McT isn't good enough to have played in any of Fergie's title-winning sides, but those days are over. He's played 120 times over 6 years for United. He is, sadly, at the level of Man Utd. Pretty much every single player in the team needs to be upgraded if we are ever going to win the league again, but it's kind of funny saying someone who's played 120 times for a club will never be good enough for that club.
The McFred midfield duo
- Thread starter kouroux
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Probably the logic that despite all of us fans thinking he's shite. We have had 3 managers pick him as a starter, in some cases, ahead of what we would call superior talent. I think this thread should Mctominay Vs Fred because only one of them will start along side FDJ, so the question is which. I think they'll probably end with even playing time.
The bases of being a top-quality midfielder are game intelligence and positional awareness, sadly lacking in both players. If you watch both they have major technical weaknesses. Mct has to take two touches of the ball every time before he makes the pass, he hides during the game, really looking to dictate the play. Fred's passing is limited, too often misplaced and has the same weaknesses as mct. Fred plays with more energy but that's about it.
I'm going to put my neck out here and say Garner if given a chance will be a far better option than either player. He's more suited to the way ETH will want to play, pass and move.
Garner is ready to be given the opportunity from the progress I have seen over the past few years.
I'm going to put my neck out here and say Garner if given a chance will be a far better option than either player. He's more suited to the way ETH will want to play, pass and move.
Garner is ready to be given the opportunity from the progress I have seen over the past few years.
It sure is we need a lot more goals this season. Last season was a disaster.
It's nothing to do with Vinnie Jones or Wimbledon circa 1990. That clearly wasn't the point and I'm surprised you even made it. The issue is teams are fitter than they've ever been, more athletic, and play with greater intensity. Whereas with Donny, I'm not even sure he knows what intensity means.
You've gone for the players apologist argument where conveniently it's everyone else's fault and little to do with his own ability, even though most of our decent footballers have managed to shine at some point in their United careers, even if inconsistently. Let's look at a few recent signings that have played in this horrible environment where you're paid extortionate sums to play for Manchester United and are expected to show some individual quality as well as being part of a team:
Varane - has he been great? Not at all, but he's probably still managed to be our best CB when on the pitch.
Ronaldo - has he enjoyed our service and play? I doubt it but he's still managed to put a few away.
Sancho - has he been great? No, undoubtedly he has struggled to adapt and probably struggled with our lack of interplay. He's still had some good games and looked a footballer.
I'm wondering if the "relying on individual quality" argument should translate as "has no individual quality and we expect others to carry the can for said player and make him look good."
I'd quibble that I don't think Fred's passing is all that limited. Rather, it's the opposite that is the problem - it's too ambitious, and to an extent inconsistent. For good and bad, it's about the mindset with him: Aggressive, ambitious, high-risk. These traits make him unsuited as a defensive midfielder, and as a cog in build-up play machinery. He just doesn't hit the helpful but safe passes consistently. The same traits makes him a great presser, and really a very good contributor once we've got the ball to the oppo third.
Both of them have some qualities and every team needs a "water carrier" or two. I think Fred will get plenty of game time in a slightly more advanced role.
McTominay could do well under ETH, I think he could fit well into a "system" team. It's really hard to judge anyone based on the coaching shambles of the last couple of years. I hope the ETH can get the best out of both of them.
McTominay could do well under ETH, I think he could fit well into a "system" team. It's really hard to judge anyone based on the coaching shambles of the last couple of years. I hope the ETH can get the best out of both of them.
Fred will not be an 8 under ETH, he will hold in front of the back 2.
He isn’t the long term answer but he will be given that opportunity next season while we focus on other areas to improve.
Why do you think so? That has not been a successful role for him in the past, and he does not seem to possess what it requires.
He has high energy and if he can be channeled into doing the simple things and supplemented with a better duo around him then he will suffice for the time being.
Im not saying he is the answer but I believe he will be used by ETH to start with while other areas are focused on.
You don't need - or want - high energy for the midfield anchor position. On the contrary, you want calmness and game-reading ability. Fred is unsuited to that role, temperamentally as well as in terms of skills. "The simple things" is what he doesn't really do, at least not consistently well.
