then where the hell are we as a society?
In the US this is the recomendation:
"CDC recommends that people wear cloth face coverings in public settings when around people outside of their household, especially when other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain. "
This is the UK:
" If you can, you should also wear a face covering in other enclosed public spaces where social distancing isn’t possible and where you will come into contact with people you do not normally meet. "
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The guidance wasn't messed up. It gave reasons for and against their use. It wasn't clear how problematic those risks were. At the time, it didn't matter much anyway since most countries had observed lockdown so wearing masks at that time was indeed pointless because everyone, at least from the perspective of the UK, was indoors and isolated. With the passage of time, and presumably more data, the guidance can change.
That poster and I both live in the UK. At least until last week, wearing masks was only mandatory on public transport in England. Perhaps the guidance has changed, I haven't followed it so closely, but having a glance in the news, I can't see it has. The guidance may be different for Scotland, NI or Wales.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/staying-safe-outside-your-home/staying-safe-outside-your-home#:~:text=Evidence suggests that wearing a,do not replace social distancing.
Based on my knowledge, I can think of reasons where wearing masks is unnecessary, based on the physics of the situation. I therefore posted and gave what I felt was quite a balanced and considerate view, which considered both sides of the argument. Can you share for example, why you feel it is necessary for an individual to wear masks outdoors? What knowledge do you have to suggest this is necessary?
Bare in mind, that poster did say they would respect whatever law or regulation is in place, and at least from my understanding and theirs, the UK law hasn't changed in that regard. Calling them selfish is completely unwarranted, whatever your qualifications because all they are doing, as you actually want them to, is following the current advice.
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https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/hugos-tacos-closed-over-customers-masks-employees-15372545.php
Portend of things to come.
Portend of things to come.
I will grant that I am probably being unfair with my use of the word selfish. Here in the US it is a constant battle as the use of masks and the virus in general has become a political issue as opposed to one of science based decision making. I am passionate about this for a number of reasons:
1. I dedicated a large portion of my life to the study of infectious diseases.
2. I have family members who are in the extreme risk category who have not left their house in months, and will not be able to do so any time soon, because my country can not get this under control.
3. I have had people in my circle of family/friends who have died from COVID.
Point number 1 means I know for a fact that point number 2 and number 3 did, and do not need to continue to happen. Basic human decency and selflessness could have flattened the curve in this country. Competent and science based leadership could have directed us in the right direction. My country is lacking all of those things. We have no competent leadership, we have a large portion of the country who do not believe in science, and we have an utter disregard for decency and the value of human life.
Will wearing a mask prevent all infections? No. But when used in conjunction with social distancing and reasonable decision making it can do a damn good job at reducing the number of infections. Wearing a mask indoors is recommended in both our countries. Not required, but recommended. So I guess my question is this, if you (this is a generic you, not directed at you personally) will do something if it is required, why would you not do it when it is recommended? What is preventing you from following the science and wearing it when indoors?
Wearing a mask outdoors is a different issue as long as you can stay socially distanced. However, if one is at an outside event, or at a park or beach where anyone can quickly get close, I would see this as a definite instance where a mask should be worn outside.
edited: hit post on accident
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I agree and I am worried that it is going to get worse as we get closer to the election. Trump is doing everything possible to ignore the virus and Pence is doing victory laps one the same day we hit record highs for cases AND hospitalizations. One of my old grad school buddies is a lab director at a major southern hospital and the amount of abuse he gets from MAGA's on social media when he tries to combat their idiocy is frightening. Even in 1918 they got the curve down before the fall wave hit. At the rate we are going their will be no second wave as the first will still be cresting!
America seems quite unique in that sense.
You are only seeing half the picture though. The droplets could evaporate or disperse and could deposit on surfaces such as the mask itself. Also, from an outsiders perspective, I was initially, and perhaps overly, worried about behavioural habits, but one thing I remain confused about is the cleaning process. I still have doubts that people are cleaning properly the homemade coverings (if indeed they can be cleaned properly) or doing it frequently enough and this is an example of one of those risks. It shouldn't mean we issue advice not to wear masks, but rather as scientists we acknowledge there may be downsides and explore what effect they have. In my view this is what the WHO did. It was tiring for example, arguing with someone else in the main thread who said "wearing masks was obvious" without even acknowledging any of the physics involved nor the risks, however small they may turn out to be. I am sure you of all people will be fully aware that even what appears to be a simple experiment, will turn out to have a huge number of weird(!) and wonderful(?) problems that you didn't initially consider during the planning.