The fact we are even considering either of these as starters shows we got zero ambition
Absolutely McT is well below the standards needed and Fred is sadly our worst Brazilian since Kleberson who plays in midfield and can't pass.
I don't agree with that. Maybe the people around here who write nonsense like "Fred's a Championship level player" should consider why he's starting for Brazil instead of Fabinho. He's a good player. But he's also the sort of player who needs to be put in the right role to be effective. I agree ideally he's not a first XI player (and he's definitely not a no 6), but he is not below the standard for a United player.
We’re cooked if that ends up being true. Fred holding or sitting in front of the back 2 would be an unmitigated disaster, taking Fred’s mobility and engine away from him would leave him with nothing.
Nothing suggests that Fred is a good player since his arrival at Utd. But I think he will flourish under ETH we saw glimpses under Ralf.
Again, I disagree. I think he's been one of our better players over the past couple of seasons, and has quite a few strong performances to his credit. Anyhoo, let's hope he does flourish under EtH.
I do seriously get the feeling that McT will be first choice in Midfield alongside De Jong, if we finally manage to sign him.
Steve McLaren's recent comments, calling him 'a great player who always delivers' and that we don't seem to be seriously linked with anyone other than De Jong, makes me think so.
Who knows, with some decent coaching and a proper game plan to follow, McT might actually become a decent player..??
Oh God, you have a point there don't you. The first paragraph, I mean.
One can always hope, but it's really, really, really hard to envisage McT turning into a good No 6 through better coaching and game plan. It's not like his performance in that role is speculative, we've seen him doing it for two seasons. And how that has looked is that he has an obvious lack of ability to read defensive situations and make good decisions and well-timed interventions, in addition to which his passing is at best mediocre, and he is a downright liability in build-up play also because he fails to position himself to receive the ball. Other than battling spirit and physicality, it's hard to see that he possesses any of the traits you'd want in a good no 6, at a more than fairly average level. Those do not seem to me the sort of shortcomings you could expect to rectify with better coaching and organisation.
I think the standards have fallen so dramatically that we would even consider Fred a good player is a statement to the shit show we have become.
I like Fred, think he has many very good attributes. But we least can agree on that we both think he could become a very valuable player under ETH.
This. I’m a big Fred fan, but a holding midfielder he is not.
Would have been nice to actually quote me, as it was clear your reply was to my post.
Anyway, the initial point made by @TuzlaUnited was that a midfield consisting of Fred, De Jong and Van de Beek would be 'overrun' in the EPL, in which I then replied that I don't believe its true, as they were part of an Ajax team who were physically sound. Yes, it's in the Eridevise, but they did the same thing to English teams in the CL, too.
I also think, the English media constantly overrate the physicality of the EPL, yet when it comes to the CL or even Internationals, you'll often find that England/English teams are constantly overran. Then actually, when you look at teams like Man City, it doesn't scream physicality, in regards to big strong players, but all have stamina and intensity, which was some of the attributes Donny was often praised for before joining United.
Van de Beek may not go onto be good enough for United but this is a player who has made very limited starts for United - occasionally he has done good, occasionally he has been bad. However, I wouldn't personally say this is down to a lack of physicality, and more so from a lack of guidance. I mean, as I explained, even with Pogba, Matic, McTominay and Fred, with the latter being identified as ' one of our physical and aggressive players' by Rangnick, we were often overrun by teams, and to me, a big part of that is down to poor structural and tactical work on the training pitch. We saw little to no difference with our pressing under Rangnick but I'm hoping that can change under ten Hag.
Time will tell, but I can't imagine someone like Van de Beek would have started so many games under ten Hag if he wasn't physically capable, as we know the demands ten Hag puts on his players. We've also seen players like B Silva, Thiago, Jorginho, etc all come to the EPL and adapt. It even took Fred a couple of seasons until he adapted so lets at least give Van de Beek some games consistently before writing him off, especially given he has a manager who, as you said, should be the person that can ''make him look a PL player'', whatever that actually means.
Nothing? Not any of his motm displays in the past few years (esp vs big teams under Ole), or his game-changing goals/assists when our attackers were misfiring during the middle of this past season, or his ability to create chances through pressing and interceptions particularly in the final third? Nothing? Yet he will flourish?
Erik must be a literal magician.
Fred should be used as a box-to-box destroyer, in the same way that he plays for Brazil and that Kante plays for Chelsea. That means that he should be contributing to the attack when he gets forward (as we saw when Rangnick actually played him in that role and he suddenly started getting goals and assists), but not really as a creative midfielder or playmaker. Throughout almost all his time here until Rangnick came in, he was being misused as our main deep playmaker and while he did a better job than people make out he obviously isn't good enough to be playing that role at a team who wants to compete at the top.
I like Fred and think he can absolutely play a role in our starting line-up with the right partner (at least for a season or two while we fix other areas we're weaker in), but if we do sign De Jong I'm not sure if that partnership would work. I haven't watched FDJ enough to see for myself, but from what I hear he might need somebody who is more disciplined in their defensive positioning than Fred is.
I don't get why people say this. Fred passes the ball with his weak foot far more than any other player in the team, and Pogba and Ronaldo are probably the only players who have significantly better quality with their weak foot than Fred has. I think it's because he does use it so much that he's inevitably going to get some wrong, and people just remember those ones.
The good old Ajax argument. I don't find it persuasive when it's suggested or implied that he displayed what is currently lacking in his play within that team. I'd imagine only regular Dutch league watchers have some handle on that and even then you do have a whole host of players from that league that will never excel in top leagues. I think most of the time we're just filling in the blanks because he can't possibly have been as shite. This is probably true but unfortunately it doesn't mean that he was a suitable signing because there is a high propensity to misevaluate players when the competition is poor.
So what do we end up with, a few CL fixtures against good sides and English sides. A tiny sample size to go on that it is easily possible to exaggerate or extrapolate too far. On the one hand that CL run is supposed to have deep meaning and yet the minutes over the last few years do not. They're both fairly small samples but crucially the most recent patch of evidence is the one that correlates with the question of whether VDB is actually good enough for our purposes.
There is no mystery to looking a PL player. Not sure what that remark is even directed at. It simply means..performing. No witchcraft or black magic required. Pull the shirt on, get near people, get on the ball, pass to team mates.
How else am I meant to judge him? In a United side that 1) didn't even play him 2) a side that looked physically inept with/without Van de Beek.
I can understand if it was a one off but they did it against Bayern twice, Spurs twice, Madrid twice, etc. This wasn't exactly a one off, was it?
Funnily enough, based on your last quote, neither one of our players are EPL players then.
I don't know what you do to judge a player, it seems to involve a lot of theorising so it's hard for me to say how you should judge him.How else am I meant to judge him? In a United side that 1) didn't even play him 2) a side that looked physically inept with/without Van de Beek.
I can understand if it was a one off but they did it against Bayern twice, Spurs twice, Madrid twice, etc. This wasn't exactly a one off, was it?
Funnily enough, based on your last quote, neither one of our players are EPL players then.
I give the greatest weighting to the evidence that is most relevant. I want to know whether a player is physically, mentally and technically capable of playing in the PL. I look at said form. That's the basis of my opinion and then the nuance within that is my theory for why but I don't let that supercede the actual performance. I think that's when the woods can't be seen for the trees and player responsibility seems to be lost somewhere within.
You seem to place a lot of weighting on the second part of that process, and chalk up what is lacking to everything except player unsuitability. It's the tactics, style, manager, club. He's got a chance to demonstrate that there may have been some credibility to that now, I'm not gonna be chucking tomatoes at him that's for sure.
I think the last point is really weak. Many of our players have performed. Maybe not last season, maybe not consistently, maybe not to the level we should aspire to be. But they have at some point had good performances. I don't believe you can be seriously inferring that they have all played like VDB during their United career.
You’d be surprised at how good players can look under a brilliant manager.