A point of note. Wearing masks in an industrial setting or laboratory where the operating procedures are clear is simply not the same as wearing masks in public settings. In the former, the risks are clear and appropriate action (alongside training) is taken. This doesn't as easily translate to the real world so more care is needed when giving instruction to the public. You also expose yourself to more risk in a laboratory depending on the experiment which means the need for PPE increases significantly. In the same way, we correctly expect health workers to wear full PPE but for the public to only wear half face masks at most.
Generally because wearing industrial grade masks, as you will know, is not something you want to be doing on a prolonged basis. If it isn't necessary, then we can avoid that problem and also save single use masks for when they would be necessary, e.g. indoors. The science also backs that up. Droplets disperse radially from a point source in a turbulent flow and quite a lot of the time, the wind will be turbulent, and much of the time at the very least either what some authors may say is "nominally turbulent" or even colloquially as a weak breeze. This neglects the evaporation effects as well, where turbulence is known to promote evaporation due to advective heat transfer processes. So really, apart from a few exceptions (which always exist), wearing them outdoors just doesn't seem necessary to me, unless you find yourself in very crowded places, and even then, the science, to me at least, isn't as clear cut because of these mechanisms.
In an indoor situation, the problem is more difficult, but I think I have remained fairly consistent for a while that if social distancing cannot be observed, masks or coverings should be worn in those cases. I can't comment on why the UK governments has not made them compulsory indoors where social distancing and droplet suspension is problematic, but there may be valid reasons which I have missed or do not understand.
Generally I broadly agree with what you are saying and I do sympathise with your situation. My main point is that there is more science than just blocking droplets e.g. its also about how the droplets travel, collide and evaporate as well. We should see both sides to wearing masks and explore both sides. I also feel too much emphasis is placed on facial coverings/masks and more emphasis should be placed on social distancing and washing hands - this should be drummed into people every day. They are much simple instructions to give than facial coverings, require much less effort and are probably the most effective measures for everyone to follow.
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Weird how the tide has changed on masks in the US. We even have people mask shaming for not wearing on.
There were many more defending not wearing one back in March/April, people in the medical profession.
@Carolina Red was very vocal on here that people should not be wearing one (partner works in hospital iirc) but in the US it's become a big political thing and don't see the same people explaining how they can make the virus worse by adjusting the mask constantly, not wearing it properly and taking it off incorrectly etc. Has your position changed Carolina Red?
There were many more defending not wearing one back in March/April, people in the medical profession.
@Carolina Red was very vocal on here that people should not be wearing one (partner works in hospital iirc) but in the US it's become a big political thing and don't see the same people explaining how they can make the virus worse by adjusting the mask constantly, not wearing it properly and taking it off incorrectly etc. Has your position changed Carolina Red?
Amazon, Groupon, pharmacies - you can make a face-covering with ties in a couple of minutes from an old tee-shirt.
Your honesty is so refreshing.
Not used public transport recently, but I always wear a face mask whenever I go into a shop. And I normally do remember to take it.
But me and my family who do the same seem to be in the minority. And a small minority at that.
As you say, it isn't difficult and if it keeps us safer than not wearing one, then it is a no brainer. Why take the risk when it is so simple not to.
What about “things gotta breathe” option?
If you've got anything covering your mouth and nose, it's better than not having anything. It seems kind of obvious, really. We've just got the gas engineer here and I put on a mask when I went out to see him. He's also wearing a mask, and he's not even working inside the house.
Masks. They're a good thing.
Masks. They're a good thing.
The three people who voted that they don't because they don't like being told what to do. You're selfish and a hazard to other people.
That's a useful article, well worth a read.
The "high speed video" experiment it refers to (it isn't high speed in my view), seems to have a genuine problem with how the authors measure the size of the droplets.
I agree with the idea that those willingly not wearing a mask, are selfish.
So there are a number of complicating factors, ranging from the environment it takes place in to the way it is adhered to, that feed into the decision. Or, as I said in the post you quoted, it is not "the obvious decision in all scenarios".
I'm not saying you can't make a moral argument, but should you? Who benefits from that, aside from the people providing the shame?