Not sure its a theory if it has actually happened. Yes, that was with Ajax and unfortunately, he's not been able to transmit that to the EPL but that's not down to a lack of physicality, just more so that he hasn't been quite good enough and also the fact that when he has had ''some good performances'' for us, oftentimes he hardly gets a chance to follow that up.
I mean, I'm not even a massive fan of Van de Beek, but fans constantly come up with rubbish about not being 'physically' ready for the EPL because they paint the EPL to be this mighty tough league but is it really? I wouldn't say so! As I said, players with less physicality than Van de Beek have come over and succeeded. Difference is, teams actually had a plan for those players. As always, we didn't know what to do with Van de Beek when he arrived at United, and the same could apply to many other players who have failed to hit expectations. Pogba and Mata being two, who have recently left the club for free!
I also know you're a big fan of sample size, so it doesn't take a genius to work out that a player who has started 4 games in 1 and a half seasons at United will have less better peerformances than those who have the chance to play every week. You could argue that he doesn't deserve to play, which is fine, but I used the example of Fred not being so good in his first season for us to arguably becoming our most important player. Again, this is not to say Van de Beek will do that, but at least give him a fair shot.
Wow.Thank you for this big and educative answer.I really appreciate.I would love to answer you like you did to me but English is my 4th language.I will try.
People usually understimate grind of EPL, and why are EPL teams are tired at end of the season.With Newcastle we will have top 7.For every club that is 6 home and away hard fecking games.Some players are just not for that.
Imagine Liverpool dressing room after last round...they were so fecking good but someone was better.
EPL at the moment is pinnacle of the football and some players are just no good.And we have so many players like that.
Do you really and honestly think that MF with VDB can chase City to 100 pts ?
Without patronizing you, for someone who speaks English as their fourth language, you have done a great job.
To answer your question in bold, I genuinely don't know but I don't want us to move away from the original point you made.
Will Van de Beek be good enough for a United side who wants to challenge? I'm not sure
Does Van de Beek have the physicality required in the Premier League? In my opinion, yes he does.
Thank you, and you do not patronize me,I just wish we can speak on same level. I am just glad people answer with facts, like you did to me.
To cut story short, I do not think DVB is EPL player.I hope that I am wrong. Next season will give answer for both of us.
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Are you saying Fred's left foot is his weak foot? No I don't think so. His strong foot is left, and he prefers passing with his left, which is often good and sometime deadly. He seldom pass with his right foot. But on the other hand, he likes to shoot with his right foot, which is very strange, and his right foot shot is better than his left foot shot, another very strange phenomenon.
First bolded is right and second bolded is wrong.
He's the type to use both feet according to the situation i.e where it's best for momentum, angle etc, which is why he passes with his right a lot, well at least definitely more regularly than your average player. Unfortunately, it's the execution that is sometimes lacking.
If United don't sign a holding midfielder, this will be ETH with McFred:
You mean when we don't sign a holding midfielder
I'm trying to be optimistic.
Yes his right foot is his weak foot, and he uses it far more than often than anyone else in the team use their weak foot except for Varane (who I just found is even higher). It's obvious to the eyes, and FBref even has stats which show it.
Percentage of passes played using their weak foot:
Varane - 41%
Fred - 29%
Greenwood - 23%
Ronaldo - 16%
Lindelof - 16%
Maguire - 14%
Matic - 14%
Pogba - 12%
McTominay - 7%
If you want actual hard numbers compared to the others in midfield (per 90 minutes):
Fred averages 17.35 passes with his right foot
Matic averages 9.9 passes with his right foot
Pogba averages 5.73 passes with his left foot
McTominay averages 2.26 passes with his left foot
I honestly don't understand why the 'Fred only passes with his left foot' thing came along. There's not many players around who make more passes with their weak foot, and I never hear these complaints about our other midfielders (especially McTominay who actually is incredibly one footed).
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A few of the squad aren’t technically proficient for a PL top half team,Maguire’s Lindelöf, but compensate with their work rate. McTominay is a grafter who’d be more effective playing route one football.